Stop Hiding!

Author: Umar
Date: 28-01-05 06:37

Blake once wrote,

How would you know what is enough till you know what is more than Enough.


Going by that rationale, I think one can safely say Enough is Enough!!

In case youre wondering as to whom the title is addressed, its Inzimam ul Haq and to an extent Yoyo

One of them really has to lead from the front.

He has to show some courage, some guts and some aggression. I am not talking about his captaincy but the fact that hes batting at 5 for Petes sake. What in God's name is he doing at 5?? A man of his calibre and stature needs to come at 4 if not at 3! There is absolutely no excuse for him or Yoyo for that matter to cushion themself by throwing in Malik and Hafeez up there to contemplate upon the new ball while they watch the proceedings from the pavilion, perhaps secretly thinking,
"Thank God, I am not out there or people might have found me walking back home earlier than they would have liked"

Its simply inexcusable! He might be a great batsman but hes downright pathetic when it comes to showing courage and guts. And I am not talking simple garden variety pathetic, I am talking creme de la creme of gutlessness.

Whats the pt of throwing in inexperienced, less technically sound people so high up the order when you yourself are not feeling confident enough to face that period?

Lets face it, if they were confident of their own skills they would not send every tom dick harry and harriet up there to ensure that they can face the middle overs and perhaps in the process, keep their dignity intact.

The sad part is that we cant even call for their heads because theres nobody better to replace these spring chickens!!

Sadly, I have to admit this: Its shameful that the team which represents the entire nation including me is composed of such gutless wonders and I feel almost disgusted at the fact that these people are one of us.

-------------------------------------
'Tempering discretion with deceit' - E. Waugh





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: marooned
Date: 28-01-05 06:43

I wouldn't be surprised if Hafeez asked to be promoted. He came out with intent and had a point to make. Inzi looked good and was unlucky not to go on and in the last game he took on Lee and looked positive. Lets give him some credit for his batting this series though I agree he should always be batting in the top 4.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 28-01-05 06:50

You know me Umar, I am a avowed fan of Inzi and probably the sole member of the I lov Inzi association...

Have to say, I do agree with you....Just the whole performance of the team is so bad at the moment that it defies explanation and belief - just dont want to say something I might regret later !

Regards

============================
The Barney


My real profile ? Evil Clown




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 28-01-05 06:54

The thing MIG is that is not so much about the whole shambles that our team is in, its about the fact that Inzi and Yoyo are such chickens really. You cannot send such novices up the order, no matter what anyone says this shows lack of confidence on hte part of the batsman(skipper)

how would you feel if imran and wasim decided to treat themself as 3rd change bowlers cause they felt that they couldnt handle the new ball or the wkts were not to their liking.

This is cowardice!

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 07:00

Umar I am a bit disappointed in your post. Where I can understand the spirit of it I have to say I feel it is out of frustration more than anything. Here is what I ask you to consider...and this is a request of the highest order...read my take on Bob Woolmer's strategy for the team, think about it, and tell me if I am wrong.

Inzi and Youhana must bat for as long as they can. I am sure you agree with this part. How long is long in an ODI. In my humble opinion, no batsman should need more than 30 overs to make a century. If he does he is not capable of playing at the international level. Inzi and Youhana come in before the 20th over!!! Not once have they had to do any different. If one or two of our top order go on to make centuries...all the better for team Pakistan! If they fail, Inzi and Youhana come in before the 20th over. Theyre NOT hiding Umar. Its a strategy that can work. We need to find some consistency and with time it will manifest itself in the team. Please think about this carefully. Lets not lose our heads here.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 28-01-05 07:14

atys, I am not one to be emotional and give in to my frustrations easily. and despite everything, I still believe that Inzi should not play below 4 no matter what.

Yoyo should play higher up or at 6 but one needs to be at 4 minimum.

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: marooned
Date: 28-01-05 07:17

Umar, it may be a good idea to remove some of the threads- this is not one of those- that are basically repeats of what is already being discussed. I have counted 38 topics on the match so far.



Post Edited (28-01-05 07:17)




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 07:17

But Umar, 3, 4 or 5 is all semantic isnt it? As long as they get enough overs to score their runs, does it really matter what 'position' they play at?




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Umar
Date: 28-01-05 07:17

looking at that just now marooned

if you see a few let me know

-------------------------------------
'Tempering discretion with deceit' - E. Waugh





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Umar
Date: 28-01-05 07:18

Inzi and Yoyo offer to bat 3 & 4!
Author: fair play
Date: 28-01-05 07:14

But not before the 20th over!





Re: Inzi and Yoyo offer to bat 3 & 4!
Author: Schiller
Date: 28-01-05 07:16



Bunch of disgraceful cowards!!

-------------------------------------
'Tempering discretion with deceit' - E. Waugh





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Umar
Date: 28-01-05 07:32

"
But Umar, 3, 4 or 5 is all semantic isnt it? As long as they get enough overs to score their runs, does it really matter what 'position' they play at?
"

Ofcourse not ATYS. I think the position surely matters. I am a tad surprised youre questioning that

-------------------------------------
'Tempering discretion with deceit' - E. Waugh





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: fair play
Date: 28-01-05 07:45

Look, seriously speaking, Pakistan is working not on the premise of batting order, but 'number of overs passed' order.

They might not have articulated it consciously - but that is what they do. Established and experienced batsmen dont want to face fresh bowlers armed with the new ball.

If that has not been established by now, then I dont know what will be.

Instead, the team looks to rotate the batting order depending on how many early wickets fall. That is not a batting order - it is an overs order. Let's call it that from now on - for clarity's sake.

Apart from obvious issues about whether this is the most efficient approach, there should be careful consideration about whether this helps settle the team. I would think not. Flexibility is all well and fine - but at some point it just unsettles everyone concerned. Woolmer & Co must give this some thought in my opinion.

It started with Imran Khan. He was such a fighter that he wanted to eke out whatever resources he had at his disposal on a given day. But Imran used to do quite the oppositte - he used to promote himself to number 3 if an early wicket fell!

What the team is doing now is just the oppositte. Of course, in a perverse sort of way, you could say Imran was to blame because by leading so much from the front, he helped develop poor habits amongst a genration of Pakistani batsman. They were used to an Imran Khan fighting it out while he saved them in the dressing room. Now that he retired they are a touch clueless.

They are using his philosophy still - but their own inverted version.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 07:51

I'm afraid you have completely missed the point fari play. I was very impressed reading the first part of your post. Yes it is an overs-order now. But unlike what you say, it is NOT rotated. In fact, we do exactly the opposite. We have been very consistent in our batting order throughout this series and before it. We are finally beginning to see some conssitency. And it will take 2 or 3 more series for you guys to realize that this approach will work. BW has said this before, this batting lineup will help us reach 250+ consistently!




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 07:53


Quote:

Author: Umar
Date: 28-01-05 07:32

"
But Umar, 3, 4 or 5 is all semantic isnt it? As long as they get enough overs to score their runs, does it really matter what 'position' they play at?
"

Ofcourse not ATYS. I think the position surely matters. I am a tad surprised youre questioning that



you will have to clarify that for me Umar. Am opener can get out first ball. So the batsman at 3 is essentially an opener now. That is all I'm saying here. Position is semantics, the stage of the game he comes in at is the real issue. You probably misunderstood what I was saying.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 28-01-05 08:04

The whole pt of the post was that a greater batsman coming in at 3 or 4 would steady the ship and set the tone. the over order policy doesnt work that way.

atleast not when the ship is sinking.

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson

Post Edited (28-01-05 08:05)




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 28-01-05 08:06

or perhaps one can further say at any pt.

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 08:08


Quote:

Author: Schiller
Date: 28-01-05 08:04

The whole pt of the post was that a greater batsman coming in at 3 or 4 would steady the ship and set the tone. the over order policy doesnt work that way.

atleast not when the ship is sinking


I can't argue with that!

All I can say is you are thinking in the context of a single match. I just think keeping the same batting order and letting people get comfortale in their roles is a long term solution to an inconsistent Pakistan batting lineup. If we keep altering it match by match (bringing afridi to open or pushing inzi up the order) we will not achieve that consistency. Calling Inzi a coward in light of this is not very fair.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 28-01-05 08:11

Actually no atys, not thinking in the context of a single one and my second post clarified that pt.

inzi should be permanently at 4 since hes as much a chicken as yoyo to come at 3 and face the brunt of it all.

its not fair to call him a coward because he should be called a hell lot more.

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 08:11

also...expecting Inzi and youhana to come in within the first 15 overs and bat till the 40th is extremely unfair! It is a lot more reasonable and a lot more doable for them to come in the 20th over, set the tone for the middle 15-20 overs and let the afridi and razzaq take over from there. again, a long term solution to a complicated problem!




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 28-01-05 08:15

no one is expecting them to bat that long, if they can face the brunt and set the tone, their job is good enough
thats why
pne of them at 3 or 4 , the other alternating with that is better rather than them hiding like an embodiment of timidity

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 08:18

so let me get this straigh Umar, you are saying ideally inzi would come in at 3, maybe inside the first 10 overs, set the tone in the next 15 overs or so and then who takes over after 25 overs?

I think this can turn into a very healthy debate. this one has been brewing under the table for a long time and should come out. I am hoping we can settle this on this thread. I hate to see a batsman as great as Inzi being called names like this.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Umar
Date: 28-01-05 08:23

I will indeed lay out what I think on this but later today, have to be off now

-------------------------------------
'Tempering discretion with deceit' - E. Waugh





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 08:25

great!! I'd appreciate a complete lineup and what you believe their roles to be. We can then compare it completely with what I believe BW's intended goals are.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 28-01-05 08:25

keep in mind

BW has said himself tht batting at 3 or 4 is not in his hands

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 08:29

I must hvae missed that quote. But regardless, I believe he does have a plan. And it does not include cowardice!




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: ggm
Date: 28-01-05 10:53

With such a big total Inzi needed to come in at 3 today. Needed time to build a big innings.

We saw Lara score a lot, something he could do because he was in early (ironically helped by Sarwan's injury).




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 12:05

finally umar learns some common sense....! i said to you from very start ur best players need 2 come in early as possible to maximize number of overs they can bat!

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 12:09

Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 08:11

also...expecting Inzi and youhana to come in within the first 15 overs and bat till the 40th is extremely unfair! It is a lot more reasonable and a lot more doable for them to come in the 20th over, set the tone for the middle 15-20 overs and let the afridi and razzaq take over from there. again, a long term solution to a complicated problem!


whys it unfair?

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 12:24

Umar, do the words i told u so ring a bell....!

i thought yoyo and inzi werent cowards?



************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 15:50

bump

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 16:40


Quote:

Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 12:09

Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 08:11

also...expecting Inzi and youhana to come in within the first 15 overs and bat till the 40th is extremely unfair!


whys it unfair?


because theyre HUMAN amjid! they can do that once in every 5, 6 matches or so but not every match or even everyother match. on the other hand, if you only aske them to bat for 15 maybe 20 overs, they can do that a lot more easily. that is what BW is asking them to do.

btw...you said it again

" i said to you from very start ur best players need 2 come in early as possible to maximize number of overs they can bat!"

how many overs do you think a world class batsman needs to bat to get his century? more than 30??




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 16:43

so why are players like sachin.pointing,gilchrsit etc.. in top 3/4 off there sides when they normally font bat there?

so that they can dicate temp of game from start!

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 28-01-05 16:52

Inzamam is a coward. This fact has established quite firmly now that he has made the Number 5 position his own most unashemedly and pusillanimously. Generally your premier batsman bats at Number 3 or 4.

Imran came down like a ton of bricks on Zaheer for doing an Inzi and refusing to bat up the order. It's disappointing as much as it's a stark fact that Inzamam is hiding behind youngsters instead of being out there leading them properly. No wonder he can't convert so many of his 50s to centuries. Ton conversion rate is one of the lowest around in ODI history for someone thought of as the best batsman of his team. But he hardly deserves the tons in the first place as he runs from facing the new ball.

Fall of wickets naturally always bring about pressure on the rest of the batsmen. And Inzamam is prepared to see that happen time after time to the Pak batting line-up due to relative inexperience of the players batting above him.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Geordie Ahmed
Date: 28-01-05 16:54

some commentator suggested that a possible explanation for Inzi and YoYo batting down the order is a way of helping their players learn from batting at the tough position that is 3/4! this would aswell in future provide us with mentally strong batsmen so we dont suffer when Inzi and YoYo gotta retire!

-------------------------------------

-------------------------------------
HOWAY THE LADS
-------------------------------------




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 28-01-05 16:55

Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 16:43

so why are players like sachin.pointing,gilchrsit etc.. in top 3/4 off there sides when they normally font bat there?

so that they can dicate temp of game from start!


Exactly! and that's where Inzi's cowardice shows through. What to talk of the back ache that suddenly shoots on the eve of Tests with Australia be it in '01 or '04 Series, and becomes so unbeareable he cannot play!




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 28-01-05 16:57

Geordie

That is taking the extreme optimistic stance. But this attitude of both Inzamam and Youhana is doing far more harm than good to Pak team. A team whioch regularly loses the first three wickets for not-so-many is seemingly generally up against it most of the time.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Geordie Ahmed
Date: 28-01-05 17:01

Im 50/50 at this stage! i wudnt call Inzi a coward BUT i believe he shud bat at 3/4 (basically im confused)

to be honest our chasing has if my memory sevrves me right hasnt been too bad of late compared to in the past!

-------------------------------------

-------------------------------------
HOWAY THE LADS
-------------------------------------




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 28-01-05 17:07


Quote:

how many overs do you think a world class batsman needs to bat to get his century? more than 30??



atys...........You DO NOT deserve to be called "world-class" when you are hiding behind youngsters and scared of facing fresh bowlers bowling with newish ball.





Quote:

I hate to see a batsman as great as Inzi being called names like this.



Why? Is he a scared cow that all his sins would be swept under the carpet? If he is so great as you think, it's time to show leadership in batting.....and you don't do that by faking injury in two remainder Tests when Aussie bowlers have crushed you twice in the First Test for a low personal score! You fight it out if you are great, you don't run away like a frightened great rabbit! You tell your team mates..."I will lead you out there and I'll show you how to play these bowlers!", not "Sorry my youngsters, I'll have to leave you now...best of luck!"




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 28-01-05 17:13


Quote:

But Umar, 3, 4 or 5 is all semantic isnt it?


atys.........No it's not semantic!!! Someone with even basic cricket knoweldge would know it's not! It's crucial to the game-plan, and sets the tone for the innings and the tempo with which the innings progresses!

The whole team gets under pressure if quick wickets fall at the top....not the ideal way to generate confidence in the team ranks and put opposition under pressure really. But then again, if you don't have confidence in your own abilities, fair enough, you can come even at Number 5 or 6 even though you are supposed to be a great and the senior batsman of the team.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 18:06

Atys, Inzi has admitted already that himself and yoyo are batting 4/5 just incase their is a collapse...! so is that type off attitude to have?

2nd when maliks done so well @ 3 why ****** about by moving him aswell?

like i said b4 BW thinks Pakistan is some sort off play toy and he can mess about with batting order as he please!

stability if any has gone out off the window!

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 28-01-05 18:12

Amjid

Your coach is not left with too much of a leeway when your great batsman takes liberties with the team positioning and wants it all too easy for himself.

Miandad and Imran were the kind of premier batsmen of the Pak team which led the way like lions. The new duo of inzamam and Youhana is more like a pair of lambs as compared to those true greats.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 18:20

Farhad, imran and miandad absolutely hated each other close to end off their careers in late 80s and 90s., however they always did what was best for team and put differences aside!

I remeber reading a touching and moving article called "2 dads" or "2 mums"

which was basically insight into these gr8 cricketers and their ability to put team 1st....!

sadly not many players in team are doing that now!

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 28-01-05 18:26

Well, they were both fearless cricketers of the highest caliber. These are the types of players who are the true substance of a team.

Imran would have nailed Inzamam had the latter refused to come up the order. He lambasted a senior player like Zaheer publicly, pouring scorn on him for showing trepidation and fear and not helping out relatively inexperienced batsmen by insisting on batting lower down the order.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 18:30

Farhad, When was the zaheer incident? wat series? i have heard bits and bats about it...!

Only two times ive seen pakistan have decent skippers have been when imran was in charge and wasims 2nd/3rd spells as skipper.

Both blved in principles of true cricket...! batsmen score runs, bowlers take wickets... fight hard, show passion and give ur all.

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 18:34


Quote:

The whole team gets under pressure if quick wickets fall at the top


okay so like I told Umar, this is a wonderful cricketing debate one that I would love to talk more on. But for now I'll just address Farhad's comments here. You are absolutely right! Yes, when quick wickets fall the entire team gets under immense amounts of pressure. Just as it did against australia. and who came in to face the new ball? who provided whatever little fightback we could muster at that point?

think about it guys. you have been watching cricket for a long time now. If Inzi was really scared, wouldnt he just get in early, get out and say well I did my best what else can I do. Instead he is saying to the youngsters..."go out there and do your best. If you fail, I will save the team. Don't worry about failing, I am there to support you". I absolutely love the guy's attitude. He has been saying from the start. This is a Pakistan team where no one will be afraid of failure. And for a young team this is the best attitude to have. Think about it.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 18:36


Quote:

Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 16:43

so why are players like sachin.pointing,gilchrsit etc.. in top 3/4 off there sides when they normally font bat there?

so that they can dicate temp of game from start!



Amjid...meray bhai...Inzamam doesnt have damien martyns or rahul dravids in the back of his trunk. He HAS to play a different role in the team. Please be reasonable.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 28-01-05 18:39

Well he has played 330-odd ODIs, if he comes in and performs well against the new ball once in a while, we can't take that as standard. Inzamam is always a prime lbw candidate when he walks in to face a new ball against decent seamers.

Playing new-ball is a very difficult task and it's only in Pakistan that we find youngsters pushed up to face the music on a consistent basis.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Geordie Ahmed
Date: 28-01-05 18:40

im with ATYS on this! i cannot call the man who played a MAJOR part in helping us win the WC a coward!

also i think Inzi playing at 5 has nothing to do with being scared! with Malik playing at 3 Inzi was playing at 4 BUT with Hafeez in the side (be it cos of selectors or BW etc etc) Inzi has brought him into the side and instead of doing what you say is stay comfortable and continue batting at 4 he has moved himself down the order to allow the younger batsman! thats my imo in anyways

-------------------------------------

-------------------------------------
HOWAY THE LADS
-------------------------------------




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 28-01-05 18:45

Well, the ultimate Pak cricket expert - Imran Khan does not agree with this line of reasoning.

We can even try to defend it even if Inzi starts coming in at Number 7! He is trying to groom other batsmen etc etc. but that won't hold true, would it?

Inzamam was an awesome talent in '92, but hasn't done himself justice. It's his attitude that is suspect more than anything. The battles with Australia in the main field of Test cricket (even the ones he has cared to take part in!) have proven that beyond a shdow of doubt.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 18:45

What i dont understand is current fascination with packing side with to many batsmen and no bowlers!

Ive always belived when u pick a side u look at conditions. In Sumwer like england or new zealand u strength batting because conditions can be tougher.

In Asia u can get away with playing maybe 5 batsmen + keeper batsmen because wickets are that slow and batter friendly extra batting is just wasted.

In Aus wickets again are good and u need 2 have something in the bowling!

hameed, malik, yoyo, inzi, razzaq, afridi, akmal u have 7 batsmen... u dont need any more...! ok maybe one more in tough conditions but not more than that.

Their is no need for hafeez or azhar inside...! pakistan shud have picked 3 frontline bowlers b4 this series started!

whole team plan is on containment and chase!



************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 18:49

Amjid...here my appeals...be reasonable!!! The plan was to play 3 front line bowlers in Sami, Akhtar and Rana, backed up by razzaq afridi and malik. Things didnt work out that way. You know that. There were injuries, the chucking matter. But the intentions were the same as youre saying. Nobody WANTED to put azhar and hafeez in the team. but there was no other choice!




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 28-01-05 18:51

pakistan shud have picked s nazir, irshad and kaneria in sqaud in my opinion,

despite being raw irshad cud have ruffled a few feathers.

lets see come indian series if sumat is learnt!

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Geordie Ahmed
Date: 28-01-05 18:52

to be frank im getting sick of all these ex-crickers be they legends or not criticising Inzi and the team BUT dont do anything about it! i think Imran Khan is the man to sort our cricket team out but he wants to focus on politics , fair enough, so he should stick to that and not demoralise the team!

-------------------------------------

-------------------------------------
HOWAY THE LADS
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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: cricket_crazy
Date: 28-01-05 18:53

"pakistan shud have picked s nazir, irshad and kaneria in sqaud in my opinion,

despite being raw irshad cud have ruffled a few feathers.

lets see come indian series if sumat is learnt"



nope for India Fazle Akbar will be picked. Bari is hopeless.



Post Edited (28-01-05 18:54)




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Geordie Ahmed
Date: 28-01-05 19:11


Quote:

pakistan shud have picked s nazir, irshad and kaneria in sqaud in my opinion,

despite being raw irshad cud have ruffled a few feathers.

lets see come indian series if sumat is learnt!


and when them guys fail you will suggest another 3 then when they fail you will suggest another 3 (probably including some of the one's you want discarded now) and on and on!

-------------------------------------

-------------------------------------
HOWAY THE LADS
-------------------------------------




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 28-01-05 19:48


Quote:

Author: Geordie Ahmed
Date: 28-01-05 19:11

Quote:

pakistan shud have picked s nazir, irshad and kaneria in sqaud in my opinion,

despite being raw irshad cud have ruffled a few feathers.

lets see come indian series if sumat is learnt!



and when them guys fail you will suggest another 3 then when they fail you will suggest another 3 (probably including some of the one's you want discarded now) and on and on!


Indeed Geordie!




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Umar
Date: 29-01-05 07:36

First thing

What inzi did in the WC of 92 is long gone and its fair to say hes not the man he was. The way he keeps pushing himself down the order is nothing but cowardice and under no circs can cowardice be forgiven specially in a Skipper. For petes sake the man is leading the team and he cant take it on the chin? No great player does that.

Wasim and Waqar always said that they had difficulty with the new ball and found it troubling to control. But they always lead from the front as nearly every strike bowler does. You dont send a third rate seamer up the order to ensure that they take away the brunt of it all.

THe same principle applies to batsmen.
Going by that rationale, number 3 and 4 and more importantly 3 is the most pivotal position.

The idea is to as I said above, set the tone and save the sinking ship. Not to see how many more you can sacrifice before you say ok ill come in now. thats just rot and chicken.

I wouldnt mind one coming in at 3 the other at 5. this would balance out safety with aggression.

One can then easily set the tone while knowing that another is also there in the wings. Its pointless that you send in all the novices and then say well we are saving the middle order.


ATYS:

"so let me get this straigh Umar, you are saying ideally inzi would come in at 3, maybe inside the first 10 overs, set the tone in the next 15 overs or so and then who takes over after 25 overs?"


Heres the thing as i see it, if Inzi/Yoyo have to come in at 3 in the first 10 overs so then so be it, one of them can surely set the tone, steady the ship and after the 25th or 30th over allow

the other better batsman(yoyo or inzi whichever remains) to guide the lower order thru the innings.
coming in at 3 would also allow these guys to help chase a larger total and save the novices from swinging ball or treacherous conditions. Down the order, guys like yoyo/razzaq/malik/afridi and one more can easily save the day.


Inzi deserves all the criticism he is getting.

-------------------------------------
'Tempering discretion with deceit' - E. Waugh





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 29-01-05 08:57

Umar I dont agree with your strategy for our team. The basic flaw that I see is this, when we ask Inzi to 'set the tone for the entire innings' we start depending on one batsman. now i dont care how great that one batsman is, we can not depend on him! the Indians depended on Sachin for so long, look at what happened to them. Until Dravid turned the corner the Indian team lived and died with Sachin and if we make the same mistake we will never get better.

Lara bats at number 4. Do you think he is a coward as well? I dont see you using the same profanities at him. yes inzi has been batting at 5 since Hafeez came into the side but that is a handicap that the team HAD to face. there was no other choice. And I dont think Hafeez has done too badly either.

Unfortunately Youhana is no Damien Martyn or Rahul Dravid. He is a good batsman but not one we can rely on all the time. We all know that. So the question becomes, who can pakistan rely on? certainly not the youngsters. But we can rely on Inzi. I recall a quote from his early days of captaincy "we will not be afraid of losing. we have youngsters in the team but they will not play under the fear of losing". and in my opinion this is exactly what he is doing. he is saying to the youngsters, go out there and play your game. dont worry about getting out. if you do I will be there to bail the team out. If you get out within 5 overs (like we did against australia) I will steady the ship. If one of you plays an exceptional innings (like butt did in india and kamran against windies) I will be right by your side to guide you. He is a great man and is doing great things for Pakistan cricket. I am really sad that true fans of Pak team are unable to see this.




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 29-01-05 09:04

@ umar....! seems i use 2 say this to you and u plainly ignored it!

now ur making these comments urself

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 29-01-05 09:25

Amjid, for the record and FP would testify to this for one, that I have been saying this for sometime that one of them needs to come up higher, I am not sure why you think I am backtracking.



ATYS:

"Umar I dont agree with your strategy for our team. The basic flaw that I see is this, when we ask Inzi to 'set the tone for the entire innings' we start depending on one batsman."

ATYS, the best batsman is supposed to do that, pehraps one with flair and sense. IF inzi doesnt have it then we can grp him with novices and therefore strip him of his accolades, period.


"Lara bats at number 4. Do you think he is a coward as well? I dont see you using the same profanities at him. yes inzi has been batting at 5 since Hafeez came into the side but that is a handicap that the team HAD to face. there was no other choice. And I dont think Hafeez has done too badly either."

Lara has batted higher up the order as well and even yesterday was it? when he came up the order. There is no need at all for Inzi or even Yoyo to hide like kittens at the sound of an eagle.
Sorry but if Inzi is not upto the task then hes an ordinary batsman and equally replaceable.


"Unfortunately Youhana is no Damien Martyn or Rahul Dravid."

THe q is , is he better than hafeez and malik or Inzi for that amtter, if they are then by process of elimination not comparison, you send one higher up and one alternatively.

" I recall a quote from his early days of captaincy "we will not be afraid of losing. we have youngsters in the team but they will not play under the fear of losing"."

Hogwash, why doesnt he come up the order or send one of them? Now with Hafeez's induction hes slippped further down the ladder as has yoyo. pah and Tosh!

"and in my opinion this is exactly what he is doing. he is saying to the youngsters, go out there and play your game. "

ANd saying that I am a chicken! No way for a great batsman to lead. Can you see great bowlers doing it with the new ball? No!

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 29-01-05 09:29

--> umars current mood -->



************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 29-01-05 09:32

yar hud hoti hai phattospanay ki bhi!!!

and then Inzi has the nerve to blame every single person from Shoaib to Hafeez to who knows what.

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 29-01-05 09:38

Inzi shud be man enuf to hold his hands up and take the blame...sadly only way now is to sack him as skipper!

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Schiller
Date: 29-01-05 09:39

The thing is he is so senior that no one can make him or even Yoyo come up

.............................
Because you saturated sight,
And I had no more eyes
For sordid excellence
As Paradise. - Dickinson




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Amjid javed
Date: 29-01-05 09:57

just when u though Senior player power was a thing of past in pakistan team u get this.

sadly pakistan always blv most senior player shud be skipper!

************************************************** *********
64.1 Warne to Salman Butt, FOUR, swung out to square leg where a diving mcgrath can't get to the catch and the ball goes through him for salmans 100





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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Farhad
Date: 29-01-05 14:01

Author: Amjid javed
Date: 29-01-05 09:38

Inzi shud be man enuf to hold his hands up and take the blame...sadly only way now is to sack him as skipper!


Sadly he has lost a lot of credibility and respect in the past few months.


Well....no hiding for Inzamam in the following stats for the Test Series he just led Pak in.....oops....sorry...led in one Test and sat out in the next two due to obvious fear and trepidation of opposition bowlers:



Pakistan in Australia, 2004-05 Test Series Averages



Pakistan Batting and Fielding

Name Mat I NO Runs HS Ave SR 100 50 Ct St

Asim Kamal 1 2 0 97 87 48.50 56.39 - 1 - -
Younis Khan 3 6 0 259 87 43.16 50.48 - 1 2 -
Salman Butt 3 6 0 225 108 37.50 56.96 1 1 - -
Yasir Hameed 2 4 0 146 63 36.50 63.47 - 2 1 -
Yousuf Youhana 3 6 0 189 111 31.50 63.00 1 - 2 -
Shahid Afridi 1 2 0 58 46 29.00 95.08 - - - -
Shoaib Malik 1 2 0 47 41 23.50 45.63 - - 2 -
Abdul Razzaq 2 4 1 45 21 15.00 20.54 - - - -
Mohammad Sami 2 4 0 54 29 13.50 27.27 - - 1 -
Kamran Akmal 3 6 0 77 47 12.83 55.00 - - 3 4
Imran Farhat 2 4 0 44 20 11.00 34.10 - - 1 -
Shoaib Akhtar 3 6 0 42 27 7.00 28.18 - - 2 -
Danish Kaneria 3 6 3 18 9* 6.00 51.42 - - - -
Naved-ul-Hasan 1 2 0 9 9 4.50 128.57 - - - -
Mohammad Khalil 1 2 0 5 5 2.50 21.73 - - - -
Mohammad Asif 1 2 2 12 12* - 19.67 - - 1 -
Inzamam-ul-Haq 1 2 0 1 1 0.50 6.66 - - 2 -


What a champion performer! Is grooming Number 11s too by leading from the back. Even Asif and Khalil did better than Inzamam.






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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: appeal_till_you_squeal
Date: 29-01-05 18:13


Quote:

ANd saying that I am a chicken! No way for a great batsman to lead. Can you see great bowlers doing it with the new ball? No!


Umar this sentence alone shows how youve let your emotions cloud your judegement and are beginning to sound more and more like Amjid. Inzi never said he is a chicken. He has been more than willing to face the new ball when the need has arised. And he has done very well may I add.

great bowlers WANT the new ball. ALL fast bowlers want the new ball. I am guessing you are not a fast bowler. You can't name a single great fast bowler in history that WANTED the older ball and was forced to take the new ball. The new ball is like fast bowler candy.

Quite frankly, your agruments make no sense. All I see are words like "Tah Posh Hogswash". you are not thinking straight. by the way, Lara DID come in at number 4. He just came in early because of the injury to sarwan. just goes to show that the POSITION (!, 2, 3, 4, 5) is all SEMANTIC. the cricumstances dictate at which point of the match you come in to bat. just like inzi came in early against the aussies and played BRILLIANTLY.



Post Edited (29-01-05 18:16)




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Re: Stop Hiding!
Author: Geordie Ahmed
Date: 29-01-05 18:40

Umar you along with others are being unfair on Inzi!
I personally would like him to bat at 3 BUT thats my opinion (which doesnt account for too much)

Everybody is saying things like he is scared to bat at3, i have one question for you, HOW DO YOU KNOW? do you know what he is thinking? or are you making these assumptions based on his actions? you do know there is a possibility that there are other reasons for him batting at the spot he is?

like i said in a post above, Inzi was batting at 4 BUT because Hafeez was brought into the side after the Malik no balling issue, he has accomodated him into the side and therefore pushed himself and YoYo down the order. if he was really SELFISH then he would have remained at 4 and everyone else to bat around him BUT NO, Inzi along with BW surely decided it would be better for the team for the youngsters to bat early!

WHAT WILL INZI achieve by avoidind to bat at 3rd or 4th as you say? nothing, this man has been in the game for over 10 years, he has shown that he is a class player who is NOT AFRAID.

I do question his captaincy BUT I WILL NOT QUESTION HIS BRAVERY! GO INZAMAM!

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HOWAY THE LADS
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Wow!
Anyway it seems that Farhad is trying to deflect some of the criticism of Shoaib onto Inzy.
Wherever he bats I don't really care. We're winning and that's all that matters. I think what hurts Farhad more is that we are doing it without his beloved cherised the great injured one!

Amoeba, this was well before we had any success in the VB Series.