Serious riot in London..

[Mian Hassan]

Originally Posted by Shayan Again, the governments decisions re Iraq and Afghanistan have NOTHING to do with these riots, hence your point about the public electing this government is redundant. So if shops/homes were burnt down in Pakistan tmrw, you'd be ok with it because the public elected a government that makes bad decisions?

I know that it has nothing to do with the riots

[Shayan]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal The point is, a small number of people can make a massive difference.

Agreed, but my point is, that although it can make a massive difference, these riots are not going to ultimately lead to some sort of mass hatred for foreigners and government policies against muslims, as carbon seemed to suggest.

[Markhor]

Amazing speech by Hackney woman !

http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

[Markhor]

26-year-old man who was shot in a car in Croydon has died.

[Markhor]

Waed Ali from Leicester writes: I've seen it coming! I work in education and have seen students come through the system and leave with very little prospects of a job and lifeskills. There is a lot of anger about families under financial strain, the gulf between rich and poor, the media spreading consumerism, and financial institutions putting pressure on troubled families.

This has been bubbling under the surface for a long time now but has been ignored.

Looks like the police are finally making widespread arrests and are restoring control - 3 days too late.

The UK riots are attracting worldwide reaction from BBC viewers. Mirian Macedo Pereira from Brazil writes: "First world? Third world? Or underworld? Problems like lack of education, opportunities, unemployment, discrimination, and lack of values, are not just third world problems." An anonymous viewer from China hints at double standards: "If there are riots in China, countries in the west often say happily that that is the result of an autocratic regime. Are they going to say that that is the result of a democratic system? Yu in Japan worries that these riots "will only make local people who have nothing to do with the violence suffer. And finally, Rassuditelny from Moscow, Russia, sees an opportunity: "Let's move the Olympics from London to Moscow.

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

Big hand to the brothers in Green St, defending the shops

[shaykh1985]

An interesting comment:

'Has anyone asked if the police are standing by and doing nothing for a reason? Is it part of something larger? What are the government aims by showing that the police and civil authorities are "incapable" of controlling the situation. In my experience in conflict zones - and do not kid yourself if you believe UK is not a conflict zone - these situations are deliberately allowed to escalate - and thereby creating the conditions for counter-rampages by state backed militias (EDL/BNP?). At this point, after a relatively peaceful, entirely sceptical society - riven by division - happily gives ups it rights and civil liberties to restore order, and nips any genuine desire for change - against the real enemies of the people, the capitalists and their politicians - firmly in the bud. Of course it is just observation, I could be wrong..... ?'

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Markhor This has been bubbling under the surface for a long time now but has been ignored. Looks like the police are finally making widespread arrests and are restoring control - 3 days too late.

Thanks for the updates bro...there are a lot of brilliant quotes you have posted up today...

[shaykh1985]

Wow just watching Sky News and this Kate woman is pissing me right off...

Shes asking the most leading questions imaginable and isn't even letting people speak...true example of a reporter trying to dig for specific answers rather than to genuinely find out the opinions of the public on matters...naturally thats most journalism but this is so shamefully blatant...appalling journalism...

[ash 68]

Originally Posted by nish_mate Interesting what the Russians have to say, they have taken it on a totally tangent, and the paper is not a tabloid, it is pretty much a mainstream one :facepalm "Komsomolskaya Pravda, Russia Riots that began in London on the night of Sunday 7 August are spreading across the British capital... "There is real agitation in London's outskirts where ethnic youth groups from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan live... They lack any structure; this is just a boiling cauldron... If we compare the unrest in London with riots on Moscow's Manezhnaya Ploshchad square [in December 2010], the situation here is different, though visually they are alike. These ethnic groups in London... are shouting out that the police treat them in an extremely tough way. In Russia, the ethnic majority came out on the streets to protest against the police's inaction... In the UK, the police need a consolidated political will despite its strength. The authorities should say that 'if you want to live in England, you should work and become Englishmen or go away'... Years will pass before the UK authorities venture to take tough measures in the immigration policy. But these measures will nevertheless not resemble methods used by [Libyan leader Muammar] al-Qadhafi. So, London suburbs will keep burning," says director of the Institute of Political Studies Sergey Markov.

37 people a year die in Moscow from Hate crimes - Russian style of Self limiting immigration policy

[DeadlyVenom]

I haven't heard of any Asians being involved, it seems its mostly underpriveleged blacks and whites.

[shaykh1985]

Whilst these thugs need to be brought to justice and their actions are unacceptable its been shameful how biased the media has been...emphasis has been on 'mindless' youths and poor parenting...no responsibility has been taken by the establishment on creating an environment where a revolt has taken place...

This isn't an ideological revolution with direction but is a reaction to lack of education, opportunities and unemployment which contribute to lack of integration and such value systems...its not a coincidence that these problems have taken place in the worst areas...not an excuse but it is a factor...the news continues to focus on criminals with no motivation and their mindless consumerism without asking the simple question of why?...

A couple of good quotes from today:

Mirian Macedo Pereira from Brazil writes: "First world? Third world? Or underworld? Problems like lack of education, opportunities, unemployment, discrimination, and lack of values, are not just third world problems."

'Rob, London writes: You create a society where vastly overpaid footballers and models can flaunt their wealth and behave in any manner they see fit, and are still treated as near gods by the media. You lead our youth to expect instant fame and wealth, and instead they get unemployment, poverty, and no future. And now you act surprised when they revolt.'

So be angry at these thugs like many of us including myself are...and take action if need be...but don't forget that these circumstances are caused by the establishment and discussing prevention isn't solely about more police but is about dealing with the grievances of these areas...

[in_cutter]

Two black teenage girls interviewed by BBC five live said:

"it's mad..it's fun, yeah it's fun"

Reporter: "so why are you targeting your own community?"

"we are targeting the rich people, people running business'. We want to show them we can do what we want. It's the governments fault, the conservatives or whatever they are"

Reporter: "it's 9am and you are holding a bottle of alcohol. Have you been drinking all night?"

"yeah all night"

Reporter: "are you expecting to continue tonight?"

"yeah hopefully more to come tonight"

[Shayan]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 So be angry at these thugs like many of us including myself are...and take action if need be...but don't forget that these circumstances are caused by the establishment and discussing prevention isn't solely about more police but is about dealing with the grievances of these areas...

I do agree to an extent. But there's no way that all the youths in the streets last night had the establishment on their mind. A LOT of it was mindless vandalism. Yes, this may have been caused by situations such as unemployment etc for some people, but I think many just jumped on the bandwagon and saw an opportunity.

There is disparity between the rich and the poor, and clearly there is jealousy, but there is no justification for this sort of reaction.

[IAJ]

Originally Posted by in_cutter Two black teenage girls interviewed by BBC five live said: "it's mad..it's fun, yeah it's fun" Reporter: "so why are you targeting your own community?" "we are targeting the rich people, people running business'. We want to show them we can do what we want. It's the governments fault, the conservatives or whatever they are" Reporter: "it's 9am and you are holding a bottle of alcohol. Have you been drinking all night?" "yeah all night" Reporter: "are you expecting to continue tonight?" "yeah hopefully more to come tonight"

Crazy, crazy girls!

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Shayan I do agree to an extent. But there's no way that all the youths in the streets last night had the establishment on their mind. A LOT of it was mindless vandalism. Yes, this may have been caused by situations such as unemployment etc for some people, but I think many just jumped on the bandwagon and saw an opportunity. There is disparity between the rich and the poor, and clearly there is jealousy, but there is no justification for this sort of reaction.

I'm not saying that everyone did have the establishment on their mind...what I am stating is the fact that they are 'mindless' per se isn't inherent but created...why are they mindless?...integrated people do not behave like this...they were not born criminals and were not born without values...and its easy to blame parents but their parents are from the same environment that they are...the state has to take responsibility for criminality...

Thugs are created they are not inherent...its too easy to say we need to just throw all thugs in jail which they should do...but the hard thing is dealing with why these people are thugs in the first place...

Lack of opportunities, employment and education along with a culture built on instant gratification and not hard work is a dangerous concoction...

[Poison]

One wonders what will happen when the financial crisis hits REALLY hard and these people have a real reason to riot.

[DeadlyVenom]

Poison I don't think these are the type of people that care too much about financial crisis. These are the professionaly unemployed rioting.

[Markhor]

Horrific before and after pictures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14461868

[Markhor]

Regarding water cannons - the police say water cannons are effective against large stationary crowds- not small running mobs.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom Poison I don't think these are the type of people that care too much about financial crisis. These are the professionaly unemployed rioting.

Yes but what if the 'professionally unemployed' (lol at professionally btw) increase exponentially?

[Markhor]

Crowds shouting at Boris Johnson: ''why are you here, 3 days late''

Kay Burley, from Sky News, says police have just issued a warning to the people of Ealing, as they are unsure whether there will be more violence tonight. Shops have closed early

[Fawad2010]

Originally Posted by Markhor Regarding water cannons - the police say water cannons are effective against large stationary crowds- not small running mobs.

rubber bullets are effective still.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 I'm not saying that everyone did have the establishment on their mind...what I am stating is the fact that they are 'mindless' per se isn't inherent but created...why are they mindless?...integrated people do not behave like this...they were not born criminals and were not born without values...and its easy to blame parents but their parents are from the same environment that they are...the state has to take responsibility for criminality... Thugs are created they are not inherent...its too easy to say we need to just throw all thugs in jail which they should do...but the hard thing is dealing with why these people are thugs in the first place... Lack of opportunities, employment and education along with a culture built on instant gratification and not hard work is a dangerous concoction...

Fair points but it's gone too far now. A lot of these kids may not have been born criminals but probably were born in criminal families.

In the UK there is no reason for people to be hungry they are given free housing and enough money to eat. They also have the opportunity to get themselves out of poverty if they really want to as many have over the years.

These kids are just plastic gangsters listening to rap music while smoking cheap weed and thinking they are somehow cool people who can do what they like.

The time to look into the background and reasons is later after they have been arrested and thrown in cells, chances are they will start crying and come back to reality.

[Markhor]

Omg Boris Johnson is getting badly heckled in Clapham Junction.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14464139

[KingKhanWC]

It's a free for all.

[Markhor]

Nigel Farage on BBC Radio 2 earlier demanding they send in the army. This is from the man who crashed his broomstick on election night.

He is suggesting we call in the army to "put more bodies on the streets". Use the army as police and thats exactly what you'll get.

[Mian Hassan]

Originally Posted by Markhor Regarding water cannons - the police say water cannons are effective against large stationary crowds- not small running mobs.

there is only 1 which is in ireland but that was doesn't fit through the streets thats why they cannot use it

[Markhor]

Radio 5 Live just had Hulk Hogan on talking about the riots. Seriously.

[OZGOD]

Well my sister moved back to Australia last week, just in time to avoid this. Woot.

[OZGOD]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Fair points but it's gone too far now. A lot of these kids may not have been born criminals but probably were born in criminal families. In the UK there is no reason for people to be hungry they are given free housing and enough money to eat. They also have the opportunity to get themselves out of poverty if they really want to as many have over the years. These kids are just plastic gangsters listening to rap music while smoking cheap weed and thinking they are somehow cool people who can do what they like. The time to look into the background and reasons is later after they have been arrested and thrown in cells, chances are they will start crying and come back to reality.

Agree.

What happens in most of these riots in places like the UK, the US etc is that among the rioters you have a small minority who have a genuine grievance, where the riot actually means something to them, and the rest of the majority of rioters just kids who want to cause trouble, steal things, burn cars and smash people while part of a crowd. It's a big difference from rioters from third world countries rioting because they've genuinely been shafted.

[Markhor]

Boris having a Churchillian moment

Here is Clinton Brown,who protested in the 1980s and had to serve time with a very emotional plea,even tearing his shirt off to show a scar.

[Markhor]

Comedian John Bishop condemns the violence on Richard Bacon's BBC 5 live programme. The star says: "None of us really know what's driving it. It's not rioting for any political reason, it's not rioting for any social motivation, it's not even rioting for a materialistic reason because once the lootings done why set fire to the building? And that to me, gives some sort of indication that people don't feel socially connected to the environment they're in."

Making more sense than Theresa May.

[MC]

Can people stop moaning about government's decisions and economic environment for mindless destruction by your local teenaged goons? To say that poverty leads to destroying of communities and utter criminality, is such a disgusting assessment. FYI, the 'poor' who missed out on their jobs and benefits because of government, were not protesting/rioting! These are your little thugs looting shops for fun and material gains. Those wild youngsters have free, full time education system to keep them off the streets, whats their beef? I don't see single unemployed parents taking over the streets?

UK by far has the best welfare system amongst many Western countries, the thugs didn't do all that damage to bring a political change, they simply took advantage of our ever so polite and soft policing system. These teenagers would've been broken into pieces had they done this crap in countries like USA, Germany, Italy, Russia etc (I'm not even gonna mention African or Asian, ME countries)

UK has to change its policing ways. Period. Enough of bickering about same old for everything and anything.

[Markhor]

Originally Posted by MC Can people stop moaning about government's decision and economic environment for mindless destruction? Such a disgusting assessment to say that poverty leads to destroying of community and utter criminality. FYI, the 'poor' who missed out on their jobs and benefit because of government, were not protesting! These are your little thugs looting shops for fun and material gains. These little thugs have free, full time education system to keep them off streets, whats their beef? I don't see single unemployed parents taking over the streets?

Its no coincidence that most of the rioting are in areas of high unemployment with high crime rates such as Hackney,Tottenham,Croydon and Peckham.

Let's not forget,the Tottenham protest started out as a peaceful vigil !

There was no trouble then and the community quite rightly demanded answers from the police who adopted a shoot-to-kill policy with Mark Duggan but a few thugs instigated the violence in Tottenham which has triggered the rioting elsewhere.

In such a climate,in poor council housing,difficult economic conditions especially high unemployment and a major divide between rich and poor and rough,ghetto-ised neighbourhoods,there is no surprise that street gangs thrive in these urban,inner city areas.This is where community projects are vital to get these people off the streets.

Another factor is that the media has perpetuated today's highly materialised,consumer society.There is a lot of pressure to own the latest gadgets and designer clothes and the media do not help.Social networking has added to the hysteria and you get excitable young youths who want to get in on the act.Nobody is trying to make excuses for them but to suggest this is all 'mindless' is a gross oversimplification.

You have black communities living in ghettos,who have poor relations with what they perceive to be a white-dominated police force,who target black communities in particular and automatically assume they are gangsters.

And of course,you get the anarchist element and people who are beyond repair and deservedly need to be locked up along with the ringleaders who run these gangs but the police have not helped their cause with such a slow and weak response to the rioting and failure to develop a relationship with the black community in the poorer areas of London.

[Poison]

I asked this earlier but it was lost in the thread ... do police carry weapons in the UK?

[DeadlyVenom]

Batons and Pepper spray Poison thats about all

[MC]

Originally Posted by Markhor Its no coincidence that most of the rioting are in areas of high unemployment with high crime rates such as Hackney,Tottenham,Croydon and Peckham. Let's not forget,the Tottenham protest started out as a peaceful vigil ! There was no trouble then and the community quite rightly demanded answers from the police who adopted a shoot-to-kill policy with Mark Duggan but a few thugs instigated the violence in Tottenham which has triggered the rioting elsewhere. In such a climate,in poor council housing and rough,ghetto-ised neighbourhoods,there is no surprise that street gangs thrive in these urban,inner city areas.This is where community projects are vital to get these people off the streets. You have black communities living in ghettos,who have poor relations with what they perceive to be a white-dominated police force,who target black communities in particular and automatically assume they are gangsters. And of course,you get the anarchist element and people who are beyond repair and deservedly need to be locked up along with the ringleaders who run these gangs but the police have not helped their cause with such a slow and weak response to the rioting.

Unfortunately, every country in this world has its share of rough neighbourhoods, UK is no different. But unlike UK, most of the countries know to put street thugs/anarchists back to their place.

[ace4rmspace]

Originally Posted by Poison I asked this earlier but it was lost in the thread ... do police carry weapons in the UK?

Yes. A killer smile.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by KingKhanWC Fair points but it's gone too far now. A lot of these kids may not have been born criminals but probably were born in criminal families. In the UK there is no reason for people to be hungry they are given free housing and enough money to eat. They also have the opportunity to get themselves out of poverty if they really want to as many have over the years. These kids are just plastic gangsters listening to rap music while smoking cheap weed and thinking they are somehow cool people who can do what they like. The time to look into the background and reasons is later after they have been arrested and thrown in cells, chances are they will start crying and come back to reality.

I am not stating that they shouldn't be arrested and punished...I myself am pissed at the lack of force...I've been advocating the use of crowd control equipment and still am...I have no problem with these guys getting a serious beatdown for the **** that they have done but its too simplistic to simply state they are criminals and that is it...

Prevention right now is about getting them off the street...prevention generally is about analysing the whys...its not a coincidence that these incidents are taking place in broke areas...

This country has to take some responsibility for what is going on...poverty itself is relative and that is an important thing to acknowledge...the description you gave of guys listening to rap music, smoking and not caring is endemic to any area of deprivation anywhere...

And you mention opportunities...where are they?...you know as well as I do that equality of opportunity is a myth...and times are getting harder...

I'm not offering justifications but i'm offering catalysts...its naive to simply presume criminality is inherent and by locking up these guys the problem will go away...the problems will still exist unless these areas are more integrated and invested in...

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Markhor Its no coincidence that most of the rioting are in areas of high unemployment with high crime rates such as Hackney,Tottenham,Croydon and Peckham. Let's not forget,the Tottenham protest started out as a peaceful vigil ! There was no trouble then and the community quite rightly demanded answers from the police who adopted a shoot-to-kill policy with Mark Duggan but a few thugs instigated the violence in Tottenham which has triggered the rioting elsewhere. In such a climate,in poor council housing,difficult economic conditions especially high unemployment and a major divide between rich and poor and rough,ghetto-ised neighbourhoods,there is no surprise that street gangs thrive in these urban,inner city areas.This is where community projects are vital to get these people off the streets. Another factor is that the media has perpetuated today's highly materialised,consumer society.There is a lot of pressure to own the latest gadgets and designer clothes and the media do not help.Social networking has added to the hysteria and you get excitable young youths who want to get in on the act.Nobody is trying to make excuses for them but to suggest this is all 'mindless' is a gross oversimplification. You have black communities living in ghettos,who have poor relations with what they perceive to be a white-dominated police force,who target black communities in particular and automatically assume they are gangsters. And of course,you get the anarchist element and people who are beyond repair and deservedly need to be locked up along with the ringleaders who run these gangs but the police have not helped their cause with such a slow and weak response to the rioting and failure to develop a relationship with the black community in the poorer areas of London.

Completely agree...

[Poison]

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom Batons and Pepper spray Poison thats about all

See if authority doesn't have a real means of enforcement their authority is largely diminished. In Oz every cop carries a weapon and thus people don't attack them (unless dumb, drunk, retarded etc) ... if the same rioters above attacked cops in the same way they attacked the riot squad officers in Oz ... there'd be one hell of a beatdown

[DeadlyVenom]

Originally Posted by Poison See if authority doesn't have a real means of enforcement their authority is largely diminished. In Oz every cop carries a weapon and thus people don't attack them (unless dumb, drunk, retarded etc) ... if the same rioters above attacked cops in the same way they attacked the riot squad officers in Oz ... there'd be one hell of a beatdown

What kind of weapons do they carry in Oz? Our police is just weak, I don't think it would matter if they were armed or not. I was watching videos yesterday and there was a line of policemen in riot gear being driven back by a couple of guys.

All they have to do would be to employ a more aggressive attitude instead of these defensive tactics. Yes weapons would probably make a bit of a difference but until the police are allowed to become more aggressive people will be willing to take them on.

They need to start breaking jaws tonight!

[MC]

The real and much needed prevention will take place when these troubled youth start fearing the police, when there's a real danger of getting your ass whipped. Sorry but no country in this world is all about roses and bees.

Imagine what will become of USA if they also our style of policing system? Britain is seriously no match for the gang, gun, ghetto culture of the States, yet their police wastes no opportunity of openly knocking down thugs.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Poison See if authority doesn't have a real means of enforcement their authority is largely diminished. In Oz every cop carries a weapon and thus people don't attack them (unless dumb, drunk, retarded etc) ... if the same rioters above attacked cops in the same way they attacked the riot squad officers in Oz ... there'd be one hell of a beatdown

Which is part of the reason it has spread...there has been no deterrence...its ridiculous that people are defending their own property while police watch...

The police here can kill you unnecessarily but can't use force when its actually necessary...

The Far Right in this country are gloating big time...I can see the BNP and EDL having a lot to say...

[Fawad2010]

I didn't know that UK Police doesn't usually carry guns

glorified watchmen they are!

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by MC The real and much needed prevention will take place when these troubled youth start fearing the police, when there's a real danger of getting your ass whipped. Sorry but no country in this world is all about roses and bees. Imagine what will become of USA if they also our style of policing system? Britain is seriously no match for the gang, gun, ghetto culture of the States, yet their police wastes no opportunity of knocking down thugs.

Lol did you seriously use the USA as an example of crime prevention

[Markhor]

Kay Burley is trending on Twitter for all the wrong reasons.

[DeadlyVenom]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-riot-yob.html

Warfare I hope you didnt get caught on camera when you were nicking me a laptop.

[DeadlyVenom]

Originally Posted by Fawad2010 I didn't know that UK Police doesn't usually carry guns glorified watchmen they are!

No real need for the police to carry guns when the majority of the public don't carry them. It would put too much power in the hands of the police, which looks like a good thing today because of the riots but is not something that I would feel comfortable with.

[Markhor]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00jpw7j

Hulk Hogan is talking to serious news sources about the London riots. I don't think a boot to the face and a leg drop is going to calm things.

[Poison]

I'm pretty sure they all carry a gun, baton and taser

[shaykh1985]

Lol this is funny...I would have like to see his face when he said it...

Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast has urged the UK government to avoid "harsh confrontation" and exercise restraint when dealing with demonstrators, BBC Monitoring reports.

[MC]

Originally Posted by Markhor Its no coincidence that most of the rioting are in areas of high unemployment with high crime rates such as Hackney,Tottenham,Croydon and Peckham. Let's not forget,the Tottenham protest started out as a peaceful vigil ! There was no trouble then and the community quite rightly demanded answers from the police who adopted a shoot-to-kill policy with Mark Duggan but a few thugs instigated the violence in Tottenham which has triggered the rioting elsewhere. In such a climate,in poor council housing,difficult economic conditions especially high unemployment and a major divide between rich and poor and rough,ghetto-ised neighbourhoods,there is no surprise that street gangs thrive in these urban,inner city areas.This is where community projects are vital to get these people off the streets. Another factor is that the media has perpetuated today's highly materialised,consumer society.There is a lot of pressure to own the latest gadgets and designer clothes and the media do not help.Social networking has added to the hysteria and you get excitable young youths who want to get in on the act.Nobody is trying to make excuses for them but to suggest this is all 'mindless' is a gross oversimplification. You have black communities living in ghettos,who have poor relations with what they perceive to be a white-dominated police force,who target black communities in particular and automatically assume they are gangsters. And of course,you get the anarchist element and people who are beyond repair and deservedly need to be locked up along with the ringleaders who run these gangs but the police have not helped their cause with such a slow and weak response to the rioting and failure to develop a relationship with the black community in the poorer areas of London.

To say it takes 'mindfulness' to destroy your own community, human livelihoods and causing mayhem is utterly pathetic.

I don't even want to question the moral state of people who are so happy to give these handful of criminals all the credit and sympathy in the world just because they don't like the current establishment. I mean are you confusing legitimate student protests that we saw few months back with this total thuggery? Have some respect for the people who've lost their livelihoods because these little champs.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by Markhor http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00jpw7j Hulk Hogan is talking to serious news sources about the London riots. I don't think a boot to the face and a leg drop is going to calm things.

He wants to save his UK Hulkamaniacs....

[Poison]

I spose use of lethal force is out of the question now though, would only make things worse

[Markhor]

Tottenham MP David Lammy is suggesting Blackberry suspend their messaging service to stop rioters communicating.

[Warfare]

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-riot-yob.html Warfare I hope you didnt get caught on camera when you were nicking me a laptop.

Don't worry I was wearing a mask

[MC]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 Lol did you seriously use the USA as an example of crime prevention

You should've read the post more carefully. I say give Britain, the American style policing system and that itself will be a single most important step towards crime prevention and keeping the youth off the streets.

You don't guard ghettos and manage anarchists by being gloried watchmen!

[Markhor]

Originally Posted by MC I don't even want to question the moral state of people who are so happy to give these handful of criminals all the credit and sympathy in the world just because they don't like the current establishment. I mean are you confusing legitimate student protests that we saw few months back with this total thuggery? Have some respect for the people who've lost their livelihoods because these little champs.

How am I giving them credit and sympathy ? BTW I support austerity measures because of the deficit,we cannot carry on spending and borrowing like under Labour,but I think common sense should prevail here and the poorest areas of the UK should be exempt from cuts to community projects which are vital in keeping the youths off the streets.

Its easy to say 'oh let's throw them all in jail','bring back borstal' - you only end up continuing the vicious cycle and fail to address the long-term issues.This short-term,knee jerk reactionary mindset will only exacerbate the problem.

As for legitimate student protests,I don't think insulting the World War dead by swinging on the Cenotaph was legitimate.Students in other countries have to pay a lot more for higher education there.

[Warfare]

Originally Posted by MC You should've read the post more carefully. I say give Britain, the American style policing system and that itself will be a single most important step towards crime prevention and keeping the youth off the streets. You don't guard ghettos and manage anarchists by being gloried watchmen!

Or better yet, give these thugs the Pakistani treatment

[MC]

Originally Posted by Markhor As for legitimate student protests,I don't think insulting the World War dead by swinging on the Cenotaph was legitimate.Students in other countries have to pay a lot more for higher education there.

Yeah it would've been all 'legitimate' and a really nice thing to do if the student was some poor guy from a ghetto. ;)

Its easy to say 'oh let's throw them all in jail','bring back borstal' - you only end up continuing the vicious cycle and fail to address the long-term issues.

Just because its easy doesn't mean its not the right solution.

[ElRaja]

i was out a while ago, and stratford town centre shut down early today, gues its better to be safe than sorry.

markhor normally i agree with you on a lot of stuff, but in this case i have to disagree a bit, whilst no doubt some people may have political motivations in the initial stages of the riots i dont think that is the case now.

you dont rob mobile phone shops and jd sports to make a political point. you can tell by looking at the looters they are having a great time enojoying themselves. it is certainly not mindless, people want to nick stuff. i seen a lot of people burning cars in hackney, but that used to happen anyway, only difference is the media is looking now.

i grew up in hackney, spent nearly 10 years there and i dont buy the whole government needs to do this and that to get people off the streets, when we were bored we played sports, football, tennis, cricket whatever it was all free.

when we wanted to socialise we would meet up maybe go play xbox or ps at a mates house, if it was a big occasion go down edgware road and smoke some sheesha.

but when mates of mine wanted to hang around on street corners creating mischief it wasnt for a lack of things to do, ppl did that because they were generally getting up to no good for material gains.

parents have to take responsibiltiy, i knew lots of boys, some black, who would never do anything wrong cos they knew they would get beats from their parents, others did whatever they wanted cos their parents didnt care. i myself never got too involved because i knew my parents wouldnt accept it.

people need to take responsibility for their own actions, blaming current culture or govt policy is wrong because we all have to deal with it and live by the same rules. maybe 1000 or so looters came out on london streets, millions of teen didnt, that says something too.

one exception i would definately make is the scrapping of ema, i know govt needs to save money but to get rid of it was a big mistake.

[KingKhanWC]

Originally Posted by shaykh1985 I am not stating that they shouldn't be arrested and punished...I myself am pissed at the lack of force...I've been advocating the use of crowd control equipment and still am...I have no problem with these guys getting a serious beatdown for the **** that they have done but its too simplistic to simply state they are criminals and that is it... Prevention right now is about getting them off the street...prevention generally is about analysing the whys...its not a coincidence that these incidents are taking place in broke areas... This country has to take some responsibility for what is going on...poverty itself is relative and that is an important thing to acknowledge...the description you gave of guys listening to rap music, smoking and not caring is endemic to any area of deprivation anywhere... And you mention opportunities...where are they?...you know as well as I do that equality of opportunity is a myth...and times are getting harder... I'm not offering justifications but i'm offering catalysts...its naive to simply presume criminality is inherent and by locking up these guys the problem will go away...the problems will still exist unless these areas are more integrated and invested in...

The majority of these looters are kids on their summer holidays from school, they are too young to have jobs. They get free schooling, free healthcare and the opportunity to become someone in life, what other opportunities do kids need apart from this? Sure they is a lot of discrimination towards minorities but this is for Asians too but the vast majority of these kids are either blacks or whites why is that?

There are plenty, the majority of kids and families who have also suffered the same problems but are not getting involved in looting or burning down properties.

The parents of these kids have not bought up them as they should have , they too have to take responsibility, it's as much as a social issue as an issue of their inherent treatment from the establishment over the years.

I am totally for looking into the reasons so it doesn't happen again but a crime is a crime and people should be punished because it is affecting society at large. As I said before lock up most of these kids for 24hrs and they will end up crying.

[MC]

With so much excited voices about youth need this, youth need that, we need jobs, we need space etc, I wonder how many people will even bother understanding next time government says we need to cut down immigration/foreign students to give priority to the locals?

[Tapori]

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...s-2333991.html

Brilliant analysis from someone who has worked hard at a grassroots level.

Again, notice the difference between those who feel part of "The Community"; Dalston/Southhall i.e. Protecting it.

And those who don't; Those that don't have a stake in their community.

Understanding why is not the same as condoning the rioters actions.

The Scoiety, with its reality of inequality and deprivation in some of the poorest areas has kerosene poured all over it when the Media and society as a whole are enveloped in purely Hedonistic Materialism, where the Indivdual Self and its needs outweigh due care and thought for anyone elses feelings.



Just look at Ruthless reality shows, Celeb Excess, - You have Kids having Kids and the cycle just spirals downwards.

The "Free-Market" indeed.

[the SHA]

Talk about picking the wrong day to drive through West London last night! I saw unbelievable things. Unbelievable!! Still in shock.

[Markhor]

Originally Posted by MC Yeah it would've been all 'legitimate' and a really nice thing to do if the student was some poor guy from a ghetto. ;)

I couldn't give a damn who it is,I lost all respect for those 'students' when they started trashing the Cenotaph.

Just because its easy doesn't mean its not the right solution.

So we should do what the US does ? They lock up 738 per 100,000 and have the highest prison population in the world.

Police in Tottenham are thought as by the black community as a white-dominated force and there has been little improvement since the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985.

This wouldn't have happened if the police bothered to talk to Mark Duggan's family and talked to the local community at once.

Instead they went straight to the media and worsened the situation,leading up the Saturday night vigil which was peaceful,but then turned violent by anarchist,criminal thugs.

Britain should have tougher sentencing as a deterrent,there is no doubt about that,a slap on the wrist is not enough but people cannot ignore and fall for the biased media coverage which has been a mouthpiece for the police and quick to point out 'mindless thuggery'.

It smacks of a cover-up as to what the real problem is and that is negligent policing,total failure to protect property and businesses and failure to build relations with disaffected communities,especially the ghetto-ised areas of London.

As for Birmingham and the other parts of the country affected,it is the criminal element and opportunism,of course there is no explanation for that.

[pia786]

[pia786]

More pictures of looters :-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...w-looters.html

[Markhor]

Breaking News - In the last hour several shop windows have been smashed in West Bromwich. Up to 200 youths in hoodies have been seen on the streets and police have now pushed the crowd to one side.

[ElRaja]

yes these riots and looting is for political reasons......

http://london.craigslist.co.uk/mob/2536072357.html

[90MPH]

Tonight will be the real test - I just wonder if the 16000 police will make a big difference.

[shaykh1985]

Originally Posted by MC You should've read the post more carefully. I say give Britain, the American style policing system and that itself will be a single most important step towards crime prevention and keeping the youth off the streets. You don't guard ghettos and manage anarchists by being gloried watchmen!

Plenty of people like myself are furious with the police response but its hilarious that you use the USA as an example of how to do solve crime...

It has the highest incarceration and reoffending rate in the world...

Much like yourself they are not interested in causes...the idea of prevention being the best cure is to prevent criminality...the USA simply prevents criminals without preventing criminality...and consequently does not prevent criminality...

Your naive if you think these problems will go away if these mindless looters are arrested and punished...they should be but the problem doesnt end there...

If you notice the youth who have been interviewed today have all stated that the looting is wrong but have emphasised the frustration, disillusionment and lack of opportunity of youth in certain areas...is there anything wrong with stating that these factors need to be looked at in order to understand future prevention?...

[MC]

Originally Posted by Markhor So we should do what the US does ? They lock up 738 per 100,000 and have the highest prison population in the world. Police in Tottenham are thought as by the black community as a white-dominated force and there has been little improvement since the Broadwater Farm riots of 1985. This wouldn't have happened if the police bothered to talk to Mark Duggan's family and talked to the local community at once. Instead they went straight to the media and worsened the situation,leading up the Saturday night vigil which was peaceful,but then turned violent by anarchist,criminal thugs. Britain should have tougher sentencing as a deterrent,there is no doubt about that,a slap on the wrist is not enough but people cannot ignore and fall for the biased media coverage which has been a mouthpiece for the police and quick to point out 'mindless thuggery'. It smacks of a cover-up as to what the real problem is and that is negligent policing,total failure to protect property and businesses and failure to build relations with disaffected communities.

Please. The looting of big stores, charity shops, restaurants, beauty parlors, burning down of business buildings, vehicles and resident places since last three days have nothing to with the murder of Mark Duggan. Protest for his murder only lasted for few hours on the first day, after that its been a total display of mindless, opportunistic thuggery.

I've already told you already that I have ZERO sympathy or praise for those criminals and you can't make me!

Ironic you've lost respect for the student protest after seeing a student crashing the Cenotaph yet you are happily defending the thuggery that's destroyed livelihoods of many? Haven't you lost any respect for the bloody little goons who've turned the areas into total war zone?

[90MPH]

These riots are not for political reasons - its something else. Maybe once this has died down it can be analysed and then we will find the reasons what the motivations was.

[DeadlyVenom]

Originally Posted by ElRaja yes these riots and looting is for political reasons...... http://london.craigslist.co.uk/mob/2536072357.html

[90MPH]

Everyone knows the looting/rioting has nothing to do with Mark duggan, but that incident was the match that ignited all this. I don't think anyone has any sympathy for these thugs and there has to be law and order but if you don't tackle the roots of the problem you will never solve it.

America has a huge crime rate - that too with death penalty and life meaning life jail sentences but all evidence indicates it does not deter criminality as they never tackle the roots or worse ignore it.

[Shayan]

I'm in Leeds, can hear some sirens and we've been told not to stay late.

[Markhor]

Originally Posted by ElRaja i was out a while ago, and stratford town centre shut down early today, gues its better to be safe than sorry. markhor normally i agree with you on a lot of stuff, but in this case i have to disagree a bit, whilst no doubt some people may have political motivations in the initial stages of the riots i dont think that is the case now. you dont rob mobile phone shops and jd sports to make a political point. you can tell by looking at the looters they are having a great time enojoying themselves. it is certainly not mindless, people want to nick stuff. i seen a lot of people burning cars in hackney, but that used to happen anyway, only difference is the media is looking now.

It is a perverse idea of fun so that is precisely why community schemes and disenfranchisement needs to be tackled.

As for those who are not spurred on by unemployment or lack of opportunity,and are purely spurred on by criminality - I'm certainly not defending them.They of course they deserve to be locked up but obviously it is difficult to decipher those who are angry over lack of opportunities and those who are in it for the criminality.

All I'm saying is look at the root causes of all this.Norway is a permissive and liberal society but it does not have such issues with crime (barring Breivik) on the scale that Britain does nor does it have such a large prison population than we do.

parents have to take responsibiltiy, i knew lots of boys, some black, who would never do anything wrong cos they knew they would get beats from their parents, others did whatever they wanted cos their parents didnt care. i myself never got too involved because i knew my parents wouldnt accept it.

Politicians and police are calling for parents to contact their children but I highly doubt some of these rioters listen to their parents,have parents in the first place as social deprivation does contribute towards dysfunctional families or the parents themselves are rioting.

people need to take responsibility for their own actions, blaming current culture or govt policy is wrong because we all have to deal with it and live by the same rules. maybe 1000 or so looters came out on london streets, millions of teen didnt, that says something too.

Some areas may be more economically deprived that others.I agree that people must take responsibility but people lash out in different ways.