Waugh & Warne - Did the ICC or Australian cricket ever do a thorough investigation ?

[Javelin]

To those who have always defended Waugh and Warne for only 'giving weather information' (are they qualified weather forecasters ?), and thus not being guilty of spot or match fixing I ask the question, "Was there ever a full investigation by the ICC or Cricket Australia, or did everybody just take Waugh's and Warne's word for it that it was nothing more ?" (Just as Warne's word was accepted regarding 'the drugs being given by Mum to look good')

And if there was an investigation which discovered a lot more, can we be 100% sure that the Australian's did not cover it up, just as they kept quiet for 5 years on the weather forecasting payments ?

There is an assumption in the ICC, and in many cricketing circles, that Australian cricket authorities are beyond reproach, and would never indulge in cover-up's to hide the wrongs of Australian cricketers - even when there is strong evidence to the contrary.

[Random Aussie]

Yawn. Deflection thread is deflection.

FYI Warne's excuse was not accepted at all, perhaps you should read what the hearing said about him, it was not complimentary. But you are not interested in facts or checking I assume...

[Javelin]

Originally Posted by Random Aussie Yawn. Deflection thread is deflection.

Yawn as much as you like. But the question is fairly straightforward.

[SOSami]

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...d.php?t=105350

[James]

Butt, Amir and Asif - are some PP members still in denial?

[Javelin]

Originally Posted by Whippy Butt, Amir and Asif - are some PP members still in denial?

Did I mention those three in this thread?

Just trying to understand if double standards are applied.

There is an assumption in the ICC, and in many cricketing circles, that Australian cricket authorities are beyond reproach, and would never indulge in cover-up's to hide the wrongs of Australian cricketers - even when there is strong evidence to the contrary

[Liberty]

I thought OP left this forum?

[Random Aussie]

Originally Posted by Javelin There is an assumption in the ICC, and in many cricketing circles, that Australian cricket authorities are beyond reproach, and would never indulge in cover-up's to hide the wrongs of Australian cricketers - even when there is strong evidence to the contrary.

State the basis for your assertion here. Who actually said that? You?

They cover things up all the time. We had Warne in our team, Symonds in our team, they stuff up the ticketing arrangements every year, they locked the media out of one series for some stupid IP issue, they caved in to BCCI over monkeygate, they appointed Tim Neilsen and then extended his contract after he lost series at home, they play favourites at selection, what more would you like?

[Random Aussie]

Originally Posted by Javelin Yawn as much as you like. But the question is fairly straightforward.

Not sure, why don't you google it and do some reading?

[James]

if such an assumption exists, it stems from the fact that Cricket Australia is a mostly respectable organisation that presides over a successful and professionally-run side, that has punished its players in the past for a lot less than passing information onto bookies. is the PCB a respectable organisation that presides over a successful and professionally-run side?

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Javelin To those who have always defended Waugh and Warne for only 'giving weather information' (are they qualified weather forecasters ?), and thus not being guilty of spot or match fixing I ask the question, "Was there ever a full investigation by the ICC or Cricket Australia, or did everybody just take Waugh's and Warne's word for it that it was nothing more ?" (Just as Warne's word was accepted regarding 'the drugs being given by Mum to look good') And if there was an investigation which discovered a lot more, can we be 100% sure that the Australian's did not cover it up, just as they kept quiet for 5 years on the weather forecasting payments ? There is an assumption in the ICC, and in many cricketing circles, that Australian cricket authorities are beyond reproach, and would never indulge in cover-up's to hide the wrongs of Australian cricketers - even when there is strong evidence to the contrary.

Yes its a big cover up and nobody knows about it (except those that have the internet, those that can read, those that can listen to radio, those that are older than 15 and everyone else.)

There is plenty of information about it and only those that dont look would agree with you, Read all the transcripts and reports on the issue and tell us what you dont understand.

[pinger]

Originally Posted by Fish Yes its a big cover up and nobody knows about it (except those that have the internet, those that can read, those that can listen to radio, those that are older than 15 and everyone else.) There is plenty of information about it and only those that dont look would agree with you, Read all the transcripts and reports on the issue and tell us what you dont understand.

Exactly. What a load of tosh

[Javelin]

Originally Posted by Whippy if such an assumption exists, it stems from the fact that Cricket Australia is a mostly respectable organisation that presides over a successful and professionally-run side, that has punished its players in the past for a lot less than passing information onto bookies

.By and large true re- Cricket australia..

is the PCB a respectable organisation that presides over a successful and professionally-run side?

It is not re- PCB.

Does not take away from the questions posed.
How often is it in life that the one who has built up a reputation of being honest and truthful, is more likely to be believed on the rare instances that he does decide to hide the truth, even when there appears to be evidence to the contrary ?

[wasim-fan]

Comes down to this little thing called "EVIDENCE". Do you have any evidence? Almost every fan here believes Sydney test was fixed. Can you prove it? With the predictability of faithful geyser, this whole line of argument concerning Waugh and Warne has been resorted after the deflection to RAW, BCCI, Sharad Pawar fell through. This too will pass.

[Extreme Pace]

Oh boy, the Australian posters keep acting mightier than though but when it comes to their own dirty laundry they start acting like a bunch of trolls.

Yes its a big cover up and nobody knows about it

Sarcasm fail ? There was a big cover up and CA wanted to keep it that way except for those damned nosy journalists who uncovered it. Even the inquiry committee suggested they should have been banned for a considerable time, yet they never were. ICC also did nothing about it. Doesn't matter if its divulging information or spot fixing its pretty much the same thing. Marlon Samuels was banned for 2 years recently for talking to a bookmaker, this pair wasn't. Yes its double standards.

[SOSami]

Originally Posted by wasim-fan Comes down to this little thing called "EVIDENCE". Do you have any evidence? Almost every fan here believes Sydney test was fixed. Can you prove it? With the predictability of faithful geyser, this whole line of argument concerning Waugh and Warne has been resorted after the deflection to RAW, BCCI, Sharad Pawar fell through. This too will pass.

I hope you take a similarly principled and objective approach to the reliability of evidence when judging the guilt of the Pakistani players, or are you one of those more than prepared to convict based on NOTW reports?

At the moment, proof is in the eye of the beholder. Don't worry though, your obvious penchant for fairness in relation to evidence will be borne out soon. Pak's lawyers will make sure it is viewed with the objectivity all individuals deserve when presented to the ICC ACSU Panel.

If it doesn't stand up, the players will be punished and rightly so.

[Amir]

Aussies phir ro rahe hain. Always come out for a a good whinge whenever one brings up a legitimate concern against Australian cricket.

A lot of posts very defensive and dodging the the OP's point, not arguing very objectively and as expected...bring Pakistan into it when the OP did not mention it in the opening post. I think some mentioned something about deflecting the issue, LOL. Who and where is he deflecting it too? Its A MESSAGE BOARD, that has many discussions going on.

[cric]

Originally Posted by Amir Aussies phir ro rahe hain. Always come out for a a good whinge whenever one brings up a legitimate concern against Australian cricket. A lot of posts very defensive and dodging the the OP's point, not arguing very objectively and as expected...bring Pakistan into it when the OP did not mention it in the opening post. I think some mentioned something about deflecting the issue, LOL. Who and where is he deflecting it too? Its A MESSAGE BOARD, that has many discussions going on.

the best reply in the thread.

[wasim-fan]

Originally Posted by SOSami I hope you take a similarly principled and objective approach to the reliability of evidence when judging the guilt of the Pakistani players, or are you one of those more than prepared to convict based on NOTW reports? At the moment, proof is in the eye of the beholder. Don't worry though, your obvious penchant for fairness in relation to evidence will be borne out soon. Pak's lawyers will make sure it is viewed with the objectivity all individuals deserve when presented to the ICC ACSU Panel. If it doesn't stand up, the players will be punished and rightly so.

Ofcourse, I am not judging anyone guilty, although if you are truly objective, you can't help but consider the seriousness of the circumstantial evidence at hand. I don't think it is Pak. lawyers prerogative to make ICC look at it objectively, but only to find a reasonable defence/argument for the players.

[SOSami]

Originally Posted by wasim-fan Ofcourse, I am not judging anyone guilty, although if you are truly objective, you can't help but consider the seriousness of the circumstantial evidence at hand. I don't think it is Pak. lawyers prerogative to make ICC look at it objectively, but only to find a reasonable defence/argument for the players.

As me and you have discussed previously, given the bias the ICC have exhibited towards Pakistan in the past I don't believe the players have any chance of receiving a fair trial without outside coercion. Forcing the ICC to put aside that bias to ensure the evidence is reviewed objectively will be necessary; lawyers and procedures are the key to ensuring a fair trial.

I agree with you, the law-men should focus on the defence of the players but through that can an achieve the goal of unbiased evidence review.

Remember, the burden of proof now lies with the ACSU, not the NOTW. If they are so sure of the legitimacy of the evidence, lets see if the guys down at the ACSU are willing to stake their reputations on 'circumstancial evidence'. If they are, then they better have some damn good arguments.

I personally wouldn't trust what the NOTW report and fully believe they are could fabricate such a video (shoot it post-match). Just look at the illegal wire-tapping cases in which some of their journos have been sent to jail. Look at how the Fake Sheikh paid people to kidnap Victoria Beckham. If they are capable of that they are capable of anything and I really do mean anything.

[ajithrocks]

Originally Posted by Javelin To those who have always defended Waugh and Warne for only 'giving weather information' (are they qualified weather forecasters ?), and thus not being guilty of spot or match fixing I ask the question, "Was there ever a full investigation by the ICC or Cricket Australia, or did everybody just take Waugh's and Warne's word for it that it was nothing more ?" (Just as Warne's word was accepted regarding 'the drugs being given by Mum to look good') And if there was an investigation which discovered a lot more, can we be 100% sure that the Australian's did not cover it up, just as they kept quiet for 5 years on the weather forecasting payments ? There is an assumption in the ICC, and in many cricketing circles, that Australian cricket authorities are beyond reproach, and would never indulge in cover-up's to hide the wrongs of Australian cricketers - even when there is strong evidence to the contrary.

Rightly pointed out.. on the other hand even Pakistan did the same with Wasim and others in Quyaam report, Isn't it?

Kapil was alone carefully removed from allegations in India.

Quyaam himself said that he was lenient with wasim

Every board will sweep these allegations under the carpet and Australia is not an exception. Almost everyone forgot the first time when amir was accused of match fixing. A great knock of Afridi went in to drains because of Amir, it was very evident that he attended the phone by placing it inside the hemlet. The PCB swept everything under the carpet, and despite knowing that half of the team under performed willingly in a high profile series everyone was let to play again.

PCB could not do anything this time because the evidence reached even the commoners in the form of video and even here it is the ICC which took the action and PCB tried to hide things.

[wasim-fan]

Originally Posted by SOSami As me and you have discussed previously, given the bias the ICC have exhibited towards Pakistan in the past I don't believe the players have any chance of receiving a fair trial without outside coercion. Forcing the ICC to put aside that bias to ensure the evidence is reviewed objectively will be necessary; lawyers and procedures are the key to ensuring a fair trial. I agree with you, the law-men should focus on the defence of the players but through that can an achieve the goal of unbiased evidence review. Remember, the burden of proof now lies with the ACSU, not the NOTW. If they are so sure of the legitimacy of the evidence, lets see if the guys down at the ACSU are willing to stake their reputations on 'circumstancial evidence'. If they are, then they better have some damn good arguments. I personally wouldn't trust what the NOTW report and fully believe they are could fabricate such a video (shoot it post-match). Just look at the illegal wire-tapping cases in which some of their journos have been sent to jail. Look at how the Fake Sheikh paid people to kidnap Victoria Beckham. If they are capable of that they are capable of anything and I really do mean anything.

Point is SoSami, it really comes is a procedure. People talk about BCCI's clout, but even they have to hire lawyers and defend the players in front of the tribunal whether it was SA in 2002 or 2008 in Aus or PCB in last eng. tour. ALL 3 of the above trials went in favour of the complainant.The judgement is presided by an ICC triibunal, so I don't think there is any scope for bias in this kind of a trial, since any unfair practise can get challenged in civil court.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by SOSami As me and you have discussed previously, given the bias the ICC have exhibited towards Pakistan in the past I don't believe the players have any chance of receiving a fair trial without outside coercion. Forcing the ICC to put aside that bias to ensure the evidence is reviewed objectively will be necessary; lawyers and procedures are the key to ensuring a fair trial. I agree with you, the law-men should focus on the defence of the players but through that can an achieve the goal of unbiased evidence review. Remember, the burden of proof now lies with the ACSU, not the NOTW. If they are so sure of the legitimacy of the evidence, lets see if the guys down at the ACSU are willing to stake their reputations on 'circumstancial evidence'. If they are, then they better have some damn good arguments. I personally wouldn't trust what the NOTW report and fully believe they are could fabricate such a video (shoot it post-match). Just look at the illegal wire-tapping cases in which some of their journos have been sent to jail. Look at how the Fake Sheikh paid people to kidnap Victoria Beckham. If they are capable of that they are capable of anything and I really do mean anything.

there is so much wrong with this post, the ICC have exhibited bias towards Pakistan is the really funny one though.

[Random Aussie]

Originally Posted by Amir Aussies phir ro rahe hain. Always come out for a a good whinge whenever one brings up a legitimate concern against Australian cricket. A lot of posts very defensive and dodging the the OP's point, not arguing very objectively and as expected...bring Pakistan into it when the OP did not mention it in the opening post. I think some mentioned something about deflecting the issue, LOL. Who and where is he deflecting it too? Its A MESSAGE BOARD, that has many discussions going on.

Yes of course it is a deflection. Our players (Pakistan) are in trouble so lets try to talk about some other country who might be at fault too. It's about the tenth time it has been brought up here since this spot fixing thing began. Just total coincidence I assume.

I am curious (not that I will get an answer) how exactly Aussie posters saying the facts are there, you can read about them is being defensive. Oh that's right this is the internet so I just decide what you said regardless of whether you said it or not.

So why are YOU being so defensive Amir? Don't get upset now...

[SOSami]

Originally Posted by Fish there is so much wrong with this post, the ICC have exhibited bias towards Pakistan is the really funny one though.

The ICC are a politicised organisation is news to you? Where have you been for the last decade?

Just out of interesnt, what else was wrong with the post?

[Robert]

This thread belongs in the playground.

Yes, Warne and Waugh did wrong. Yes, they got away lightly. Yes, CA covered it up - shame on them for that.

No, that does not excuse the Pakistanis.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by SOSami The ICC are a politicised organisation is news to you? Where have you been for the last decade? Just out of interesnt, what else was wrong with the post?

I just think it is hilarious that you would think that the ICC is biased against Pakistan and therefore the Pakistan players wont get a fair hearing. Its comedy gold to me.

[SOSami]

Originally Posted by Fish I just think it is hilarious that you would think that the ICC is biased against Pakistan and therefore the Pakistan players wont get a fair hearing. Its comedy gold to me.

You have too much faith in the ICC. I wouldn't let those clowns judge at Crufts without making them understand the need for fairness, let alone on player's guilt.

[SOSami]

Originally Posted by wasim-fan Point is SoSami, it really comes is a procedure. People talk about BCCI's clout, but even they have to hire lawyers and defend the players in front of the tribunal whether it was SA in 2002 or 2008 in Aus or PCB in last eng. tour. ALL 3 of the above trials went in favour of the complainant.The judgement is presided by an ICC triibunal, so I don't think there is any scope for bias in this kind of a trial, since any unfair practise can get challenged in civil court.

I am not making the argument that it will necessarily be the BCCI's clout, although balance of probabilities they will be actively involved in any case against Pak.

I completely agree, the ICC treated India horrendously up until around the mid 2000s too. In fact, all the Asian nations got a raw deal. Since then, India have been taken out of the nations who are dealt with harshly by the ICC as they came to prominence as a financial force. Bucknor following you around and costing you many many matches is just one example. Since the rise of the BCCI, they insisted Bucknor is no longer appointed to their matches and their appeals were not ignored. Hair followed Pak around to the bitter end, not as a result of a fair decision by the ICC.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...09/2134557.htm

Remember, at the moment Pak have not been overly aggressive towards the ICC, they have merely maintained the players innocence which some people (I'm not indicating you specifically in this matter) think is outrageous based purely on NOTW evidence.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree in relation to the ICC-bias issue.

[MC]

Originally Posted by Robert This thread belongs in the playground. Yes, Warne and Waugh did wrong. Yes, they got away lightly. Yes, CA covered it up - shame on them for that. No, that does not excuse the Pakistanis.

Oh God, you had to ruin it...

[Javelin]

Originally Posted by Robert This thread belongs in the playground. Yes, Warne and Waugh did wrong. Yes, they got away lightly. Yes, CA covered it up - shame on them for that. No, that does not excuse the Pakistanis.

No, it does not excuse the Pakistani's.

But this thread is not about the Pakistani's, it's about the Australians, especially in light of some of the Australian's making comments regarding what should happen to cricketers, any cricketers, who do wrong.

For example, in light of Ian Chappell and his comments, was Ian Chappell involved in any capacity with the investigations regarding Waugh and Warne, or the subsequent cover up by the Australians, or even any investigations regarding Warne and the drugs 'given by his Mum' ?

Was Ian Chappell aware during those 5 years of the cover-up as to what Waugh and Warne had done ?

If the answer to the above is that Ian Chappell was totally unaware of any investigations, or any cover-up, and only became aware at the same time as the rest of Joe Public, and was equally vociforous in taking stern action against Waugh and/or Warne as he is now of taking action against others, then he has a point.

Otherwise,..........

[pinger]

Originally Posted by Javelin No, it does not excuse the Pakistani's. But this thread is not about the Pakistani's, it's about the Australians, especially in light of some of the Australian's making comments regarding what should happen to cricketers, any cricketers, who do wrong. For example, in light of Ian Chappell and his comments, was Ian Chappell involved in any capacity with the investigations regarding Waugh and Warne, or the subsequent cover up by the Australians, or even any investigations regarding Warne and the drugs 'given by his Mum' ? Was Ian Chappell aware during those 5 years of the cover-up as to what Waugh and Warne had done ? If the answer to the above is that Ian Chappell was totally unaware of any investigations, or any cover-up, and only became aware at the same time as the rest of Joe Public, and was equally vociforous in taking stern action against Waugh and/or Warne as he is now of taking action against others, then he has a point. Otherwise,..........

Well if you weren't so paranoid about what your players had done you would laugh off what Chappelli said, like all the rest of us, Australians included have done.

Chappelli is an idiot.

[jeetu]

The key difference remains, Despite all CA coverup. Waugh/Warne never tanked a match , not even spot fixing allegation. Presently CA board goes tough on its players. Expulsion of Symonds prove thats.

[cricketindiafan]

Assuming they were let off easily without a thorough investigation, what needs to be considered is that back then there was nothing called "ICC anti corruption code of conduct" in existence around that time.

To give you an analogy, the doping tests started about 20-22 years ago in world of sport. There were many athletes who were accused of taking performance enhancement drugs during the earlier eras as well, but they all were let off as there were no stringent measures in place. Now just because those athletes were let off, doesnt mean dope tainted athletes of the modern era should escape punishment as well.

Can't really keep going back to this issue everytime match fixing saga hits the game of cricket.

[Javelin]

Originally Posted by jeetu The key difference remains, Despite all CA coverup

At least there is agreement that there was a cover-up by the CA.

Waugh/Warne never tanked a match , not even spot fixing allegation.

How do we know? If CA did it before, what's to say they have not done it again ?

Presently CA board goes tough on its players. Expulsion of Symonds prove thats.

So expelling Symonds because he did not toe the line as regards turning up on time for team meetings proves that CA never coverup far more serious misdemeanors ? Ones that could have a major impact on CA's ability to attract sponsors ? Well I hope that's 100% true, and remains that way.