Will a Hiroshima style bombing of Tribal Areas be justified?

Will it?

It would only make things much worse. Hiroshima wasn't and still isn’t even really justifiable. It’s not just the present you must think about, it's more importantly, the future.

Hiroshima saved thousands of Japanese lives how else would the war have ended without hundreds of thousands more around the Pacific dying

No why would they be

It wouldnt work simply because you're not fighting an organised body with a central control structure.

You're fighting guerilla warfare with 'bands' of often unrelated groups/cells.

You cant 'scare' the generals into surrendering, all you'll do is make those who remain even more determined to kill you.

Besides only an idiot would nuke part of his own country or even a country connected to his country

"Will a Hiroshima style bombing of Tribal Areas be justified?"



you do know that that was a nuclear bomb, dont you?

without going into the idea of nuking an area, I will just say what can happen:

- the radiation will come to other provinces of Paksitan and probably some other neighboring country(ies) and it will not just be confined to a specific targetted area

- there are thousands of Pathans in other provinces and some of them will rise up

- there are other institutions in the country which have people who will rise up

- there are many foreigners in that area and in Pakistan who don't care about Pakistan.

- some in other countries may start targetting certain targets, be it just Pakistani ones. Al Qaida (whatever that is) has apparently already declared war against Pakistan

- the affects of the bomb lasts for years

In the end situation is just going to be worse than any other region in the world.

Firstly, i said that Hiroshima wasn't really justifiable, so it was partly a bad move and partly a good move.
Secondly, if you look at Japan's position before the bombs were dropped, you clould see that the Japanese were pretty much staring down the barrel of defeat, and the real reason for America's bombing, was to show the former Soviet Union, what they were capable of. Also, how is killing millions of innocent women and children helping to save lives? If you look at the war, and Japan's involvement, you would see that most of 'America's enemies' did not have any link what so ever to Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and most of the Cama-cazi bombers had nothing to do with these places (they mostly came from villages). This bombing did not put Cama-cazi bombers off, of flying themselves and blowing themselves up into other planes and mostly British and American ships. America use the excuse that they saved many many lives, by this act, but taking into account that the Japanese government were on there knee's, and (publicly) seriously thinking about pulling out of the war. And to make things worse, America decided to drop the bomb's, even after the general, Dwight Eisenhower, who was incharge at the time, publicly opposed the dropping of the bombs. Even with all the opposition, and Japan's surrender imminent, the dropping of the bomb didnt really save all those lives, but needlessly took them.

It's a fallacy to say the dropping of the bomb saved Japanese lives and quite downright disrespectful too.

All the nukes did was ensure that America didnt have to exert itself any further in that region.

The dropping of the Nukes proves that whilst the Americans like to 'preach' about humanity and value for human life, they themselves have no regard for any non-American (or Israeli) life.

It was an act of genocide and had those nukes not deterred the Japanese, the Americans would have happily nuked Japan into oblivion.

Humanitarians my foot!

More bs from the american propoganda machine. The war was nearly over thanks to Russian troops by then. America bombed Hiroshima to let the world know that they have just developed this new weapon which is not to be messed with.

General Dwight D. Eisenhower admitted in his book the white house years that the japanese armies were already defeated and the bombing was completely unnecessary.


And if it was to end the war than wouldn't have one bomb been enough?

and sharuk get your head fixed for even thinking this up, you sad pathetic piece of sh1t,

That's like saying the gas chambers were a good thing because without them, the European Jews wouldnt have realised the Germans were serious and would have been wiped out or that America wouldnt have stepped in under influence from its Jewish Lobby.

Exactly. I also wanted to say that.

I agree.

it is difficult to believe that any sane Pakistani can suggest nuking part of Pakistan.

my sentiments have been captured very well by Wazeeri in the following quote:

Wow I cant believe someone would even contemplate something like this that too in the name of saving lives.
Whoever thinks the bomb on Hiroshima saved lives is a nut case. The war was practically over by that time. The dropped the bomb to scare the living crap out of the world and then the drop the one on Nagasake to scare the world some more. That was the sole reason for the bomb. Kill thousands of innocent civilians right now so you can save lives that "might" have been lost. Amazing how about kill the babies of criminals as they might become criminals too.

Just unbelievable.

I agree with Wazeeri, this guy needs a ticket to mental asylum asap.

It isnt without good reason that no country has ever nuked their own people. Even the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nukings were amongst the bleakest things done by mankind. Nuking your own people would just take the cake. Even an indiscriminant carpet bombing of the area would be madness

WOW...i thought Musharraf was doing the best he could to kill his own nation but no i was wrong...there are a few others who are worse.bomb who...your own brothers and sisters...the thought is sick and disgusting..

This is the same i felt when a few people said that the should bomb Lal Masjid using air force and end it for once and all..The people who said this forgot that what if one of their own loved ones was also in the range of destruction..

We tend to blame United States for all our problems to find a scapegoat but honestly people like sharuk are to blame who start debates on which area of the country to destroy..seriously grow up!!!

Lets call these tribals to a round table conference ( the heads of these tribes), server them biscuits and tea ( and Rooh Afza) , then entertain them with a night of folk singing and exchange of gifts, then sign a peace accord.

See this Musharraf fella just doesnt have the knack ! These chaps are pussycats, tame and peaceful - all they need is a cuddle and a hug...

but nuking is a little tad too rough...

Absolute tosh it bears no resemblance whatsoever and is a stupid comparison

The Japanese were going to lose the war that was obvious but in no way was the war all over but the fine details .Japan was fighting to the death and the death toll on both sides would have been horrendus both military and civillians .Have you not seen the pictures of Okinawa were the soldiers all fought to the death and the civilians all killed themselves .The same would have happened on mainland Japan.There is a strong arguement that the second bomb wasnt needed.

Instead of being logical you are using this in a modern context as yet another bias against the US it was either millions dying or thousands .


Just a little addition Im totally against Nuclear weapons and marched against them in the 80s .I do not like the Us but not everything they do is wrong

The bleakest thing was the systematic murder of millions of people in the concentration camps

True enough but what I said still stands IMO

Typical backward Pakistani bakwas. First spend billions and billions on a useless piece of killing armoury, which could have been better spent on Education, Health and reducing poverty. Then suggest that the first time we use it we use it on our own people. There are some sad and sick people in Pakistan and some aren't even in the Government.

The war was won but far from over

Propaganda its obviously something you are easily susceptable to .

Remember there is wrong on both sides no one is always correct

It wasnt "far" from over. The Japenese were already contemplating surrender but were taking time to dictate their own terms. If the war was not winnable anymore for the Japenese then its pretty obvious that the end was near. The only reason the bomb was used was to scare the rest of the world. Thats the reason that two of them were dropped when one was enough to make the Japanese surrender unconditionaly.
The theory of how it saved precious lives on both ends is comepletely insane. Even if the bomb was not dropped how many more "soilders" lives it would have claimed theoratically as opposed to the real "civilian" lives it actually claimed. Even years after the war and upto this point "civilians" are paying the consequences of those bombs. This whole theory is based on not a fact but a guess. People propagating this theory keep on saying oh the Japenese would have fought till every single one of them was dead. So why did they stop after the bomb then? What about the whole "nuclear bomb" race that got kick started after those two bombs. Whats the price tag assigned to that on humanity. That too in the name of saving human lives.

[Edit by Mods: No personal attacks pls]

And all of the people, YOU are telling us this, who beleives US and UK are in Iraq for right reasons???

Im sorry but those of you who think that Hiroshima didnt save lives need to go and actually do some research instead of just guessing and spouting crap like always. The war was far from over and the Japs would have fought to the last man if it wasnt for the a bombs, I mean they didnt even surrender after the first a bomb that shows their mentality.

They stopped in the end because the Emperor told them to when he made a radio address .He did this because his life had been assured by the US .Before this they wouldnt negotiate and as in OKinawa they would have in the most fought till the bitter end .Many more Japanese Chinese US British Aus Ind Burmese Korean Malayan Indonesians etc would have died its as simple as that .There where still Japanese soldiers holding out in the 70s


What has the nuclear race got to do with this .Some people would say these bombs prevented a third and final world war .I dont but it can be argued and maybe I have been wrong

By that you mean because I dont subscribe to all your prejudices .

Also you never even read what i post as I have continually stated I am only talking about the UK .

It must be your hate that is blinding you

That sentance sums up 2/3rds of this board

Oh the great scholar of WW2 and Japense phyche please forgive me for questioning you. But please do answer some of my question since you have such indepth knowledge on the subject and clearly you have done your research.

1) Which nation in the modern history of the world has actually fought to the last man?

In my ignorant opinion there is no such nation. However in every single war we hear the same rhetoric being repeated. These are animals they will fight to the end. To dehumanise the enemy so its easier to be brutal to them. The same that was said about the Japense was said about the Russians, the Chinese and now the new villans.

2) What exactly was left of the Japenese army just before the bomb dropped?

Again since I am not an expert on the subject so I could be wrong. But the Japanese navy was destroyed and they had virtually no air force left. All they had left was a demoralised and depleted land forces. Man to man they were no match for the US army which had greater numbers, navy and air force to back them up and were ridding high because Germany was already defeated. There was no chance in hell for the Japenese to win the war. But according to you they would have fought to the last man. So what in the holly hell did the bomb change.
It was dropped on freakin civilians. It did minimal damage to what was left of the military. So why did they not fight to the end? Since they were so crazy anyway. Oh yeah thats right the emperor that was so powerless before the generals suddenly got power after the bomb. I forgot about that fairy-tale. Do you even know how much time elapsed between the first and second bomb? It wasnt even more then 48 hours. You think thats enough time for a nation to actually even figure out what the hell hit them after you nuke them?
Again let say it one more time. The bombs were dropped on civilians. Women, children, elderly everyday normal people. Not the apparently crazy Japanese army that was willing to fight till the end.
One more thing when you actually tell people to do some research atleast try to put some figures or refrences that back you up atleast. Just saying it saved lives dont mean jack. The only lives it might have saved was of American soilders. But the lives it took was thousands of civilians who are still paying the price.
According to what I know the only plausible reason to drop the bomb was to scare the Russians. Even before the war was over America knew it would be her and Russia redrawing the world map. The bomb was to let Russia know that America didnt play around. As simple and brutal as that.

So Americans assured him his life after the bomb. So what did the bomb had anything to do with emperors life assurance? It does not make any sense at all. If the Emperor was powerless in front of his generals then how did the bomb made him powerful. If anything the bomb would have fueled public anger and the army for revenge. Just like 9/11. Japanese knew the war was lost already. They weren't blood thirsty retards. They are as normal and sensible as you and me. They were just trying to get to a point where they could negotiate their surrender on better terms instead of unconditional surrender.
Tell me how many soilders approximately would have died? Did anyone ever did any credible research on that topic. I haven't checked it out but tell you what find out if someone put out a number sayong X amount of soilders would have died and compare it to the number of civilians that died because of the bomb. Again I said civilians. Thats the key word civilians. The soilders holding out till the 70's is just a insane comment bud. There are still Nazi's around. But you gotta look at what % of soilders and how much impact did they had. You can find a small amount of crazy people anywhere. Name a country and I'll find you some crazy people.
Nuclear race have allot to do with the incident. Why is it that only two nations on the face of this planet have Hydrogen bombs? Nuclear weapons were used and a precedant was set. If you want to be considered a power thats what you need. Because the bomb was used for the whole world to see. Its devastation was real.

It is one of the great scandals that one of the major architects of the Pacific war was allowed to keep his position after the war Tojo toook all the blame even though he was only taking his orders from Hirohito.The Emperor in Japan was all powerful and the army did everything to stop anything happening indeed it was the major factor in the surrender when the Americans said he would be allowed to carry on .Before the bomb Hirohito wouldnt surrender or even consider surrender .Their was even a plot to stop him surrendering to save his face in front of the enemy .I say again you only have to see what happened on OKinawa to see what would have happened on the mainland

I was just saying there were Japanese soldiers in the Pacific in thwe seventies still thinking the war was on

Soviet union didnt get the bomb until 1949 when the rosenburgs sold them the plans so what race are you talking about

The bomb was used to stop the war why wasnt it used to devastate China in 1950 when they were at war with the US in Korea


Sorry this was a bit I missed .Perhaps you havent read up about the way the Japanese acted in the war .Perhaps you should have a luck at Nanking and all the terrible things they did in China Manchuria ,perhaps you should look at all the terrible things they did to all the people they subjugated .Perhaps you ought to look up their treatment of prisoners who they worked or starved to death by their hundreds of thousands.Just look at the way people are up in arms about the mistreatment of a couple of hundred prisonerrs in Guantanamo bay the Japanese killed thousands upon thousands of defenceless prisoners and you say they were like you and me

so quotes from the generals who were actually fighting the war are not good enough for you then?

Have you lost your mind , kill 1000s of civilians whose only fault is to be in a regions where there are Taliban fighters, no way

In other words - They had it coming - scumbags.

I will point out the Irony for you because Im sure it will pass you by .All of a sudden you want to beleive what an American General says when it suits you

The unprovable assumptions of defendants of a crime have less credibiity than of people who advise against it.

There was evidence that Japan was about to surrender

There were people who had objected from within the US military

No reason was provided for the bombings immediately to a number of generals.

There were two bombings not one where one would have been more than enough to end the war. The USA wanted to show of their collection of human killing devices.

Of course they did. They weren't yanks.

The two bombs were just over two days apart.

General Dwight D. Eisenhower




"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet

"The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender." Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman

I see you didnt get the irony and continue to spew meaningless opinion as fact

Clearly the commander in chief and the head of presidential staff have meaningless opinions.

The point which you failed to grasp as you do most other points is that at the time of the bombing staff within the US military were sure of a Japanese surrender but they went ahead with the bombings anyway.

Lets start by bombing the big cities first .Karachi(all the khusras come from Karachi), Lahore

But why do you want to bomb the tribal areas?????

The answer of stupidity should not be stupidity. Wazeeir's comments apply to you as well.

Dude you are equating preceived death of soilders with actual deaths of civilians. Not only that but the effects of the bomb on the civilians for generations to come. To justify that all you can come up with is that it saved lives. Only lives it saved was of few American soilders. The price was paid by thousands and thousands of Japanese civilians. If to you or anyone else life of a civilian dont mean anything then how could you be mad about anyone doing anything. Everything becomes legit. Using chemical weapons, suicide bombings, carpet bombing cities because they too save the lives of the soilders dropping those bombs.
I have read up on the issue. War is brutal. The Japense were as brutal as the Germans or the Americans or the Brits. No one talks about the carpet bombing of German cities. People are people bud. An american civilian or a german or a Japanese life has the same value. Brutality is brutality no matter who is commiting it.
Think about the fact that why is it there was a race right after the bomb was dropped to make the bomb by every strong nation. All the premire members of the security council had the A bomb. Only two nations on the face of this planet have the H bomb. Why is that? Isnt the H bomb the bigger badder one? Why arent other nations trying to build the H bomb? Because after the A-Bomb was dropped a standard was established. If you want to be considered as a powerful military nation you need an Atomic bomb. Because the devastation of the bomb was seen by the world. It triggered the race to build a bomb for the rest of the world. Just like Sputnik triggered the race to get to the Moon.

sharuk, why would you even talk about such an attak against your own fellow people?

Its out of the question. Not justifed whatsoever. We did not make our nuclear weapon for killing innocnet people, we made it as a self-defense so that all powers know that we have the option to use it if attacked.

I can't believe people are trying to discuss with the idiot who created this thread. By the way IS sharuk Gen Musharaf in disguise, because you can attribute such fecal excrements coming out of his mouth.

I m surprised this thread haven't beeb binned yet.

Freedom of speech and all that malarky...

See you make some good points and I am totally against the bombs as I have stated earlier its just in this case I think it saved lives in the long run .I have also stated that the second one at Nagasaki wasnt needed

Laz

So do you think we are justified in questioning the intentions of the US? especially since we know that the second bomb wasn't necessary and there were signs of a japanese surrender and the fact that it was actually a complete defeat of the Japanese army at the hands of Russia which forced the surrender not the bombs?

[QUOTE=Zechariah]sharuk, why would you even talk about such an attak against your own fellow people?

Its out of the question. Not justifed whatsoever. We did not make our nuclear weapon for killing innocnet people, we made it as a self-defense so that all powers know that we have the option to use it if attacked.[/QUOTE]


maily india

It wasnt surrender at the hands of the Russians they invaded a couple of strategic islands .

Its nothing to do with questioning the US .The initial point was about whether the Hiroshima bomb was needed and I think it saved lives .The Japanese still didnt surrender because they wanted saftey for their emperor so the Us used the second bomb I dont think they should have but they did .
The main point is they havent used a bomb since even against China when they were at war and things were going initially badly China who didnt have them so who couldnt have retaliated

Laz

The second bomb wasn't dropped at the refusal of Japan to surrender. The decission to use both bombs was taken simultaneously. This was stated in the book the White House Years.

I will add another fact to the mix, The US had decided to extend a free way to the emperor months before the bombings. They delayed the relay of their intentions until after the bombings. Had the emperor been informed of the US's decission the surrender would have been reached without any more bloodshed.

The surrender by the way was due to the Russian victory at Manchuria and the acceptance of the allies to allow the emperor to continue. Bombing of civillians is nothing but terrorism and this is not by current moral standards but at the time many americans sued for the incident to be recognised as terrorism.

Hmm. So even though a hiroshima style bombing hasn't been decided yet, something close might happen

What, like psychos all over the country deciding to organize a day of mass suicide bombings?

no, dear mush and US itching towards bombing

Naaa, I think a day of mass suicide bombings is more likely.

I hope all these radicals get together in an empty field and blow themselves up, rather than trying to hurt innocent people.

A few world leaders in the field wouldn't hurt as well.

bombings in japan was useless...it was more of a revenge tactic for pearl harbour and to send a message to the russians at the expense of japanese civilians...it saved lives?...ahahahahhahhahaa...just when you think american propaganda is so obvious some idiot comes along to prove otherwise...