So when a Pak player is not doing enough to become the BEST that HE CAN BE....

An interesting point has been brought forth yesterday in the Shoaib-thread by a few Shoaib-haters in that as Shoaib has not taken care supposedly of his fitness etc. and "is not working to become the best he can be", he does not deserve to be included in the team. Interestingly also, one thing common to them is that they are invariably huge Inzi fans...So....

Has Inzi been doing enough over the years to become the BEST that he can be? I'm afraid NOT......

This is the guy touted to be a truly great batsman by Imran..so much potential Immi say in him that he called him "as good as Tendulkar" in '92. What did Inzi do then to become the best he could be? Not much! After WC'92 glory his weight ballooned and he still carries with him the tag of a known vegetable. His running between the wickets is still atroicious as judged by his slow movements and the number of times he has either gotten out himself run-out or handed that fate to his partner at the crease.

This is not all...Inzi is well-known to be very lazy when it comes to net practice and as was related a few years ago by an English journalist, as the rest of the team was busy doing nets, Inzi found himself a chair and sat on it watching the proceedings!! In contrast, Tendulkar has been known to be a freak when it comes to intensive training.

I wonder whether Inzi goes more than once a week to the gym and what he does when he gets there.

Moreover, Inzi has hardly done anything to improve on his technique regarding his vulnerability to be lbw from the ball moving in earlier on in the innings.

Hence, sadly Inzamam has fared no better and simply has NOT strove to be the BEST that he could be. Therefore, all the criticism which his supporters level on Shoaib hold for the skipper too. and it's purely hypocritical as much as it is shallow and bitter reasoning to criticise a Pak player when the skipper himself has hardly set a shining example regarding getting rid of his weaknesses, training hard and improving on the basics of running betwene the wickets.

So chuck him out I say IF this line of reasoning is correct. More of a case since Shoaib is ranked HIGHER than the skipper in world ratings; hence if Shoaib is not good enough, neither is the skipper. But then when you start doing that, I wonder how many players would be left who are "doing their best to become the best they can be?"

But really as a skipper Inzi is the one who can be held ultimately accountable if he falls in this regards and fails his national team's fans by not working diligently and single-mindedly towards fitness and training regimes and removing the glaring flaws in his technique which seem still to be there. Although his running has comparatively improved, in the other areas listed he is still abysmal and not putting all his efforts in.


As much as I admire Inzi, I find the shallow approach of some of his fans hard to fathom and accept given that their own favorite player is most pathetic in the yardstick they are using to judge Shoaib with here.

Interesting. I myself am not a Shoaib hater... but for those who are, the above points are very valid indeed.

However, Inzi is a proven world class batsman, who is much higher than Shoaib in terms of achievement. We don't mind Inzi being overweight when he's playing and consistently winning us matches, batting like a genius. Shoaib however, has simply not done enough, compared to Inzi in his career, for us to allow him to neglect his fitness.

Still it holds true....Inzi has simply NOT done enough to become the BEST HE COULD. Just have a look at him, and the way he moves between the wickets, the half-committed strokes he offers when he comes at the crease to class bowlers, the glaring lack of fitness training and net schedules, has not even cared for his back by not getting fitter and lean. What face or logic does he have or his supporters have when they question Shoaib in this regards?

Alot of people seem to use Akthars injuries as a tool for excesive critism. when he does play in wins or defeats he always seems to give a good level of performance.
Rather than fans over focusing on this they shud look to fact the team is littered with under achieving players who are only in team coz of there ristaay with the captain and coach....!

Pakistan test team is a joke right now and seems wether hes in side or not akthar will be made a scape goat.....
on the original topic thou - Inzamam at times seems to have lack true motivation thru his career. Its only afta being dropped after 2003 world cup has he shown some real drive and emotion. Hes a world class batsmen however, question marks will always be raised over his fitness, running between wickets... no mata how many runs he gets his fitness and build is always the butt of commentators jokes.

Indeed, Amjid. These arm-chair critics have hardly got an inkling as to how crucial Akhtar is for Pakistan. But interestingly the players themselves do not think with such retarded logic. For example, I witnessed Salman Butt talking about only Shoaib's return as he was watching England rattle the Aussies. The words he used are as stark as they are alarmingly true given the dearth of our bowling resources.

It would take a couple or so years for the next crop of excellent bowlers to get settled....Irshad, Najaf etc. but at the moment we don't have much apart from Shoaib to show.

Farhad, youre article focuses alot on inzi not being the best he can be. another thing to add to that is inzi`s ill discapline and ability to lash at out team mates and others is a problem aswell. ive just posted an article which shows Inzis been reprimanded numerous times by match referees game afta game since 2000. also childish outburst against hafeez/akthar have been warranted and have neva help situ. Inzi is a world class batsmen but is "ape like" in behaviour (no really social skills and large tendancys to sleep whilst captaining in the field.

Such indesgretions leave his image tarnished to cricketing world.

I see what you mean Farhad but if you look at all the great ( and not so great ) batsman of yesteryears, physical shape wasnt the greatest thing. I mean, likes of Mushtaq Mohammed, Gavaskar, Boycott etc werent super athletes. Same goes for spinners - Iqbal Qassim, Inti etc...

With fast bowlers, it is all about fitness - they derive their power/strength from being physically fit - indeed, bowling speeds nowadays are better due to the physical fitness of bowlers - This is not the case with batsman - ie you cannot say that batsman are getting out less to balls outside the offstump due to their weight!

Inzis runout problem is more due to his misjudgement ( and of others as well - remember Razzaqs bad call in India ) but not due to his fitness - anyone taking impossible runs will be run out!

Oh, come on! Just realised Inzi is the most reported player in the world regarding ill-discipline!! He has even surpassed Lord Snooty! I wonder what the reaction of a certain group had been if Shoaib been the one with this dubious distinction. Is thuis doing wonders for the country's reputation or what? What kind of an example is this setting? Yet another feather of hypocrisy in their caps. Lagge raho!

MIG

For starters, I am not advocating Inzi to be laid into for his failures in these matters. He is not perfect, and neither is anyone else in the bPak team. I'm just showing the parallel reasoning to the ones who question Shoaib's lack of seriousness and commitment when it comes to improving his game.

Running between the wickets and judgement definitely can be improved I think, as can be weaknesses in technique through sheer regular hard work in long net sessions...and that is something Inzamam is not known to do.

I take your point regarding Shoaib's perceived lack of full fitness. But it's all perplexing given his stature in the world ratings. Honestly, he has done far much and more for Pak than he has ever been credit for.

you aight farhad? you actually praised Tendulkar?

Ah wait..Lord Snooty...that's better

anyways, I agree with ya for once.....inzy could have been mentioned in the same breath of the tendulkar, lara, and waugh class....but lack of practice holds up for him

Yah, Tupac. Credit where credit is due.

Lord Snooty? Yeah, sounds just right given the title given to him by British tabloids...suits him fine regarding his haughty demeanors and delusions of grandeur.

another comparison between 2 players

i highly predict 4/5 pages without any results, these kinda conversations go no where

Well, I never said Inzi is not better than Tendulkar in the last few years, did I? Thank God, he does not play for personal milestones, so please do not mention that again. The Tendulkar I talked about is the one Imran mentioned in '92, not in the last few years! We would hate Inzi to be a Tendulkar of the last few years!! Inzi is NOT a selfish batsman and was never so, and that's where also he deserves credit.

I remember here stories where in school cricket inzi would just bat and then 12th man wud take up his fielding duties... that really sums inzi up in 1.

HAHAHAHA

cant wait for the anti shoaib PPers to start their side of the argument

that's what we will see tomorrow, 4 pages full with arguments

but i can't wait to see this thread been Hijacked

yep...wait till the hijack squad get here....

farhad bhai do you still have that article you wrote on the head to head between india and pakistan over the years?

Also when comparing Akhtar with Inzi, many talk about how Akhtar takes breaks and goes off-field compare that to the number of times Inzi goes off-field. Now people will say Inzi's job is to bat so he can take rests when we are fielding but is he not the skipper is it not his job to set the field and change bowlers etc.

Mates, remember what happened when Inzi lost all that weight and got into shape for the World Cup? At least he's tried to get into shape when he was criticised.

Let's see Shoaib hit the gym and really get into top shape and bowl off a shorter run-up for more than 3 balls or when he gets tired after another marathon 3 over spell.

When he does that THEN you can come back and slag Inzi off

Which one are you talking about, mate? I've written quite a bit on our cricket skirmishes with the neighbor. The 4-in-a-row one was on old PP...I don;'t think it can be retrieved now.

sometimes i wish shoiab tells inzi n bw to get lost.when pakistan gets thrashed they will come begging for him.

We are getting thrashed with and without him lately so i dont think any begging is needed!

I am gonna ask you something and please try to give me a straight answer!

If Pakistan cricket can continue despite the reteirments (forced or unforced) of ALL TIME GREATS like Imran Khan, Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis, what makes you say our team will collapse without Shoaib???
There is going to be a time sooner or later when shoaib retires (whether its his own choice is another matter) and we will have to move on without him so i dont like it when ppl say Pakistan will finish and we will get thrashed etc etc

this is the one where pakistan ends up something like 12 - 3 up after all possible comparisons

is that the one where he removes the Sharjah matches cos Indians blame it on match fixing and what not??
That was a classic thread

it sure was...i was gonna cut and paste it but forgot

am hoping farhad bhai can dig it up

AHAHAHHA what a bunch of BS...first of all inzi is a legend...he's already proven his worth to pakistan cricket...won a world cup...and continues to be the anchor for this side...i acknowledge the fact that him getting involved in that shower rumble was stupid...i'm not going to defend his every action like shoaib lovers on this site stand by shoaib whatever he does...secondly, inzi's a batsman...and for those that don't know...conditioning for batting is much different than for bowling...as mentioned, when inzi was being criticized for this weight problems he lost weight for the 2003 world cup and looked a different person...unfortunately that didn't work for him, but the point is...he tried to improve himself unlike shoaib who thinks that he can bowl while pregnant...whatever inzi does conditioning wise...he still excels and wins games for us...when shoaib doesn't condition himself properly, he does absolutely nothing for us...and don't come back and say he took 5 vs. australia in the first innings...getting five wickets and then leaving the field is ridiculous...look at his clips when he was winning matches...a clear difference can be seen between then and now...a bowler has to be in much better physical condition than a batsman...

inzi doesn't have a 4 mile run-up...inzi doesn't have to bowl 25 overs...the whole premise of this argument is flawed in that you're comparing a bowler to a batsman...

true inzi could have been a better batsman but then pakistan were already a good side in the 90s, however now we require good players, and in the time of need inzi has improved his batting and lost weight whereas with the loss of 2 Ws, when we reallly need Shoaib, he has gone backwards.

At this moment in time...Shaoib Akhtar is Pakistans most devstaing bowler.

Doesnt matter what we think of him...he is crucuial to us.

Yes devastating to team morale, spirit, discipline and performance - just ask Worcs!

u cannot seriously laugh at the impact shoaib has for the team

i agree that he has discipline/ fitness problems

but simply in terms of ability, there is no-one better than him in pakistan and few in the world

Pop your collar mate, even at 70% Shoaib would walk into the side but unfortunately he struggles to maintain that level of performance during a whole test match let alone a whole series. He's looking lazy and unprofessional for Worcs, doesn't look anywhere near match fitness and if he can't be bothered to make an effort to prepare for what is a massively important series because he thinks he has some divine right to play for Pakistan then you should take a deep breath and ask yourself if you really want someone like that representing YOU as a Pakistani?

read what i said

on current form i dont think he is gud enough to play for pakistan
this is because i said he does have discipline/ fitness problems

the question was about ability, and in that no pakistani can beat akhtar IMO (of the current team)

who won us the test series in nz n sa?

i asked for a straight answer and what do i get, a classic evasive response!

Im not denying Shoaib played a massive part in those wins BUT that was NOT the question, i asked whether Pakistan Cricket will collapse as a result of Shoaib retiring or being forced to retire?
Now please try to answer the question i asked with a simple response, a yes or no will suffice

the nz series happened a long time ago? does shoaib suck that much that we have to go back years to find out what he did for us? AHAHAHAHAHA...whereas inzi has contributed in every series thus far...the nz series was in a time where shoaib was fit...so that doesn't count...its basically a case of what have you done for me lately...

where was inzi when india beat us at home?where was he in australia when our team was thrashed?his back injury vanished when the odis started

pakistan won't collapse but heck with a pop gun attack i see competing the lower division instead of the big boys.

My question to you is: When Imran khan retired both the Ws were settled in international cricket, when the 2 Ws retired shoaib was settled in international cricket. If shoaib retires now, which bowler do you think is going to take the role of the leading strike bowler, which bowler right now can you seriously say is settled in international cricket?

If shoaib retires 3 or 4 years from now you would expect someone like Gul, Sami or maybe bowlers like Irshad, Najaf to be settled and ready to take the role of the strike bowler.

Can you safely say right now that bowlers like Sami and Gul are ready to take the role of the strike bowler and what about bowlers from the domestic system like Irshad or Najaf, surely you dont expect them to shine from their first game onwards? Who is going to take wickets while these guys are settling in?

shabash.

No we dont have a bowler to carry on the strike BUT these younger guys like Sami,Gul etc etc are NOT going to learn anything from Shoaib if he is too UNFIT to play.....he isnt exactly a shining example of a professional cricketer, the guy doesnt seem to care about his fitness despite it clearly affecting his game

Inzamam never said he wanted to play for Australia. He doesn't get the credit he does actually deserve IMHO. A test average of 50, ODI average of almost 40, everytime he strides to the crease, it gives the Pakistani camp confidence. Can't say the same about Ferrari sahab. One match he will take 11 wickets, the next he will be hammered at 5rpo. Seems like he only takes wickets in helpful conditions - if so, why the hell do we need him in the team?

that is not true at all

taking a 6 fer against new zealand on a dead pitch where inzy had got 300 is not helpful conditions

What does Inzamam average against teams like Australia and South Africa? The teams that had the best bowling attack through the bulk of Inzi's career. Maybe you will understand why Inzi doesn't get the credit he deserves.

Now compare Inzi's performance against these teams to Shoaib's performance against these same team.

you are comparing apples and oranges!

I think Zaf was harsh on Shoaib, there is no doubt the guy has the ability BUT its no use having the ability if you are in the dressing room

So you agree there is no one good enough to take strike other than shoaib? So how exactly do you believe Pakistan cricket will 'Move on' after shoaib.

Will Sami all of a sudden mature and start taking wickets of quality batsmen? or Gul will bowl like he did against India concistently without injuring himself? or one of our domestic bowlers will come and rock the cricketing world with their brilliant performances? or will we always have to rely on kaneria on fifth day pitch?

I want shoaib to be fit also and i am sure he WILL get fit, but right now the worst thing we could do is force Akhtar to retire as there is no one other than him that can lead our bowling.

Look dude, it's common knowledge that the Kiwi's are terrified of anybody who can bowl quicker than 85mph. Go check out the bowling performances of the express quicks and you'll see that they all do brilliantly against the Kiwis.

At no point have i said we should force Shoaib to retire!
I would love it if he can sort his fitness out and help the younger guys, that would be fantastic BUT lets be realistic the guy has had fitness problems for over a year now - im not holding my breath that he will sort it out so what we have to do is be prepared that we may no longer have Shoaib!

EVEN if there is no one at this moment to carry on the bowling im sure we will eventually have some decent bowlers who will start to perform, a country like Pakistan has to produce a talent!

IT SEEMS LIKE EVERYONE DOES AGREE - if Shoaib can sort his fitness out then great, i would not object to him being selected BUT in his current state of being unfit and disinterested he is of no use to us!

How long could that 'eventually' take? Pakistan can certainly produce talent but is talent enough? They need experience also, don't they? Are you willing for Pakistan to lose the next few series until these bowlers 'eventually' start performing?

so what shall we do, give up our test status?? leave cricket alltogether??
Shoaib has fitness issues and whilst he has them he cant teach himself anything never mind the younger bowlers

i can ask you the same thing...where was shoaib in both these encounters? it would make sense if you could think of instances where shoaib performed and inzi didn't...our whole team in both these contests was inept...therefore, your argument doesn't make sense...besides, inzi is needed more on the side since our batting is worse than our bowling...hence inzi is more valuable than shoaib...

I disagree!
in YoYo and YK i feel we have very good batsman, also Kamal has been a steady performer BUT in our bowling we have shoaib is never there and we have Kaneria who is still learning the trade and desperately needs some support, i think our bowling is weaker

on current form

we have one test class bowler...danish

dat is not betta den our batting

The importance of Inzi to Pak's batting is unquestionable. Similarly the importance of Shoaib to Pak's bowling is unquestionable also.

"our batting is worse than our bowling"

Actually currently our bowling is weaker than the batting as YoYo,Younis, Afridi, Kamal are all in form and making runs and our batting recently has put runs on the board. Our bowling on the other hand has recently really struggled to take wickets and has failed to bowl a team out below 400.

So you agree that Pakistan would get 'thrashed' for the time being until these bowlers start performing? You agree that it is not going to be as easy to move on compared to how Pakistan moved on after Imran, Wasim and Waqar?

Shoaib's fitness is a genuine problem i agree but to say it has not improved at all since australia is defnitely not true. There are improvements, i agree they might not be major improvements but there certainly are more improvements. In recent county matches he has bowled his alotted overs and has bowled some five over spells. He has not been at his best but you can not expect a guy to be at his best after a 8 months gap.

I dont agree we WILL get thrashed - can never say never BUT yeah the chances of us winning is slim! clearly you need quality bowlers to win games BUT we dont have them....Shoaib is unfit....Sami is inconsistent....Gul is injured....Shabbir has action problems etc etc

It isnt going to be easy BUT i think its pretty safe to say life without Imran, Wasim and Waqar was much more difficult - these guys are all time greats who dont come around often BUT we were fortunate that Wasim and Waqar carried on from Imran-the loss of Imran was not badly felt (as a bowler, yes his captainy was missed big time) BUT after Wasim and Waqar retired we felt it big time - yes Shoaib had good performances here and there BUT he missed a lot of matches!
Whether you like it or not BUT there is going to be a time when we will no longer have Shoaib in the team (seems like it will be arriving soon) - Shoaib cannot teach the younger bowlers when he himself is hardly playing - he is very injury prone and past year or so been unfit!

We will have to agree to disagree then - Shoaib before going to Australia was carrying too much weight and was clearly unfit (getting tired, suffering niggling injuries) fast forward 8 months and you have the same problems!
The guy has to change - he has to cut his run up down (Which he refuses to do) OR he has to really work hard on his fitness (which he doesnt seem to be doing)

Lets see what he is like come the England tour - i will be surprised if he has dealt with his fitness problems! if he is picked for the England series i would be shocked if he can complete the series (that includes both innings)
If he still has fitness issues come the England series then i think that should be the last straw (tho he has had far too many of those) and should never be allowed to play for Pakistan - im not talking about being injured which can happen to anyone at anytime, im talking about him being able to bowl a reasonable amount of overs in both innings of a test match

our batting isn't weak? ahahahahaha...we can barely reach 400 during a test match...are all you on drugs?...haven't you heard of the infamous pakistani collapse? you never know when or where that may happen...only youhana and inzi are guys that you can depend on...the bowling is actually great in odi's...for tests its still raw...but better than the batting i think...

I am with Zaf here, I was one of the Shoaib fans around 2 to 3 months ago but when even his county starts complaining about his fitness and attitude and the chairman of the club calls Shoaib a "character" you would think that there is something wrong with Shoaib not with PCB and Worcs cricket club. No one has ever criticised Shoaib's talent with the ball or his ability against top teams its just his attitude and fitness levels that is criticized here, Inzi has been steering Pakistan batting order alone in both tests and ODIs for oround 5 to 6 years now and never for once has he complained. Has he? I dont remember him ever saying that he is not going to do this because he is not getting that. Where as Shoaib has time and again showed off and complained about burden of carrying the balling attack in just a space of 2 years since the world cup 2003.

I probably was harsh on Shoaib, and there is no doubt he is a matchwinner. As far as the title of this thread is concerned, no player can be classed as doing "the best he can be" because he can do better.




Why shoaib fans cannot get this in their head I do not know!!

All the shoaib haters need to get their heads examined!
They have no argument, he is the fastet bowler in the world and he can rip apart any side in the world! Look at the damage he is causing in the english county cricket. Maybe when he and sami demolish the english this series many of you will shuuuuut up!

The only damage he is causing there is to his own reputation !

Yaar bhai what county cricket are you watchng eh? Last 2 matches he took 5 wickets+ what you talking about?

Seems like you haven't been following the news where Worcs have complained about him - and given him a pay-as-you-play contract !

ohh yaar they are **** they have to complain against pakistani's this is their nature. Shoaib is faster than 10 englisg bowlers combined, look how he is picking up 5 wicketers for a joke!

what ere they complaining about anyway?

Ok so Worcs cricket club complains because Shoaib is not a ****? I dont see Essex, Surrey or any other county complaining about Mahmood or Kaneria. Both Worcs Cricket Club and PCB have a problem with Shoaib's attitude and fitness makes you wonder wether the whole world is against Shoaib?

Typical pakistani response....

Yes he didnt fulfil his immense potential to start with but in his last 45 tests going back to the 1999 hobart test he has scored 4063 runs at 59.75 with 15 centuries. THats exactly why he is among the best of the best for the last 6 or 7 yrears.

You don't agree we will get thrashed? so who is going to take wickets, who is going to bowl the opposition out twice?

I don't understand your argument really. How exactly is it going to be easier to move on compared to the retirement of Imram, Wasim and Waqar? You your self can't name one strike bowler, but somehow can say Pakistan should be able to move on. According to you some bowlers will 'eventually' start performing, What happens to the peformance of the team till that 'eventually' comes?(if it comes).



I guess we indeed will have to agree to disagree.



Lets see what the team would be like if he is not slected for the England tour. I will be surprised if Sami takes wickets! I will be surprised if Gul will carry on his performance from a year ago without getting injured! i would be surprised if Kaneria takes a fifer giving less than 150 runs! Or i will be surprised if Razzaq will actually come to merit his place in the team by some performances. I will be surpised if we can bowl the opposition out in both innings against a batting line up that is giving aussies a hard time.

Until the England tour comes the shoaib case is inconclusive as the 'anti Shoaibs' have their opinions and the 'pro shoaib' have their opinions and both opinions seem unchangeable.

Some Joe Shmoe writes an article crying over Worcs defeat and gives two paragraphs to criticise shoaib. Would he have said the same thing about shoaib had worcs won or would he be praising shoaib. The writer uses two quotes from the chairman about shoaib "he is a character" and "And inevitably there are difficult issues to deal with" do you believe that is all the chairman said about shoaib or are these manipulated quotes chosen because hey fit the article nicely. Kaneria and Rana have not really shined for their teams but they have escaped criticism Why? because their team is winning. The fact is Worcestershire expected shoaib to win games for them but since shoaib has not able to do that they are criticising him.



Inzamam has been leading the batting alone? Since 2003 name me one victory where inzamam has alone put runs on the board(without the help of any of youhana, younis, kamal etc) except that one bangladesh victory this has never happened. Shoaib's case on the other end he is the only pacer that could take wicket in the Aussie series and he had the right to complain about it and he only really complained about the burden after the aussie series.

Shoiab got us 2 fivers.virtually carried the pakistan bowling where the rest were thrashed except for danish.