Aql vs Blind Faith

[Tasavur]

Originally Posted by humzy as i said all these qualification were brought about later on.. your knowledge of the golden age is incorrect.. ijtihad was more based around a person being morally upright and trustworthy.. as well as basing ideas on reason.. not so much a professor..

You've made a claim here. Please substantiate it rather than simply repeating it. Which fatawa were given by anyone other than bona fide scholars? Even during the Islamic golden age, the process of sititng with teachers and going to higher centres of Islamic learning (e.g. Al-Nizamiyya in Baghdad) was very well established. The rigorous mechanisms of Islamic scholarship were established very early on in Islam's history.

If you're saying all that was required to make ijithad in shariah was a good character rather than scholarly credetials, that's a huge claim to make.

[Tasavur]

I don't think it is being derailed. Rather it's a very pertinent point to raise. If someone opened a thread on human anatomy and everyone was hazarding a guess at what the difference was between the thyroid gland and parathyroid glands, someone would be well within their right to point out that laymen are obviously not qualified to have that discussion.

Stick to the basics: salah, saum, zakah etc.

If you have a question on fiqh, go to those who study fiqh.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Tasavur I don't think it is being derailed. Rather it's a very pertinent point to raise. If someone opened a thread on human anatomy and everyone was hazardng a guess at what the difference was between the thyroid gland and parathyroid glands, someone would be well within their right to point out that laymen are obviously not qualified to have that discussion.

But then if you start discussing the intricacies of whether a layman has the right to discuss these things then there should be a separate thread.

Otherwise you would have the same detailed discussion in a thousand threads.

[shaykh1985]

I agree with Tasavur here...

Its interesting that many people point to the fact that scholars are the main problem with Islam when in fact the issue of poor scholarship is certainly a much larger problem...the fact that unqualified people are scholars and the fact that you have laymans doing DIY ijtihads and essentially creating their own school of thought...

I for one am not qualified to do ijtihad as for one I do not speak or understand Arabic...I do understand Arabic grammar and I have not spent years analysing the Quran and contextualising it...

How without knowledge of Arabic grammar can I as a layman infer whether something is recommendation or a command?...

What for instance is the legal reason behind a text, how do I analyse the strength of an evidence alone...how am I supposed to reconcile evidences that appear contradictory?...how can I distinguish between words that are aam (general) and khass (specific)...and this isnt even discussing ijtihad which is deducing new rulings based on the text...essentially many of us are reliant on knowledgeable people who have analysed the Quran and Sunnah in depth...if I want to know the law of something I would rely on a lawyer because he is qualified...I wouldnt represent myself...in the same vein I would rely on those qualified in analysing Islamic texts and producing rulings...

Am I more knowledgeable than these scholars who have dedicated their lives to Islam?...no of course not...now if you have the ability to be scholar...ie learn Arabic, Quran and Hadith sciences, Ijma and Qiyas then by all means do it an then rely on your own opinions but when does not have knowledge they should seek knowledge from those that do...the Quran does not directly answer many things and to get full answers you need other sources such as hadith...if I only read one book on something then I will only have one source...Islam has provided us the Quran and the Sunnah and full analysis of those things is required to formulate a hukm...

Now can you as a layman do that?...

Obviously the question arises then of how does one judge scholarship when I myself am not qualified...this is a tough question...so there is ijtihad on cloning...whose view do I take here...as a layman I take the opinion that makes the most sense to me...and I make it a sincere one not a beneficial one...this is evidently a lot better than plucking up a hukm myself...

To those advocating DIY hukms...please do tell me how you would tackle the issue of cloning for instance...

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 I agree with Tasavur here... Its interesting that many people point to the fact that scholars are the main problem with Islam when in fact the issue of poor scholarship is certainly a much larger problem...the fact that unqualified people are scholars and the fact that you have laymans doing DIY ijtihads and essentially creating their own school of thought... I for one am not qualified to do ijtihad as for one I do not speak or understand Arabic...I do understand Arabic grammar and I have not spent years analysing the Quran and contextualising it... How without knowledge of Arabic grammar can I as a layman infer whether something is recommendation or a command?... What for instance is the legal reason behind a text, how do I analyse the strength of an evidence alone...how am I supposed to reconcile evidences that appear contradictory?...how can I distinguish between words that are aam (general) and khass (specific)...and this isnt even discussing ijtihad which is deducing new rulings based on the text...essentially many of us are reliant on knowledgeable people who have analysed the Quran and Sunnah in depth...if I want to know the law of something I would rely on a lawyer because he is qualified...I wouldnt represent myself...in the same vein I would rely on those qualified in analysing Islamic texts and producing rulings... Am I more knowledgeable than these scholars who have dedicated their lives to Islam?...no of course not...now if you have the ability to be scholar...ie learn Arabic, Quran and Hadith sciences, Ijma and Qiyas then by all means do it an then rely on your own opinions but when does not have knowledge they should seek knowledge from those that do...the Quran does not directly answer many things and to get full answers you need other sources such as hadith...if I only read one book on something then I will only have one source...Islam has provided us the Quran and the Sunnah and full analysis of those things is required to formulate a hukm... Now can you as a layman do that?... Obviously the question arises then of how does one judge scholarship when I myself am not qualified...this is a tough question...so there is ijtihad on cloning...whose view do I take here...as a layman I take the opinion that makes the most sense to me...and I make it a sincere one not a beneficial one...this is evidently a lot better than plucking up a hukm myself... To those advocating DIY hukms...please do tell me how you would tackle the issue of cloning for instance...

As a layman how can you judge which scholar to follow?

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI As a layman how can you judge which scholar to follow?

Its not a perfect art by any means...how do I know who the best at anything is?...as a scholar I would be able to analyse someones scholastic ability better but as a layman essentially I have to rely on reputation and what makes the most sense to me...

The ideal situation is to be a scholar but if I am not then I rely on reputation and essentially if the opinion makes sense to me...

Your finding holes which do exist but essentially it is superior to deducing rulings from a language one does not understand and from texts they have not read fully...please do tell me how I as a layman can deduce a hukm on cloning without reliance on a scholar...

Please do explain how DIY ijtihad is better than following a scholar as you are advocating...

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 Its not a perfect art by any means...how do I know who the best at anything is?...as a scholar I would be able to analyse someones scholastic ability better but as a layman essentially I have to rely on reputation and what makes the most sense to me... The ideal situation is to be a scholar but if I am not then I rely on reputation and essentially if the opinion makes sense to me... Your finding holes which do exist but essentially it is superior to deducing rulings from a language one does not understand and from texts they have not read fully...please do tell me how I as a layman can deduce a hukm on cloning without reliance on a scholar... Please do explain how DIY ijtihad is better than following a scholar as you are advocating...

Its non-art. Basically its a constant chicken and egg situation.

Those that say you have to follow a scholar are stuck cos scholars can come up with wildly diverging views!

Those that try and do "hukm" are stuck cos how are they able to get to the level fo knowledge to be able to understand every detail?

Some people then try and compromise and say lets stick with the majority....

They are stuck cos the majority isnt necassarily right.


The answer is to take a step back and think....


1) Did Allah create an Islam (remember Islam is perfect in every way) that results in the insurmountable problem above? Or was that a man-made problem?


My view - Its a man made problem.

Where did it go wrong? We started to rely on people (scholars or otherwise) rather than Allahs message.

Read the Quran - How much is about rules, and how much is about guiding principles?


Islam is simple - its about doing the right thing!!

90% of what you need in Islam is available from the Quran through reading without scholarly detail and the thing between your two ears.

Where you need the detail, you have the scholars who have done some research, which you can analyse and take a view.



People spen 90% of their time trying to learn detail.... and 10% of their time focussing on actually doing the right thing.

Better to spend 90% of time trying to do the right thing. The world would be a better place.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

The thread starter has asked us to use the thing between our ears to think and understand what the answer might be (he is not asking you or anyone else to follow that).

Whether what you think the thing between your ears gave you the right answer or not, its important to go through the process.

On the D of J, when you are asked why did you do X - saying I relied on Y, wont cut it. Why? cos the next question might be why did you rely on Y, and you will say.... "Ummmm......"

If you used what was between your two ears and you are asked the same question, the answer, "I did what my Aql told me to do" would be a better answer (IMO)


PS: I am not saying that you do not utilise scholars.... they are very very important subject matter experts.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI Its non-art. Basically its a constant chicken and egg situation. Those that say you have to follow a scholar are stuck cos scholars can come up with wildly diverging views! Those that try and do "hukm" are stuck cos how are they able to get to the level fo knowledge to be able to understand every detail? Some people then try and compromise and say lets stick with the majority.... They are stuck cos the majority isnt necassarily right. The answer is to take a step back and think.... 1) Did Allah create an Islam (remember Islam is perfect in every way) that results in the insurmountable problem above? Or was that a man-made problem? My view - Its a man made problem. Where did it go wrong? We started to rely on people (scholars or otherwise) rather than Allahs message. Read the Quran - How much is about rules, and how much is about guiding principles? Islam is simple - its about doing the right thing!! 90% of what you need in Islam is available from the Quran through reading without scholarly detail and the thing between your two ears. Where you need the detail, you have the scholars who have done some research, which you can analyse and take a view.

Essentially as a layman we never know if we are correct...as a scholar you also do not know if you are correct...humans are fallible after all so scholarship can never achieve perfection and neither can a layman's ability to choose an opinion but does not mean one shuns the whole process...

I still fail to understand how you view your method as better...ie to deduce meaning from a language you don't understand and from texts you havent studied...please provide me Tafsir of the verse quoted here without relying on scholarship...when was it revealed, for what purpose etc...reading without context is heavily flawed...

Its unqualified people deducing things for themselves which is significantly more problematic than people following scholars...

Your entitled to your position but your position makes no sense to me...

Please tell me your hukm on cloning...tell me how you deduced it and provide me evidences from the Quran and Sunnah to support your view...

Your oversimplifying the faith by presuming laymans can deduce hukms themselves...

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 Essentially as a layman we never know if we are correct...as a scholar you also do not know if you are correct...humans are fallible after all so scholarship can never achieve perfection and neither can a layman's ability to choose an opinion but does not mean one shuns the whole process... I still fail to understand how you view your method as better...ie to deduce meaning from a language you don't understand and from texts you havent studied...please provide me Tafsir of the verse quoted here without relying on scholarship...when was it revealed, for what purpose etc...reading without context is heavily flawed... Its unqualified people deducing things for themselves which is significantly more problematic than people following scholars... Your entitled to your position but your position makes no sense to me... Please tell me your hukm on cloning...tell me how you deduced it and provide me evidences from the Quran and Sunnah to support your view... Your oversimplifying the faith by presuming laymans can deduce hukms themselves...

I agree we are all entitled to our position and we are simply debating the merits or otherwise of each.

Scholars or "subject matter experts" as I like to call them are key to coming up with your conclusion.... BUT it must be YOUR conclusion!!

Nowhere have I said you dont utilise available information. However, to say an individual CANNOT read what information is out there on ANY GIVEN topic and then deduce what the most SENSIBLE answer for them based on their AQL, is just wrong IMO.

Simplifying is the best way to get to the CRUX of any given issue and then extrapolate based off that.


On the matter of cloning, it has not become an issue for me, therefore I have not read enough to give "My considered view".

But I am sure that my AQL (and anyone elses for that matter) would allow me (or them) to come up with a sensible defendable answer, should the need arise.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

@Shaykh85

You said that my approach would cause more problems? Please articulate how - I would find it useful.

[youboy]

As a discussion going on about requirement of Ulema (scholars) of Islam to understand Quran or just go by using your aql.

Let us get back to Quran & Hadith

My question here what does Quran & Hadeeth say about how Ulemas are important in Islam?
Can somebody bring out Quran verses and Hadeeth about the topic of Ulema.

[zimmz]

Originally Posted by Tasavur Would you go and question a Professor of Mathematics on a maths theorem? No. The only way you could do that is by spending as long as he has, specialising in the subject and then forming your analyses.

Not again this poor analogy. Yes as a layman I'll go to Professor and raise my questions according to my understanding. I'll do same to a fellow layman so to see who else has similar understanding.
Besides Maths is a specific subject/field for a set of people.

Quran, on the other hand, is a book for each and every individual and Allah communicate directly to individual in this book. Only thing one needs is a translation. Rest is upto individuals mental capability. If he is wrong in assuming/understanding something sooner or later it will be pointed out by someone among peers. This is how human reasoning works. Ofcourse if you are not capable enough to understand or make sense of what is written in the book you can ask a better capable person to explain it (instead of blind following someone).

The point is as long as you are puting efforts into understanding and then debating/discussing with peers, you'll ultimately reach the truth.

Originally Posted by Tasavur And here we're sititng passing judgements on issue of fiqh and Islamic law. In the entire 1400 year history of Islam, even during the golden age, there was never a time when laymen were allowed to comment on specialised subjects of Islamic jurisprudence. It's dangerous to do so.

Dangerous in whose eyes? Certainly not in God's eyes since he tell us to understand his message individually.

This scare tactics over 1400 years are the reason Islam is divided into sects without proper understanding. Look where all these 'scholars' have brought us in 1400 years. Since no layman was allowed to comment, the scholars beautifully controlled their own set of masses. Divide and rule as they say. Leave every thing to Mullah and the world will be rosy posy for muslims.

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 as a layman essentially I have to rely on reputation and what makes the most sense to me... The ideal situation is to be a scholar but if I am not then I rely on reputation and essentially if the opinion makes sense to me...

Reputation is not always equal to TRUTH. As a layman if you just go for reputation you'll not find any single scholar who's explainations about every aspect of Deen is true. You'll be left to 'make sense' of individual issue which means you'll have to use your own brain and you need no to be part of any specific sect. Essentially the same thing what MR_KHAN_JI and myself is saying in all his posts.

[shaykh1985]

Mr khan ji...

You need to explain what your position on scholarship is...

As a layman in order to agree to a hukm I need to source someone who is qualified to give a hukm...I am not qualified to do so as a layman...I can't formulate my own hukms or give a fatwa etc...

I trust the scholarship of classical scholars and I follow hanafi fiqh...I don't see that as divisive...

In issues of ijtihad one requires scholarship also...I base these on reputation and essentially what agrees with me...my source has to be a scholar of some sort as I am not qualified...if a scholars deduction agrees with me then I adopt it...

Relying solely on your aql to deduce hukms is weak position...your aql doesn't help you with your lack of arabic, your inability to contextualise what you have because you haven't read other related sources or do not know how and why the verse you have read was revealed...

Do you want to offer your diy tafsir for the op's verse?...

If you are advocating that a layman can formulate hukms based on his own reading of the Quran and thus design his own fiqh then I absolutely believe that to be a dangerous approach when those doing it don't even have something basic like arabic language amongst other deficiencies...

That guy that committed murders in france may have simply picked out a verse and done a bit of diy work...

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 Mr khan ji... You need to explain what your position on scholarship is... As a layman in order to agree to a hukm I need to source someone who is qualified to give a hukm...I am not qualified to do so as a layman...I can't formulate my own hukms or give a fatwa etc... I trust the scholarship of classical scholars and I follow hanafi fiqh...I don't see that as divisive... In issues of ijtihad one requires scholarship also...I base these on reputation and essentially what agrees with me...my source has to be a scholar of some sort as I am not qualified...if a scholars deduction agrees with me then I adopt it... Relying solely on your aql to deduce hukms is weak position...your aql doesn't help you with your lack of arabic, your inability to contextualise what you have because you haven't read other related sources or do not know how and why the verse you have read was revealed... Do you want to offer your diy tafsir for the op's verse?... If you are advocating that a layman can formulate hukms based on his own reading of the Quran and thus design his own fiqh then I absolutely believe that to be a dangerous approach when those doing it don't even have something basic like arabic language amongst other deficiencies... That guy that committed murders in france may have simply picked out a verse and done a bit of diy work...

1) I think my posts have been quite clear. (???)

I think the difference is that that your train of thought is coming from a very different angle from mine and hence it is difficult to reconcile.

I would suggest taking a step outside from your current POV of thinking, and simply reading my posts for what they say.

I hope that would help.

2) That guy who committed those murders in France is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to have read the verses in the Quran and taken that approach.

it is HIGHLY LIKELY that he listened to someone (A "scholar") who he BLINDLY FOLLOWED (because they told him not to think for himself) and then did what he did.

IF and this is a BIG IF....

If the guy in France had read the Quran and simply took it for what it said, he would in NO WAY have come to the conclution that what he was doing was the RIGHT THING!!!!

3) On what basis do you "Trust" those scholars? How do you know they have made the correct conclusions? Catch 22.

You said "I follow if they agree with me... as long as they are a qualified scholar"...

what does that actually mean?

Can I follow a scholar who encourages terrorism? He is a scholar after all?

4) The OP verse is a difficult one for me to comment on, as like I said in a previous post... its one of the few areas I have not got my head around (yet - as I am working on it)

5) If you do want me to comment on a specific topic.... search for "Is Music Haraam/halal" and you will see quite a long thread where I have posted numerous times.

6) Islam is simple - Its about "Doing the right thing!"

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI 1) I think my posts have been quite clear. (???) I think the difference is that that your train of thought is coming from a very different angle from mine and hence it is difficult to reconcile. I would suggest taking a step outside from your current POV of thinking, and simply reading my posts for what they say. I hope that would help. 2) That guy who committed those murders in France is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to have read the verses in the Quran and taken that approach. it is HIGHLY LIKELY that he listened to someone (A "scholar") who he BLINDLY FOLLOWED (because they told him not to think for himself) and then did what he did. IF and this is a BIG IF.... If the guy in France had read the Quran and simply took it for what it said, he would in NO WAY have come to the conclution that what he was doing was the RIGHT THING!!!! 3) On what basis do you "Trust" those scholars? How do you know they have made the correct conclusions? Catch 22. You said "I follow if they agree with me... as long as they are a qualified scholar"... what does that actually mean? Can I follow a scholar who encourages terrorism? He is a scholar after all? 4) The OP verse is a difficult one for me to comment on, as like I said in a previous post... its one of the few areas I have not got my head around (yet - as I am working on it) 5) If you do want me to comment on a specific topic.... search for "Is Music Haraam/halal" and you will see quite a long thread where I have posted numerous times. 6) Islam is simple - Its about "Doing the right thing!"

I am saying that there are verses that can be interpreted anyway you want them to...the guy in France may have picked the verse 'kill them wherever you find them'...his scholar may also have presented him with such an interpretation...essentially though neither is necessarily wrong if you provide them with the latitude to interpret verses when it is evident they are not qualified to do so...hence my point about layman's being dangerous...

I provided an answer on a qualified scholar...I respect the classical scholars on issues of Fiqh...they have been viewed as strong scholars throughout history and a whole nations of people adopt their madhab...

In terms of ijtihad things like where they studied, what they have written, how long they have studied etc...how does one get a reputation in any field...I had a heart operation done by Dr Yakub...hes a renowned heart surgeon...I don't need to be a heart surgeon to know a good surgeon...he had a strong reputation...

I will check the Music halal thread...

Doing the right thing is as subjective a statement as one can make...

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 I am saying that there are verses that can be interpreted anyway you want them to...the guy in France may have picked the verse 'kill them wherever you find them'...his scholar may also have presented him with such an interpretation...essentially though neither is necessarily wrong if you provide them with the latitude to interpret verses when it is evident they are not qualified to do so...hence my point about layman's being dangerous... I provided an answer on a qualified scholar...I respect the classical scholars on issues of Fiqh...they have been viewed as strong scholars throughout history and a whole nations of people adopt their madhab... In terms of ijtihad things like where they studied, what they have written, how long they have studied etc...how does one get a reputation in any field...I had a heart operation done by Dr Yakub...hes a renowned heart surgeon...I don't need to be a heart surgeon to know a good surgeon...he had a strong reputation... I will check the Music halal thread... Doing the right thing is as subjective a statement as one can make...

1) Islam teaches you and guides you to do the right thing!!!

Read the Quran. Tell me what proportion is about principles and what proportion is "pedantic" rules?

Doing the right thing is not subjective. It is the primary teaching of the Quran!!

3) you make a good point about reputation!!! However it is not the right analogy.

A doctors results are measurable and hence reputation built.

The only measure you have is the "majority follows this".

The majority is not always right. Why not become a Christian???

4) qualified scholars?? There are plenty of qualifies scholars with diametrically the opposite view to you.

5) going back to "doing the right thing" ... The French guy could have relied on his own interpretation of that sentence or that of a qualified scholar... And did what he did.

BUT if he had learnt the lesson of "doing the right thing"... He would never have done what he did whether he read that phrase with the help of a scholar or his own two bit understanding

6) personal conscience is under rated!!! Read the Quran... How many times does it tell you to ponder and use your conscience and natural sense????

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Please explain to me how it is dangerous for someone sensible to read the Quran themselves?????

[Lalafied]

Originally Posted by youboy As a discussion going on about requirement of Ulema (scholars) of Islam to understand Quran or just go by using your aql. Let us get back to Quran & Hadith My question here what does Quran & Hadeeth say about how Ulemas are important in Islam? Can somebody bring out Quran verses and Hadeeth about the topic of Ulema.

Assalam Alaikum brother here it is:

Abu al-Darda’ (Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “Scholars are the inheritors of the prophets.” [Related byTirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Nasa'i, Ibn Maja, Ahmad, Ibn Hibban, and others] Ibn al-Mulaqqin, Zayla`i, Ibn Hajar, and others seemed it sound (hasan) or rigorously authentic (sahih)]

Imam al-Ayni (Allah have mercy on him) explained in his commentary on Sahih al-Bakhari, Umdat al-Qari (2.39) that this hadith is inspired from the words of Allah Most High, “Then We gave the Scripture as inheritance unto those whom We elected of Our servants.” [Qur'an, 35.32]

The knowledge possessed by these scholars is the knowledge deemed beneficial (al-`ilm al-nafi`) by Allah and His Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace). This knowledge was defined by Imam Ghazali as being, “Knowledge of the way to Allah Most High and the next life.”

Allahu'Alam

[Lalafied]

having gone through the thread, I agree with posts made by brothers Jeeway, Tasavur and Shaykh1985, may Allah (SWT) guide us all to the correct path. Ameen

[humzy]

when i said ijtihad i simply met finding meaning in the quran not making rulings on laws which govern the islamic states...

[Hasan]

Please do not try to 'understand' the Quran by yourself. Consult a scholar/aalim who has spend his life 'trying' to understand the Quran under light of Hadith because the Prophet understood Quran the best and his interpretation is the valid interpretation. You can't stand up and decline Prophets interpretation or his ways of explaining these Ayah through his actions.

This is not the way of the Sabaha. When the Prophet was dying he asked for pen and paper to write down something which will prevent the muslims from deviating from the right path. Hazrat Umar preventing this wish of the prophet from being grant noting that the Prophet was not in the correct state of mind and that the Quran was sufficient. This event is recorded in all the major both of Hadith.

[iZaman]

Hasan. Please provide source. Sounds like a fabricated Hadith.

By the way, even at times of Prophet and the rightly guided caliphs, There were Sahaba and Tabiye (Known as Fuqaha-e-saba in Madinah) who would give Fatwa and SAHABA would come and ask them about questions which they weren't sure about.

So this thing "I can understand without scholars" is out of equation, baseless and absurd.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Fuqaha_of_Medina

[Hasan]

Sahih al-Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

[Hasan]

Sahih Muslim
Book 013, Number 4016:
Ibn Abbas reported: When Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was about to leave this world, there were persons (around him) in his house, 'Umar b. al-Kbattab being one of them. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that. Thereupon Umar said: Verily Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Qur'an with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us. Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him And some among them said what 'Umar had (already) said. When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), he said: Get up (and go away) 'Ubaidullah said: Ibn Abbas used to say: There was a heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) could not write (or dictate) the document for them.

[BD-fan]

Originally Posted by Hasan This is not the way of the Sabaha. When the Prophet was dying he asked for pen and paper to write down something which will prevent the muslims from deviating from the right path. Hazrat Umar preventing this wish of the prophet from being grant noting that the Prophet was not in the correct state of mind and that the Quran was sufficient. This event is recorded in all the major both of Hadith.

He couldn't read nor write. How can he ask for a pen and paper?

[Hasan]

He couldn't read nor write. How can he ask for a pen and paper?

No evidence for this what so ever. Infact the first instruction to him from Allah were to "Read"!

[BD-fan]

Originally Posted by Hasan No evidence for this what so ever. Infact the first instruction to him from Allah were to "Read"!

I can try to debate on the "read" meaning but from a simple logical standpoint,

had he (PBUH) known how to write wouldn't the Prophet (PBUH) write the Quran himself before conveying to others? Wouldn't that be easier for him instead asking others to do so? What his hand writing was bad or something?

[iZaman]

Hasan is a Shia, I realised this after I asked him the Question.

no need to debate if you are a sunni. Our biggest Ulama couldn't satisfy them, how can we?
They won't listen to your evidences and thoughts.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Jeeway Hasan is a Shia, I realised this after I asked him the Question. no need to debate if you are a sunni. Our biggest Ulama couldn't satisfy them, how can we? They won't listen to your evidences and thoughts.

But how do you know your scholars are more right than his scholars if you are not allowed to think?

[2hands]

Originally Posted by Hasan No evidence for this what so ever. Infact the first instruction to him from Allah were to "Read"!

NO, it was 'recite'

[iZaman]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI But how do you know your scholars are more right than his scholars if you are not allowed to think?

Obvious troll is obvious.
Read Tuhfa-e-Isna Asharia by Shah Abdul Aziz (written 2-3 hundred years ago)

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Jeeway Obvious troll is obvious. Read Tuhfa-e-Isna Asharia by Shah Abdul Aziz (written 2-3 hundred years ago)

you have not answered my question.

how do you know what that guy wrote was right, if you are not allowed to think?

[Tapori]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI But how do you know your scholars are more right than his scholars if you are not allowed to think?

Because me sheikh said so!

Zimmz is spot on; No-one here is issuing a public Fatwa to be followed. Nor are we giving advice on this or that. If you don't want to discuss the book you follow then don't. Leave it to the Ulemaa who have routinely in modern times, sort to monopolize and stunt any discussion on Islamic jurisprudence from the very laymen, who the QUran was revealed for.

If the Quran is for us all, then a Translation is all that is required. If you can;t understand something, by all means go to a Scholar, I'm with you. But to suggest that the Quran is beyond the comprehension of a layman is insulting to the layman, the Quran and the Prophet (SAW) himself and Allah IMO.

If the Quran needed only specific Scholarly interpretation for its exegesis, it would say so. It doesn't.

Either the Quran is the message for mankind for all or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

If someone read the Quran and went crazy, then as these Ulemaa themselves often quote:

Allah guides who he wills.

People also go crazy listening to music, watching films, use a knife, the internet etc - Blame the person!

Scholars are definitely important, but to create a Scholarly exclusivity that can and only discuss such matters is a slap in the face of the Prophet (SAW) who was chosen to deliver the message for all mankind.

Again, you look at what Christians had to do to fight for their right to read and interpret their texts without the monopoly of the Church - Read on Martin Luther - you'll understand how important Zimmz point is, especially the refutation of the awful "Doctor" analogy, which equates the Quran in that logic, with a Medical Text book.

The Quran addresses us directly; Laymen, Richmen, Scholars doctors. Hence the utterence repeatedly of "to you" so often, it should be obvious.

No-one, but no-one is asking you to follow what people here say. But if you're gonna leave thinking and asking questions and raising issues to the Scholalry elite as it is today, then good luck to you.

[Tapori]

Originally Posted by Khan_Ji On the D of J, when you are asked why did you do X - saying I relied on Y, wont cut it. Why? cos the next question might be why did you rely on Y, and you will say.... "Ummmm......"

Best point.

Shaykh1985, I agree, sectarian Scholarship and Unacademic and Unscientific critiques need to be dealt with, but to leave all the thinking to these guys on matters that affect us all on a text that was revealed directly for us laymen, is indeed the complete antithesis of the Quran's message.

As Khan_Ji points out, will you be able to hide behind the sole refrain of "The Scholar Told Me So" if a question or thought arises, that to you seems illogical and indeed turns out to be wrong on the Scholars part?

[violet_may]

Bump.

All the relevant posts discussing the issue of 'blind faith and aql' from the 'Servant woman = GF' thread have been moved here.

Carry on

[zimmz]

VM should get salary as a mod in this month for the good work done today.

Well done

[humzy]

Originally Posted by Tapori Because me sheikh said so! Zimmz is spot on; No-one here is issuing a public Fatwa to be followed. Nor are we giving advice on this or that. If you don't want to discuss the book you follow then don't. Leave it to the Ulemaa who have routinely in modern times, sort to monopolize and stunt any discussion on Islamic jurisprudence from the very laymen, who the QUran was revealed for. If the Quran is for us all, then a Translation is all that is required. If you can;t understand something, by all means go to a Scholar, I'm with you. But to suggest that the Quran is beyond the comprehension of a layman is insulting to the layman, the Quran and the Prophet (SAW) himself and Allah IMO. If the Quran needed only specific Scholarly interpretation for its exegesis, it would say so. It doesn't. Either the Quran is the message for mankind for all or it isn't. You can't have it both ways. If someone read the Quran and went crazy, then as these Ulemaa themselves often quote: Allah guides who he wills. People also go crazy listening to music, watching films, use a knife, the internet etc - Blame the person! Scholars are definitely important, but to create a Scholarly exclusivity that can and only discuss such matters is a slap in the face of the Prophet (SAW) who was chosen to deliver the message for all mankind. Again, you look at what Christians had to do to fight for their right to read and interpret their texts without the monopoly of the Church - Read on Martin Luther - you'll understand how important Zimmz point is, especially the refutation of the awful "Doctor" analogy, which equates the Quran in that logic, with a Medical Text book. The Quran addresses us directly; Laymen, Richmen, Scholars doctors. Hence the utterence repeatedly of "to you" so often, it should be obvious. No-one, but no-one is asking you to follow what people here say. But if you're gonna leave thinking and asking questions and raising issues to the Scholalry elite as it is today, then good luck to you.

spot on.. i seem to agree with alot your thoughts my friend!

[cric_craze]

The Qur'an must be interpreted in accompliance with Hadith and the way the Sahaba interpreted them. Making up interpretations of a verse will lead people astray.

You're gonna say where in the Quran does it say to follow Hadith.
Well it says multiple times that You follow Allah and follow the Messenger. Meaning that you just interpret the Quran how you want to but how the Prophet (pbuh) taught it and how the sahaba understood it.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by violet_may Bump. All the relevant posts discussing the issue of 'blind faith and aql' from the 'Servant woman = GF' thread have been moved here. Carry on

Well done. Can't have been easy.

[azhar329]

Originally Posted by cric_craze The Qur'an must be interpreted in accompliance with Hadith and the way the Sahaba interpreted them. Making up interpretations of a verse will lead people astray. You're gonna say where in the Quran does it say to follow Hadith. Well it says multiple times that You follow Allah and follow the Messenger. Meaning that you just interpret the Quran how you want to but how the Prophet (pbuh) taught it and how the sahaba understood it.

Jazak'Allah khair brother, masha'Allah thats how we should approach our deen; in compliance with the Quran and sunnah with the understanding of the sahaaba (may Allah be pleased with them). May Allah guide us all to what pleases Him, ameen.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by azhar329 Jazak'Allah khair brother, masha'Allah thats how we should approach our deen; in compliance with the Quran and sunnah with the understanding of the sahaaba (may Allah be pleased with them). May Allah guide us all to what pleases Him, ameen.

But different scholars say the sunnah says different things... How do u know who is more right?

[2hands]

^ we have the usool (foundations) we must all agree upon, and all the scholars of ahlus-sunnah agree upon these. theres a book by shiekh Ahmed ibn Hanbal, usool us-sunnah, that book containts everything we must agree upon, for example where is Allah? he is above his throne. and so on

then you have issues of iktilaaf (difference of opinion) for example after rukoo do we place our hands on the chest or do we place them by our sides, both sides have thier evidence, you make your ijtihaad, and do the one you choose, but it doesnt make the other opinion wrong.

We unite upon the Sunnah, thats the key.

Allah said
Muhammed Sallahu alayhi wa salam said
the Sahaba understood

thats how we take our religion......

[JibranAnsari]

How many of us (who were born muslims) ever try to learn to live the religion of Islam. What is 'faith' ? Muslims do 'sajda' in submission to almighty Allah and raise their hands for 'dua' and a lot wake up even for tahajad. For me it is the 'faith' that you believe in every word said by Quran and Hadith and some (who have doubts) do their research to strengthen their faith but little research is not always enough. l would put faith above aqal as some of the very well known teachers of 'islamic study' are jews.

[2hands]

^ are you seriously going to derive islamic issues using your OPINION, thats crazy talk!

Ali may Allah be pleased with him, said, if this was a religion of logic we would wipe UNDER the feet, not OVER.

how can you use emotional feelings or opinions to determine your next life? how can you take this life not seriously?

if your islamic teachers are jews, you need some new teachers!

KNOWLEDGE PROCEEDS ACTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
how can you do an action in the name of Allah without knowing its legislation?

[Tapori]

^ Well done for missing the point of this thread.

To suggest no esteemed Scholars were ever influenced by:

Politics
Culture
Caliphs
Society
Emotions
Their own thoughts and feelings

Is disingenuous to say the least and at most is nye on conferring upon all of them a sense of sainthood based on blind faith.

Choosing which school to follow means you use your opinion by default. Furthermore, To argue against a Philosophical point is deemed tantamount to blasphemy... even though throughout Islamic history Scholars and Philosophers have been allowed and have debated many issues that do not of themselves require a a fluency in "Classical Arabic" to be understood as concepts.

Ali may Allah be pleased with him, said, if this was a religion of logic we would wipe UNDER the feet, not OVER

I hope you're not implying that Islam is not a way of life seeped in logic and reason to a large degree... The great Islamic Theologians and Philosophers would be quite incredulous at such a point. Even Ghazzali.

[Tapori]

are you seriously going to derive islamic issues using your OPINION, thats crazy talk!

Yeah, because "Scholars" never have Opinions. At all. Ever.

[Tapori]

if your islamic teachers are jews, you need some new teachers!

Some of the greatest Islamic Scholars and Philosophers were encouraged to debate on many matters with people of all faiths.

Many appreciated a great deal of the great Greek Philosophers works.

Knowledge and Truth isn't a monopoly.

[2hands]

^ you think scholars derive fataawas from opinions? its all grounded by knowledge!
did you not read how we derive all islamic rulings? we use 4 methods as stated above.

i dont think you understand what a scholar is?
the likes of the 4 imams, the razi'ain, iby taymiyah, ibn wahab, bukaree, ibn hajr, imam nawawi, tirmidee, muslim, nasirudeen, ibn baaz, fawzaan al-fawzaan

the list goes on......you think these people have derived ruling from thier opinions? no doubt scholars make mistake, imam abu hanifah, rahimahullah made a HUGE mistake, but other scolars have simply corrected his mistake, and we pray Allah forgives him for his mistake and we move on. the scholars are not infalable but to claim they derive from thier desires, is disgusting to say the least.

and like the salaf have said, who are you to even have an opinion, honestly who are you? what even gives you and me the right to say i think, we are nobody, havent studied, not fluent in fussa, memorised a little and we want to say no but i think.....

if you believe actions are not proceeded by knowledge, you are lost

an action will only be accepted in two ways
1. intention is sincerly for Allah
2. its in accordance to the sunnah

[2hands]

and i dont know who follows a school of thougt, i follow Muhammed Sallahu alayhi wa salam. isnt that the shahada?

[2hands]

and please enlighten me with a name, i repeat with a name of a scholar who used his opinion, pure opinion to derive a fatawa. Or lets take a step back and make it even easier for you, name me a scholar who was influenced by those factors you named above. please bring names.....

[iZaman]

2hands, its better if you do not debate with tapori.

Endless rhetoric stuff.

[iZaman]

Btw how has Imam Abu Hanifa made a huge mistake?
Funny to hear that from a random unknown poster.

[AnotherIndian]

Religion requires complete Blind Faith!!!

The rituals you follow are completely due to blind faith!!!

Just stop doing your religious stuff for a few days and see what happens?? Nothng!! You still be the same. Your life will not change much...

But people still follow the religious rituals for the fear of hell after they die.

I say religion is irrelevant and totally cooked up to manipulate people and control the masses..

God is good thing to believe in when we need inspiration during our worst period in our life.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Jeeway Btw how has Imam Abu Hanifa made a huge mistake? Funny to hear that from a random unknown poster.

How have you determined which scholars analysis is more right than other scholars analysis?

[iZaman]

You will say "Aql"

But let me remind you that we have a process of "Taweel" as well which means we have a limit to our Aql as well.
Otherwise verses like "Allah's hand" and other such metaphors would take us to heights of Kufr and trust me, Many got misled due to their un-extensive use of Aql.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Jeeway You will say "Aql" But let me remind you that we have a process of "Taweel" as well which means we have a limit to our Aql as well. Otherwise verses like "Allah's hand" and other such metaphors would take us to heights of Kufr and trust me, Many got misled due to their un-extensive use of Aql.

Don't worry about what I would say.

Please explain what you would say.

Please explain to me how you know your scholars are more right than other scholars.

[2hands]

ok i didnt know tapori has a history of wasting time, so i will leave it.

Imam Abu Hanifah, the great Muhadith made a mistake when he said Eeman doesnt increase and decrease. he made a MISTAKE, we dont disregard him for a mistake, we pray Allah forgives him and we pray Allah blesses him for the knowledge he has passed on.

i explained above how we take the religion.

now the ayah of Allahs hand, we dont ask someone today to explain it, we look at how the sahaba understood the verse, the sahaba are the people Allah said he is pleased with in surah bayinnah. they explain it as Allah has a hand but we dont know what the hand is like, its not like our hand because Allah says in the quran, 'there is nothing like him'

for example Allah is All-seeing, so he sees but not like us. Allah, the most high, can see the smallest creature at the bottom of the see if it moves a millimeter, he sees a black ant move on a black rock, he is not like us but we affirm he has these attributes.

Allah knows best

im no person to debate and i regret making this into a debate, but i sincerly advise people to not be careless when it comes to taking knowledge.

This knowledge is your deen, so KNOW where you take your knowledge from. you can not, i repeat can not just pick up books and not look at the author, we must know where the author is taking his religion from, etc.

Allah said
Muhammed sallahu alayhi wa salam said
the sahaba understood

i no longer want to debate, because im no1 to debate on such an important topic. we have scholars and students of knowledge to deal with these issues.

whatever of good i said was from Allah, and anything bad i said was from the shaytaan and i ask Allah to forgive me for my shortcommings.

[iZaman]

Originally Posted by 2hands ok i didnt know tapori has a history of wasting time, so i will leave it. Imam Abu Hanifah, the great Muhadith made a mistake when he said Eeman doesnt increase and decrease. he made a MISTAKE, we dont disregard him for a mistake, we pray Allah forgives him and we pray Allah blesses him for the knowledge he has passed on.

Well, you heard wrong.

Imam Abu Hanifa has the best solution to this problem of Iman.

Imam Abu Hanifa says that there are two types of Iman when we talk about Iman.
One eeman is the belief in Allah, his angels, his books, messengers, day of resurrection and that the good and bad comes from Allah. this is common in all muslims and based on this they are distinguished from Muslims and non-muslims.
the other type of eeman which is mentioned in Quran and Hadith is the "Taqwa - fear of God" which increases or decreases according to deeds and this distinguishes between a "Good" Muslim and a "bad" one.

Hence this is why all muslim eeman aren't equal in terms of Taqwa.

once again, you heard wrong. Imam Abu hanifa doesn't deny the increase and decrease in eman rather he gives a great solution to understand this apparent problem of Eeman.

[iZaman]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI Don't worry about what I would say. Please explain what you would say. Please explain to me how you know your scholars are more right than other scholars.

I did explain if you read carefully.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Jeeway I did explain if you read carefully.

Please make it clearer, if possible.

It can be difficult communicating online so it is important to be clear.

[2hands]

sorry meant increase and decrease with action

[iZaman]

@2hands, my reply remains the same.

Increase and Decrease with action changes as well according to Imam Abu Hanifa but there is a specific Iman which is the basic 6 things in which all muslims belief.
Please get rid of this mis-conception. Imam Abu Hanifa never said so.

[2hands]

^ im not debating the point, its a well known FACT Abu Haneefah said this, we still love the scholar and take from him. Abu Haneefah was not infalable, didnt know the whole deen, hes not expected to. If the companions didnt know everything how can he.

i am not critisising the great scholar, please dont take it as an attack.

ask the people of knowledge if you know not - quran

below is the answer

Shaykh Saalih Al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him), who was asked:


Esteemed shaykh, may Allaah grant you tawfeeq, is it the case that Imaam Abu Haneefah (rahimahullaah) did not enter actions into (the definition of) eemaan? And is he to be considered from the fuqahaa al murji'ah (the murji'ah scholars) – and if this is actually correct, then how do we make an excuse for this Imaam?


And the answer:


Yes, Abu Haneefah and his shaykh, Hammaad ibn Abee Sulaymaan both made this statement – that eemaan comprises speech upon the tongue and belief in the heart, and that actions of the limbs do not enter into it. And this is irjaa, without doubt. For this reason they call them ‘murji'at ul fuqahaa’ and ‘the murjiah of ahl us sunnah’. They are from ahl us Sunnah but this slight mistake occurred from them; and it is a mistake, without doubt. We do not accept the mistake from any single person, not from Abu Haneefah (rahimahullaah) nor from anyone other than him because our goal is what is correct and attainment of the Truth. And this does not decrease Imaam Abu Haneefah’s status with us.


[Explanation of Lu'mat ul I'tiqaad p 312]

[iZaman]

Originally Posted by 2hands ^ im not debating the point, its a well known FACT Abu Haneefah said this, we still love the scholar and take from him. Abu Haneefah was not infalable, didnt know the whole deen, hes not expected to. If the companions didnt know everything how can he. i am not critisising the great scholar, please dont take it as an attack. ask the people of knowledge if you know not - quran below is the answer Shaykh Saalih Al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him), who was asked: Esteemed shaykh, may Allaah grant you tawfeeq, is it the case that Imaam Abu Haneefah (rahimahullaah) did not enter actions into (the definition of) eemaan? And is he to be considered from the fuqahaa al murji'ah (the murji'ah scholars) – and if this is actually correct, then how do we make an excuse for this Imaam? And the answer: Yes, Abu Haneefah and his shaykh, Hammaad ibn Abee Sulaymaan both made this statement – that eemaan comprises speech upon the tongue and belief in the heart, and that actions of the limbs do not enter into it. And this is irjaa, without doubt. For this reason they call them ‘murji'at ul fuqahaa’ and ‘the murjiah of ahl us sunnah’. They are from ahl us Sunnah but this slight mistake occurred from them; and it is a mistake, without doubt. We do not accept the mistake from any single person, not from Abu Haneefah (rahimahullaah) nor from anyone other than him because our goal is what is correct and attainment of the Truth. And this does not decrease Imaam Abu Haneefah’s status with us. [Explanation of Lu'mat ul I'tiqaad p 312]

Expected that.
Imam Tahawi who was a follower of Imam Shafi and then later Imam Abu Hanifa, cleared this aspect.

Here is how Shah Waliullah (A great scholar of 1700s explains it)
Click here

[MR__KHAN__JI]

^

I will keep asking the same question...

How do you know one explanation is more right than the other?

[Tapori]

And do you disagree with SHia's rights to have a different opinion on Islamic Jurisprudence? Why are you not follows of the Shi'a school?

Again, The traditional Sunni folk bully the mere mention of any semblance of independent thought, but probably wouldn't dare deny a SHia's right to have their interpretation of Islam.

And this man would disagree with you both Jeeway and 2hands:

- If I were to be inspired by him would I be against Islam, or against certain schools of thought?

Again, if he hadn't have founded Pakistan, would he not have been reviled by the "traditional" Sunni Schools for say, his poem in which he spoke of God in the first person?

The issue is you both have blind faith in the Imam's you follow.

If you don't have blind faith, then you must be using choice to follow them as opposed to other Scholars or say the SHi'a School.

And if you use choice, then you are using Aql.

But if someone uses Aql to challenge anything else a man said (Yes Imam's are men), you all scream as though something tantamount to blasphemy has occurred or that the whole of Islam has been mocked or insulted,

It wasn't the case even in the civil wars and Philsophical battles in Islam's History and it shouldn't be the case today.

P.S - Allah Has Hands type anthropomorphic verses - I think you'll find before the 4 main Sunni schools emerged (and even after) Philosophers in Islam used Aql to debate amongst themselves with people on all sides of the debate (From Shia, to Muta'azilite and the early forms of Asha'arite Schools) such verses on a Metaphysical/Philosophical level.


They didn't rely on the Sahabah's interpretation of such verses...

But hey, its just rhetoric yeah? I mean to figure out my posts are rubbish you use that three-letter word...

[Tapori]

-

[Tapori]

Of course Aql is limited in a individual; Therefore everything and anything should be questioned.

That's what Science is the search for truth in empirical form; Again, man can investigate Allah's principles, but he cannot make Natural Principles.

Esteemed or common practices should be open to question if a reasoned critique is put forward. By anyone.

It's the silencing of questions and independent thought that proper gets up the nose of the 4 schools, because they can't answer rationally or if they do, they can't countenance being wrong.

They should welcome new ideas and thoughts; It's what was prevalent in their formation as Sunni Schools!!! That's the irony.

They instead opted to be non-progressive which is a slight on their own origins as a School of thought!

To deny this right to critique concepts and thoughts, is to deny a basic fundamental Islamic right enshrined in the Quran; The freedom to think and ponder and question.

Imam Abu Hanifah is from among those who expressed this second view, and he is from the elders of the Ahl al-Sunnah and their imams. Yes, the followers of his school of thought and his adherents in furu‘ (secondary issues) held different opinions. From among them were the Mu’tazilah like al-Jubba’i, Abu Hashim and al-Zamakhshari, and from among them were the Murji’ah and others. Thus, these [individuals] would follow Imam Abu Hanifah in the secondary issues of jurisprudence but they did not follow him in the fundamentals of beliefs, and they would attribute their false beliefs to Abu Hanifah (may Allah be pleased with him) in order to spread their madhhab and they would cling onto some of the statements of Imam Abu Hanifah (may Allah be pleased with him).

Oh Snap! Somebody parading a subjective opinion as fact!

And if anyone questions the Politics and civil tensions of the era's of all the Sunni Schools dominant periods, and comments on what might have influenced a particular Sunni Imam or a Sunni schools thoughts/teachings.interpretations and rulings, what happens?

They get labelled as "Fitna" or worse...

It's the Sunni way or else youz are all doomed and ain't proper Muslim

Again, if you believe the continued existence of Shia'ism and the emergence of the Sunni Schools is divorced from Politics of the era in which they emerged, then you really are using blind faith...

[iZaman]

Tapori,
There are two basic divisions when we study Islam.
Sunni and Shia.

We are talking about Sunnis here, do not ruin our conversation. You can keep up with your Aql and brilliant thinking. InshAllah we'll both meet in Jannah to reach a decision.
The Same to you Mr__Khan.

I haven't got much time to spare on a debate which is going to end on a "Agree to disagree"

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Jeeway Tapori, There are two basic divisions when we study Islam. Sunni and Shia. We are talking about Sunnis here, do not ruin our conversation. You can keep up with your Aql and brilliant thinking. InshAllah we'll both meet in Jannah to reach a decision. The Same to you Mr__Khan. I haven't got much time to spare on a debate which is going to end on a "Agree to disagree"

I will ask the same question... How do you know one scholar is more right than another?

I understand if you are scared to answer....

Scholars are known respond to such questions with the following answer.... "Do you want a chithar?" So I am not surprised you have no answer.

As ever - I totally respect your viewpoint and I am sure you are very pious.

[iZaman]

99% of the Ibadat are agreed upon by All scholars of Ahl-e-sunnah.

The differences in Scholarly opinion doesn't even make up to 2 hours of Ibadat. I consider all of the opinions as correct since all of them have an evidence for it.

Once I do those 99% of Ibadah I can think about small issues more deeply.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Jeeway 99% of the Ibadat are agreed upon by All scholars of Ahl-e-sunnah. The differences in Scholarly opinion doesn't even make up to 2 hours of Ibadat. I consider all of the opinions as correct since all of them have an evidence for it. Once I do those 99% of Ibadah I can think about small issues more deeply.

But you still havent answered the question....

How do u know those scholars are more right than others?

How do u know their evidence is more right than others?

[2hands]

“That which is Halaal is clear and that which is Haraam is clear, and between the two of them are ambiguous (mutashabihat) matters about which many people do not know. Thus he who avoids ambiguous matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honour, but he who falls into ambiguous matters (eventually) falls into that which is Haraam, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allaah’s sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh, which, if it be whole, all the body is whole, and which, if it is diseased, all of (the body) is diseased. Truly, it is the heart.”
[Related by al-Bukhaari and Muslim.

really dont know how you are going to argue with the hadeeth, its clear and scholars have made it clear

tapori, no disrepect akh, but im not reading your post and not debating, take it as victory on your behalf if you like, im not here to please people, but i kindly ask you to research the topic in more detail.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by 2hands “That which is Halaal is clear and that which is Haraam is clear, and between the two of them are ambiguous (mutashabihat) matters about which many people do not know. Thus he who avoids ambiguous matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honour, but he who falls into ambiguous matters (eventually) falls into that which is Haraam, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allaah’s sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh, which, if it be whole, all the body is whole, and which, if it is diseased, all of (the body) is diseased. Truly, it is the heart.”[Related by al-Bukhaari and Muslim. really dont know how you are going to argue with the hadeeth, its clear and scholars have made it clear tapori, no disrepect akh, but im not reading your post and not debating, take it as victory on your behalf if you like, im not here to please people, but i kindly ask you to research the topic in more detail.

Did the prophet say these EXACT words?

[2hands]

in arabic

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by 2hands in arabic

And you KNOW this for a fact?

Word for word?

Are you sure?

What if you are wrong?

[Tapori]

Still not answered Khan_ji's point and more so the question as to why you don't follow Shia'ism - All well and good to say "We are discussing Sunni Schools" but that's the point!

Why do you follow the Sunni School and not the SHia School? Is it blind faith or do you use any Aql at all to decide?

Originally Posted by 2hands but i kindly ask you to research the topic in more detail.

Brilliant advice. So where do I begin?

Do I study Sunni Scholarship or Shi'a Scholarship?

Do I have to go to a Uni/School? Which one? Any? Is there any sectarian-neutral course available?

It's all rhetoric of course. Obviously.

[2hands]

Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI And you KNOW this for a fact? Word for word? Are you sure? What if you are wrong?

u for real? go study the criteria imam muslim and imam bukharee used before recording a hadeeth.

u live in the england khan, ill tell u a masjid to go to, sit down with the brothers there and they will explain it

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by 2hands u for real? go study the criteria imam muslim and imam bukharee used before recording a hadeeth. u live in the england khan, ill tell u a masjid to go to, sit down with the brothers there and they will explain it

Please answer my questions....

it is you who put certain words in the prophets mouth and guranteed he said them word for word... not me.


If I put some words in the prophets mouth.... I would give you my proof.


I repeat!

And you KNOW this for a fact? Word for word? Are you sure? What if you are wrong?