Vitriol against Shoaib and Asif (and Pakistan)

Look how much these people hate Pakistanis. Dekho is bande ko kitni jalan ho rahee hai un mirchon ki jo Hair ki bisti se in sab ko lag rahi hain.
Why is he angry with Pakistan? Hair was a sick sonofab*tch who was bent on either destroying Asians or getting destroyed himself. If it hadnt been Inzi, it would have been somebody else! Why is it Pakistan's fault if Hair had decided he was God?
As for this doping thing, when most countries arent even committed to this sort of thing, why should Pakistan be punished for going out of the way to ensure that doping doesnt take place in Pakistan?
I am extremely angered by these comments. But another part of me is very happy too - to see people like Malcolm Conn in pain!




Pakistan plays by own rules
Comment by Malcolm Conn
December 07, 2006 THE Pakistan Cricket Board once again issued a two-finger salute to the cricket world when an appeals board reversed the drug bans of Shoaib Akhtar and Mohammad Asif.

As unjust and embarrassing as this decision appears to be, the PCB can - not for the first time - continue to thumb its nose at the game with impunity because of cricket's shambolic structure.
The World Anti Doping Agency (WADA) may be attempting to step in and take action but, quite remarkably for such a rich and high-profile international sport as cricket, Pakistan and its players are beyond WADA's reach.

The PCB is not a signatory to WADA and, while the game's governing body, the International Cricket Council, may be WADA-compliant, this covers only players involved in ICC events such as the Champions Trophy and Cricket World Cup.

So because Shoaib and Asif were tested by the PCB at the request of coach Bob Woolmer before the Champions Trophy, acting on widespread rumours that some Pakistan players were taking performance-enhancing drugs, the tests were conducted outside the jurisdiction of the ICC.

This means the ICC and, by extension, WADA will have a very difficult time ensuring that justice prevails.

The one faint hope for WADA is that the PCB applied the "exceptional circumstances rule".

The PCB's drugs panel appeal chief, Fakhruddin Ibrahim, a retired judge, claimed it was evident that neither Shoaib nor Asif were warned or cautioned against taking "supplements".

In anti-doping parlance, the word supplements has become such a common excuse that rule-makers have made it clear this has little credibility.

The world governing body for athletics, the IAAF, bars a plea under the "exceptional circumstances" rule that the substance could have come from a supplement.

The WADA code makes clear that sanction cannot be completely eliminated on the basis of no fault or negligence if a positive test results from a mislabelled or contaminated vitamin or nutritional supplement. Penalties can be reduced.

The PCB appeals panel has apparently wiped the sanction out in one stroke on the simple argument that the cricketers were neither told nor were they aware of the presence of prohibited substances in the supplements.

At the very least, the cricketers should have been forced to prove how the banned substance entered their bodies. This is a prerequisite for a reduction of the sanction under the "exceptional circumstances" rule.

If the bans against Shoaib and Asif are not reinstated then, a little more than a month after the ICC sacked umpire Darrell Hair in disgraceful circumstances and agreed to readmit pariah Zimbabwe into the Test arena next year, the cricket world will be left without credibility. Yet again.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0...8-23212,00.html

Don't see much wrong with this apart from the Darrel Hair comment (but then what do you expect from a Murdoch owned Aussie News channel?). This is pretty much the argument used by many here. Well if you don't care what other nations think of you then this is what happens. Pakistan quitely rightly is a laughing stock at the moment and deserves all the flak that it will inevitably kop. Sad but we brought it onto ourselves.

Laughing stock of the "other nations"? Why should we care about such a thing? You think the world is being run on justice? ^o^
If you do, have a look at Iraq, Palestine and the rest and you will realize what the "other nations" are up to. You want us to be in the good books of such nations?

Besides, Pakistan was also the laughing stock when they forfeited the match. But time proved who was the real joker, didnt it?

Its a simple matter. Pakistan had those tests voluntarily (without any external body forcing it to do so) and announced the results voluntarily. They made the players face the justice and justice was done. What is there that is biting the "other nations" in all this?

I am glad that for once, Pakistanis have given the two finger salute to the world. I hope they keep on doing that in other fields too. Because thats what the world has been doing to us for the last 50 years!

Your post, like that of many posters here, is quite contradictory. Firstly you argue, rightly or wrongly, that we shouldn't care what other nations think. However what then is the point of posting an article where a news agency of another nation is critising the decision? I thought we shouldn't care! So are you posting it to expect apathy? I don't think so somehow. Rather you are trying to get a response from Indignant of Islamabad or Shocked of Sialkot. But I thought we shouldn't care.

I fully backed Inzy's stance against Hair as that was the right thing to do. A fact that was actually accepted and acknowledged by most of the other neutral cricketing nations and journalists. That isn't the case this time. Ever wondered why?

Where does the two finger (or for that matter a one fingered) salute lead us to in sport where you are reliant on the other nations to play against? It ultimately leads us to isolation and to have no one to play against and such is different to the World of Politics which you have mentioned. At some point Pakistan has to tow the line. On most such instances I have fully backed Pakistan where I perceive there to be a miscarriage of justice. Unfortunatley I cannot do so on this case as the only miscarriage of justice appears that the two were let off based on ignorance (which for the upteenth time is no defence in law and their relative ignorance had actually been taken account of in the initial hearing).

So if we are to make such a stand, and adopt such an attitude, then we cannot expect anything else can we?

Non-Horrified of Harrow.

Ignorance is a defense under PCB's policy, PCB is allowed by the ICC to implement which ever policy they see fit, letting them off was wrong but the original bans weren't fair either.

So if I break the law unknowlingly in Pakistan will I get off without paying a bribe?

If PCB are in charge you'll be first hanged only to be later exonerated.

Well at least they would have got the first decision right!

Arent you tired of towing the line, man?
Thats what Pakistan has been doing for so long, within and without the arena of sport. Where has it taken us?

The seventh fleet never arrived and it never will! Your neighbour has been rewarded for confrontational behaviour with the nuclear deal and you have been slapped on the face for towing the line.

But I guess, you wont understand it. You, in trying to be the paragon of logic, consistency and common sense wont be able to see wisdom if it hit you on the jaw!

I am glad for once we took them on, even if its a thing as small as cricket.

If thats the only way to stop your anti-akhtar tirades than so be it.

Rather confusing post to say the least! The world of Politics and Sport are different. I am no fan of General Not Shereef and he has literally predictably been made a fool of by the US. In his mitigation (and Tony Bliar's for that matter) the economics of the situation means that they can do what they like.

However in Sport everyone is equal at least on the pitch. Fight the battles you can, those that are right and just. Forget the others. The Inzy / Hair battle was right and just. This one simply isn't and we are paying the price for trying to protect two players and wanting to win the WC at all costs.

HA HA Hilarious.

So ignorance is a defence in Pakistani Law courts?

Don't know about Pakistani laws but it is a defense under PCB policy.

So the PCB is a completely separate legal environment from the Pakistan legal structure? Somehow I don't think so especially given that the PCB is a Government run organisation.

Does Pakistan even have laws against possession or use of steroids? Probably not. Whether you like it or not PCB do have a policy and it does accept ignorance or accidental intake as a defense.

The world of politics and sports may be different but the facts of life in both are same: You show weakness and let others bully you and you wont be left with the very shirt you are wearing; on the other hand you tell all in no uncertain terms where their freedoms stop and yours start, and you will be left in peace.

You find my posts rather confusing, dont you? Well I am sure in a few years time when you will be sick of playing Mahatama Gandhi, you will find sense in what I am saying. For the moment, you keep on playing "do no evil, hear no evil, see no evil" but be careful because nobody is going to protect you if you dont do so yourself!

No one is playing Mahatma Ghandhi here but I wish you would stop playing George Bush / General Not So Shareef. Not everything is about honour and reputation. Pakistan wants to play international cricket - if it wants to do so it has to be part of the ICC. Simple & to do so it has agreed to abide to its rules. Does that mean it has succumbed and put on the Mushy lap dog act to Bush? No of course not. Any club has its own rules and policies.

Now do you think we emerge with any shred of honour or creditability after the latest episode? Of course not.

Simple? For you it may be so, but its not so simple for me. Thats because I am thoughtful.

Which rules are you talking about? How many countries do you think are signatories of these ambiguous doping rules?
When something is accross the board and fair for all, I have no objections. But why should we be over-honest and over-compliant when more than half the test playing nations dont give two monkeys about such regulations?

Yes, WC and ICC conducted tourneys are a separate matter. There the ICC has power over all cricketers of all nations. Apart from that, any "over-efficiency" and "over-eemaandaari" on our part is pure foolhardy.
If ICC is so concerned about it, why doesnt it make it mandatory for all nations to conform to a just standard? Why is it voluntary for some and binding for Pakistan?

For once, I have no complaints about the course taken by the PCB and the subsequent results of the inquiries.

Who gives a rubber sleeper about credibility, man? Ponting and company didnt get tired of supporting Hair when even the biggest of morons knows Hair's stance was wrong all along. Even after those emails from him were leaked, didnt Ponting and co. change their stance. Officials of Cricket Australia were offering Hair contracts to umpire in domestic competition in Australia even when everybody knew Hair had ultimately lost all his marbles and integrity at the same time.
What happened to the credibility of Australians, man? Nothing!
Thats because they are smart enough to know that these things dont mean anything. How I wish pacifists like you knew it too!

Well if it doesn't mean anything then why post the article and (implied) invite people to post how horrified they are. You are adopting the Millwall approach - "They Don't Like Us We don't Care", so who gives two Monkey Droppings what Fox Sports (of all things) cares? But seemingly you do. I thought only pacifists like me would!

As for the Aussies players that is different. They were offering their opinion and support for a fellow countryman. They weren't the ones who brought the game into disrepute in the first place (regardless of whether you, as I do, think that Inzy was right to do so).

"We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars."

I will take your word about your whereabouts but kindly dont generalize.
Some of us are situated in better surroundings!

I'm sorry oh grand one.
I overestimated you. Obviously not a fan of Wilde's musings.

I felt that Akhtar and Asif probably should have received some kind of punishment. But frankly, I can't stand self-righteous articles like this one either. The guy can go jump in a lake. The problem is that people like this reporter try to apply their own standards to Pak standards, and try to create an "us vs. them" position, when clearly there is a vast gulf between the western nations and Pakistan in terms of how well players are educated etc.

If you want to read a more decent, balanced opinion, Tim May's is the one to read (even though reported by the same guy):

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0...6-23212,00.html

What's with all the political innuendo on this thread? Nukes, seventh fleet and all that.

is there any truth to that? i mean i know of the rumors that shoaib and asif were juicing, but were the tests conducted on the insistance of woolmer to dismiss the rumors or were they merely standard practice?

Thats the new improved Bush's way of dealing with issues. Link everything together make the issue more then it actually is and some how tie it into a grand scheme running for decades to bring you down. This way you get to justify your un-just actions as mere remifications of your enemy's actions.

Amoeba,

In another thread, I have said that a small ban would have been in order. Something like 6 months (which would have put them out of the World Cup, but not seriously harmed their careers - treat it like an unfortunate injury layoff).

That was my opinion. I'm slowly starting to lessen this stance, as I think about the issue - and put myself in Shoaib and (particularly) Asif's shoes.

I do not subscribe to the notion that justice has not necessarily been served. I find it very hard to accept ending a sportsman's career, for drinking something he had no idea was proscribed. I am not in full possesion of the facts, but sitting from the sidelines, it does appear that the PCB's banned-substances education policy was, well, not all it should be. And for once (shock, horror), Tim May DOES make a good point. You're not comparing like for like, when looking at an Aus and Pak player - in terms of their respective understanding of this issue.

One more thing.

Give all this talk of our nations "honour" a rest. Even if you just want to restrict this to cricket, its still a red-herring. Pakistan's honour has been stripped bare, some time ago. The natural presumption amongst other cricket nations is that Pakistani's are cheats, in every way imaginable.

Much of this stems from our inability to hold others publically accountable for some of the dishonest mud they have thrown at us in the past. Mud sticks.

Any kind of rumour ascribed to Pakistani cricketers is treated almost as fact - because the presumption is that they are crooked enough to do this. Witness Adam Parore's recent article on drugs and Pak bowlers. Not a single shred of evidence. Just the rantings of a bitter a$$. But, he has not been challenged (or sued) by the PCB. So, many who read that article, in the absence of any counter statements, might start to believe it.

So, to hell with our standing in the eyes of the ICC and the rest of the world. We should just focus on whats right FOR US.

Amoeba sahb, you're a good poster but you completely discredit yourself whenever the topic is about Shoaib. I suspect you would have very little to say if shoaib was not involved.

Very eloquently put.

On the first point I could paraphrase the Holy Quran and say "You to your way and me to mine." The point being that there has been countless posts on the matter and I'm in no doubt that I'm in the minority here but I cannot change what I believe. At the same time I cannot change what you think. I value and respect your opinion and your right to hold it. I just hope that whatever happens is for the best for Pakistani cricket as a whole and for the longterm. I personally don't think that is the case. We may have won the battle but could well lose the war.

However on the second point it wasn't me who brought up the honour issue. It was actually Momo who had some kind of convoluted socio-political- sporting argument. I was merely suggesting that the path that we haven chosen to lead doesn't lead to honour either.

You're quite right to state that Pakistan's honour has been stripped bare a while ago. However why is that? Simply because of acting in the past like we have done now. Yes it is true that the World is against us and against Muslims at the moment but somehow we need to protray a positive image and have pride in the Green Cap and yellow star. It can't be said that the players past and present have always carried themselves in a way that would make their nation proud. It is no dishonour on the nation if these players are disciplined from time to time. What does bring dishonour is if these players are seen to be getting away with it. That is certainly the view of the rest of the world, rightly or wrongly, at the moment.

That is a back handed compliment if ever there was one! You forget that I'm a major fan of Asif and have said that he is the best Pakistani bowler that I have seen since Waqar. However I am first and foremost a proud Pakistani who happens to be a cricket fan. Therefore I like to see what is best for the game of cricket first, Pakistani cricket second, and then individual players. Also it doesn't matter to me whether a player is a matchwinner or a professional gulley player. Everyone should be treated the same, or seen to be treated the same without getting into the technicalities of the procedings here.

Maybe it's an untypical Pakistani belief but one that I like to adhere to.

The overall point is that this adhoc board system does not defend the players. See my only criticism is both the icc and pcb function in a reactionary manner. They act as if they arent independent. This is why they will always succumb to outside pressure.

Shoaib and asif, were technically innocent because this wasnt icc's judgement. I could care less about the ethical implications but the truth is that the manner in which pcb held the hearing and so on was unprofessional and lacked structure.

One thing we can all agree on is that this whole affair is just one bloody mess.

If the PCB suspected cynical steroid abuse within the team, they could have stamped it out much more efficiently, with a minimum of fuss. Step 1 would have been proper education of the players.

The fact that even this step wasn't taken shows - to my mind - that there wasn't much suspicion on this point. Which puts the sinister theories (we preempted the ICC and "outed" them ourselves, so that we would be in charge of any potential punishment) to bed. As if the PCB was that intellligent anyway (!).

Instead, they conduct internal tests, and handle the whole thing in the most inept fashion possible ("Shoaib iz being velly naughty sexy boy, so he must being big time druggie as vell, no? But Asif, he is to being dumb little village idiot, so he is ok, yes?") - washing our dirty linen in public, without for a second stopping to think that their own negligance on this issue was as much to blame.

To my mind, any notion of right and wrong went out the window (on this issue) the moment when the PCB threw their own people out to the wolves, when they themselves were at least as culpable (through negligance).