Muslims Suspended on Full Pay During Ramadan

[shaykh1985]

This is an interesting topic...

Especially considering how people on here seemed to speak about the effects fasting would have on an athletes performance...

Seems employers are rightly expecting their staff to be at full strength...what do you guys think?...

MARSEILLES, FRANCE // France's uneasy relationship with its sizeable Muslim minority, Europe's largest, has been highlighted by the suspension of four young summer camp monitors accused of endangering children in their care by observing Ramadan. The local council employing them said a "lack of nutrition and hydration" impaired the assistants' ability to ensure the smooth and safe running of the camp. Colonies de vacancies, as the camps are known, were devised by the Swiss in the 19th century and have become a French institution, often providing subsidised breaks in the countryside, mountain or seaside resorts for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Mohand Yanat, a Parisian lawyer acting for the monitors, said they would go to court to defend their rights, asking: "How can you prejudge someone's abilities on the basis of how their religious practices?" The case was brought to light by Bondy Blog, a website with "citizen journalists" drawn predominantly from Africans and Maghrebins living in Paris's immigrant-dominated suburbs. Identified only as Samir, Moussa, Nassim and Ali, the monitors had been recruited by the Communist-run council of Gennevilliers, on Paris's north-western fringe. They were in charge of a group of Gennevilliers children at a camp in Landes, south-western France. Nassim told the site: "There was a visit from an official responsible for youth holiday centres. He satisfied himself all was running smoothly, which it was, before joining us at the lunch table, where he remarked that neither I nor Moussa was eating." Summoned by the official later, they were told that a clause of their contracts obliged them to eat and drink since failure to do so risked the children's safety When Nassim protested that this was discriminatory and that he would never put the children in danger, the official insisted he would have acted no differently had the monitor been a woman following a diet. That evening he announced that the monitors would be dismissed and ordered them to leave the premises the next morning. When they stood their ground, this was altered to suspension on full pay for the remainder of their contracts. The same action was applied to the other two, including Samir, the assistant director of the camp who, when challenged by his immediate superior on his intentions, said it was a personal matter his boss had no right to raise. The Gennevilliers council said in a statement that the four had failed to comply with the obligations of their contract and could have jeopardised "the physical safety of children for whom they were responsible". "This lack of nutrition and hydration could have led to them no longer being in full possession of the means required to ensure smooth and safe activities or the physical safety of children in their care." Nicole Varet, an aide to the mayor, said the concerns reflected a case three years ago when a child was seriously hurt in an accident resulting from a fasting camp employee becoming ill while driving. Samir said being paid up to the end of his contract date was unimportant. "I wanted to stay until the end of summer camp," he said. "It was all running to perfection and it is just not right to be suspended for this reason." Mr Yanat, the monitors' lawyer, said the council had no right to interpret conformity with French principles of secularism as denying them the freedom to practice their faith. "The analogy of the woman on a diet is hypocritical because every day at summer camps, there are monitors on diets or children who refuse broccoli or some other food and nothing is done about it." He added that there was no scientific evidence to show fasting during Ramadan, observed in France between 5am and 9.30pm, stopped people performing their professional duties. "You need only to look at the Olympic Games where Muslim athletes are competing at the highest level despite also observing Ramadan," said Mr Yanat, though Muslim participants in London have given conflicting accounts of the effects of fasting and whether - or, in some cases, when - they would abstain

[shaykh1985]

Btw can the title be changed to suspended from jobs...

[spinDoc]

As some one said in a thread about saudi arabia ................there country ..there rules

[chacha kashmiri]

I wouldn't mind being given a month off, i'm sure all muslims around the world would appreciate the month off during ramadhan

Are they getting paid leave?

[amateurdentist]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-p...456325751.html

China curbs Ramadan fasting in Xinjiang
Authorities forbid Communist Party cadres, civil officials and students from marking Ramadan in mainly Muslim province.


Chinese authorities in the northwestern province of Xinjiang have banned Muslim officials and students from fasting during the month of Ramadan, prompting an exiled rights group to warn of new violence.

Guidance posted on numerous government websites called on Communist Party leaders to restrict Muslim religious activities during the holy month, including fasting and visiting mosques.

Xinjiang is home to about nine million Uighurs, largely a Muslim ethnic minority, many of whom accuse China's leaders of religious and political persecution.

The region has been rocked by repeated outbreaks of ethnic violence, but China denies claims of repression and relies on tens of thousands of Uighur officials to help it govern the province.

A statement from Zonglang township in Xinjiang's Kashgar district said that "the county committee has issued comprehensive policies on maintaining social stability during the Ramadan period.

"It is forbidden for Communist Party cadres, civil officials (including those who have retired) and students to participate in Ramadan religious activities."

The statement, posted on the Xinjiang government website, urged party leaders to bring "gifts" of food to local village leaders to ensure that they were eating during Ramadan.

Similar orders on curbing Ramadan activities were posted on other local government websites, with the educational bureau of Wensu county urging schools to ensure that students do not enter mosques during Ramadan.

'Administrative methods'

During Ramadan, Muslims fast from dawn to dusk and strive to be more closer to God, pious and charitable.

An exiled rights group, the World Uyghur Congress, warned the policy would force "the Uighur people to resist [Chinese rule] even further."

"By banning fasting during Ramadan, China is using administrative methods to force the Uighur people to eat in an effort to break the fasting," said group spokesman Dilshat Rexit in a statement.

Xinjiang saw its worst ethnic violence in recent times in July, 2009, when Uighurs attacked members of the nation's dominant Han ethnic group in the city of Urumqi, sparking clashes in which 200 people from both sides died, according to the government.

[Bilal7]

What in the hell is wrong with these people? I mean the camp authorities do have some sort of excuse even though I'm sure there is an element of prejudice behind their actions. China don't have any sort of excuse. Sickening.

As some one said in a thread about saudi arabia ................there country ..there rules

Way to prove yourself the better man. So I think it is now clear that there is no freedom of religion that France, a 'secular' country practices. Hypocrites.

[Down2Earth]

sorry but where children's safety is concerned, they should always be protected by those that are fully fit.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri I wouldn't mind being given a month off, i'm sure all muslims around the world would appreciate the month off during ramadhan Are they getting paid leave?

Yeah suspended with full pay...honestly don't understand what the issue is...they have a rational legitimate reason for suspending them without pay...fasting for 18hours will effect your ability to work so an employer will rightfully be concerned...

Would you want a fasting surgeon to treat your child?...there are some very rational arguments that a secular society can make...

Hell some guys on here think its fine for athletes to eat food to do something useless like play sport...why shouldn't employers in jobs that actually matter feel the same way about improving the productivity of their business...

[Bilal7]

If its suspended with full pay then I don't find any problem. If they don't want their employees to work and still pay them in full, then their loss or gain, depending on how you view fasting.

China doesn't have an excuse.

[shan]

"Nicole Varet, an aide to the mayor, said the concerns reflected a case three years ago when a child was seriously hurt in an accident resulting from a fasting camp employee becoming ill while driving."

Dont put lives of others in danger, fasting is difficult these days even without working.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 If its suspended with full pay then I don't find any problem. If they don't want their employees to work and still pay them in full, then their loss or gain, depending on how you view fasting. China doesn't have an excuse.

Would you see a problem if they were sacked?...should an employer not have a right to expect the best performance of his employees especially when the safety of others is involved?...

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 Yeah suspended with full pay...honestly don't understand what the issue is...they have a rational legitimate reason for suspending them without pay...fasting for 18hours will effect your ability to work so an employer will rightfully be concerned... Would you want a fasting surgeon to treat your child?...there are some very rational arguments that a secular society can make... Hell some guys on here think its fine for athletes to eat food to do something useless like play sport...why shouldn't employers in jobs that actually matter feel the same way about improving the productivity of their business...

These are employed in a summer camp, what has surgeons got to do with this? Is there any evidence working and fasting in a summer camp would effect their work? If so please provide this evidence? France has a recent history of discrimination against Muslims, the case here again it seems.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 Would you see a problem if they were sacked?...should an employer not have a right to expect the best performance of his employees especially when the safety of others is involved?...

If they were sacked then my previous outburst regarding prejudice and bigotry would have been fair.

Islam has given Muslims the right to break their fast if they risk their health and well-being so there is no issue of safety here.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC These are employed in a summer camp, what has surgeons got to do with this? Is there any evidence working and fasting in a summer camp would effect their work? If so please provide this evidence? France has a recent history of discrimination against Muslims, the case here again it seems.

Read the article...and I will let you think about your own comments regarding the sportsmen...I'm gonna play devils advocate here :-) ...

The employers position:

"This lack of nutrition and hydration could have led to them no longer being in full possession of the means required to ensure smooth and safe activities or the physical safety of children in their care."

Nicole Varet, an aide to the mayor, said the concerns reflected a case three years ago when a child was seriously hurt in an accident resulting from a fasting camp employee becoming ill while driving.

Its a fairly reasonable position...you expect your employees to be able to do their jobs properly...you don't eat for 18 hours you won't do it as well as someone who doesn't fast...

Anyhow lets look at the defence:

He added that there was no scientific evidence to show fasting during Ramadan, observed in France between 5am and 9.30pm, stopped people performing their professional duties. "You need only to look at the Olympic Games where Muslim athletes are competing at the highest level despite also observing Ramadan,"

Lol now remember what you said about the athletes?...they do something useless in tangible terms yet they are expected to not fast...its a sportsman job to perform so they dont fast...so on what basis do you criticise an employer for not wanting people who fast...they were told to eat...they said no...and they were given a ridiculous suspension with pay when really they can very reasonably have been sacked...

[UP]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC These are employed in a summer camp, what has surgeons got to do with this? Is there any evidence working and fasting in a summer camp would effect their work? If so please provide this evidence? France has a recent history of discrimination against Muslims, the case here again it seems.

Their country, their rules/laws. As people said in Saudi Arabia thread.

Doesn't Pakistan discriminates daily against the Ahmadis and other minorities?

Oh wait, a constitution was filed in 1970's against the minorities.

Majority of the people in Pakistan are fine with the killings of Shias & Ahmadis but when it comes to France - every Muslim boils up. Why?

How about we fix our own house first...

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 If they were sacked then my previous outburst regarding prejudice and bigotry would have been fair. Islam has given Muslims the right to break their fast if they risk their health and well-being so there is no issue of safety here.

What if their job precludes them looking after others?...surely an employer has a right to want staff who aren't avoiding food and drink for 18hrs at a summer camp...its hard work, in a hot environment where staff work with children...

Its the Muslims right to keep his fast but its also the employers right to say I would rather employ someone who isn't fasting...

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 Read the article...and I will let you think about your own comments regarding the sportsmen...I'm gonna play devils advocate here :-) ... The employers position: "This lack of nutrition and hydration could have led to them no longer being in full possession of the means required to ensure smooth and safe activities or the physical safety of children in their care." Nicole Varet, an aide to the mayor, said the concerns reflected a case three years ago when a child was seriously hurt in an accident resulting from a fasting camp employee becoming ill while driving. Its a fairly reasonable position...you expect your employees to be able to do their jobs properly...you don't eat for 18 hours you won't do it as well as someone who doesn't fast... Anyhow lets look at the defence: He added that there was no scientific evidence to show fasting during Ramadan, observed in France between 5am and 9.30pm, stopped people performing their professional duties. "You need only to look at the Olympic Games where Muslim athletes are competing at the highest level despite also observing Ramadan," Lol now remember what you said about the athletes?...they do something useless in tangible terms yet they are expected to not fast...its a sportsman job to perform so they dont fast...so on what basis do you criticise an employer for not wanting people who fast...they were told to eat...they said no...and they were given a ridiculous suspension with pay when really they can very reasonably have been sacked...

How drastically will their performance deteriorate? Like I have already said, if they get to the point where their fasting will risk their health and the safety of others, they are well within their rights to break it.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 What if their job precludes them looking after others?...surely an employer has a right to want staff who aren't avoiding food and drink for 18hrs at a summer camp...its hard work, in a hot environment where staff work with children... Its the Muslims right to keep his fast but its also the employers right to say I would rather employ someone who isn't fasting...

So you would rather employ someone who isn't a Muslim? Discrimination?

How about if I say that I won't employ any Hindu because they don't eat meat and thus don't have enough protein intake?

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by UP Their country, their rules/laws. As people said in Saudi Arabia thread. Doesn't Pakistan discriminates daily against the Ahmadis and other minorities? Oh wait, a constitution was filed in 1970's against the minorities. Majority of the people in Pakistan are fine with the killings of Shias & Ahmadis but when it comes to France - every Muslim boils up. Why? How about we fix our own house first...

Pakistan is termed as a terrorist state that needs to get civilised.
France is termed as a secular state that looks after others and should be an ideal model for other countries.

It is the hypocrisy that burns me.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 Read the article...and I will let you think about your own comments regarding the sportsmen...I'm gonna play devils advocate here :-) ... The employers position: "This lack of nutrition and hydration could have led to them no longer being in full possession of the means required to ensure smooth and safe activities or the physical safety of children in their care." Nicole Varet, an aide to the mayor, said the concerns reflected a case three years ago when a child was seriously hurt in an accident resulting from a fasting camp employee becoming ill while driving. Its a fairly reasonable position...you expect your employees to be able to do their jobs properly...you don't eat for 18 hours you won't do it as well as someone who doesn't fast... Anyhow lets look at the defence: He added that there was no scientific evidence to show fasting during Ramadan, observed in France between 5am and 9.30pm, stopped people performing their professional duties. "You need only to look at the Olympic Games where Muslim athletes are competing at the highest level despite also observing Ramadan,"

lol, Right so from surgeons you move to athletes, still not the same as working in a summer camp is it? Exactly there is no evidence, just opinion of a mayor. A mayor is a public official of Le France(in this case the mayor aide does the talking), a well known nation who has discriminated against Muslims.

Lol now remember what you said about the athletes?...they do something useless in tangible terms yet they are expected to not fast...its a sportsman job to perform so they dont fast...so on what basis do you criticise an employer for not wanting people who fast...they were told to eat...they said no...and they were given a ridiculous suspension with pay when really they can very reasonably have been sacked...

Yes I do because imo this is nothing but more Islamaphobic discrimination by the French. Again nothing comparable to what Athletes decide to do for themselves. One is a forced rule, the other a personal decision.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 How drastically will their performance deteriorate? Like I have already said, if they get to the point where their fasting will risk their health and the safety of others, they are well within their rights to break it.

Well we have a lot of people on here who feel it is justifiable for some guy to break his fast so he can hit a cricket ball around...how much will his performance deteriorate?...why can a cricket association demand something without criticism...but an employer who works in an industry which involves children is suddenly someone to criticise because they don't want performance to deteriorate at all?...

Please do tell me at what point someone is risking the health of others?...its a subjective thing no?...so can an employers not pre-empt and simply demand that his workers not fast if they want to work...18hrs working with children doing activities in hot weather can very reasonably be argued as potentially leaving children in an unsafe environment...and an unsafe environment that can potentially be prevented...

Btw I am not asking the brothers in question to start eating...I am simply stating that an employer can very reasonably make an argument that his workers not fast...

Lets provide another scenario...can a sales manager sack his salesmen for performing badly while fasting?...

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC lol, Right so from surgeons you move to athletes, still not the same as working in a summer camp is it? Exactly there is no evidence, just opinion of a mayor. A mayor is a public official of Le France(in this case the mayor aide does the talking), a well known nation who has discriminated against Muslims. Yes I do because imo this is nothing but more Islamaphobic discrimination by the French. Again nothing comparable to what Athletes decide to do for themselves. One is a forced rule, the other a personal decision.

You ever worked in a summer camp?...its not easy work...certainly not for someone doing a long fast...

It doesn't really matter if France discriminates against Muslims...that much is known already...the point is there are very reasonable arguments to make for sacking someone who doesn't eat or drink for 18hours...

The Muslims btw in this example are sitting at home paid...so in this instance theres not really much to criticise...i'm simply saying if they weren't paid there are legitimate arguments for it...

You didn't actually make a decent defence for sportsmen btw in the other thread...but lets rearrange that question...if the nations Sports Federation stated that athletes couldn't fast...and that only athletes who wouldn't fast would be sent to the Olympics...would you see that as discriminatory or a committee trying to ensure it got as a good performance as it could during the Olympics?...

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 You ever worked in a summer camp?...its not easy work...certainly not for someone doing a long fast...

No but I would assume I've done harder work while fasting which involved more physical energy and actually managed better than those who weren't fasting. We have already established there is no evidence but the mind of the mayor.

It doesn't really matter if France discriminates against Muslims...that much is known already...the point is there are very reasonable arguments to make for sacking someone who doesn't eat or drink for 18hours...

No there is no reasonable argument unless there is sufficient evidence. You can't base a reasonable argument based on your personal opinion or the mayors office.

The Muslims btw in this example are sitting at home paid...so in this instance theres not really much to criticise...i'm simply saying if they weren't paid there are legitimate arguments for it... You didn't actually make a decent defence for sportsmen btw in the other thread...but lets rearrange that question...if the nations Sports Federation stated that athletes couldn't fast...and that only athletes who wouldn't fast would be sent to the Olympics...would you see that as discriminatory or a committee trying to ensure it got as a good performance as it could during the Olympics?...

You should join the feds bro, good at asking questions but not so at answering them. But since you bring a lot to the table, I'll answer again.

Around 1/3 of competing athletes in this years Olympics are Muslims. Telling people they have to eat in order to compete is of course discriminatory as there is no basis or grounds for such a rule to be applied esp when most if not all chose not to fast. Most athletes are there on merit, doesn't matter how they perform in the Olympics, they deserve to be there. If such an idiotic rule came in to play, a simple enough threat to boycott by all 1/3 athletes would put an end to such are farce of a ruling.

[DeadlyVenom]

There is probably a slight performance drop in productivity from an employee during Ramadan, however I highly doubt it is enough to mean that person is so messed up through fasting that he becomes a danger to others.

Can a manager demand his employees don't fast? No. Its a lifestyle choice and employers cant really legislate what you do in your private life. He can't demand things from his employees as where would it stop?

He can however sack people if there is a visible and credible deterioration in performance and thats fair enough.

[amateurdentist]

dont doctors also fast during ramadhan? that also includes surgeons carrying out emergency surgeries. excuses given by the french are absurd

[Nitin Tomer]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 How about if I say that I won't employ any Hindu because they don't eat meat and thus don't have enough protein intake?

I am a Hindu and I can eat what you can't.

[Kwremb]

Originally Posted by Nitin Tomer I am a Hindu and I can eat what you can't.

Please quite a few Hindus are vegans

[Nitin Tomer]

Originally Posted by Kwremb Please quite a few Hindus are vegans

Very, very few are vegans.

A minority is vegetarian.

A sizable minority is eggetarian.

Majority are carnivores.

You guys have a very limited knowledge about Hindus. Even among Brahmins, there are only very few who are vegetarians. Mythili Pandits (from Bihar) are hard-core non-veg; Saraswat Brahmins from Maharashtra cook the best fish one can ever have, Kashmiri Pandits cook excellent mutton

And of course, as I said I can eat what even you guys can't

[Kwremb]

Originally Posted by Nitin Tomer Very, very few are vegans. A minority is vegetarian. A sizable minority is eggetarian. Majority are carnivores. You guys have a very limited knowledge about Hindus. Even among Brahmins, there are only very few who are vegetarians. Mythili Pandits (from Bihar) are hard-core non-veg; Saraswat Brahmins from Maharashtra cook the best fish one can ever have, Kashmiri Pandits cook excellent mutton And of course, as I said I can eat what even you guys can't

Pretty sure even among the meat eating majority quite a few don't eat beef for 'I can eat what even you guys can't'

[Nitin Tomer]

Originally Posted by Kwremb Pretty sure even among the meat eating majority quite a few don't eat beef for 'I can eat what even you guys can't'

You are again assuming things Not eating beef is majorly a north-India upper caste phenomenon. Lower castes everywhere; and even upper castes elsewhere do eat beef.

And I am again boasting - I can eat what even you guys can't

[Kwremb]

Originally Posted by Nitin Tomer You are again assuming things Not eating beef is majorly a north-India upper caste phenomenon. Lower castes everywhere; and even upper castes elsewhere do eat beef. And I am again boasting - I can eat what even you guys can't

I have quite a few South Indian hindu friends here and some of them are vegans and none of them eat beef. From my experience they're averse to meat in general.

[Nitin Tomer]

Originally Posted by Kwremb I have quite a few South Indian hindu friends here and some of them are vegans and none of them eat beef. From my experience they're averse to meat in general.

Tamil Brahmins (Iyers and Iyengars) are some of the most orthodox. But on the other hand, other castes from Tamilnadu, Kerla and Andhra Pradesh are hard-core carnivores...

[Kwremb]

Originally Posted by Nitin Tomer Tamil Brahmins (Iyers and Iyengars) are some of the most orthodox. But on the other hand, other castes from Tamilnadu, Kerla and Andhra Pradesh are hard-core carnivores...

Don't know about castes and stuff(but 2 are tamil I think and they're vegans) but that's my experience, never seen them eat beef.

[Nitin Tomer]

Originally Posted by Kwremb Don't know about castes and stuff(but 2 are tamil I think and they're vegans) but that's my experience, never seen them eat beef.

Vegans? I think you mean vegetarians?

And believe me, many Hindus eat beef. Hinduism is a very tolerant religion, there are such restrictions on it's followers. It is mostly people's own choice to be vegetarian or not eat beef.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by Nitin Tomer I am a Hindu and I can eat what you can't.

Not a very good one!

I'm seriously not finding abstaining from Pork difficult. Have fun eating a pig!

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 Well we have a lot of people on here who feel it is justifiable for some guy to break his fast so he can hit a cricket ball around...how much will his performance deteriorate?...why can a cricket association demand something without criticism...but an employer who works in an industry which involves children is suddenly someone to criticise because they don't want performance to deteriorate at all?... Please do tell me at what point someone is risking the health of others?...its a subjective thing no?...so can an employers not pre-empt and simply demand that his workers not fast if they want to work...18hrs working with children doing activities in hot weather can very reasonably be argued as potentially leaving children in an unsafe environment...and an unsafe environment that can potentially be prevented... Btw I am not asking the brothers in question to start eating...I am simply stating that an employer can very reasonably make an argument that his workers not fast... Lets provide another scenario...can a sales manager sack his salesmen for performing badly while fasting?...

Lets see. Playing in a field for 13+ hours in the middle of the English summer over two days or working in a summer camp. I think it is safe to say that the cricketers have a valid excuse and plus for the likes of Hashim Amla, they are travelling which is an even better one.

I seriously can't see how a salesman would be risking his health by fasting. Fasting during school days is a lot, lot harder and I have done that and its no biggie.

[Nitin Tomer]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Not a very good one! I'm seriously not finding abstaining from Pork difficult. Have fun eating a pig!

Apne pe aaya tu bura laga?

You were the one commented on Hindus being vegetarians. Well they too don't find it difficult to abstain from meat.

[jusarrived]

tbh most people use it as an excuse for not working , its not such a big deal .

[Zaz]

Absolute idiotic to assume someone cant do their job because they are fasting

Yes if its proven or performance actually drops then the employers can make such demands but to assume it will happen is absolutely diabolical

[Nitin Tomer]

I will give you guys something to ponder over. I am building my house' upper floor in my home town - Bulandshahar. The contractor is a muslim named Nadeem. Usually the laborers he brings have an equal sprinkling of Hindus and Muslims. Yesterday I had an off due to Rakhi and went to home town. There I noticed that there were no muslim laborers. I asked Nadeem the reason and he told me that due to fasting, he avoids muslim laborers during ramadan...

[the Great Khan]

Originally Posted by Nitin Tomer I will give you guys something to ponder over. I am building my house' upper floor in my home town - Bulandshahar. The contractor is a muslim named Nadeem. Usually the laborers he brings have an equal sprinkling of Hindus and Muslims. Yesterday I had an off due to Rakhi and went to home town. There I noticed that there were no muslim laborers. I asked Nadeem the reason and he told me that due to fasting, he avoids muslim laborers during ramadan...

Oh dear lord...do you ever stop?

so please make your point without this nonsense. You agree with the french decision yes or no?

[Markhor]

To be fair you can understand their reasoning. You simply cannot take any chances when the health and wellbeing of children are involved.

Looking after children is extremely difficult, especially if they are running around in this summer camp, its bound to be hot and the monitors need to be hydrated and have the energy to physically run around after the brats.

[the Great Khan]

Originally Posted by Markhor To be fair you can understand their reasoning. You simply cannot take any chances when the health and wellbeing of children are involved. Looking after children is extremely difficult, especially if they are running around in this summer camp, its bound to be hot and the monitors need to be hydrated and have the energy to physically run around after the brats.

the problem is there wasnt a problem! if they ahd fallen voer and become dehydrated etc then fair enough but as referenced above the camp was going well and there werent any issues! We can also assume that they have done this work before like last year. It is a clear case of discrimination. Glad I dont live in france, but if I did I would leave!

[nish_mate]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan the problem is there wasnt a problem! if they ahd fallen voer and become dehydrated etc then fair enough but as referenced above the camp was going well and there werent any issues! We can also assume that they have done this work before like last year. It is a clear case of discrimination. Glad I dont live in france, but if I did I would leave!

TGK to be fair to the French- staff have been suspended on fully pay and benefits till the end of the fast.

Dont see it much of a discrimination that you been given time off for observing your religion.

Also reading above it appears as though your stance would have changed if something had happened? IMHO it would have made for more right wing newspaper statement "Muslim causes injury to kids bla bla bla"

[Markhor]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan the problem is there wasnt a problem! if they ahd fallen voer and become dehydrated etc then fair enough but as referenced above the camp was going well and there werent any issues! We can also assume that they have done this work before like last year. It is a clear case of discrimination. Glad I dont live in france, but if I did I would leave!

The person who said the camp was going well was one of the suspended employees so he's not necessarily an impartial opinion.

I don't have children, but I have looked after the children of relatives - when not fasting and that itself was rather tiring.

Now if I have been fasting, in the hot French summer, for 18 hours, I would find looking after those children, who are very young, perhaps hyperactive, running around outside in this summer camp, very exhausting and I would not be able to look after them to the best of my abilities.

When one's physical wellbeing becomes impaired, when one's mental judgement becomes impaired due to the rigours of an extremely long fast - you are putting those children at danger.

There has been a prior case where such a situation arised:

Nicole Varet, an aide to the mayor, said the concerns reflected a case three years ago when a child was seriously hurt in an accident resulting from a fasting camp employee becoming ill while driving.

The parents of these children are placing their trust, and their children's wellbeing into the hands of the monitors of the camp. In return, the monitors should be able to guarantee that they are able to perform their tasks to the best of their ability.

You don't need scientific evidence to know that running around after children all day, whilst not eating and drinking for 18 hours is a very draining and stressful task - so the monitors cannot guarantee 100% performance/concentration to those children's parents.

You simply cannot gamble with a child's health - and as the poster above mentions, at least for this year - now that the Muslim workers have been suspended with full pay - it prevents giving the bigots in French politics the ammunition to further attack the Muslim community over there - it avoids the sensationalist headlines in the right-wing media like 'Fasting Muslim injures child' headlines or such inevitable BS.

OK if it is discrimination, maybe there is an agenda - its a Communist -run council so maybe there could be an element of that. Obviously discrimination should be abhorred and condemned and I'm no fan of the French government's overly secularist and at times downright discriminatory policies on Islam but from the article and using common sense and one's own experience of taking care of children, you can understand their perspective.

[ElRaja]

why make generalisations, if someones performances does not drop if they are fasting then dont bother them, but if you can see someone is not performing to an acceptable level then i dont see why the employer should give them any special treatment. requesting them to not fast in the latter case is perfect reasonable imo.

surely it is lazy management to say there should be a blanket arrangement, good managers should be aware of the level of performance of people under them and to make decisions based upon there own judgement or some empirical measure for a target based job.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by ElRaja why make generalisations, if someones performances does not drop if they are fasting then dont bother them, but if you can see someone is not performing to an acceptable level then i dont see why the employer should give them any special treatment. requesting them to not fast in the latter case is perfect reasonable imo. surely it is lazy management to say there should be a blanket arrangement, good managers should be aware of the level of performance of people under them and to make decisions based upon there own judgement or some empirical measure for a target based job.

Top post.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Markhor The person who said the camp was going well was one of the suspended employees so he's not necessarily an impartial opinion. I don't have children, but I have looked after the children of relatives - when not fasting and that itself was rather tiring. Now if I have been fasting, in the hot French summer, for 18 hours, I would find looking after those children, who are very young, perhaps hyperactive, running around outside in this summer camp, very exhausting and I would not be able to look after them to the best of my abilities. When one's physical wellbeing becomes impaired, when one's mental judgement becomes impaired due to the rigours of an extremely long fast - you are putting those children at danger. There has been a prior case where such a situation arised: The parents of these children are placing their trust, and their children's wellbeing into the hands of the monitors of the camp. In return, the monitors should be able to guarantee that they are able to perform their tasks to the best of their ability. You don't need scientific evidence to know that running around after children all day, whilst not eating and drinking for 18 hours is a very draining and stressful task - so the monitors cannot guarantee 100% performance/concentration to those children's parents. You simply cannot gamble with a child's health - and as the poster above mentions, at least for this year - now that the Muslim workers have been suspended with full pay - it prevents giving the bigots in French politics the ammunition to further attack the Muslim community over there - it avoids the sensationalist headlines in the right-wing media like 'Fasting Muslim injures child' headlines or such inevitable BS. OK if it is discrimination, maybe there is an agenda - its a Communist -run council so maybe there could be an element of that. Obviously discrimination should be abhorred and condemned and I'm no fan of the French government's overly secularist and at times downright discriminatory policies on Islam but from the article and using common sense and one's own experience of taking care of children, you can understand their perspective.

Top post...

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Lets see. Playing in a field for 13+ hours in the middle of the English summer over two days or working in a summer camp. I think it is safe to say that the cricketers have a valid excuse and plus for the likes of Hashim Amla, they are travelling which is an even better one. I seriously can't see how a salesman would be risking his health by fasting. Fasting during school days is a lot, lot harder and I have done that and its no biggie.

Lol you haven't worked with children have you?...

Speaking as someone who has worked with children over the summer its a very demanding role...a lot of activities...constant work and your often outdoors...having to do an 18hr fast whilst looking after children is no doddle however you want to portray it...

You also completely missed the point about the salesman...I stated that performance can suffer hence does an employer have the right to sack someone whos performances suffer while they fast...its a performance related job after all...

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC No but I would assume I've done harder work while fasting which involved more physical energy and actually managed better than those who weren't fasting. We have already established there is no evidence but the mind of the mayor. No there is no reasonable argument unless there is sufficient evidence. You can't base a reasonable argument based on your personal opinion or the mayors office. You should join the feds bro, good at asking questions but not so at answering them. But since you bring a lot to the table, I'll answer again. Around 1/3 of competing athletes in this years Olympics are Muslims. Telling people they have to eat in order to compete is of course discriminatory as there is no basis or grounds for such a rule to be applied esp when most if not all chose not to fast. Most athletes are there on merit, doesn't matter how they perform in the Olympics, they deserve to be there. If such an idiotic rule came in to play, a simple enough threat to boycott by all 1/3 athletes would put an end to such are farce of a ruling.

I have answered your questions...you just don't agree with me...

I don't think it would be a farce of a ruling for an Olympic committee to demand that all its members not fast while competing...its a performance related business after all...there is NOTHING discriminatory if such a rule were in place...thats my answer...

My other answer was sportsmen do nothing special to warrant an exemption...and I have already explained my reasoning for that on another thread...

I have also stated my position here...its the Muslims decision whether he wants to fast or not while he works...it is however an employees prerogative to dismiss that person because i'm sure you will agree...fasting does lead to a decline in performance...its really not hard to understand...you accept it for sportsmen but apparently no other profession can suffer from fasting?...

The evidence is that fasting DOES effect your ability to do your job...its not rocket science that 18hours in the sun looking after children without food and drink will be detrimental to the workers performance...are you honestly going to say otherwise?...

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom There is probably a slight performance drop in productivity from an employee during Ramadan, however I highly doubt it is enough to mean that person is so messed up through fasting that he becomes a danger to others. Can a manager demand his employees don't fast? No. Its a lifestyle choice and employers cant really legislate what you do in your private life. He can't demand things from his employees as where would it stop? He can however sack people if there is a visible and credible deterioration in performance and thats fair enough.

There are some valid points here...heres the thing...if something bad does happen to a child at the camp under the supervision of someone fasting...could the company be liable for allowing members of their workforce to work when possibly being underpar...should a company pre-empt?...

If your private life impacts your work then it becomes part of your employers business...if you come to work hungover everyday then your public life leaves you at risk of being dismissed...

Summer camp is not straightforward work...its perfectly reasonable to believe that performances suffered while working...or that performance may suffer which is not a good thing when your looking after children...

[Ruri]

Employer has the right. It's not the french, it's a french employer. And people are saying nothing is happening, well that was what one suspended person (on FULL PAY) was saying. There is precedence for a fasting aide having caused harm to the kids in his care. Why would you let it get to that situation?

Discrimination? Discrimination would be if they were openly fired without pay for fasting. But the employers are still paying them, and protecting their main assets, the kids.