Other Teams with "Seniority" complex

[Saqs]

I've had enough of the "Seniors" tag that is so oft-used when talking about the Pak team.

The problem is - it comes out of the camp itself and is then discussed in the public arena as if "seniority" should be given weight.

I care a damn for "seniority" in a National sports team competing at the highest level.

• Yousuf and Younis should be selected, not because they're seniors, but because they're the only batsmen in the country worth their weight in gold and would be a shoe-in with any other team in the world.
  
• Kamran shouldn't not be dropped - not because he is the most senior of our wicketkeepers, but because he is making elementary errors that are costing us games and momentum.
  
• Umar Akmal shouldn't not be dropped - not because he is the young future of Pak cricket and to drop him would be a step backwards, but he should be dropped because he isn't performing and needs to be given a wakeup call. (in Umar's case - it is the "Juniors = Progress" complex)
  

I know not of any other team in the Cricketing world who so dearly holds on to this concept to justify team selection.

And I'm not even focusing on the professional outfits that are Australia, England and South Africa. Our cousins on the subcontinent aren't heard talking about it, not that I have heard atleast.

Hell, even West Indies gives it no significance.

So why this complex in Pakistan?

It's fine to "respect your elders" - but this is our national team people, our national pride. The only time seniority should be given some weight is when deciding who will captain - and even then, it should only be because that player has the respect of others as a player - not the "respect your elders" respect that is prevalent in our team.

The sooner we can drop this complex, the better off we'll be and progress will finally be made.

[SOSami]

Good question!

India do have a similar set-up to Pak, as do Sri Lanka to a certain extent. However, their boards back their captains which is where the main difference lies.

It's not confined to the sub-continent either. South Africa had a similar situation with Smith. He had a tough time when he took the reins the team with the so-called seniors who were part of the Bible-bashing gang (not my choice of term, just one used at the time) that were Cronje's proteges, who thought they deserved the captaincy. It's only Cricket SA's stubborn backing of a guy who had obvious leadership potential that settled things down. The underlying premise was that Smith was a man who was fair and only had the best interests of CA at heart.

The problem with our players is that it is questionable whether any other post-Imran captain other than YK and Inzi have ever had the best interests of Pak Cricket at heart and even Inzi lost the plot close to the end of his reign.

As the OP said, it's also related to cultures. Obviously a captain in cricket is a more important figure than say, football. However, problems arose relating to the England football team and captaincy issue damaged the recent World Cup bid in South Africa. I remember Fabio Capello saying "I don't know what this obsession with the captaincy is in England....in Italy and Spain we basically give it to the oldest guy!".

Basically, its not rocket science and something that has been repeated on PP many times by many people. It comes down to picking a guy who is tactically aware, who obviously deserves his place in the team based on his skill and finally having checks and balances within the PCB to ensure he isn't picking his mates.


The seniority issue is particularly related to the bit about deserving a place in the team. You need to have relatively senior players with a proven pedigree to know for sure the guy's game will have the longevity to carry his place in the team during his tenure as captain. Only MoYo and YK have had this since Inzi's retirement. Asif has baggage and Aamer too young. Noone other than those four are guaranteed thieir places in my opinion but it should have ruled anyone other than those out.

[adidazz]

Mate it's not a Pakistani Cricket team thing, it's engrained in Pakistani mentality overall AND IT WILL NEVER CHANGE.

It's a cultural aspect of Pakistan and is used in all forms (work, sport). We all may criticise it but we all do it. It may be outdated but it's the Pakistani way.

[Saqs]

Originally Posted by adidazz Mate it's not a Pakistani Cricket team thing, it's engrained in Pakistani mentality overall AND IT WILL NEVER CHANGE. It's a cultural aspect of Pakistan and is used in all forms (work, sport). We all may criticise it but we all do it. It may be outdated but it's the Pakistani way.

I realise it is. But it is also a cultural aspect in India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

The point is we need to exclude it from our National Team.

SoSami raises two good points:

1. Backing by the board is important. In regards to this, I would say that YK got full backing from the board. However, player power ousted him.

2. The appointed captain should have his own place guaranteed as a player first and foremost.

The problem is, however, that is isn't something that is confined to the "captaincy" - it's also ingrained in things like batting order etc.

I reckon it is the second biggest thing crippling this proud cricketing nation, the first being the incompetence of the PCB.

[Saqs]

And just to further vent - I'm also sick of hearing the "I was a senior, they shouldn't have dropped me" argument by our players (Razzaq etc.)

[AZ]

the other 3 Asian countries also have this issue, only difference is our seniors are retarded

[SOSami]

Originally Posted by saqibsalman And just to further vent - I'm also sick of hearing the "I was a senior, they shouldn't have dropped me" argument by our players (Razzaq etc.)

Its true.

Even Misbah had a pop after he was dropped after the Australia tour!

[*sallu*]

Its an issue with India and Sri Lanka but no where near the same extent

I've never heard Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly, Sanga, Jayawardne etc ever say that we're seniors, we should be treated with respect

I've heard such lines from Razzaq, Inzi, Yousuf hundreds of times

[SOSami]

Originally Posted by *sallu* Its an issue with India and Sri Lanka but no where near the same extent I've never heard Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly, Sanga, Jayawardne etc ever say that we're seniors, we should be treated with respect I've heard such lines from Razzaq, Inzi, Yousuf hundreds of times

Never from Ganguly? Not even after Chappell and Dravid kicked him out?

[AZ]

Sehwag - Dhoni situation during 2009 WC as well...

[dani2k]

Originally Posted by Ahmed Zulfiqar the other 3 Asian countries also have this issue, only difference is our seniors are retarded

And our seniors perfom on the field!

[ShaazE]

There should also be a thread about 'Fans of other teams obsessing over young, and at times barely legal boys'. Because that is a trend here and it would be interesting to see if fans from other countries are as disturbing.

[SOSami]

Also, the Pakistani board, fans and media don't show the due respect that the seniors deserve given service they have offered and skills exhibited.

In my opinion, Inzi still had a few years left in him at Test level yet he was trashed. Tendulkar seemingly was all washed up a couple of years ago according to the Indian media and fans yet the board and selectors didn't force retirement upon him and they're now reaping the benefits. Dravid is still playing yet we are trying to sideline MoYo and YK. Remember, Dravid wasn't completely innocent in ousting Ganguly yet we didn't hear too much from the team, probably because the BCCI wouldn't have stood for it.

For some reason, there is a policy of sack and slander. We fire the greats of our game for reasons that other teams would hush up and underplay and subsequently slander them when the players argue their case.

It's a problem that has been getting worse in the last 10 years, with the Pakistani team leaking every little incident to the media and causing rifts. How much did we really hear from Waqar and Wasim all those years ago about their differences, other than muffled rumblings?

Players from all teams make mistakes. What the ECB did to Kevin Pietersen in relation to the captaincy and his subsequent reaction after he was stripped of it was no worse than what the YK and the PCB have done. Flintoff ended up nearly drowning after he took out a pedalo whilst drunk, yet he is still idolised. Warne was a match-fixed. I would dread to think what we would be saying about Ponting during his lean patch and after he chose to bat at Headingly.

Every team has issues. The Pak players don't help themselves but we (fans, media, players) are too ready to publicise such information rather then suppressing it for the greater good.

[Guenon123]

Originally Posted by SOSami Every team has issues. The Pak players don't help themselves but we (fans, media, players) are too ready to publicise such information rather then suppressing it for the greater good.

We don't look at the consequences of such actions and try to fix every thing in the 'short-cut' way instead of following a proper path.

[Animal]

Originally Posted by saqibsalman [*]Yousuf and Younis should be selected, not because they're seniors, but because they're the only batsmen in the country worth their weight in gold and would be a shoe-in with any other team in the world.

Agree 100%.

[Saqs]

Originally Posted by SOSami Also, the Pakistani board, fans and media don't show the due respect that the seniors deserve given service they have offered and skills exhibited. In my opinion, Inzi still had a few years left in him at Test level yet he was trashed. Tendulkar seemingly was all washed up a couple of years ago according to the Indian media and fans yet the board and selectors didn't force retirement upon him and they're now reaping the benefits. Dravid is still playing yet we are trying to sideline MoYo and YK. Remember, Dravid wasn't completely innocent in ousting Ganguly yet we didn't hear too much from the team, probably because the BCCI wouldn't have stood for it. For some reason, there is a policy of sack and slander. We fire the greats of our game for reasons that other teams would hush up and underplay and subsequently slander them when the players argue their case. It's a problem that has been getting worse in the last 10 years, with the Pakistani team leaking every little incident to the media and causing rifts. How much did we really hear from Waqar and Wasim all those years ago about their differences, other than muffled rumblings? Players from all teams make mistakes. What the ECB did to Kevin Pietersen in relation to the captaincy and his subsequent reaction after he was stripped of it was no worse than what the YK and the PCB have done. Flintoff ended up nearly drowning after he took out a pedalo whilst drunk, yet he is still idolised. Warne was a match-fixed. I would dread to think what we would be saying about Ponting during his lean patch and after he chose to bat at Headingly. Every team has issues. The Pak players don't help themselves but we (fans, media, players) are too ready to publicise such information rather then suppressing it for the greater good.

There is that as well. Good point.


Perhaps the 'seniors' in the team are trying to overcompensate as they feel constantly under threat for their position and know that this team has a long-running precedence of trashing 'legendary' players (Anwar, Inzi, Miandad, Akram, Waqar etc.) as if they never served their countries well.

[Decipher]

Originally Posted by saqibsalman I've had enough of the "Seniors" tag that is so oft-used when talking about the Pak team. The problem is - it comes out of the camp itself and is then discussed in the public arena as if "seniority" should be given weight. I care a damn for "seniority" in a National sports team competing at the highest level. Yousuf and Younis should be selected, not because they're seniors, but because they're the only batsmen in the country worth their weight in gold and would be a shoe-in with any other team in the world. Kamran shouldn't not be dropped - not because he is the most senior of our wicketkeepers, but because he is making elementary errors that are costing us games and momentum. Umar Akmal shouldn't not be dropped - not because he is the young future of Pak cricket and to drop him would be a step backwards, but he should be dropped because he isn't performing and needs to be given a wakeup call. (in Umar's case - it is the "Juniors = Progress" complex) I know not of any other team in the Cricketing world who so dearly holds on to this concept to justify team selection. And I'm not even focusing on the professional outfits that are Australia, England and South Africa. Our cousins on the subcontinent aren't heard talking about it, not that I have heard atleast. Hell, even West Indies gives it no significance. So why this complex in Pakistan? It's fine to "respect your elders" - but this is our national team people, our national pride. The only time seniority should be given some weight is when deciding who will captain - and even then, it should only be because that player has the respect of others as a player - not the "respect your elders" respect that is prevalent in our team. The sooner we can drop this complex, the better off we'll be and progress will finally be made.

It's a mindset that we enjoy by having a genetically embedded disorder of having all different kinds of complexes and sissy approach to many matters in life.

It was not long ago when Michael Clarke couldn't click in T20 (the guy is captaining the squad),,, guess what he comes up with? ... "If I keep performing like this, there is no spot for me in the team".

Did you also notice the pro-active approach of Brett Lee and Shane Bond before the message on the wall could even be written?


and here we have a bunch of obdurate mental daft in the name of "seniors" and "class players", jinko dhakkay day kar nikaalo phir bhi nahi nikaltay. I guess we are just not man enough !!

[Saqs]

^ lol agreed, but there is a fine line don't you agree?

At one end, we shouldn't use 'seniority' as justification for team selection.

On the other end, we shouldn't ridicule our legends who have served us well over the years by "dhakkay day kar nikalna".

[Decipher]

Originally Posted by saqibsalman ^ lol agreed, but there is a fine line don't you agree? At one end, we shouldn't use 'seniority' as justification for team selection. On the other end, we shouldn't ridicule our legends who have served us well over the years by "dhakkay day kar nikalna".

See, there is a punjabi saying which is something like.. "Bakri apnay doodh mein meinganay day"

It's like you milk a goat and it poops out in the milk pot for you.

Unfortunately many of these "senior Players" .. "class players" ... "Legend Players" are by default experts of shooting themselves in the foot at the end of their careers. They are hell bent to ruin everything they have achieved for the country before calling it quits.

As I said before, after years of experience, I have found that we are just not man enough to bravely stand with the truth and we are just not smart enough to read the message on the wall.

[SOSami]

North handed more breathing space
Peter English August 6, 2010

There's a popular line in Australian cricket that goes "it's harder to get into the Test team than out of it". Usually it has applied to the batsmen and the current top six, which falters almost as often as it purrs, is benefitting from almost untouchable status.

Andrew Hilditch, the chairman of selectors, is not plotting any changes to the line-up for the two Tests in India in October, and would be happiest if the order didn't alter until after the Ashes. That's despite a couple of batsmen - Ricky Ponting and Marcus North - losing power since being defeated by England last year, Michael Hussey edging closer to the end, and Shane Watson being employed as an out-of-position opener.

In the early 1990s, the Waughs were sometimes called the koala brothers (not to their faces!) because they were seen as protected species. Back then Mark and Steve were in their 20s and their best was in front of them. Instead of being on the endangered list over the past year, Marcus North, a 31-year-old, remains in the top tree. Admittedly he is clinging on, but every time he is on the verge of tumbling his powerful admirers prop him up.

Hilditch wants North to be a long-term player and he will be given a chance in India to secure an Ashes role. "He's a very experienced cricketer and we're going to lose some experience in the next six months to two years, so if he was playing really well and gave us some experience, that would be our ideal outcome," Hilditch said. "But Marcus would be aware, as any cricketer is, that he needs to perform well and obviously his consistency is something that we'd be looking for him to improve."

For a professional batsman who has impressed for more than a decade, North has a rare ability to hit or miss. But it's not just his tendency for small scores - he has 21 or fewer in 19 of his 28 Test innings - that is a concern. It's also the times when he makes runs. After a fabulous Ashes series, North has registered only four half-centuries against the weaker opponents of West Indies, Pakistan and New Zealand.

Most tellingly, those successes came when Australia's innings were already set up. He entered at 4 for 253 to score 79 against West Indies and his 68 in the same series came after starting at 3 for 277. In New Zealand, where he excelled under immense scrutiny, he walked out at 4 for 176 to post an unbeaten 112, while his 90 in the next game began at 4 for 247. Apart from the century in Wellington, the runs were at the easier end of the Test scale.

With Australia's batting line-up showing regular brittleness - 160 at The Oval, 150 against West Indies in Perth, 127 in Sydney and 88 at Headingley - they need the No.6 to be capable of stability. In those four innings North scratched 8, 1, 20 and 16.

Against Pakistan in England he displayed the flail and fail method, appearing more like a nervy rookie than a senior pro with four hundreds in 17 Tests. "He's proved he can play international cricket," Hilditch said. "We've been preparing for this Ashes since we lost them last time, that's why Marcus has been in the side, he has been part of our longer-term planning for this Ashes series coming up.''

Watson's aggressive approach is made for the middle order and he is the logical choice to drop down whenever a middle-order space appears. After starting with seven fifties and a century in his first eight matches as opener, Watson's life has become tougher and he is less comfortable when the new ball swings, which is something England do well.

Hilditch is reluctant to shuffle the order, even though he sees Phillip Hughes as a long-term opener, but is confident a double switch to the top six can be done smoothly - if absolutely necessary. "You can make changes, I don't think you need to go away and say you can't," he said. "But the reality is we don't see changes being made. Shane Watson has been extremely successful at the top of order, he averages very close to 50 opening, which is a marked increase of where he was down the order."

Hilditch also does not want to break up Watson's partnership with Simon Katich. The pair averages 54.95 runs an innings, which currently places them behind only the Lawry-Simpson and Brown-Fingleton combinations in Australia's history. "It's been a very good partnership," Hilditch said. "Obviously Shane can bat anywhere in the order, but he certainly seems to be grabbing the opening spot."

One person returning after a long-lay who has a place waiting for him is Peter Siddle. Siddle has not played since a stress fracture was diagnosed in his back in February and is planning to return with Victoria at the Champions League in September. If that goes smoothly he will be expected to face England at the Gabba on November 25.

"He's certainly part of our Ashes plans, and has been since the last Ashes," Hilditch said. "He's got to be back bowling well and performing, nobody automatically comes back in. Certainly fully fit, we see him in the top echelon of fast bowlers." This is a panel that keeps faith in those who have served them ably in wins and losses.

http://www.cricinfo.com/australia/co...ry/471156.html



Seniority/experience matters to all teams.

[Blistering Barnacle]

Originally Posted by *sallu* Its an issue with India and Sri Lanka but no where near the same extent I've never heard Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly, Sanga, Jayawardne etc ever say that we're seniors, we should be treated with respect I've heard such lines from Razzaq, Inzi, Yousuf hundreds of times

Maybe because those other guys are somewhat educated and our guys aren't.

[Saqs]

Originally Posted by SOSami Seniority/experience matters to all teams.

I think Cricket Australia have missed something there - they're usually a lot more ruthless - and hence that has always createst that pressure on the current setup to perform.

Atleast Marcus hasn't come out and said he should remain in the side because he is a senior member - because he's not.

So seniority doesn't usually equate to experience. North isn't very experienced in the Test arena, so not sure what Cricket Australia's plans are here.

[cricjunkie2]

I posted this on the "Team India" thread. I guess it would just about fit this thread as well.

Originally Posted by cricjunkie2 It is true that Indian cricket team is relatively contraversy free. But that does not mean its players dont have tensions between them, it is just that they all recognize the bigger goal - which is success for Team India, and pull together in unison. I think this is nothing unique to India. Australia, England, NZ, SA et al do the same. Pakistan's problems are two prong. While lack of genuine test quality bats is a big issue, politics, poor management, poor team culture is the bigger issue at hand. Talent is something that you can nurture with a good system in place, but the politics and poor attitude of your mgmt and players kills your chances. I guess its easy to say that you want to get rid of all this. But the harsh truth is that these things are part of Pakistani culture - very hard to get rid of. It may sound harsh, but sadly that is the truth. It is easy to blame the PCB for everything. But who is PCB ? It is your own people. They are part of the same culture that you all sport. If you want to improve your team culture, you need to refine the way you guys think of issues. I saw and still see so many Pak fans welcome Asif with both hands, inspite of his multiple drug scandals. So what if he is talented, is he beyond rules ? Same is true with Shoaib Akhtar. Numerous bans reverted the moment your team is in trouble. Numerous times, you hire an inquiry team to do a post-mortem & they come back with pretty much the same report - that the team is mired in politics,vindictiveness and self promotion. Yet the same players find themselves back in the team, backed by the same fans who complained about them. If your players know that they are immune to punishment, no matter what they do, wouldnt they keep doing what they are doing ? Insanity is doing the same thing over & over again and expecting a different result. I guess this is the problem with Pakistan cricket. Cosmetic changes wont yield dramatically different results. You need to shake the foundations. So, what must Pakistan do ? 1) Stop overreacting: Winning and losing are part of the game. When the team loses, many of you want your coach, captain, players etc replaced. Why ? Because you are angry that these folks lost the game, not because there are better candidates out there. Change is only going to destabilize your cricket more, not help. If you want to get the best out of anyone, the least the person needs is job security. Acknowledge that! 2) Zero tolerance for indiscipline: No one is above the team. Aussies dropped Symonds at the peak of his career. Bhajji got banned from the IPL for slapping Sreesanth. However Asif & Akhtar have gotten away with practically everything. Shoaib Malik with all politics still finds himself in the team. If you do not give these players any disincentive for indiscipline, isnt it fair to expect them to repeat their mistakes ? And exactly how many games have you won by placing talent ahead of discipline in your importance scale ? 3) Work on your cricketer's personality: Most Pakistani players, unlike players of other countries, come from a rural background. They are not very well educated. They have not seen this much fame and money before & given their background, cannot handle all this new found stardom well. It quickly gets to their head & then they all start acting like dadas in the team. Umar Akmal threating to sit out if Kamran is not included is laughable to say the least. Help the players understand what it takes to succeed at this level. Counsel them before they play for the country. 4) Stop confusing T20 with test cricket: There is some strange fascination in Pakistan for boundary hitters like Afridi. Sadly, mad slogging is misconstrued as aggression. Asim Kamal who batted with a sore arm in the Ind-Pak 2004 series is far more aggressive a test player than Afridi ever will be. Appreciate this. 5) Revamp the PCB: This is easier said than done. First your president should not be associated with the cricket board. WTH, does a politican know about cricket ? Hire your ex-cricketers to look after the board & its appointees. This is not a comprehensive list, but nevertheless good enough for a start. In the past Pak cricket simply had too rich a talent pool to overcome these limitations, but given the nature of the talent that is emerging right now, you cannot get away with these issues anymore.