Reading Quran at Someone's Death [Khatam, etc]

[saeed-sohail]

When someone passes away we have tradition of having khatam(dua) on days 4 and 40.What happens is that you invite people of your neighbourhood and relatives and a molvi sahab who do the dua and food gets served.
Last week it was yearly khatam of my beloved grandmother(daadi) saahiba where our relatives from bradford and leeds got invited and there were few neighbours there aswell.
After the food we were having tea when one of my uncle started having a go at us cousins that we did not recite enough or else we would have had 40 Qurans instead of 38.
More to follow.

[saeed-sohail]

Me and one of my cousins argued that yes reciting holy Quran is important but what was read was enough as sawaab of readind one aaya can be enough for some one,s bakhshish.
And its more important to understand the meaning of the Quran.
I have always been uncomfortable with these khatams for following reasons.
1)you invite people for food who dont even have a clue of the whole meaning of this.
2).When molvi asks how much you have read and then everyone gets into this kind of bidding war like*one Quran from me,2 from me*
To me this is all a show off.
There are some very islamically knowledgable people here I would like you guys to give me your opinion on this subject.

[tahaqureshi]

You are very right. I don't think you need to be immensely knowledgeable about Islam to know that its obviously not right to boast about how much we have read.
As is important for us to read the Quran and understand it when we read it for our own selves, it is equally important to understand the Quran when reading it for the deceased.
I think we've all just become lured into the idea of reward. We don't realize that for every reward that God set up for us, there was a greater purpose to it. Like the reward for performing any good deed is not the ultimate goal of it. The ultimate goal is in the actual deed itself. I think that's a big problem with us.

[saeed-sohail]

To me it should be about getting Quran khawani and then muslims of your neighbourhood not all your relatives from all over the country for a show off.

[saeed-sohail]

I said that all this money spent on food should have been given to poor people back home instead of feeding well offs.Safe to say I was shouted at and according to one of my aunt I have become wahabi.

[Mohsin]

Originally Posted by saeed-sohail I said that all this money spent on food should have been given to poor people back home instead of feeding well offs.Safe to say I was shouted at and according to one of my aunt I have become wahabi.

Really?!
Tell your aunt, if you were a Wahabi you'd ask for the money to be given to arm bearded men throughout the Muslim world!

[mindless slogging]

Your lucky in this regard. When we do it for our grandad (May Allah have mercy on him and grant him Jannah, Ameen), we get people arguing all over the place. It's unfortunate.

Anyway, with your points.
You don't know that people are in a bidding war. Maybe they are actually telling what they did/read. Only Allah knows the intention of a person, so don't assume things because they may be wrong. Also competition in good deeds is a good thing, so competing to read the most Quran isn't a sin (unless its for fame etc, but Allah deals with intentions).

It doesn't matter if others don't have a clue. Just tell them the intentions/purpose and inviting them to good will also be seen as an act of bringing your closest relatives to Hidayat InshAllah.

Keep the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings upon him) going. As Shaykh Gibril Haddad wrote:

Furthermore the Prophet, upon him peace, commanded the same specifically upon the burial of Muslims. In addition, he recommended acts of charity on behalf of the deceased. Sa`d ibn `Ubada said: "Messenger of Allah! Umm Sa`d my mother died, what is the best donation (sadaqa) [on her behalf]?" The Prophet replied: "Water." Sa`d dug a well and said: "This is for Umm Sa`d." Abu Dawud, al-Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, and Ahmad narrated it with a sound chain.

http://www.livingislam.org/fiqhi/sm1-gfh_e.html#drs

[nabeel_1990]

Originally Posted by saeed-sohail I said that all this money spent on food should have been given to poor people back home instead of feeding well offs.Safe to say I was shouted at and according to one of my aunt I have become wahabi.

lol wahabis do call khatams bidah

[mindless slogging]

Originally Posted by saeed-sohail I said that all this money spent on food should have been given to poor people back home instead of feeding well offs.Safe to say I was shouted at and according to one of my aunt I have become wahabi.

The food is there for hospitality purposes. Give them no food if you want, but you still have to take care of the guests.

[12thMan]

It was a strange Quran Khwani. You cannot read the Quran in a day but people are saying they read one or two? It must be the para (chapters and there are 30 of them) and usually people who start it know they can read and finish it. No maulvi has been there when I have been to one and no one asks what you read. You read and put the para/book back. There are some who don't read but are there because not showing up is also wrong

I don't know if this ceremony is needed, but if people are there reading quran then good for them.

[tahaqureshi]

Isn't the minimum time allowed to complete the Quran 3 days?

[saeed-sohail]

Thanks mindless slogging for your post.I believe in dua and reading Quran for deceased but the way they were disappointed with 38 Qurans it showed that it is a show off for some people.
And that Hadeeth you presented is some thing I complety advocate.There are people without food and water and we are wasting money on people who dont need it.

[mindless slogging]

Originally Posted by saeed-sohail Thanks mindless slogging for your post.I believe in dua and reading Quran for deceased but the way they were disappointed with 38 Qurans it showed that it is a show off for some people. And that Hadeeth you presented is some thing I complety advocate.There are people without food and water and we are wasting money on people who dont need it.

You're not wasting it if it is for hospitality purposes. Don't you have to take care of guests?

If a relative comes to your house, do you give/offer him food? It's the same principle. You don't say,'nah, I can't give you food because I can give it to the poor and you are well off'.

The food is not obligatory, nor is it food for well-off vs food for poor. The food is for the guests that came.

There was a recent Islamic event here where they had a speech, then gave food (free to some). Should they not have bothered? No, because it may bring people closer to Allah. Giving food to your guests may be seen as Dawat.

Hafidhh-Ibn-Kathir writes: When Allah Almighty revealed this verse of the Qur’an which states ‘ O Beloved, warn your nearest Kinsmen’, the Prophet [May Allah bless him and grant Him peace] said to Ali ‘O Ali, sacrifice a goat and cook that meat and bring milk and fruit with the cooked to my house for a party’. At the party, Muhammad [May Allah bless him and grant Him peace] said ‘I am a Prophet of Allah, I have been sent to guide you to the right path, so become a Muslim’. When the family heard this, they started to laugh and they left the house. This happened for three days continuously. [Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Surah Al-Shuara, under verse 214]

[mamoo gogo]

Originally Posted by tahaqureshi Isn't the minimum time allowed to complete the Quran 3 days?

The Prophet (PBUH) said: “Whoever reads the whole Quran in less than three days does not understand it”

[saeed-sohail]

12th man I think you misunderstood it this is what happens.
When khatam gets nearer all the cousins are told to read and on the day they ask every one how much they have read.Someone writes this on a piece of paper and when molvi sahb comes for dua he is presented with this paper.
He adds something from himselfs and his students and then reads dua which goes something like this.
*aaj hum yahan janab bashir khan sahb ke walid sahb ke aisaal e sawaab ke liye mojood hain unke aisaal e sawaab key liye 40 Quran khatam kiye gae.Allah marhoom ko is ka sawaab attah farmaae.ameen.*

[Mohsin]

^^and its always as if the food itself i the main thing. This is to say that the dua is started whenever the food comes out, why dont people just do the dua, everything and then maybe afterwards bring out some food to give the guests.

The amount of effort into preparing the food (as if its Eid) and then bringing it out, and then reading the dua makes it seem as if its all about the food.

[mindless slogging]

Originally Posted by mamoo gogo The Prophet (PBUH) said: “Whoever reads the whole Quran in less than three days does not understand it”

Yeah, true. For the common people like us with very little knowledge. Imam Bukhari used to recite the Noble Quran every night.

[mindless slogging]

Originally Posted by Mohsin ^^and its always as if the food itself i the main thing. This is to say that the dua is started whenever the food comes out, why dont people just do the dua, everything and then maybe afterwards bring out some food to give the guests. The amount of effort into preparing the food (as if its Eid) and then bringing it out, and then reading the dua makes it seem as if its all about the food.

It should never be about the food. It's about the Dua that is done, but there is a tradition:

Hafidhh Ibn-Kathir writes : One day Prophet [May Allah bless him and grant Him peace] was invited to someone’s house. Prophet [May Allah bless him and grant Him peace] accepted the invitation and he bought a lot of companions with him to the house. There was a very short amount of food for the people. The Prophet [May Allah bless him and grant Him peace] said to bring the food out. Prophet [May Allah bless him and grant Him peace] read whatever Allah wanted on the food and du’a was also done on the food and the food was given to the people. After the people had eaten the food, there was still the same amount of food left as it was before the people started to eat. (Tareekh Ibn Kathir & Siraat un Nabi Chapter of Mujizat)

In which case, they are following the methodology of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), as he had the food there when he did the Dua.

[chacha kashmiri]

i've never read of the prophet (pbuh) ever reading the quran for anyone after their death or of anyone ever passing the 'reward' of reading the quran onto anyone else, never mind the deceased

[mamoo gogo]

Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri i've never read of the prophet (pbuh) ever reading the quran for anyone after their death or of anyone ever passing the 'reward' of reading the quran onto anyone else, never mind the deceased

true...this is a bidah...

[tahaqureshi]

Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri i've never read of the prophet (pbuh) ever reading the quran for anyone after their death or of anyone ever passing the 'reward' of reading the quran onto anyone else, never mind the deceased

http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/A...an_Khuwani.htm

[chacha kashmiri]

i didnt see any mention of reading the quran in any of the hadeeth or anyone performing an act for the deceased who wasn't a son or daughter

[Zechariah]

Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) used to pray for the person, there was no practice of reading the Quran and all, but if you want to do it, its your own choice, but your prayers are what matter the most.

[Momo]

Qur'an is a book of guidance, not to be used in bida'a like 'qul', 'chaaleeswan', holding over the head of a bride for 'blessing' and the like.

It's a tragedy that for the most part it is being used for all purposes except the one it was sent for: to understand and implement it in one's life.

Originally Posted by saeed-sohail Safe to say I was shouted at and according to one of my aunt I have become wahabi.

Be prepared for these types of hostile attacks whenever you say something which is contrary to the social customs (which are for the most part ristualistic in nature and are silly at best).

'Wahabi' happens to be one of their favourite 'curse words'. You are not the first to be called that for saying something that makes sense, and you aren't the last either.

My advice will be to, when under attack by aunties etc, be respectful at all times (especially when the opposition is an elderly person) but at the same time don't budge an inch. In other words, be respectful but resolute. That's what my own policy has always been.

[Wazeeri]

...

[ace_allrounder]

Originally Posted by Momo Qur'an is a book of guidance, not to be used in bida'a like 'qul', 'chaaleeswan', holding over the head of a bride for 'blessing' and the like. It's a tragedy that for the most part it is being used for all purposes except the one it was sent for: to understand and implement it in one's life. Be prepared for these types of hostile attacks whenever you say something which is contrary to the social customs (which are for the most part ristualistic in nature and are silly at best). 'Wahabi' happens to be one of their favourite 'curse words'. You are not the first to be called that for saying something that makes sense, and you aren't the last either. My advice will be to, when under attack by aunties etc, be respectful at all times (especially when the opposition is an elderly person) but at the same time don't budge an inch. In other words, be respectful but resolute. That's what my own policy has always been.

I especially agree with the "bride" thing.Its atrocious.I dont have this custom among close relatives,Alhamdulilah.
But in my extended family,sadly,the holding of Qur'an above the head of the bride does exist during weddings.Infact,all over Pakistan.

Pakistani Muslims have totally strayed away from the true path of Islam,the Qur'an and Sunnah.These rasams get on my nerves and I also hear countless stories of thievery,cheating shopkeepers,brothers argue and even kill over some stash of money....And loads more that you all are aware of.
They dont follow their own religion properly and yet,argue with the non-Muslims and say that they are "hell dwellers"

My parents are pretty strict,Alhamdulilah but they sometimes tend to go a little overboard.
And only a couple of weeks ago,we found out that "Khatam" is not right.Recently,no one in our family passed away,but when my grandfather died,we did read Surah Ya-Seen.I dont know if that counts.

Anyway,I dont think Khatam is right,nor is Qur'an khaani,where you read some Surahs for some worldly benefit,like,getting a job,degree etc

I studied Islamic since grade one uptill now since its compulsory in schools in UAE(yay) and so,I feel satisfied that atleast my Islamic education isnt deprived and helps me loads.Although its sad how many of my classmates go to Islamic classes and yet study it only for exams and then forget it afterwards.

Ugh,derailing the topic again.I always do that.

Anyways.I also see how people have read the Qur'an 5-10 times WITHOUT TRANSLATION and show off too.
I mean,what's the point? I have been reading Qur'an without translation upto 14 years (except in Islamic classes where we do English tafseer of some Surahs from our textbooks) and I didnt know what I was reading and felt rather blank without a translation.
Now I have a copy though.

Guys,please.Whenever your family does some Islamic "ritual" ,just check if its really ja'iz and not some riwaaj.Word of advice.

[Wazeeri]

I think the word bidah is thrown around a bit too much and it has been since the Saudis took over arabia, What we are speaking about on this thread is a cultural innovation which I don't see any problems with.

Yes it is unfortunate that the main purpose of the quran is not primary in most people's lives today but that is not to say that just reciting the quran while seeking sawab alone has no value by itself. Any good deed done with the intention of getting sawab is worthy of praise and I am sure Allah will be happy with the intentions alone.

There are many ahadith which attest to the rewards for uttering a single word or even letter of the quran and there are ahadith which confirm that good deeds (not bad ones) can be passed onto someone else. If someone reads the quran and wishes to make the sawab a wasillah for the benefit of the deceased then there is nothing wrong with it as far as I can see.

The practice of innovations ....etc may not be perfect but there is nothing wrong with the thought or the idea behind them.

Chaaliswan is a practical solution to a practical problem. On a person's death relatives who live close by obviously get a chance to pass on their condolences and attend the funeral but relatives who live far away have problems in reaching on time so what you have is the deceased's family having to cater for relatives every day for months after the death. It is difficult enough having to cope with the loss of a loved one but to also attend to visitors everyday is even more difficult. The tradition of Chaaliswaan allows the deceased's relatives to cater for all the relatives in one go hence making their lives easier. I don't see what is wrong with that.

The finer details of the chaliswan ie reading the quran...etc are just activities which give this gathering some sort of a structure. I don't agree with things such as the molvi making a dua and stating the number of times the quran has been read or people pretending to read the quran and lying about it but these are too minor issues on their own to make a fuss over.

Chaliswaan as a whole is a very good idea and it is not an innovation in religion in anyway.

Originally Posted by saeed_sohail I said that all this money spent on food should have been given to poor people back home instead of feeding well offs.Safe to say I was shouted at and according to one of my aunt I have become wahabi.

Even though you are probably right in that sadqah is better then just reading the quran mindlessly for sawab but you may have got an angry response because you were rocking the boat at someone's funeral ceremony which isn't polite or respectful. The food had to be served to the guests so there was little argument there, it would have been better if you suggested food for the poor as an addition rather then implying that everyone else had just got it all wrong.
We had a guy at my uncle's funeral who made a big fuss about everyone reading the wrong suras of the quran and praying in the wrong way. Needless to say he had many people telling him to go home. You don't need that at the funeral especially not after all the arrangements have been made. That is equivalent of telling someone who has just wiped the whole floor clean that he has missed a spot.

[khan-92]

Originally Posted by mindless slogging It should never be about the food. It's about the Dua that is done, but there is a tradition: In which case, they are following the methodology of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), as he had the food there when he did the Dua.

Brother that incident is about a less food and the Prophet(SallAllahu Alahi Wasalam) made dua for baraka so everyone can eat.
As for khatams and food it is a custom where people spend extravagant amout of money it has become sort of a party where some people hire halls and print invitations card for this custom which has no basis in sunnah.

Anyone can read Quran and make dua for the deaceased person instead of spending money and inviting all these people they should give money to the poor and sponsor hafiz in a madrasah that will be more rewarding then this Insha'Allah.

[mindless slogging]

Originally Posted by khan-92 Brother that incident is about a less food and the Prophet(SallAllahu Alahi Wasalam) made dua for baraka so everyone can eat. As for khatams and food it is a custom where people spend extravagant amout of money it has become sort of a party where some people hire halls and print invitations card for this custom which has no basis in sunnah. Anyone can read Quran and make dua for the deaceased person instead of spending money and inviting all these people they should give money to the poor and sponsor hafiz in a madrasah that will be more rewarding then this Insha'Allah.

It would also be better if you spent less on your house, car, family, education and give that to the poor aswell.

Some people are not getting it. As wazeeri said, give to the poor in addition to the food you have for guests. They are guests by the way, some travel a long way to come so you do have to cater for them.

Btw, yeah that incident was less about food and more about the Dua, as is khatam more about the Dua and less about food. But the food was there when the Prophet (peace be upon him) did the Dua. Someone asked why is the food there, well there is a narration from Ibn katheer.

[Wazeeri]

Khan-92

Look at how much people spend on weddings, does that make weddings wrong?

No! extravagant spending is wrong, not the event itself.

[Momo]

Waz:

Unwise things done on weddings definitely don't make weddings wrong. Any more than unwise things done on deaths make deaths wrong.

But we should always be careful of what we do on such occasions (births, weddings, deaths - which, as you point out, in themselves are definitely not wrong).

[Wazeeri]

Agreed unwise things should not be done.

[khan-92]

Originally Posted by mindless slogging It would also be better if you spent less on your house, car, family, education and give that to the poor aswell. Some people are not getting it. As wazeeri said, give to the poor in addition to the food you have for guests. They are guests by the way, some travel a long way to come so you do have to cater for them. Btw, yeah that incident was less about food and more about the Dua, as is khatam more about the Dua and less about food. But the food was there when the Prophet (peace be upon him) did the Dua. Someone asked why is the food there, well there is a narration from Ibn katheer.

Tell me what will a poor person do because of this practice of kahtam? some borrow money in pakistan to have a khatam otherwise he's family will think ill of him for not doing a khatam.
The khatam without food is not considered a khatam you have to have food otherwise people will not turn up.
This is a custom and is not part of Islam and it has become bidah becuase believe they have to do it and consider it part of Islam.

Give me evidence from seerah where the Prophet(SallAllahu Alahi Wa Sallam) after someone has died where he has invited the sahaba(ra) and made dua and had food afterwards?

Or from the sahabah(ra) lives where they have done this practice as well?

[khan-92]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Khan-92 Look at how much people spend on weddings, does that make weddings wrong? No! extravagant spending is wrong, not the event itself.

The act of esaale sawab is not wrong but the act having people come to your house after 3 days or 40 days and have food afterwards is not part of sunnah.

[Wazeeri]

Tell me what will a poor person do because of this practice of kahtam? some borrow money in pakistan to have a khatam otherwise he's family will think ill of him for not doing a khatam.

Tell me what a poor person will do because of weddings. Some borrow money in Pakistan to have a wedding.

How are you going to stop relatives from visiting to share the sorrow? Will you not feed them when they come? Is it not better and cheaper for the family to do this in one go?

The khatam without food is not considered a khatam

You are the first person I have come across to sugggest this.

Give me evidence from seerah where the Prophet(SallAllahu Alahi Wa Sallam) after someone has died where he has invited the sahaba(ra) and made dua and had food afterwards?

The more appropriate demand is "Give me evidence from the ahadith or quran to prove this to be against islam".

Islam does not restrict our culture to the actions and events of the Prophet(pbuh)'s time. If that was the case we would not be left with much of how we live our lives,

[Wazeeri]

Originally Posted by khan92 The act of esaale sawab is not wrong but the act having people come to your house after 3 days or 40 days and have food afterwards is not part of sunnah.

So? I don't think anyone is arguing that it is part of the sunnah.
Just because it is not part of the sunnah it doesn't mean it is wrong or haram.

[saeed-sohail]

I agree with khan92 here food is considered the main part of a khatam and the first thing people comment on is food.People comparing over the top weddings with khatams don't realize that on a wedding ceremony the whole purpose is to show off which I don't agree with btw but on a khatam people do the same thing and justify it by calling it islamic.

[khan-92]

Originally Posted by saeed-sohail I agree with khan92 here food is considered the main part of a khatam and the first thing people comment on is food.People comparing over the top weddings with khatams don't realize that on a wedding ceremony the whole purpose is to show off which I don't agree with btw but on a khatam people do the same thing and justify it by calling it islamic.

exactly my point it has become a custom that if you do not have food the family will speak ill of you.

[khan-92]

[QUOTE=Wazeeri]Tell me what a poor person will do because of weddings. Some borrow money in Pakistan to have a wedding.

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How are you going to stop relatives from visiting to share the sorrow? Will you not feed them when they come? Is it not better and cheaper for the family to do this in one go? 


I think you are mistaken brother I am talking about the khatm ceremony that takes place after 3-10 or 40 days I am not talking about people who come to give condlences and they get fed.

And then they have it annualy as well.

[Wazeeri]

I think you are mistaken brother I am talking about the khatm ceremony that takes place after 3-10 or 40 days I am not talking about people who come to give condlences and they get fed. And then they have it annualy as well.

Khan 92

Can you please read the last few paragraphs of my first post.
If it doesn't answer your question then let me know, I will try again

[aashiqmizaaj]

Originally Posted by khan-92 exactly my point it has become a custom that if you do not have food the family will speak ill of you.

So the problem really isn't the khatam it's the expectation of food - that's what needs to be addressed, the khatam in itself is fine. That it's become a vehicle to feast is no different than how some people have wrongfully hijacked the religion to serve their own political agendas. Afterall, people in the past did khatams as well and didn't think of the food.