Family Honour And Dishonour In The UK

[TAK]

delicate issues when it comes to daughters but to what extent should personal freedom be allowed?

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/stor...-trial-begins/

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It should be allowed in line with the laws and sensibilities of the country of topic. But then I suspect you already know that and that's not really the purpose of posting the thread. So spit it out. What's the REAL issue?

[akheR]

Should open a thread dedicated to the ills of British who happen to be of Pak. ancestry, seem to be a hit on PP.

About the concept of "honour", it's a cocktail of regression, tribalism and misogyny.

[mani1]

Originally Posted by akheR Should open a thread dedicated to the ills of British who happen to be of Pak. ancestry, seem to be a hit on PP. About the concept of "honour", it's a cocktail of regression, tribalism and misogyny.

lol I read recently there was an honour killing in Belgium of Pak ancestry, so it isn't just Brit Paks.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/305893/b...ily-to-prison/

[KingKhanWC]

I don't understand why people are so hooked up on this family honour business? As long as you're happy who gives a damn what other people say? Most of the time they have their own issues hidden away. It's a bit dumb hurting your own child and then spending years behind bars over what others might think.

Having said that I can't understand these kids who over a bit of lust bring misery to their family. As long as you love your parents and they are sensible people why not just work with them to find a husband/wife?

I was watching a film the other day about a Muslim Pakistani Scottish kid falling in 'love' with a Catholic Irish woman. It's on iplayer and worth a watch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode.../Ae_Fond_Kiss/

This dude understood the fragile nature of his family. He understood how hard they worked to bring him up and provided him with everything he needs. They even found him a pretty wife. I won't spoil it but he had to chose between his family and a woman he believes he's in love with. It's a massive gamble to take because his girlfriend could just move on in a year, two or four and he would have ruined his relationship with his family.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by mani1 lol I read recently there was an honour killing in Belgium of Pak ancestry, so it isn't just Brit Paks. http://tribune.com.pk/story/305893/b...ily-to-prison/

And guess where we generally come from...

More seriously, there was also 2-3 days ago a Pak. guy who killed his local (Belgian) girlfriend, see here (Google translator )...

Quite pitiful that the Pak. diaspora manifests the same stigmas wherever it goes.

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC I don't understand why people are so hooked up on this family honour business? As long as you're happy who gives a damn what other people say? Most of the time they have their own issues hidden away. It's a bit dumb hurting your own child and then spending years behind bars over what others might think. Having said that I can't understand these kids who over a bit of lust bring misery to their family. As long as you love your parents and they are sensible people why not just work with them to find a husband/wife? I was watching a film the other day about a Muslim Pakistani Scottish kid falling in 'love' with a Catholic Irish woman. It's on iplayer and worth a watch. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode.../Ae_Fond_Kiss/ This dude understood the fragile nature of his family. He understood how hard they worked to bring him up and provided him with everything he needs. They even found him a pretty wife. I won't spoil it but he had to chose between his family and a woman he believes he's in love with. It's a massive gamble to take because his girlfriend could just move on in a year, two or four and he would have ruined his relationship with his family.

Totally agree!

But the parents fail in the correct education, if they were present as they should have the children wouldn't even think of playing Romeo and Juliet here and there.

[mani1]

[QUOTE=akheR;4831540]And guess where we generally come from...

More seriously, there was also 2-3 days ago a Pak. guy who killed his local (Belgian) girlfriend, see here (Google translator )...

Quite pitiful that the Pak. diaspora manifests the same stigmas wherever it goes.

Too true unfortunately.

Are there many Pakistanis in Belgium if so what area/s are they based in.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by mani1 Too true unfortunately. Are there many Pakistanis in Belgium if so what area/s are they based in.

TBH the case you're talking about is quite old and the only I can think of, it's just that the news about it come every 6 months for the reasons surrounding it ("Islam", "honour killing", ...), quite logical as Pakistanis are only few thousands in the country (mainly in Brussels and Antwerpen) so they can't make their show every week.

[Derek Randall]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC I don't understand why people are so hooked up on this family honour business? As long as you're happy who gives a damn what other people say? Most of the time they have their own issues hidden away. It's a bit dumb hurting your own child and then spending years behind bars over what others might think. Having said that I can't understand these kids who over a bit of lust bring misery to their family. As long as you love your parents and they are sensible people why not just work with them to find a husband/wife? I was watching a film the other day about a Muslim Pakistani Scottish kid falling in 'love' with a Catholic Irish woman. It's on iplayer and worth a watch. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode.../Ae_Fond_Kiss/ This dude understood the fragile nature of his family. He understood how hard they worked to bring him up and provided him with everything he needs. They even found him a pretty wife. I won't spoil it but he had to chose between his family and a woman he believes he's in love with. It's a massive gamble to take because his girlfriend could just move on in a year, two or four and he would have ruined his relationship with his family.

Very good post I totally agree

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Flipping this on the head...what if there was no family honour? Maybe it would make it easier for parents to abandon kids to the system where they might get abused due to lack of genuine parental care?

Perhaps this is the point which TAK is trying to raise?

[chacha kashmiri]

TAK you love british asian issues, you're wasting your time on facist forums, you need to become a local councillor or a women rights activist

There's obviously a balance that needs to be struck between honour killing and letting 12 years old roam the street for a fix

[James]

Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri or a women rights activist

Why do you not like girls?

[chacha kashmiri]

Originally Posted by James Why do you not like girls?

That's a bit of a presumptuous statement.

I don't like people who suddenly become animal rights activists or womens rights only when talking about muslims.

But when at the pub, listening to andy gray or generally how they look at women, become quite contradictory to the views they spout.

[mani1]

Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri That's a bit of a presumptuous statement. I don't like people who suddenly become animal rights activists or womens rights only when talking about muslims. But when at the pub, listening to andy gray or generally how they look at women, become quite contradictory to the views they spout.

Lol this is very common were I'm from amongst the indigenous Christian population as they like refering to themselves as usually only on local Papers or local news websites as they don't have the balls to say it in person.

[chacha kashmiri]

Originally Posted by mani1 Lol this is very common were I'm from amongst the indigenous Christian population as they like refering to themselves as usually only on local Papers or local news websites as they don't have the balls to say it in person.

Islamophobia is just a acceptable form of blatant racism against people of a different skin colour which has been in britain and other countries since immigrants were invited over.

I know lots of people that are interested in women's rights and animal rights, and they haven't yet mentioned these topics in relation to Muslims.

Honour killing is normally associated with muslims

Me lusting over a beautiful women dressed in miniskirt in a bar is no way wrong..and people who find that wrong and talk about dignity in that case is STUPID!!!!!!!!

Women's rights activists would not agree with you

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by James Why do you not like girls?

It's quite a serious topic in light of the current national headlines in the British media. I'm not sure a flippant remark is appropriate all things considered.

[James]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat It's quite a serious topic in light of the current national headlines in the British media. I'm not sure a flippant remark is appropriate all things considered.

It was actually a serious question, and in response to somebody else. This has now been cleared up.

[chacha kashmiri]

Originally Posted by James It was actually a serious question, and in response to somebody else. This has now been cleared up.

Apart from accusing everyone whose not a woman's right activist of not liking women.

[Daniyal99]

Everyone has freedom, however it is your choice in how you follow your life. You follow your family choice if your okay with that, or you follow you own choice, it may be ok for your family or not. How I see it is if I get married to a Muslim girl I'm okay I guess.

[IgnitedMind]

Most idiotic incredibly stone aged concept..and to top that ...in our part of the world...SEXIST!!!

[James]

I know lots of people that are interested in women's rights and animal rights, and they haven't yet mentioned these topics in relation to Muslims.

[mani1]

Originally Posted by James I know lots of people that are interested in women's rights and animal rights, and they haven't yet mentioned these topics in relation to Muslims.

Of course they are I was referring to supporters of a certain political party and similar other groups.

[IgnitedMind]

Me dictating what a women should do, should not do..and how her actions are related to family honor is what requires attention..

Me lusting over a beautiful women dressed in miniskirt in a bar is no way wrong..and people who find that wrong and talk about dignity in that case is STUPID!!!!!!!!

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by navroks123 Me dictating what a women should do, should not do..and how her actions are related to family honor is what requires attention.. Me lusting over a beautiful women dressed in miniskirt in a bar is no way wrong..and people who find that wrong and talk about dignity in that case is STUPID!!!!!!!!

I suppose it depends on what you mean by lusting.

[IgnitedMind]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC I suppose it depends on what you mean by lusting.

As long as I do not make her uncomfortable or do anthing to her.....looking at a girl and thinking "things" is normal and girls should not be questioned about their dignity in that case because of her dress and males looking at her..

Many people do...if a girl wearns something that does not fall under family honor category...people find that false...that is why I see many people think women are stripped of her "dignity" in that western world...

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by navroks123 As long as I do not make her uncomfortable or do anthing to her.....looking at a girl and thinking "things" is normal and girls should not be questioned about their dignity in that case because of her dress and males looking at her.. Many people do...if a girl wearns something that does not fall under family honor category...people find that false...that is why I see many people think women are stripped of her "dignity" in that western world...

Again it all depends on what is 'things'. I'm not talking about culture but a general view. Some girls might find it insulting/uncomfortable for men to look and think 'things'. I would if a man did that to me. Personally I would either walk away or walk over for a chat first but that's just me.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by navroks123 As long as I do not make her uncomfortable or do anthing to her.....looking at a girl and thinking "things" is normal and girls should not be questioned about their dignity in that case because of her dress and males looking at her.. Many people do...if a girl wearns something that does not fall under family honor category...people find that false...that is why I see many people think women are stripped of her "dignity" in that western world...

I don't want to be rude so I'll use a general example.

People who say its ok to lust and think 'things' about girls don't like it when other men do those same exact things to their mothers, sisters and daughters. hypocrisy much?

[IgnitedMind]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 I don't want to be rude so I'll use a general example. People who say its ok to lust and think 'things' about girls don't like it when other men do those same exact things to their mothers, sisters and daughters. hypocrisy much?

eh...what rubbish? No... I am pretty sure many people think many things when my mother and sister walk on the streets...I just think my sister is attractive and leave it at that....My sister is a human and she likes to attract opposite sex too..nothing wring!!!....unless people do do anything to my mother and sister with out their consent...I do not care...and if it is with their consent..and then its none of my bussiness!!

[Daniyal99]

Lowkey : Muslim Rapper on women



I respect Lowkey alot

[kingusama92]

Signs of poor parenting.

I don't understand how one restores their honour by killing their child.

Marrying your child to someone by force is not allowed in Islam. Obviously, this part goes over the parents' head doesn't it?

[munda_khi]

i think this discussion is going towards what the basic issue is. why female is considered to be the holder of family honour. did any of us ever hear any incident where somebody kill there son because he is having an affair.

[munda_khi]

Originally Posted by munda_khi why female is considered to be the holder of family honour. did any of us ever hear any incident where somebody kill there son because he is having an affair.

i like to ask these question again.

certainly honour killing has nothing to do with islam. even if we look from shariah point of view, which may some of us disagree, punishment for having sex outside marriage is same for both sexes. then why only women are killed for that. its purely a tribal primitive concept just bringing in religion to hide behind.

[Justcrazy]

Women must have certain rights , and Islam does upheld them. A women cannot be married against her wishes. It is wrong. It must be not allowed.

[TAK]

As for my personal life as you seem quite determined to make this personal, i don't date women as i do not see the point of being with women simply for physical pleasure. I think women should be respected and only touched by their husbands.

oh cacha we would never ever have guessed

[James]

Of course sexism is a personal thing.

Angsty navel-gazing, half-baked repression of the libido, sexual frustration and an overarching victim mentality. All the telltale signs of male misogyny. Out of the textbook in fact.

And again our input is traced back to our satanic Western jackboots. Will this be accompanied by more paper-thin accusations of racism and Islamophobia? (RE Robert)

Ultimately, there is always going to be a correlation between having no experience of/with women, and the view that it is the girl's fault when she is raped by groomers and taxi drivers.

[chacha kashmiri]

Originally Posted by James Of course sexism is a personal thing. Angsty navel-gazing, half-baked repression of the libido, sexual frustration and an overarching victim mentality. All the telltale signs of male misogyny. Out of the textbook in fact. And again our input is traced back to our satanic Western jackboots. Will this be accompanied by more paper-thin accusations of racism and Islamophobia? (RE Robert) Ultimately, there is always going to be a correlation between having no experience of/with women, and the view that it is the girl's fault when she is raped by groomers and taxi drivers.

I accused robert of prejudice, not racism, it's nice of you to stick up for your friend and try and do some label throwing yourself.

The whole post you just posted is laced with venom and i'm not going to denigrate to your level.

[Markhor]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...r-7577031.html

Two-thirds of young British Asians believe families should live according to the concept of “honour”, a new poll suggests. According to the survey for the BBC's Panorama programme, 18% of the 500 people questioned felt certain behaviour by a woman which could affect her family's honour was justification for physical punishment. Such behaviour included disobeying her father, and wanting to leave an existing or pre-arranged marriage, the BBC reported. The research, carried out for the broadcaster by ComRes, quizzed young Asians living in Britain between the ages of 16 and 34. It found 69% agreed that families should live according to honour. This figure rose to 75% among young men, compared with 63% of young women, it was reported. Only 3% said there was ever a justification for so-called "honour killings". This rose to 6% among the young Asian men surveyed, compared with 1% of the women. A survey of police forces by the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation (IKWRO) in November found there were almost eight incidences of honour crimes a day, it was reported, although 13 of 52 forces did not supply the charity with a breakdown. Nazir Afzal, of the Crown Prosecution Service, said the true figure of honour killings is unknown, and could be between 10 and 12 a year in Britain. Mr Afzal, who said there were 10,000 forced marriages in the UK every year, told the broadcaster: "Forced marriage is the earthquake and what's followed is a tsunami of domestic abuse, sexual abuse, child protection issues, suicide and murder. "If we can tackle forced marriage then we can prevent all these other things from happening."

I do not support the concept. A good parent should allow their daughter to get an education, to ensure she maintains good company and works with their daughter regarding marriage. It should not be enforced on her, the daughter should have a right to choose. However it is a real issue, some families are rather shady and god knows what can happen to the female should they disobey their family.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by Markhor http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...r-7577031.html I do not support the concept. A good parent should allow their daughter to get an education, to ensure she maintains good company and works with their daughter regarding marriage. It should not be enforced on her, the daughter should have a right to choose. However it is a real issue, some families are rather shady and god knows what can happen to the female should they disobey their family.

According to that article while two thirds support the concept of honour in family, only 3% said there was any justification for honour killing. There is still clearly work to be done but beyond the sensationalism the picture isn't as grim as is sometimes portrayed.

[the Great Khan]

How many on here have daughters?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri You're trying to make a very complex issue very simple by simply charactertising as either the young girls were innocent angels groomed by predators looking for easy white prey to pass around their asian cousins or the case of it being their own fault because they were on drugs and dressed much older then their age. The line is somewhere between the two and i have never said girls were the problem. It's due to their tuteage, the lack of care they were given and their own dependence on drugs..

No, it's due to paedophiles who cannot control their urges to rape children.

The state of dress and/or intoxication of underage girls, and whether or not they were 'innocent angels' is totally irrelevant. These men know right from wrong and they chose wrong again, and again, and again.

Originally Posted by the Great Khan How many on here have daughters?

Yes. I also have grandaughters and grandnieces. Fortunately they are all protected by a strong family structure.

[TAK]

Originally Posted by Robert No, it's due to paedophiles who cannot control their urges to rape children. The state of dress and/or intoxication of underage girls, and whether or not they were 'innocent angels' is totally irrelevant. These men know right from wrong and they chose wrong again, and again, and again.

one set of people in this case were children the other adults

the idea of apportioning blame to children is quite replusive

some on here are though

[James]

Good to see the figure is so low. But for this to happen even once more, anywhere, is the kind of cultural phenomenon that I just can't get my head around. Why would you ever kill a member of your own family? I agree that the media exaggerate things, but that is their standard condition. In reality, there is still much work to be done.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by James Good to see the figure is so low. But for this to happen even once more, anywhere, is the kind of cultural phenomenon that I just can't get my head around. Why would you ever kill a member of your own family? I agree that the media exaggerate things, but that is their standard condition. In reality, there is still much work to be done.

Why do jealous boyfriends throw acid on their exe's when they find another man? People do unthinkable things to protect their "honour".

The challenge for the developing nations like India for example, is to get the message across that this sort of protection of family honour is not acceptable in this day and age.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by James Good to see the figure is so low. But for this to happen even once more, anywhere, is the kind of cultural phenomenon that I just can't get my head around. Why would you ever kill a member of your own family? I agree that the media exaggerate things, but that is their standard condition. In reality, there is still much work to be done.

You come from an individualist society, if you were born in the Victorian era you wouldn't have thought like that : they don't kill a "member of their family" but "a member of their community who betrayed the whole community", so it's their responsibility - their debt, if you want - towards the whole group to give them the honour back ; there's a process of objectivization going on which escapes to the Western psyche.

Immigrant communities all over the world are generally from the labour force, which is characterized by a communitarian outlook (that's a sociological rule), and therefore every ill which is parallel to it, the major being the non-existence of the idea of individuals (with de facto its freedoms.)

But, well, if Italians who went to the USA weren't in that group, we probably wouldn't have the Godfathers and the Sopranos, so there are positive points there too.

[90MPH]

Im glad this family is being taken to court. Maybe this will make some people think twice before behaving this way.

Lets not be delusional, a lot of people are still being forced (pressurized) into marriages they do not want, especially the Pakistani community in Britain. I personally know friends/family in unhappy marriages. Hopefully the next generation will not behave this way.

[Bilal7]

Question to the liberals here:

If everyone followed your idea of female freedom, would things like rape, cheating, perverse minds, under-aged sex, late-late marriages, abortions, etc increase or decrease?

Just to clear up about the place of women in Islam:

Women can socialize with men on a professional level if she is modestly dressed, they have every right to refuse a marriage, can own big businesses and work in high status jobs and Muslim women in the past have even commanded whole armies. So saying that dressing modestly limits their potential or abilities is pretty dumb.

Another question:

Do people really want to go back to the morals and modesty that the ancient greeks and romans had? That really went well for the fairer sex!

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Question to the liberals here: If everyone followed your idea of female freedom, would things like rape, cheating, perverse minds, under-aged sex, late-late marriages, abortions, etc increase or decrease?

Turning that round, d you think that the incidences of rape, cheating, paedophilia etc. are lower in societies where women are constrained to dress modestly? Or does it all go on under the surface, unreported to the Police?

[Kalari]

Robert has a point. "Unreported to the police" - this is the key. Liberal societies will always show a high official rate of offenses mostly because victims and their kin have the awareness and are encouraged to report offenses committed against them.

In places like the sub-continent, we still stigmatize the victim, not the perpetrator. So in most cases, the victims stay silent, and we continue to believe in our social and moral 'superiority'.

[Kalari]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Question to the liberals here: If everyone followed your idea of female freedom, would things like rape, cheating, perverse minds, under-aged sex, late-late marriages, abortions, etc increase or decrease?

Fair question. But status quo is no reason for us to stop trying to improve our living standards. Perhaps, offenses that you have cited may not decrease. But when we grant a freedom, any freedom, there are mechanisms in place that monitor it. So if a woman has the same rights as the man in a system, any offenses against her will be punished. When punishments are guaranteed, there will be some drop in crimes against women.

A criminal remains a criminal in any set-up. The onus is on our society to punish the perpetrator and not dispense moral judgement.

[Kalari]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Another question: Do people really want to go back to the morals and modesty that the ancient greeks and romans had? That really went well for the fairer sex!

I hope no one is aspiring for the ancient greek/roman morality in today's world. Especially, in the sub-continent where we already have our own twisted morality to deal with.

[PakPrince]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Question to the liberals here: If everyone followed your idea of female freedom, would things like rape, cheating, perverse minds, under-aged sex, late-late marriages, abortions, etc increase or decrease? Just to clear up about the place of women in Islam: Women can socialize with men on a professional level if she is modestly dressed, they have every right to refuse a marriage, can own big businesses and work in high status jobs and Muslim women in the past have even commanded whole armies. So saying that dressing modestly limits their potential or abilities is pretty dumb. Another question: Do people really want to go back to the morals and modesty that the ancient greeks and romans had? That really went well for the fairer sex!

the reasonm why there is a higher rate in the west is because ...women here dont report assaults, rape etc because of the point of this thread. Yes Honor. rates are very high in the subcontinent if all were reported

[Random Aussie]

That so generous you allow the women to socialise with men IF they dress modestly.

No idea if I am a liberal or not, but in places where women have their own freedom, I note a lot less of them tend to get stoned to death, or have acid thrown in their faces or be killed by their own family for disobedience.

[James]

Originally Posted by Random Aussie That so generous you allow the women to socialise with men IF they dress modestly. No idea if I am a liberal or not, but in places where women have their own freedom, I note a lot less of them tend to get stoned to death, or have acid thrown in their faces or be killed by their own family for disobedience.

This!

I always find it amazing that people want women to cover head to toe, the main reason being that men would ogle, fantasise and do bad things if women dressed however they wanted.

I wonder how they came to this conclusion.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by James This! I always find it amazing that people want women to cover head to toe, the main reason being that men would ogle, fantasise and do bad things if women dressed however they wanted. I wonder how they came to this conclusion.

No clue. Womens' dress doesn't make the blindest bit of difference to the way men behave.

Real men respect women; indecent men harrass and rape.

[Ruri]

Originally Posted by Robert No clue. Womens' dress doesn't make the blindest bit of difference to the way men behave. Real men respect women; indecent men harrass and rape.

Correctly said.

I really want an unattached muslim woman to comment on this. A lot of the posters who seem to support the controlling of women are men, and when you can be the person in power, why will you go against it?

Women have rights, and no, I think Fanny Hill was completely stupid as a person (Like her sudden supposed repentance and reconciliation with Charles), but somehow every normal woman who dates or sees other men is stigmatized. They should have the right to decide who they like and want to spend their time with.

I saw a documentary a few years back on muslim men and women, and its left a bit of a sour taste. And how women who have had sex before marriage were stigmatized and for men it wasn't an issue. Admittedly, documentaries, despite the tag of being supposedly object, tend to be biased and a bit exaggerated. But from comments here, and other such stories, it's disheartening.

Both of the links provided have been of women falling in love, and living with another getting shot/threatened.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Ruri Correctly said.

Sure, an act of rape is entirely the fault of the rapist.

If the rapist says "She was asking for it by wearing that miniskirt" he is making an excuse for his bestial behaviour.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Robert No clue. Womens' dress doesn't make the blindest bit of difference to the way men behave. Real men respect women; indecent men harrass and rape.

Women dressed with little clothes is used to sell, the term 'sex sells' is there because men like to look at women who are dressed showing off their body and looks in a way which turns men on.

Sexual assaults are more common against women who dress scantily.

To suggest women's dress doesn't make a difference to how men behave is laughable.

[PakPrince]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Women dressed with little clothes is used to sell, the term 'sex sells' is there because men like to look at women who are dressed showing off their body and looks in a way which turns men on. Sexual assaults are more common against women who dress scantily. To suggest women's dress doesn't make a difference to how men behave is laughable.

then why is the rates of sexual assault one of the highest in the subcontinent eventhough it is estimated that less than 20% of incidents are reported

Delhi is considered the rape capital of the world eventhough it is generally conservative

in any case its the fault of the rapist not the woman regardless of her dress. Do you agree with this?

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by James This! I always find it amazing that people want women to cover head to toe, the main reason being that men would ogle, fantasise and do bad things if women dressed however they wanted. I wonder how they came to this conclusion.

[James]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC

LOL good cartoon. Yeah it is indeed a circular argument, depends what kind of culture you have been brought up in and the beliefs that you hold. IMO there are decent men and indecent men, that's it. Good parenting and education of boys holds the key to men respecting women in their adult lives. I'm personally not bothered how a woman dresses, it is her decision. Only by talking to them, whether they wear bikini, skinny jeans or hijab do you find out if they're worth knowing. To judge people's personalities on their wearing of any of these, which I know both sides of the argument can be guilty of doing, is pretty shallow and dreadful.

[chacha kashmiri]

Originally Posted by Random Aussie No idea if I am a liberal or not, but in places where women have their own freedom, I note a lot less of them tend to get stoned to death, or have acid thrown in their faces or be killed by their own family for disobedience.

There was a women recently attacked with acid in salford in a racist attack, so i would concur that acid throwing isn't only an eastern trait.
I suppose being called ho's in music videos and having to go on slut walks to reclaim the word slut is much morally liberating.

As for being killed by your own family for disobediance. There's alot of rumours princess diana was killed just for being in love with a muslim, as a brown muslim man could not possibly enter the royal family.

Going back to the debate over women's dressing, it's a choice completely down to the woman over whether she wants to wear clothes or not but it is a choice which she should be afforded with no pressure from glamour magazines, film directors or advertising,

[Robert]

Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri As for being killed by your own family for disobediance. There's alot of rumours princess diana was killed just for being in love with a muslim, as a brown muslim man could not possibly enter the royal family.

Yes, but only a grieving father, a young conspiracy theorist or an older person of uncritical thought would believe such a rumour.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by munda_khi i like to ask these question again. certainly honour killing has nothing to do with islam. even if we look from shariah point of view, which may some of us disagree, punishment for having sex outside marriage is same for both sexes. then why only women are killed for that. its purely a tribal primitive concept just bringing in religion to hide behind.

That is just how the sub-continent works. Definitely not the fault of any religion.

Originally Posted by Robert Turning that round, d you think that the incidences of rape, cheating, paedophilia etc. are lower in societies where women are constrained to dress modestly? Or does it all go on under the surface, unreported to the Police?

If you are talking about the sub-continent, then sorry to say but you're right. If you are talking about all modest societies, then you're wrong. I know a lot about the middle-east and I can say without a doubt that incidents of rape are at an extreme low. The strict laws mean that men would never have the courage to even think of such an act.

Originally Posted by Random Aussie That so generous you allow the women to socialise with men IF they dress modestly. No idea if I am a liberal or not, but in places where women have their own freedom, I note a lot less of them tend to get stoned to death, or have acid thrown in their faces or be killed by their own family for disobedience.

Yeah they don't get abused in those ways, those are 'old-fashioned' People in 'free' societies have more innovative ways to abuse women.
The bolded: I did not make these rules, they were made by God and are stated in the Bible and Quran.


Funny how people blame that Islamic societies have brain-washed their women into believing that they should dress modestly. Do they not see the western converts to Islam choose to dress that way?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 If you are talking about the sub-continent, then sorry to say but you're right. If you are talking about all modest societies, then you're wrong. I know a lot about the middle-east and I can say without a doubt that incidents of rape are at an extreme low. The strict laws mean that men would never have the courage to even think of such an act.

Fair comment. I have known two Asian women who were molested as children and adults by men within their families. I don't know any MidEastern women so can't comment.

Does this strict law mean that the murder rate in Mideastern nations is very low too?

Funny how people blame that Islamic societies have brain-washed their women into believing that they should dress modestly. Do they not see the western converts to Islam choose to dress that way?

Good point well made. Perhaps they feel safer when dressing modestly. It may be an issue of personal confidence.

Plenty of Western women are confident to wear skimpy clothes without fear of attack, and don't get attacked because of their strong and positive body language. I know women who could walk through Soho at 2 a.m. in a bikini and stilletoes and nobody would touch them because they look so strong in themselves.

Whereas covered-up women who look vulnerable risk attack by a would-be rapist. This is why some rapists will even attack grannies - they go for the weak and vulnerable ones, not the strong sexy ones.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Women dressed with little clothes is used to sell, the term 'sex sells' is there because men like to look at women who are dressed showing off their body and looks in a way which turns men on. Sexual assaults are more common against women who dress scantily. To suggest women's dress doesn't make a difference to how men behave is laughable.

It makes a difference... But two wrongs don't make a right.

[Bilal7]

Another hypothetical position to consider:

(I heard this somewhere, can't remember where) Two identical sisters are walking in an alleyway, late at night. One wearing a burqa and the other wearing immodest clothing. In that alleyway are a group of classless men. Who do you guys think will get molested, out of the two sisters?

[shan]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Another hypothetical position to consider: (I heard this somewhere, can't remember where) Two identical sisters are walking in an alleyway, late at night. One wearing a burqa and the other wearing immodest clothing. In that alleyway are a group of classless men. Who do you guys think will get molested, out of the two sisters?

Zakir Naik theories doesnt make sense in real world. Both will get molested by classless men. Do you think no one get raped in Saudi Arabia? More likely hardly anyone report it. Many rape cases are not reported in western countries now imagine in conservative socities.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by shan Zakir Naik theories doesnt make sense in real world. Both will get molested by classless men. Do you think no one get raped in Saudi Arabia? More likely hardly anyone report it. Many rape cases are not reported in western countries now imagine in conservative socities.

When we get beyond people using these issues for political agendas then we can start to look at ways to eradicate them. Honour killings are by products of an ancient mentality which has no place in the modern age. It's an unfortunate part of immigration that when people arrive from developing countries they sometimes bring some residue of it with them.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by shan Zakir Naik theories doesnt make sense in real world. Both will get molested by classless men. Do you think no one get raped in Saudi Arabia? More likely hardly anyone report it. Many rape cases are not reported in western countries now imagine in conservative socities.

Do you have any knowledge whatsoever or are you just generalising all Muslim societies? Rape and all the other issues relating to it is very low in the middle-east as a whole and is non-existent in Saudi Arabia in particular. It's got to do more with the strict strict laws that keep all the classless men in line.

@ Robert- yes murders are also very low there and crime in general too. So you can't use the 'no one reports it' line because what's stopping people from reporting other crime?

At the end of the day, I try to learn the good practices from each culture and shun the bad ones.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Do you have any knowledge whatsoever or are you just generalising all Muslim societies? Rape and all the other issues relating to it is very low in the middle-east as a whole and is non-existent in Saudi Arabia in particular. It's got to do more with the strict strict laws that keep all the classless men in line. @ Robert- yes murders are also very low there and crime in general too. So you can't use the 'no one reports it' line because what's stopping people from reporting other crime? At the end of the day, I try to learn the good practices from each culture and shun the bad ones.

Do you know that as a fact?

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI Do you know that as a fact?

Yes I do. Bahrain's is relatively high for some reason but overall it's quite low.

[TAK]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI Do you know that as a fact?

don't saudi's have a bit of a penchant for raping their maids?

[boomboomcheema]

^ Both .

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by boomboomcheema ^ Both .

choose one. Thats the point I'm trying to put across.

[Saudi]

Pretty stupid arguments here from Bilal and KKWC. For one thing you're both using false dichotomy, i.e burka vs immodest clothes. This does not a sound argument make. There is a whole spectrum of clothing that western women wear that is objectively speaking quite modest without being a body bag. Try and come up with an argument that isn't logically fallacious to begin with.

Secondly there exist gay men and gay rapists as well presumably. I've not noticed anything about "modest" clothing for men if avoidance of rape is the concern here. Not to mention that the scenario being put forward, i.e shady alley at night is hardly the most common social avenues for people.

Also the tone of some the people here is just facepalm worthy. Women "can" do this and they "can" attend meetings etc. Honestly, I've met people from villages who are less misogynistic.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by Saudi Pretty stupid arguments here from Bilal and KKWC. For one thing you're both using false dichotomy, i.e burka vs immodest clothes. This does not a sound argument make. There is a whole spectrum of clothing that western women wear that is objectively speaking quite modest without being a body bag. Try and come up with an argument that isn't logically fallacious to begin with.

If you use your brain you would realise the picture I posted was a bit of fun. I have not bought the burka into the debate.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by Saudi Pretty stupid arguments here from Bilal and KKWC. For one thing you're both using false dichotomy, i.e burka vs immodest clothes. This does not a sound argument make. There is a whole spectrum of clothing that western women wear that is objectively speaking quite modest without being a body bag. Try and come up with an argument that isn't logically fallacious to begin with. Secondly there exist gay men and gay rapists as well presumably. I've not noticed anything about "modest" clothing for men if avoidance of rape is the concern here. Not to mention that the scenario being put forward, i.e shady alley at night is hardly the most common social avenues for people. Also the tone of some the people here is just facepalm worthy. Women "can" do this and they "can" attend meetings etc. Honestly, I've met people from villages who are less misogynistic.

Pretty stupid arguments by you too. Just like there is a whole spectrum of clothes that western women wear, the same holds true for women from the east, for example the shalwaar kameez with the dupatta and just wearing the hijab. If you don't want to go to an extreme of one side why would you be hypocritical and go extreme on the other side?

For your second stupid argument: there is a reason that Gays are not allowed/suppressed in some societies, but this is not the topic of discussion.

The alleyway example was just an example, seeing how you didn't answer it, it served its purpose.

[Saudi]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Pretty stupid arguments by you too. Just like there is a whole spectrum of clothes that western women wear, the same holds true for women from the east, for example the shalwaar kameez with the dupatta and just wearing the hijab. If you don't want to go to an extreme of one side why would you be hypocritical and go extreme on the other side?

, you were the one who contrasted the two extremes,i.e burka and immodest clothing, not me. I presume you don't know a lot about logical fallacies because your argument was a textbook example of one. I just tried to tell you about your narrow way of thinking in extremes.

For your second stupid argument: there is a reason that Gays are not allowed/suppressed in some societies, but this is not the topic of discussion.

As far as I know most societies disallow/supress rapists and female molesters too. Pretty lousy rebuttal this. And my point absolutely is relevant; its only fair to use the same arguments you use to defend the use of hijab for men as well.

The alleyway example was just an example, seeing how you didn't answer it, it served its purpose.

Please read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

The only purpose your question served was to invalidate your argument. Try again.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 That is just how the sub-continent works. Definitely not the fault of any religion. If you are talking about the sub-continent, then sorry to say but you're right. If you are talking about all modest societies, then you're wrong. I know a lot about the middle-east and I can say without a doubt that incidents of rape are at an extreme low. The strict laws mean that men would never have the courage to even think of such an act. Yeah they don't get abused in those ways, those are 'old-fashioned' People in 'free' societies have more innovative ways to abuse women. The bolded: I did not make these rules, they were made by God and are stated in the Bible and Quran. Funny how people blame that Islamic societies have brain-washed their women into believing that they should dress modestly. Do they not see the western converts to Islam choose to dress that way?

It's not Islams fault....

But "scripted" Islam is partly to blame.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI It's not Islams fault.... But "scripted" Is partly to blame.

Sorry, didn't get your point.