Are the mass graves of Kashmir less heinous because they are the handiwork of a democ

[soton]

Recently, I came across the work of Slovenian poet Tomaz Salamun and found myself unexpectedly distressed, even outraged, after reading his short poem Not the War. In the words “Not the murder, silence brings one back to the scene of the crime”, Salamun is perhaps talking of love. But I am thinking war, and am transported back home, to Kashmir, to scenes of nameless burials and sites of extra-judicial killings.

I was angry at the silence of the Indian State, and more crucially perhaps, the hushedness of the country’s vibrant civil society, at the discovery of thousands of unmarked graves in troubled Jammu & Kashmir. It has been nearly a year since the State Human Rights Commission (SHRC), a human rights body appointed by the state government, released an extensive report on the presence of 2,156 bullet-ridden bodies in unmarked graves in the border districts. It confirmed what a local rights group, the International People’s Tribunal of Kashmir, had revealed in a landmark investigation in 2008. Hundreds of the bodies were of men described as “unidentified militants”, killed in fighting with the armed forces during the armed insurrection of the 1990s. But, according to the report, at least 574 of them were of those “identified as local Kashmiri residents”.

Like many Kashmiris and Indians, I waited for something to happen—international outrage perhaps, a furore, a commission of inquiry and, one might be forgiven for thinking, even the possibility of justice—for the State cannot exonerate itself from its responsibility of delivering justice with a mere investigation. (Surely, one doesn’t hear too often of mass graves these days, except perhaps those of the Balkan conflict of the 1990s or of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq!) But, apart from news reports in the Indian and the international press, and the local administration’s vague talk of a truth and reconciliation commission—I wonder how one can reconcile in the absence of truth—nothing significant has happened.

Kashmiris have, of course, always known that the hundreds of Kashmiri men who disappeared, mostly in the 1990s, but also in subsequent years, did not vanish into thin air—they were buried, unaccounted and unrecorded, in nameless graves in the Himalayan tracks near the LoC. We have also known that not all of them were combatants killed in fighting with the armed forces. Many of them were victims of fake encounters and extra-judicial killings, as has been revealed in the many cases of men previously described as “dreaded militants” found to be innocents killed for medals or money. In one appalling instance of wilful perversion of justice—the Pathribal fake encounter of March 2000, around the time US president Bill Clinton was to visit India—the Indian State has so far refused to prosecute army officers involved in the premeditated murder of five innocent men portrayed as terrorists who had massacred 35 Sikhs of Kashmir. This, when the Central Bureau of Investigation has submitted evidence that the men were “killed in cold blood”. Many in Kashmir have reconciled to the idea that justice may never be done, the guilty may never be punished and grieving relatives may be condemned to Sisyphean waiting.

The publication of the SHRC report last year, confirming the presence of unmarked graves at 38 sites near the mountains of Kashmir, while reopening old wounds also gave fresh hope to the kin of those who had disappeared—that there may be some closure after all; that the Indian State may, in a rare moral turn, address one of the darkest chapters of the 22-year-old uprising against its rule in Kashmir; that it may finally be willing to listen to what rights groups, journalists and the parents of the missing have been saying for years.



Surely one does not hear of mass graves too often these days, unless they are those of Saddam’s iraq or the Balkan conflict? So why the silence over those found in a Democracy’s garden?


The report came out last August, and the same commission subsequently ordered a further probe, citing the presence of nearly 3,000 more graves in the remote districts of Poonch and Rajouri—some allegedly with multiple bodies in them. But apart from one impassioned editorial expressing shame, a couple of speciously-framed TV shows attempting, among other things, equivalence between the all-powerful state and a beleaguered people, the media, while running the story, largely ignored the issue. “There is every probability that these unidentified dead bodies buried in various unmarked graves at 38 places of north Kashmir may contain the dead bodies of enforced disappearances,” the SHRC report had said. How can we not, then, express outrage over what could potentially constitute evidence of crimes against humanity? We’d do that if, say, the graves were made in Tripoli, under a dictatorship, wouldn’t we? Somehow, and for reasons unknown, unmarked graves (some with only heads in them) found in the disputed backyard of the world’s largest democracy have been deemed not heinous enough. Are we to assume mass graves made in a democracy are somehow more humane?
Does not such a discovery merit even a customary response from the Indian State? As far as I remember, there has been no official comment by the Central government in Delhi, so deeply entrenched is India’s policy of indifference and denial on Kashmir. And what of its intellectual classes who were on site, and rightly so, when India signed the UN resolution against Sri Lanka for its atrocities against Tamil civilians during the campaign against the ltte? If the conscience of a nation is not stirred by the discovery of thousands of nameless burials in what it claims as an integral part, the claim not only rings hollow, it was and will only ever remain a claim.

In recent months, some well-meaning commentators and Kashmir experts have started talking about moving on, about the dividends of peace, about economics as opposed to politics—as though these dual aspects were congenitally detached. This is more or less consistent with the outpourings of some members of India’s new class of beat intellectuals—they move from issue to issue, or studio to studio, with equal panache—and their callousness towards the tragedy of Kashmir is matched only by their disdain for even contemporary history. Perhaps the most serious and bizarrely anti-intellectual assertion, and therefore an insidious one, seems to project the idea of peace as somehow incompatible with the idea of justice, and those who demand it as some kind of violence fetishists—as though talking about massacres stems democracy and progress.

In the Indian establishment—and indeed the political philosophy espoused in statist writing on Kashmir employs language disturbingly reminiscent of an ‘establishment project’—there has been a sudden spurt in conversations around the ‘dividends of peace’ in Kashmir. This is, of course, not possible without the buy-in of a thriving comprador class in the conflict-torn land. Translated into realpolitik, this otherwise benign phrase seems to convey to a subject population that it is time they forgot their long-held aspirations for freedom, as also about possible crimes committed by a state that has been nothing but militaristic in its dealings with them. The jackboot comes draped in a flag emblazoned with the words “Let bygones be bygones”.

As for the talk of a truth and reconciliation commission to close the story of unmarked graves, while it is unambiguously noble in its pacifist aspirations and surely the right thing to do to assuage the pain of a people, it seems ludicrously premature in a place that is run by a system of repression. (It must be noted that, for all practical purposes, the Indian State and its client elites operate without a moral system in Kashmir.) One is, again, compelled to ask some elementary questions: truth and reconciliation, yes, but on who on whose terms? Can it mean anything if the terms are set by a repressive state? One hates to suspect this, but the people who tout this as a solution may not even fully understand the import of the phrase and have perhaps forgotten that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa came into effect after the end of apartheid, not while it was in full play. Even if one were to make an attempt to attend to the views of those who preach “moving on”, a single, simple, inquiry stands in the way: How does one move on from thousands of graves in one’s front garden?


http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?281223

[KingKhanWC]

What the Indian occupying forces have done and are continuing to do in Kashmir is a slow genocide. You can't kill so many people and call it anything else.

India is not a democracy, it's a hypocrisy. If it advocated democracy it would have implemented the right to self determination promised to the Kashmiri's but instead it never had any intentions so comes out with all kinds of excuses blaming others. It can't blame others for the rapes, murders and torture it has layed on the Kashmiri people over the years.

The article writer can forget about the wider world or the so called International community coming forward as it did against Libya or as it's calling for against Syria because they are the biggest hypocrites and liars the world has ever seen. The western elite powers led by the United States of Terrorism only have self interest at mind, the whole saviour of humanity is just a load of BS only a moron would believe.

[jeetu]

These Kashmiris are to blame for themselves when they started killing minority community community and forced them to move from their land. Pakistan involvement in giving these people arms pretty much killed international community support. These militants are reaping what they sow.

[Ambi]

Originally Posted by jeetu These Kashmiris are to blame for themselves when they started killing minority community community and forced them to move from their land. Pakistan involvement in giving these people arms pretty much killed international community support. These militants are reaping what they sow.

owned

[g00g1y]

Originally Posted by jeetu These Kashmiris are to blame for themselves when they started killing minority community community and forced them to move from their land. Pakistan involvement in giving these people arms pretty much killed international community support. These militants are reaping what they sow.

Huh! A total of 219 pandits were killed by militants and more than 150000 kashmiri muslims were killed by indian army and still counting.

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by g00g1y Huh! A total of 219 pandits were killed by militants and more than 150000 kashmiri muslims were killed by indian army and still counting

Any kind of killing is wrong. Are you saying it's okay to kill 219 pandits (if we take your number) ?


Secondly, I am not advocating or justifying any killing nor I recognize any party's authorization on Kashmir.

I feel when you start a armed conflict against a state and army gets involved, there is no way we can avoid this. Isn't there human right violations in Pakistan by Pakistani Army ? Isn't it being done by Nato ?

Though it is not justified but unavoidable.

If we are blaming the army for human right violations in Kashmir, in the same line those are also to be blamed,

1. Who started millitancy
2. who supported them with arms and money instead of trying to resolve it politically.

Didn't they think that innocent kashmiris will get killed if they start millitancy inside Kashmir?? Or they thought lets fire few bullets and Indian govt will get up and walk away from Srinagar?

[g00g1y]

^^ Firstly 219 is not my number its an official number provided by government of india. I agree any kind of killing on the name of religion is wrong but equating two is more wrong.

So you are telling me where ever indian army gets involved killing 150000 people, raping women, burning homes, torturing men and mass graves are unavoidable.

[Animal]

What is wrong is wrong. The Indian Army is guilty of mass murder in Kashmir, just like the Pakistan Army is guilty of deliberately militarizing and corrupting what was initially a mass movement in the Gandhian tradition of non-cooperation.

War - what is it good for?

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by g00g1y ^^ Firstly 219 is not my number its an official number provided by government of india. I agree any kind of killing on the name of religion is wrong but equating two is more wrong. So you are telling me where ever indian army gets involved killing 150000 people, raping women, burning homes, torturing men and mass graves are unavoidable.

Read the post again dude.

I am sure you will get it. You seem to skip things which you don't want to hear.

[Senman]

Government of India should do more to engage Kashmir people and do whatever it takes to further integrate them in to Indian system that will shut up the propaganda machinery.

Look at the words used in some of the comments above: genocide, raping, burning, torture these peoples cry crocodile tears as if they care about Kashmiris, we can be 100% sure they only want the division of India.

Its about time Kashmiris ask the question to themselves if People in other states of India have no problems with GOI and live peacefully and prosper why not them? who is the cause of radicalization of Kashmir youth? Why the Indian army present in Kashmir is it because of dictatorship? What can they do to integrate in to Indian society and maintain their identity?
India can accommodate people of any religion culture, ethnicity and still they can preserve their own identity, its not going to go away by living peacefully with other people. They(Kashmiris) can ask any person from any state whether India is forcing a single culture or religion on them. So what is stopping them? what is the root cause ? its about time Kashmir people ask these questions and forget about the past and look for the bright future along with other Indians.

[humzy]

I find Indian reactions really wierd to Kashmir on this website, they always seem to say "yeah its pretty bad, but what can you do, and look Pakistan does it too!".. this is a dumb excuse, if every one started raping would it be normal for you to rape too?

I want a sane Indian to come in and condemn this stuff without any excuses, put away your ego and nationalism.

[velu]

if we go by pakistani propaganda materials there wont be any kashmiris muslims left by now

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC What the Indian occupying forces have done and are continuing to do in Kashmir is a slow genocide. You can't kill so many people and call it anything else. India is not a democracy, it's a hypocrisy. If it advocated democracy it would have implemented the right to self determination promised to the Kashmiri's but instead it never had any intentions so comes out with all kinds of excuses blaming others. It can't blame others for the rapes, murders and torture it has layed on the Kashmiri people over the years. The article writer can forget about the wider world or the so called International community coming forward as it did against Libya or as it's calling for against Syria because they are the biggest hypocrites and liars the world has ever seen. The western elite powers led by the United States of Terrorism only have self interest at mind, the whole saviour of humanity is just a load of BS only a moron would believe.

what is happening or happens in Kashmir is between Indians and Kashmiris doesnt.concern you.Pakistani eztablishment has already caused enough problems in Kashmir.Poking their noses in a place they dont had/have the right to.Indians and Kashmiris will solve this together.Already most Kashmiris realised how they were misguided by terrorist organisations from another country and have shunned violence.Its already more peaceful than it was a few years earlier.

Is Indian democracy your concern?no.its the concern of Indians and we are happy with our democracy.we dont need certificate from anyone or anybody.please look after the things that are your concern.oh i forgot...its suddenly the concern of national television in Pakistan to talk about Indian dalits democracy and everything.Keep the propoganda going.

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by humzy I find Indian reactions really wierd to Kashmir on this website, they always seem to say "yeah its pretty bad, but what can you do, and look Pakistan does it too!".. this is a dumb excuse, if every one started raping would it be normal for you to rape too? I want a sane Indian to come in and condemn this stuff without any excuses, put away your ego and nationalism.

no excuses.most indians agree that innocent people were killed in Kashmir.But anywhere where Army has been posted in any country anytime such incidents happen.Collateral damage.But bringing the army was necessary when terrorism rose in Kashmir.So it was a tough but necessary thing.

Regarding Pakistanis,as you may well see and read most of them act as holier than thou and about muslim brotherhood and how Pakistan is the upholder of rights and saviour of muslims.and India an oppressive sham democracy.so when stones are thrown on Indian windows it becomes necessary to show that the stone throwers themselves live in glass houses.

[humzy]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila no excuses.most indians agree that innocent people were killed in Kashmir.But anywhere where Army has been posted in any country anytime such incidents happen.Collateral damage.But bringing the army was necessary when terrorism rose in Kashmir.So it was a tough but necessary thing. Regarding Pakistanis,as you may well see and read most of them act as holier than thou and about muslim brotherhood and how Pakistan is the upholder of rights and saviour of muslims.and India an oppressive sham democracy.so when stones are thrown on Indian windows it becomes necessary to show that the stone throwers themselves live in glass houses.

I do see that also and I often make that point about the Pakistani posters. No one should be so attached to their country that they are too blind to see its faults.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila what is happening or happens in Kashmir is between Indians and Kashmiris doesnt.concern you.Pakistani eztablishment has already caused enough problems in Kashmir.Poking their noses in a place they dont had/have the right to.Indians and Kashmiris will solve this together.Already most Kashmiris realised how they were misguided by terrorist organisations from another country and have shunned violence.Its already more peaceful than it was a few years earlier.

Yeah, and there are millions of Kashmiris in Pakistan who have more legitimacy in poking their nose in Kashmir - a disputed territory - than 99% of India, so "Pakistanis" have their say too, whether your national maps allow it or not.

[zzebie]

Originally Posted by akheR Yeah, and there are millions of Kashmiris in Pakistan who have more legitimacy in poking their nose in Kashmir - a disputed territory - than 99% of India, so "Pakistanis" have their say too, whether your national maps allow it or not.

Every Indian have a right to poke their nose in issues concerning any part of India and that includes Kashmir.
And if a hardliner party comes into power in India, "Indians" will start having a say in the troublesome areas of Pakistan, whether your national maps allow it or not.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by zzebie Every Indian have a right to poke their nose in issues concerning any part of India and that includes Kashmir. And if a hardliner party comes into power in India, "Indians" will start having a say in the troublesome areas of Pakistan, whether your national maps allow it or not.

Don't give a dhoti about what Indians think about the rest of Pakistan, but Kashmir is not an integral part of India (nor Pakistan), just pointed out to your brother-in-arms that there are millions of souls in Pakistan who happen to be Kashmiris, and we have more rights on the territory that India

[zzebie]

Originally Posted by akheR Don't give a dhoti about what Indians think about the rest of Pakistan, but Kashmir is not an integral part of India (nor Pakistan), just pointed out to your brother-in-arms that there are millions of souls in Pakistan who happen to be Kashmiris, and we have more rights on the territory that India

If Kashmir is not an integral part of India or Pakistan, why is Pakistan occupying a large part of Kashmir?How did Pakistan get a right to give away a part of Kashmir to China?
If rest of India does not have a right to speak about Kashmir,how did the Punjabi and non Kashmiri establishment of Pakistan get a right to keep pushing in terrorists(yes tons of them non kashmiri) into Indian side of kashmir?

One solution, India and Pakistan both let go of the Kashmiri areas they have. Neither of these countries is going to do that. In fact last year or so, the Pakistani national political parties campaigned in Pakistan side of Kashmir. This was the first time i believe. This was a major shift from Pakistan's policy of maintaining their side of Kashmir as autonomous as possible with its own president and non penetration of mainstream political parties.

Kashmir has become a larger than life issue in Pakistan for its own good. Anyone signalling compromise there will be deemed a sell-out. Anyone on the Indian side relenting will be deemed a weakling. Numerous justifications can and will be given from either side for not letting go of their territory. Peace out!

[akheR]

The only solution's a referendum as per the UN resolution should be held, with three options : India, Pakistan or independence.
It will probably be a tight toss between the latter two options.
Perhaps because of Pakistan's "occupation" where you never hear of mass graves, rape cases or random extra-judicial killings.
I myself have/had family relatives in the "occupying" Pak. Army.
Says a lot.

[velu]

Originally Posted by akheR The only solution's a referendum as per the UN resolution should be held, with three options : India, Pakistan or independence. It will probably be a tight toss between the latter two options.

i dont think majority of jammu and ladakh will go with last two options..

and if every troubled countries goes with referendum then IMO China and SL wont be the same country , and also you know more than me about balochistan

[akheR]

Originally Posted by velu i dont think majority of jammu and ladakh will go with last two options.. and if every troubled countries goes with referendum then IMO China and SL wont be the same country , and also you know more than me about balochistan

Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Kashmir and the Valley will, which is easily the majority.

You can go to the UN and make it a "disputed territory" submitted to a referendum, I don't have any problem.

[velu]

Originally Posted by akheR Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Kashmir and the Valley will, which is easily the majority. You can go to the UN and make it a "disputed territory" submitted to a referendum, I don't have any problem.

but how many countries will agree to conduct referendum ??
in my memory only canada had a referendum for its Quebec and Czechoslovakia had it

[jeetu]

I have been to Kashmir before agitations in late 80's. It was richest Indian state then. A place of breathtaking beauty. I went to Gulmarg and every shop-wala had personal photos of top film stars posing with them. Most people then were fairly well off. Then some people got greedy and tried to control region for their personal benefit , result are for everyone to see.

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by akheR The only solution's a referendum as per the UN resolution should be held, with three options : India, Pakistan or independence. It will probably be a tight toss between the latter two options. Perhaps because of Pakistan's "occupation" where you never hear of mass graves, rape cases or random extra-judicial killings. I myself have/had family relatives in the "occupying" Pak. Army. Says a lot.

The pre-condition of referendum is Pakistan should remove it's army (state and non-state) out of Kashmir. Remember India is allowed to keep it's army (to a certain level) in Kashmir during referendum.

So, who is blocking the referendum here? Why not first meet the pre-condition ?

I don't see anyone shouting for Pakistan to meet the pre-condition.

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by akheR Yeah, and there are millions of Kashmiris in Pakistan who have more legitimacy in poking their nose in Kashmir - a disputed territory - than 99% of India, so "Pakistanis" have their say too, whether your national maps allow it or not.

Here we are talking of Army presence in Jammu and Kashmir.isnt it?How is any Pakistani,Kashmiri or otherwise affected by that?Is Army doing anything in Pakistani Kashmir?I dont think so.

Regarding dispute,Its a dispute between Indians and Indian Kashmiris not Indians and Pakistani Kashmiris.As and when The Pakistani Kashmir becomes FREE,they will and should have a say.As long as they are Pakistanis they have no say in matters of India.Thats my view.

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by akheR The only solution's a referendum as per the UN resolution should be held, with three options : India, Pakistan or independence. It will probably be a tight toss between the latter two options. Perhaps because of Pakistan's "occupation" where you never hear of mass graves, rape cases or random extra-judicial killings. I myself have/had family relatives in the "occupying" Pak. Army. Says a lot.

Lots of Kashmiris are in Indian Army and Police force of Kashmir.

You never hear beacuse its all suppressed may be.Like it or not Kashmir and the Majority part is India's and its integral part.

Referendum or not Pakistan didnt have any right to poke its nose in Kashmir in 1947 and since then.Let them free Kashmir and ask UN forces to look after that.Then they can negotiate as much regarding Kashmir.But anyone with a view point of Pakistani establishment is least qualified to talk about India or any Indian territory.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Lots of Kashmiris are in Indian Army and Police force of Kashmir.

Read that lots of Nazis had Jewish girlfriends.

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila You never hear beacuse its all suppressed may be.Like it or not Kashmir and the Majority part is India's and its integral part.

It is.
On a map sponsored by the Indian govt.
Only.

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Referendum or not Pakistan didnt have any right to poke its nose in Kashmir in 1947 and since then.Let them free Kashmir and ask UN forces to look after that.Then they can negotiate as much regarding Kashmir.But anyone with a view point of Pakistani establishment is least qualified to talk about India or any Indian territory.

"Free" ? You mean Army withdrawal ? Agree.

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by akheR Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Kashmir and the Valley will, which is easily the majority. You can go to the UN and make it a "disputed territory" submitted to a referendum, I don't have any problem.

How do you know???Are you saying 100% of valley will vote for Pakistan or Independence?You are declaring results even before anything has happened?On the basis of a few hundred on the streets?Referendums and elections are different things.

Btw just for your consideration 60+ percent of Kashmiris voted in the last election.A fact verified by Independent international observers.

[cricketjoshila]

Read that lots of Nazis had Jewish girlfriends.

Yea applies to Azad Kashmir recruits in Pak Army as well.

It is. On a map sponsored by the Indian govt. Only.

Except Pakistan and may be China dont hear anybody raising any objection to the fact that J and K is Indias.And even if anybody has any problem,doesnt change the situation at ground.Everyone from J and K are Indian citizens and recognised as such.

"Free" ? You mean Army withdrawal ? Agree.

Army withdrawl

UN forces to be there to look after all security so that neither India or Pakistan try anything funny.

It being made an independent nation,own constitution everything.Then they can negotiate with India regarding the status of Indian Kashmir.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila How do you know???Are you saying 100% of valley will vote for Pakistan or Independence?You are declaring results even before anything has happened?On the basis of a few hundred on the streets?Referendums and elections are different things. Btw just for your consideration 60+ percent of Kashmiris voted in the last election.A fact verified by Independent international observers.

I said that it will between these two options, Pakistan and independence, and that's pretty much obvious for everyone.

And lol about the +60% of Kashmiris voting, serious analysts already said that it was for "practical" reasons, to have some better roads or instance.
It doesn't say lot about the freedom movement at all.

[Itachi]

Originally Posted by akheR The only solution's a referendum as per the UN resolution should be held, with three options : India, Pakistan or independence. It will probably be a tight toss between the latter two options. Perhaps because of Pakistan's "occupation" where you never hear of mass graves, rape cases or random extra-judicial killings. I myself have/had family relatives in the "occupying" Pak. Army. Says a lot.

1st, pakistan should bring back the part of kashmir which it gifted to china.

How can a referendum take place if the whole land doesn't exist in reality?

See the point? This is one of the main reason why pakistan can never stand with head high on kashmir issue.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Yea applies to Azad Kashmir recruits in Pak Army as well.

Indeed, this thread - amongst others - just shows how cruel Pak Army is in Azad Kashmir, and how of a traitor you are if you join the ignominious occupying forces of Pakistan.

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Except Pakistan and may be China dont hear anybody raising any objection to the fact that J and K is Indias.And even if anybody has any problem,doesnt change the situation at ground.Everyone from J and K are Indian citizens and recognised as such.

The UN ain't no Pakistan or China.

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Army withdrawl UN forces to be there to look after all security so that neither India or Pakistan try anything funny. It being made an independent nation,own constitution everything.Then they can negotiate with India regarding the status of Indian Kashmir.

You missed the caravan here : the referendum will be held at the same time in both countries, and they will choose between the three options by themselves, under the supervision of neutral and credible international spectators.

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by akheR I said that it will between these two options, Pakistan and independence, and that's pretty much obvious for everyone. And lol about the +60% of Kashmiris voting, serious analysts already said that it was for "practical" reasons, to have some better roads or instance. It doesn't say lot about the freedom movement at all.

Obvious how?By seeing a few hundred out of millions?Or by listening to idiots like Syed Geelani?

Elections/Referendums are far cry from these petty protests organised by propaganda people.

Which serious analyst?Why would anyone care about a government it doesnt want recognise or hates?

People voted because they believed in the Indian system and have now realised what this brainwashed ill advised foreign terrorism has brought them.

[cricketjoshila]

Indeed, this thread - amongst others - just shows how cruel Pak Army is in Azad Kashmir, and how of a traitor you are if you join the ignominious occupying forces of Pakistan.

Ummm,you didnt get the point did you?

The UN ain't no Pakistan or China.

What is UN's view on Kashmir?Under what article the Kashmir resolution passed?Please read about that.

You missed the caravan here : the referendum will be held at the same time in both countries, and they will choose between the three options by themselves, under the supervision of neutral and credible international spectators.

Isnt it called Azaad Kashmir?free Kashmir?Then free it.Pakistan doesnt claim Kashmir as it own,says it should be independent.Its freedom struggle for them isnt it?Then free Azad Kashmir and let them have their own country constitution etc.Let the Kashmiris then negotiate with India.Pakistan just talks about Kashmir for the sake of it and for keeping the terror activities alive,its position on Kashmir itself is shaky.

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Army withdrawl UN forces to be there to look after all security so that neither India or Pakistan try anything funny. It being made an independent nation,own constitution everything.Then they can negotiate with India regarding the status of Indian Kashmir.

Just to clarify, there is no mention of UN forces.

As per the resolution, India can keep its troop in Srinagar during referendum. It is asked to reduce the number only.

However, Pakistan has to remove all its troops.

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by Garuda Just to clarify, there is no mention of UN forces. As per the resolution, India can keep its troop in Srinagar during referendum. It is asked to reduce the number only. However, Pakistan has to remove all its troops.

No i am talking about Pakistan giving complete freedom to Their part of Kashmir irrespective of any referendum or what India does with its KAshmir.

Pakistan says its Free Kashmir and not part of Pakistani territory as such.But they still give away parts of it to China.

They themselves dont want any free KAshmir and ask Indians.Why not do something and then ask others to follow.

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila No i am talking about Pakistan giving complete freedom to Their part of Kashmir irrespective of any referendum or what India does with its KAshmir. Pakistan says its Free Kashmir and not part of Pakistani territory as such.But they still give away parts of it to China. They themselves dont want any free KAshmir and ask Indians.Why not do something and then ask others to follow.

I know. I was just clarifying that there will be no UN forces.

Regarding Pakistan giving freedom to Kashmir ??? Does anyone really believe Pakistan wants to do that?


I can clearly see, Kashmiris are clear about their demand. They want freedom/Independence. Whether India will give or not that's separate. But atleast Kashmiris are clear in their demand.

You will never hear a clear position on Kashmir from Pakistan. For some it's part of Pakistan. For some its independence. Another day it becomes human right issue only. Even the Govt. lines also keep changing.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Obvious how?By seeing a few hundred out of millions?Or by listening to idiots like Syed Geelani?

You're actually right.
The Kashmir freedom movement is reduced to few hundreds of peoples, and all the stuff is hyped by Pakistan.
I know tons Kashmiris from both PoK and Ajjjad Kashmir (the Indian side, that is) and they're all pro-India.
In fact, the relatives of the thousands of chaps filling the mass graves we're talking about in this same thread probably begin their journey by some Jana Gana Mana.
All propaganga.

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila People voted because they believed in the Indian system and have now realised what this brainwashed ill advised foreign terrorism has brought them.

And pigs fly.
You're honestly quite disillusional if you think that, on 10 Kashmiris, more than 0.5 would call him/herself Indian.

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila No i am talking about Pakistan giving complete freedom to Their part of Kashmir irrespective of any referendum or what India does with its KAshmir.

It's relatively autonomous until the referendum, the "azad" (free) just refers to the freedom from Bharat.
And it's not as Indians call it Azad Kashmir anyway, always referred as "PoK" in your official statements/press releases/media shows.

[akheR]

Originally Posted by Garuda I can clearly see, Kashmiris are clear about their demand. They want freedom/Independence. Whether India will give or not that's separate. But atleast Kashmiris are clear in their demand.

You can't really say, lots are for independence but lots are for Pakistan too.
The only common point between the majority is probably that they're against India.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila what is happening or happens in Kashmir is between Indians and Kashmiris doesnt.concern you.Pakistani eztablishment has already caused enough problems in Kashmir.Poking their noses in a place they dont had/have the right to.Indians and Kashmiris will solve this together.Already most Kashmiris realised how they were misguided by terrorist organisations from another country and have shunned violence.Its already more peaceful than it was a few years earlier. Is Indian democracy your concern?no.its the concern of Indians and we are happy with our democracy.we dont need certificate from anyone or anybody.please look after the things that are your concern.oh i forgot...its suddenly the concern of national television in Pakistan to talk about Indian dalits democracy and everything.Keep the propoganda going.

Fellow humans being occupied, raped, murdered, tortured, oppressed will concern me and many other people including human rights organisations. You can shed tears when people bring up this issue but Kashmir will always be in the news, people will continue to fight against Indian occupying soldiers until freedom, next month or in a 100 years time. Get used it.

[cricketjoshila]

You're actually right. The Kashmir freedom movement is reduced to few hundreds of peoples, and all the stuff is hyped by Pakistan. I know tons Kashmiris from both PoK and Ajjjad Kashmir (the Indian side, that is) and they're all pro-India. In fact, the relatives of the thousands of chaps filling the mass graves we're talking about in this same thread probably begin their journey by some Jana Gana Mana. All propaganga. And pigs fly. You're honestly quite disillusional if you think that, on 10 Kashmiris, more than 0.5 would call him/herself Indian.

Yes i am delusional and a Pakistani sitting in Belgium and passing comments on Indian Kashmir is so in touch with reality.Thats laughable you know.How many times have you been to Indian Kashmir?I have been there quite a few times and have a few KAshmiri friends as well.This so called freedom struggle has only support in Srinagar and its surrounding areas.Thats about it.And that support is also not from majority of the people.

I dont know about Jana Gana Mana,but they dont sing some Quami Tarana either.As i said a PAkistani is very ill equipped to talk about Indian territories.

It's relatively autonomous until the referendum, the "azad" (free) just refers to the freedom from Bharat. And it's not as Indians call it Azad Kashmir anyway, always referred as "PoK" in your official statements/press releases/media shows.

Autonomous?Ummm do you have a KAshmiri passport?Does Pakistan government claim Kashmir as its territory?Yes or No will suffice.

[cricketjoshila]

@kkwc

LOL.Yea yea yea.Fight all you can.As i said all you can do is fight on public forums.You can claim Iran Iraq and all the world doesnt mean anyone will give you anything.Keep up your delusions.

Hope you shed tears when Millions of Bangladeshis were killed or when Balochis are killed or when Pakistani terrorist killed Mumbaikars or when they bombed London.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila @kkwc LOL.Yea yea yea.Fight all you can.As i said all you can do is fight on public forums.You can claim Iran Iraq and all the world doesnt mean anyone will give you anything.Keep up your delusions. Hope you shed tears when Millions of Bangladeshis were killed or when Balochis are killed or when Pakistani terrorist killed Mumbaikars or when they bombed London.

None of the above are anything like the Indian occupation of Kashmiri's, ongoing for decades. Just because there are other issues doesn't mean Kashmir will be forgotten. As for fighting, people will always fight occupying terrorists, kids will use stones, elderly will use sticks and those who can will use firearms as they did last month killing numerous Indian occupying troops. Others will continue to raise this issue any which way they can. If you think one day people will just give up freedom you are not with reality.

Here is a couple of quotes from Malcolm X for you to ponder.

""Power in defense of freedom is greater than power in behalf of tyranny and oppression.""

""Truth is on the side of the oppressed."

[akheR]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Yes i am delusional and a Pakistani sitting in Belgium and passing comments on Indian Kashmir is so in touch with reality.Thats laughable you know.How many times have you been to Indian Kashmir?I have been there quite a few times and have a few KAshmiri friends as well.This so called freedom struggle has only support in Srinagar and its surrounding areas.Thats about it.And that support is also not from majority of the people.

I could be sitting on the Taj Mahal or the Eiffel Tower, what the lol has it do with what I'm talking about and how does it concern to you ? The delusional here is the one who believes that the Kashmir freedom movement, which has claimed thousands and thousands of human lives, is/has been only limited to a few hundred Pak-inspired militants, and not a popular, mass-movement.
And lol @ "Srinagar and its surroundings" - congratulations, that's what we call the Kashmir Valley in the real world, and obviously you'll not find anti-Indian protestors in Ladakh or Jammu.
By the way, your "Kashmiri friends" are probably some Singh or Kaul, I guess ?
There were Muslims in Jammu too, but some of your friends decided otherwise and my maternal ancestors chose to abandon Poonch.

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila I dont know about Jana Gana Mana,but they dont sing some Quami Tarana either.As i said a PAkistani is very ill equipped to talk about Indian territories.

And that's why I'm not talking about Indian territory, but Kashmir, where, believe me, the Qaumi Tarana would be way more successful ; there's "few hundred" of Pakistanis who have already chosen their anthem for the Indians

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Autonomous?Ummm do you have a KAshmiri passport?Does Pakistan government claim Kashmir as its territory?Yes or No will suffice.

We'll have our own passport when you'll stop occupying Kashmir.

[cricketjoshila]

I could be sitting on the Taj Mahal or the Eiffel Tower, what the lol has it do with what I'm talking about and how does it concern to you ? The delusional here is the one who believes that the Kashmir freedom movement, which has claimed thousands and thousands of human lives, is/has been only limited to a few hundred Pak-inspired militants, and not a popular, mass-movement. And lol @ "Srinagar and its surroundings" - congratulations, that's what we call the Kashmir Valley in the real world, and obviously you'll not find anti-Indian protestors in Ladakh or Jammu. By the way, your "Kashmiri friends" are probably some Singh or Kaul, I guess ? There were Muslims in Jammu too, but some of your friends decided otherwise and my maternal ancestors chose to abandon Poonch.

Well you will not be allowed to sit on top of Taj Mahal,whether you sit on top of Eiffel Tower is not my concern.What concerns me is that you are passing comments about my country and its territories without ever being there.

Where was the freedom movement before 1989,until terrorists came into Kashmir?Who tipped off Indian forces againist Pakistani invasion in 1965 and 1999?Why did Pakistan's OP Grandslam failed in 1965?Hope you know the answers to that.

Srinagar and its just immediate areas not the whole valley.And even in those areas its a few 100 to thousand people.

My Kashmiri friends include 2 Bandays a Gilani a Farooq etc etc.And a Kaul or a Singh is as much a KAshmiri as anyone else.This the reason why a Pakistanis view of KAshmir holds no value,as for them only a muslim is a KAshmiri,as shown by your dismissive remark about Hindu Kashmiris.

And that's why I'm not talking about Indian territory, but Kashmir, where, believe me, the Qaumi Tarana would be way more successful ; there's "few hundred" of Pakistanis who have already chosen their anthem for the Indians

Kashmir is Indian territory as it stands now.If you are talking about POK please do i have no concern with that.But J and K is Indian territory.As and When POK becomes a free country they will be more than welcomed to talk about Kashmir.But as long as they are Pakistanis their views on KAshmir will be biased,bereft of truth and propoganda based.

LOL you are basing your assumptions on same rally by a pro Pakistani party in Kashmir?Well as i said there are a few 100 sich supporters there.And if India was really suppressing Kashmiris all these idiot leaders would have been long tried executed for treason.As a certain doctor was jailed for telling the world where OBL lived and thrived.

We'll have our own passport when you'll stop occupying Kashmir.

I dont see any Indian forces in POK?

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC None of the above are anything like the Indian occupation of Kashmiri's, ongoing for decades. Just because there are other issues doesn't mean Kashmir will be forgotten. As for fighting, people will always fight occupying terrorists, kids will use stones, elderly will use sticks and those who can will use firearms as they did last month killing numerous Indian occupying troops. Others will continue to raise this issue any which way they can. If you think one day people will just give up freedom you are not with reality. Here is a couple of quotes from Malcolm X for you to ponder. ""Power in defense of freedom is greater than power in behalf of tyranny and oppression."" ""Truth is on the side of the oppressed."

The attacking terrorists will be killed and destroyed.As they have been for last 2 decades and Kashmir will be peaceful as it was for 40 years before some dumb idiots brainwashed some Kashmiris to use violent means.Now the movement only has foreign recruits.

1.5 million Indian Army will do everything in its power to guard its territories and protect the Kashmiris irrespective of their religion,from these mad god forsaken terrorists and should the need arise 1.5 billion Indians will do the same.

[KingKhanWC]

Physical resistance is the only way to fight occupation, history has proven this. The more Indian occupying soldiers killed, the more cost to India, the more India will want to negotiate. It's up to the Kashmiri's ultimately but if they ask for military help in the forms of weapons, equipment or manpower Pakistan should provide it for them which they have been doing for a while.

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Physical resistance is the only way to fight occupation, history has proven this. The more Indian occupying soldiers killed, the more cost to India, the more India will want to negotiate. It's up to the Kashmiri's ultimately but if they ask for military help in the forms of weapons, equipment or manpower Pakistan should provide it for them which they have been doing for a while.

So you accept that Pakistan is supporting Terrorist activities in India and killing innocent Indians whether in Mumbai or in Delhi or somewhere else in India.

The day India decides to retaliate with a similar proxy war againist Pakistan you will know the costs,as if already you are not suffering from the effects of the seeds of terrorism you sowed(you may well be unaffected in UK).But it is our better standing in International community which prevents us from taking such cowardly,illegal ways.

If Pakistan had the courage and wanted Kashmir they should have come in a war face to face not use innocent brainwashed youths who kill innocent people because of money.PATHETIC.

[akheR]

No freedom movement before 1989 ?. That's a idiotic statement. Ever heard of some Maqbool Bhat ? Do you know that there was a freedom movement against the Dogras before your Gandhi even dreamed of an independent Bharat ?
What happened in the mid-80s was that the movement became violent because they didn't trust the Indian electoral process anymore, where "anti-national" elements were pressurized to not participate in the mid-80s rigged elections.
Yasin Malik was one of its main architects, before choosing the "peaceful" road later on, in the 90s.
All the Kashmiri leaders, your friend Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq or Yasin Malik are for peaceful protests... and they're compelled to do so. Remember the 2010 protests ? Because three (supposed) "ISI agents" were killed by honourable Indian jawaans ?

When the bodies of three “militants” were exhumed on Friday almost a month after the Army had claimed to have killed them in an encounter on the Line of Control in Machil sector, it was established that they were not militants, but civilians who were lured to an Army camp in Kalaroos ahead of Kupwara and then killed in a staged encounter only to secure cash award.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fa...rdered/626105/

And I'm not against non-Muslim Kashmiris, when you talked about "I have Kashmiri friends" (reminds me of the racists who are all "I do have Black friends") I thought you meant "I have Kashmiri friends who are pro India" and there are obviously more chances for them to be non Muslims than the other way.

Anyway, give my salaam and mitthai to your Gillanis and Farooqis, Kashmiris are patriotic Indians it's for all to see, I honestly have more productive way to waste my time than spitting in a well which gets emptier every time.

[Tasavur]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_...on_of_Junagadh

Hypocrisy, thy name is cricketjoshila.

You can talk about 'J&K integral part of India' as long as you want. You can blather about 'a few hundred Kashmiris support Pakistan/Independence.'

The inevitable, when it happens (for it will Insh'Allah), will bite you in the ass.

For the last few years (and the foreseeable future), Pakistan has been worried about its own internal problems. Any material support for the Kashmiri freedom movement has all but ceased since the Musharraf years.

And yet still there are 1.5 million Indian military personnel in Kashmir. Fighting against what, might I ask? If the majority of Occupied Kashmiris want to stay with India and the 'Pakistan-sponsored terrorists' are no more (since the LOC is heavily fortified) why so many soldiers?

Keep denying reality. Mubarak and Qadafi, too, denied reality. Qadafi called himself 'King of Kings, Imam of the Muslims and leader of Africa.' And his end was there for the world to see.

There is an indigenous, home-grown freedom movement gaining momentum in Kashmir. India, with all of her might, can do nothing to stop it.

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by akheR You can't really say, lots are for independence but lots are for Pakistan too. The only common point between the majority is probably that they're against India.

I actually don't have a way to really vote and know. But if I listened to many Kashmiri leaders, I have hardly seen any group saying they want to be with Pakistan.

Even Mush and many Pakistani anchors have mentioned that Kashmiris want Independence. If there is any who wants with Pakistan that can be a minority like there are definitely some who wants to be with India.

[Tasavur]

Originally Posted by Garuda I actually don't have a way to really vote and know. But if I listened to many Kashmiri leaders, I have hardly seen any group saying they want to be with Pakistan. Even Mush and many Pakistani anchors have mentioned that Kashmiris want Independence. If there is any who wants with Pakistan that can be a minority like there are definitely some who wants to be with India.

There is an emotional, jingoistic rhetoric that blares from every loudspeaker in Pakistan ("Kashmir banay ga Pakistan") but the reality is, most Pakistanis don't actually have an issue with an independent Kashmir. I say this sincerely and not to win any debates.

An independent Kashmir would be wholly favourable to us. It is why the default position of the Pakistani government has always been to hold a referendum.

It is why we do not call Kashmir an 'integral part of Pakistan.' Questions our intentions as much as you will, but our rhetoric has always been to let the Kashmiris decide their future.

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by Tasavur There is an emotional, jingoistic rhetoric that blares from every loudspeaker in Pakistan ("Kashmir banay ga Pakistan") but the reality is, most Pakistanis don't actually have an issue with an independent Kashmir. I say this sincerely and not to win any debates. An independent Kashmir would be wholly favourable to us. It is why the default position of the Pakistani government has always been to hold a referendum. It is why we do not call Kashmir an 'integral part of Pakistan.' Questions our intentions as much as you will, but our rhetoric has always been to let the Kashmiris decide their future.

I don't disagree to your point. But that's not how international disputes can be displayed to the world.

For a moment if I forget that I am an Indian and think as a normal Pakistani, then I will blame Pakistan for failure in Kashmir. If Pakistan's govt version/demand of Kashmir is not clear then how is it going to drive the movement ?

On the other hand, ask any Indian (any political party) and you will get one version on what their take on Kashmir.

Now regarding let Kashmiris decide their future by plesbicite, here also Pakistan has given a major card to India not to go ahead with the resolution. As Pakistan never withdrawn its army, India has always got a card to play that, it can't do till the pre-condition is met.

So this also shows Pakistan was/is never interested in independence of Kashmir but rather more interested in teretorrial gain.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila So you accept that Pakistan is supporting Terrorist activities in India and killing innocent Indians whether in Mumbai or in Delhi or somewhere else in India.

No. I accept they have been helping freedom fighters. The attacks in Mumbai and Delhi have nothing to do with Pak as far as I know. As I said if Kashmiri's want Pak help they should get in imo, it's occupied land as far as most of the world is concerned, so supporting the Kashmiri resistance is not supporting attacks inside India.

The day India decides to retaliate with a similar proxy war againist Pakistan you will know the costs,as if already you are not suffering from the effects of the seeds of terrorism you sowed(you may well be unaffected in UK).But it is our better standing in International community which prevents us from taking such cowardly,illegal ways.

India has been supporting terrorists in Pakistan(not occupied or disputed land) including Balochistan and Kyhber regions. A terrorist state supporting terrorists isn't a surprise.

If Pakistan had the courage and wanted Kashmir they should have come in a war face to face not use innocent brainwashed youths who kill innocent people because of money.PATHETIC.

Hilarious coming from an Indian whose nation threatened surgical strikes inside Pakistan only to wake up and smell the coffee. You may not know but nukes are in play now, neither India or Pakistan can go to war in conventional means but only by proxy means. Pakistan with it's intelligence agency and army of resistance fighters will not lose any such war, India cannot compete like this.

It's in India's interests to stop raping Kashmiri women, killing innocent people and allow Kashmiri's freedom.

[Tasavur]

Originally Posted by Garuda I don't disagree to your point. But that's not how international disputes can be displayed to the world. For a moment if I forget that I am an Indian and think as a normal Pakistani, then I will blame Pakistan for failure in Kashmir. If Pakistan's govt version/demand of Kashmir is not clear then how is it going to drive the movement ? On the other hand, ask any Indian (any political party) and you will get one version on what their take on Kashmir. Now regarding let Kashmiris decide their future by plesbicite, here also Pakistan has given a major card to India not to go ahead with the resolution. As Pakistan never withdrawn its army, India has always got a card to play that, it can't do till the pre-condition is met. So this also shows Pakistan was/is never interested in independence of Kashmir but rather more interested in teretorrial gain.

Pakistan's international position on Kashmir has always been absolutely clear. It has always called for a plebiscite. This has been a consistent policy maintained by all democratic and military governments. It hasn't changed at all since 1948.

It is rather India who has changed her position, from initially supporting plebiscite to calling Kashmir an integral part of the Indian Union.

Another inconsistency shown by India is it's view on UNSC Resolution 47. Either stick with the argument that Pakistan should withdraw its troops from Azaad Kashmir before India withdraws its own from the Valley or stick with the argument that the Resolution is no longer applicable due to changes in geography and peoples.

Either way, I personally don't think this conflict will be solved by Pakistan or India. Ultimately, the Kashmiri people will themselves decide what they want. The view of Azaad Kashmiris is overwhelmingly a pro-Pakistan one. If it is the view of the Kashmiris in the Valley that they want to be independent and self-governing, India can do nothing to prevent this. The will of a people can be repressed for only so long.

And incidentally, I fully extend this to other areas of turbulence including Balochistan and the insurgencies raging in India's North West corridor.

[cricketjoshila]

No freedom movement before 1989 ? That's a idiotic statement. Ever heard of some Maqbool Bhat ? Do you know that there was a freedom movement against the Dogras before your Gandhi even dreamed of an independent Bharat ? What happened in the mid-80s was that the movement became violent because they didn't trust the Indian electoral process anymore, where "anti-national" elements were pressurized to not participate in the mid-80s rigged elections. Yasin Malik was one of its main architects, before choosing the "peaceful" road later on, in the 90s. All the Kashmiri leaders, your friend Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq or Yasin Malik are for peaceful protests... and they're compelled to do so. Remember the 2010 protests ? Because three (supposed) "ISI agents" were killed by honourable Indian jawaans ?

So suddenly in 1980s the Kashmiris didnt trust Indian electoral system so they revolted.Before that they trusted the system so there was no revolt all was peaceful.Now suddenly in last 5- years again they have started trusting the system as certified by independent observers.So all is fine i guess.

And who said Gandhi was the 1st person to dream of Independent Bharat?

You still havent answered,Who tipped of Indian Army againist Pakistani invasion in 1965 and 1999?what was OP Grandslam and why did it fail?

Kashmir was peaceful before ISItrained terrorists entered KAshmir in late 1980s.It will be again once terrorism is rooted out of the world.

Did i ever deny or supported the excesses of Indian Army in KAshmir?Please tell me if i did i will take it back ,if not dont shoulder with that pathetic denial.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fa...rdered/626105/

And I'm not against non-Muslim Kashmiris, when you talked about "I have Kashmiri friends" (reminds me of the racists who are all "I do have Black friends") I thought you meant "I have Kashmiri friends who are pro India" and there are obviously more chances for them to be non Muslims than the other way. Anyway, give my salaam and mitthai to your Gillanis and Farooqis, Kashmiris are patriotic Indians it's for all to see, I honestly have more productive way to waste my time than spitting in a well which gets emptier every time.

My friends are persons who want a peaceful progressive Kashmir and they surely dont want to be with Pakistan.Most of them say that Independence may be good but its not practical and we may become another Afghanistan,a play ground for 3 nuclear powers.As such sticking with India is our best choice.

You can always agree to disagree,but always respect others views.I have always held you in a good esteem as a poster,whether you wish to debate or not is your own wish.

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by Tasavur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_...on_of_Junagadh Hypocrisy, thy name is cricketjoshila. You can talk about 'J&K integral part of India' as long as you want. You can blather about 'a few hundred Kashmiris support Pakistan/Independence.' The inevitable, when it happens (for it will Insh'Allah), will bite you in the ass. For the last few years (and the foreseeable future), Pakistan has been worried about its own internal problems. Any material support for the Kashmiri freedom movement has all but ceased since the Musharraf years. And yet still there are 1.5 million Indian military personnel in Kashmir. Fighting against what, might I ask? If the majority of Occupied Kashmiris want to stay with India and the 'Pakistan-sponsored terrorists' are no more (since the LOC is heavily fortified) why so many soldiers? .

You posted a link of wikipedia about Junagadh,care to elaborate on that?

Who said Pakistan sponsored terrorism has ended?What happened in Mumbai?There is relative peace in Kashmir as Army is stationed there to stop these terrorists.

Keep denying reality. Mubarak and Qadafi, too, denied reality. Qadafi called himself 'King of Kings, Imam of the Muslims and leader of Africa.' And his end was there for the world to see.

Tell that to your leaders,Ayub Yahya Mussharaf and company,who keep attacking India and cant even take an inch of its land but ended up losing half their country.

There is an indigenous, home-grown freedom movement gaining momentum in Kashmir. India, with all of her might, can do nothing to stop it

Lets say i dont agree with it neither does majority of the world,hence the so called freedom fighters are designated as terrorists.

[cricketjoshila]

No. I accept they have been helping freedom fighters. The attacks in Mumbai and Delhi have nothing to do with Pak as far as I know. As I said if Kashmiri's want Pak help they should get in imo, it's occupied land as far as most of the world is concerned, so supporting the Kashmiri resistance is not supporting attacks inside India.

Can you name the most of the world who says India is illegally occupying Kashmir?

So your Govt is a fool to accept that the attackers of Mumbai were from Pakistan and trained there.Or you know more than that?

Do you know supporting armed rebellion in another country is illegal?And PAkistan has no Locs Standi to do so.

India has been supporting terrorists in Pakistan(not occupied or disputed land) including Balochistan and Kyhber regions. A terrorist state supporting terrorists isn't a surprise.

Give me some proof of that.Except some random statments made by your leaders.If Pakistan had even an IOTA of proof of Indian involvement in Khyber or Balochistan Pakistan would be shouting itself hoarse in world bodies and bringing sanctions.India has proof so it has got Pakistani irganisations and citizens sanctioned.

Last time i checked,the most wanted terrorists in the world were found in Pakistan.

Hilarious coming from an Indian whose nation threatened surgical strikes inside Pakistan only to wake up and smell the coffee. You may not know but nukes are in play now, neither India or Pakistan can go to war in conventional means but only by proxy means. Pakistan with it's intelligence agency and army of resistance fighters will not lose any such war, India cannot compete like this. It's in India's interests to stop raping Kashmiri women, killing innocent people and allow Kashmiri's freedom.

Nukes?You have the guts to use them?India may be crippled but Pakistan annihilated in such a war,a fact i heard on Pakistani television.

What did your intelligence agency do in last 65 years?How much land has India lost?What has Pakistan gained?

Anyone can buy mercenaries,and last time i checked India had more resources to buy them.And why does India need anyone,Pakistan has so many enemies like TTP BLA etc etc etc within it to do what India may want to do.

Yes it is in India's interest to stop Army excesses in Kashmir as they are as Indian as anyone and above all they are innocent human beings.Sooner rather than later terrorism will be wiped off from Kashmir and Army will return to the barracks.

[Garuda]

Originally Posted by Tasavur Pakistan's international position on Kashmir has always been absolutely clear. It has always called for a plebiscite. This has been a consistent policy maintained by all democratic and military governments. It hasn't changed at all since 1948.

Then why Pakistan doesn't fulfil the pre-condition for prebiscite?

[SIMBA]

Ha another Kashmir thread!

Indians, Pakistan arguing, debating over an internet thread will not resolve anything.

So chilllllllllll!

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by cricketjoshila Can you name the most of the world who says India is illegally occupying Kashmir?

Most of the world see Kashmir as disputed land so once there masses of Indian troops without the will of the Kashmiri's it's occupation. If India removes it's military presence or gets agreement from the Kashmiri's for troop presence then it would revert to being disputed land.

The UN has maintained a presence in the disputed area since 1949.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2739993.stm

So your Govt is a fool to accept that the attackers of Mumbai were from Pakistan and trained there.Or you know more than that?

There are ongoing investigations. Pakistan government is indeed a fool for accepting this, probably under pressure but when Kasab begs Bhagwan while India refuse to give Pakistan any access it's plainly obvious it was a false flag operation.

Do you know supporting armed rebellion in another country is illegal?And PAkistan has no Locs Standi to do so.

Again Kashmir is not part of India.

Give me some proof of that.Except some random statments made by your leaders.If Pakistan had even an IOTA of proof of Indian involvement in Khyber or Balochistan Pakistan would be shouting itself hoarse in world bodies and bringing sanctions.India has proof so it has got Pakistani irganisations and citizens sanctioned. Last time i checked,the most wanted terrorists in the world were found in Pakistan.

Pakistan has ample proof, regardless of whether it provides it openly or not. The United States the worlds biggest superpower is in bed with India against Pakistan, it makes no sense to take it to the world stage at present.

Nukes?You have the guts to use them?India may be crippled but Pakistan annihilated in such a war,a fact i heard on Pakistani television.

It was India who threatened Pakistan with surgical strikes, what happened to this bravado? Pakistan will defend itself by all means, regardless of the outcome. It may be annihilated but India won't have much left either. Besides there are plenty of Muslim nations but not many Hindu ones.

What did your intelligence agency do in last 65 years?How much land has India lost?What has Pakistan gained? Anyone can buy mercenaries,and last time i checked India had more resources to buy them.And why does India need anyone,Pakistan has so many enemies like TTP BLA etc etc etc within it to do what India may want to do.

What mercenaries? Shiv Sena or the RSS? You can't buy people to fight long lasting proxy wars, this is why India is failing in it's supports of the TTP terrorists. People fight for a cause like the resistance is doing in Afghanistan and Kashmir.

Yes it is in India's interest to stop Army excesses in Kashmir as they are as Indian as anyone and above all they are innocent human beings.Sooner rather than later terrorism will be wiped off from Kashmir and Army will return to the barracks.

I guess we will have to wait and see on this one. History suggests oppressed, occupied people eventually win their freedom. You can't fight against the will of the people forever.

Why do you think the majority of people(in Kashmir) don't want to live under Indian rule?

[humzy]

the nationalism of some of these indian posters is beyond me.

[jeetu]

Despite all discussions ground reality will not change. Kashmir is remains a part of of India. Pakistan could not grab Kashmir in 80's when it has everything was favoring them. U.N. didn't do anything in the past even when U.S. has heavily favoring Pakistan. Present India is too strong to let go of Kashmir anyway. Kashmir independence is much as realistic goal as Balochistan gaining independence. I support Indian Army , they are given a tough task and they are doing good job. All Indian Army needs to do is hold present status quo , sooner than later Kashmir issue will be resolved according to Indian agenda. People who think otherwise will carry on living in Lala land.

[Animal]

Originally Posted by Tasavur And yet still there are 1.5 million Indian military personnel in Kashmir. Fighting against what, might I ask? If the majority of Occupied Kashmiris want to stay with India and the 'Pakistan-sponsored terrorists' are no more (since the LOC is heavily fortified) why so many soldiers?

LOL. The total strength of the Indian Armed Forces (Navy and Air Force included) is 1.1 million. So according to you all of them plus 400,000 more are in Kashmir?

That said, its really commendable that Pakistanis stand up for the rights of Kashmiris. However, it would be even more commendable if they stand up for the rights of the Tibetans, who have been so brutally repressed by China the Kashmir problem seems like a picnic in comparison.

But how does Pakistan show her concern for the oppressed Tibetans? By gifting large chunks of (Kashmiri, not Pakistani) land to their oppressors.

[RexRex]

Originally Posted by Garuda Then why Pakistan doesn't fulfil the pre-condition for prebiscite?

Shhhh.. you aren't supposed to mention that.

Just found a roundtable that was done by Barkha on a similiar issue i.e AFSPA.It was last year I think.It includes a couple of ex-armymen and gives views from both sides.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/we-...-in-j-k/214898


.

[soton]

Originally Posted by humzy the nationalism of some of these indian posters is beyond me.

Its not nationalism bro it is called educated retardation as they have been fed with so much misinformation about kasmir conflict by our media and politician for years.They see Kashmir through prism of indian right wing propoganda so no surprises when you read their posts repeating indian governments narrative ignoring facts on the ground.


sent from my Galaxy SII with Sleek ICS ROM

[cricketjoshila]

Originally Posted by humzy the nationalism of some of these indian posters is beyond me.

Ummm

I dont see any Indian

1.Denying excesses by Indian Army's excesses in Kashmir nor have they failed in condemning that.

2.Most Indians have stated that a Plebicite should take place in Kashmir under ideal circumstances.

They have objections to:

1.Pakistanis or Pakistan supposedly being the mouth piece of Kashmiris,which they are not.

2.Taking high ground regarding Kashmir,where as it was Pakistan which instigated this conflict by invading a sovereign state in 1948.Breaking all the agreements it agreed in 1947.

3.They talk about rights of Kashmirs and then gift Kashmiri land to chinese.

Like it or not J and K is Indian land at present and has been since 1948.Even the UN resolution states that where as Pakistan has to withdraw all forces from Kashmir,India can keep its forces.

So who is not fulfilling the requisites for the plebicite and not withdrawing army from Kashmir?

Pakistan can keep talking about KAshmir but it has no right neither legally nor morally to say anything.