Family Honour And Dishonour In The UK

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by LongHorn Its not about anti western rhetoric, its just that they are muted on most issues compared to the typical British tabloid or even broadsheet British papers arent just anti-Arab, the way they criticize their own ministers/players is beyond what any Gulf paper will do for their own. Not necessarily a bad idea, as irresponsible journalism doesnt do anyone any good

On that I would agree. I think the British press is slightly xenophobic with a few honourable exceptions, but on the whole it's still better to have open debate than to be too restrictive. Obviously with the phone hacking scandals we can see there is a limit.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by TAK sounds like they deserve it, low class b u m s

They deserve a better life here. Let's petition our MPs to grant mass visas and save them from their miserable lives in the UAE

[TAK]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat They deserve a better life here. Let's petition our MPs to grant mass visas and save them from their miserable lives in the UAE

their lives in the uae are miserable

show a little humilty and be grateful that yours is not so

the vast majority of us pakistani origin people are from peasant backgrounds

uneducated parents in mann many cases

not disimilar to the men who are breaking their backs on billion dollar building projects

there but for the grace of god go we

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Here you go TAK, it seems like the under-trodden labourers in the UAE have heard that we sympathise with their plight and there's now a stampede for UK visas as we provide the solution while others can only offer unconstructive criticism.

[TAK]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat Here you go TAK, it seems like the under-trodden labourers in the UAE have heard that we sympathise with their plight and there's now a stampede for UK visas as we provide the solution while others can only offer unconstructive criticism.

have some shame

in fact don't

purse you lips gently up to the arab sphincter and inhale deeply

thats a good boy

make sure you show your love

[Namak_Halaal]

There's a reason why God didn’t have a female prophet or messenger.

The moment people realise men and women are not the same, do not share the same responsibilities, is the day the world will move forward. Note, I said responsibilities not rights.

Ever since a woman decided to do a man's job, and vice versa, the world has been messed up.

Did anyone catch the picture of Elton John and his gay partner holding their baby in the Metro the other day? Tell me it did not look weird. That’s right, be honest with yourself.

Children are the future of the earth, but if they are not raised properly, naturally, the way it’s meant to be, then don’t complain about the state of society, or when women decide to sell their bodies for a paltry price.

Aurat ghar ki izzat hoti hai.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by TAK have some shame in fact don't purse you lips gently up to the arab sphincter and inhale deeply

I'd like to think we Brits can offer a better alternative and lead by example. Let's bring them here. Maybe we can get Rupert Murdoch to join our appeal.

[TAK]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat I'd like to think we Brits can offer a better alternative and lead by example. Let's bring them here. Maybe we can get Rupert Murdoch to join our appeal.

whats you own background captain?

pakistan?

rural area?

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by TAK whats you own background captain? pakistan? rural area?

If you mean my parents background, India originally then Pakistan mixed rural/city.

Yours?

[TAK]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat If you mean my parents background, India originally then Pakistan mixed rural/city. Yours?

parents are from the same village in northern punjab

i'm just a little suprised at your mocking of labourers in the uae

they are not that differnt form the men that arrived on these shores in the 60's

thought you might be some kind of urdu speaking elitist offspring

evidently you are not

which just suprises me even more

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by TAK parents are from the same village in northern punjab i'm just a little suprised at your mocking of labourers in the uae they are not that differnt form the men that arrived on these shores in the 60's thought you might be some kind of urdu speaking elitist offspring evidently you are not which just suprises me even more

I'm not mocking them. You probably know there are already unhappiness in the UK at large numbers of unskilled immigrants coming here so you can imagine they would hardly be welcomed here. It wasn't an entirely serious suggestion that we enlist Rupert Murdoch's help to bring them here.

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal There's a reason why God didn’t have a female prophet or messenger.

Would people like you have listened to a female prophet?

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Ever since a woman decided to do a man's job, and vice versa, the world has been messed up.

Fighting wild animals was a man's job. sitting on a computer and working in MNCs can be either's

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Children are the future of the earth, but if they are not raised properly, naturally, the way it’s meant to be, then don’t complain about the state of society, or when women decide to sell their bodies for a paltry price.

Perhaps women will prefer that society than one where their dreams and aspirations are confined within the four walls of a building. One where they have no career, no dreams except cooking for their men and raising their children.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Aurat ghar ki izzat hoti hai.

This was the most convient way men have exploited and subdued women over ages. When men from a family are rapists and killers, the honor of the family is not affected. But a woman working and wearing liberal clothes affects the honor. Lets make women the 'izzat' of the house and then shut them up behind a veil and behind four walls. What better way to control them for ever. And who decided this, the men of course. Women are used by barter and forced into marriages by parents. a brother who drinks alcohol and has ten white girl friend will kill his own sister if she even speaks to other men. Subconsiously, in a changing world, men stuck in the past feel insecure and lost. No wonder they try to control women in whatever way possible, going to the extent of even killing them. Honor has nothing to do with anything, its all to do with power struggle and a deep rooted sense of insecurity

[LongHorn]

Originally Posted by Indiafan This was the most convient way men have exploited and subdued women over ages. When men from a family are rapists and killers, the honor of the family is not affected. But a woman working and wearing liberal clothes affects the honor. Lets make women the 'izzat' of the house and then shut them up behind a veil and behind four walls. What better way to control them for ever. And who decided this, the men of course. Women are used by barter and forced into marriages by parents. a brother who drinks alcohol and has ten white girl friend will kill his own sister if she even speaks to other men.

Its a cultural issue: the whole daughters alone are the "honor of family".
In Islam, both a son and daughter are the family's honor, and either of them commiting a sin is equally bad .

Its a cultural skewed belief that "a son's crime has nothing to do with family but a daughter's crime is the family's crime"

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Indiafan Would people like you have listened to a female prophet?

I listen to my ami. What’s the difference?

The point I was making is that God created women for a different role, that role is not to lead men, but to lead the future of Earth (children). Educate a man and you educate a person, educate a women and you educate a family.

Originally Posted by Indiafan Fighting wild animals was a man's job. sitting on a computer and working in MNCs can be either's

Women excel in caring roles. Teaching, Nursing, that sort of thing.

Do you not see?

Originally Posted by Indiafan Perhaps women will prefer that society than one where their dreams and aspirations are confined within the four walls of a building. One where they have no career, no dreams except cooking for their men and raising their children.

I know plenty of friends and families where both man and woman do what they have to do and enjoy life at the same time.

Were you not defending children in the other thread? How about a little perspective here and ask yourself how would a child end up if there was no mother to look after it, if there was no father to provide for it. Balance.

Did you see the picture of Elton John and his gay partner holding their baby? Since you care about how children are raised, what do you have to say about homosexual men raising a child? Clearly such an act is evil, simply because it denies the child the right to a normal life. You may palm this point of as irrelevant, but the point is the picture is missing a woman.

It's a woman that makes a house a home.

Originally Posted by Indiafan This was the most convient way men have exploited and subdued women over ages. When men from a family are rapists and killers, the honor of the family is not affected. But a woman working and wearing liberal clothes affects the honor. Lets make women the 'izzat' of the house and then shut them up behind a veil and behind four walls. What better way to control them for ever. And who decided this, the men of course. Women are used by barter and forced into marriages by parents. a brother who drinks alcohol and has ten white girl friend will kill his own sister if she even speaks to other men. Subconsiously, in a changing world, men stuck in the past feel insecure and lost. No wonder they try to control women in whatever way possible, going to the extent of even killing them. Honor has nothing to do with anything, its all to do with power struggle and a deep rooted sense of insecurity

Amazing, absolutely amazing. You spend day and night defending women but when a man respects a woman by stating a woman is Izzat of the home, her family, you post a sweeping generalisation above.

A woman is a blessing from day dot. Do you know why? It has nothing to do with concepts or men.

A woman is the medium by which God’s creation walks on the Earth, hence God blows his spirit in a woman.

Woman was Izzat, is Izzat, and forever shall remain Izzat as ordained by God.

Even if you do not believe in God, a woman remains the medium of life thus remains Izzat – that is until you figure out how men can give birth to life.

Citing extenuating circumstances as you have above doesn’t change this fact for love nor money.

What worked for 5000 years will work for another 5000 years. You will not understand this because your idea of women's rights is for a woman to abandon her natural duties - that is when giving birth, she should nuture, raise, and educate her children as a top priority for the betterment of the world, but you reject this, to you a women should sell her body if she feels like it, should dress in scantily outfits if she feels like it, should hang around with men if she feels like it - all in the name of equal rights and freedom - then you worry about the state of society/world.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal There's a reason why God didn’t have a female prophet or messenger.

Mary wrote a Gospel, but the cult of Paul was misogynist and had her stories thrown out of what came to be the Bible.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by Indiafan Would people like you have listened to a female prophet? Fighting wild animals was a man's job. sitting on a computer and working in MNCs can be either's Perhaps women will prefer that society than one where their dreams and aspirations are confined within the four walls of a building. One where they have no career, no dreams except cooking for their men and raising their children. This was the most convient way men have exploited and subdued women over ages. When men from a family are rapists and killers, the honor of the family is not affected. But a woman working and wearing liberal clothes affects the honor. Lets make women the 'izzat' of the house and then shut them up behind a veil and behind four walls. What better way to control them for ever. And who decided this, the men of course. Women are used by barter and forced into marriages by parents. a brother who drinks alcohol and has ten white girl friend will kill his own sister if she even speaks to other men. Subconsiously, in a changing world, men stuck in the past feel insecure and lost. No wonder they try to control women in whatever way possible, going to the extent of even killing them. Honor has nothing to do with anything, its all to do with power struggle and a deep rooted sense of insecurity

Great post. Now when India starts practising what you are preaching you can get back to us.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Robert Mary wrote a Gospel, but the cult of Paul was misogynist and had her stories thrown out of what came to be the Bible.

No Prophet or Messenger can walk the Earth in the absence of a woman. They can however walk in the absence of men, Jesus and Adam (PBUT).

People fail to realise the significance of a woman. To some women are the salt of the Earth, to others, a woman neglecting her child, abandoning her responsibilities for the sake of drugs, booze, wanton sex, IPL parties, freedom, is acceptable. Take Indianfan's POV as an example.

Both men and women are at fault, but this doesn't change our responsibilities as both men and women.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat Great post. Now when India starts practising what you are preaching you can get back to us.

Agree. Great post. When a man respects and honours a woman it's because men are insecure. You couldn't make it up.

What Indianfan fails to realise is that if and when both men and women uphold their responsibilites then there'd be no issues - balance. Instead Indianfan wants to tilt the balance thus is more concerned by how men treat women rather than how women treat children.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

While Indians certainly paint a very impressive picture on the internet with their liberal talk it's not actually reflected in real life. Indian women are still very subservient in the traditional family home. Pakistanis have the religious influence to blame. I wonder why India's been so slow to cast off their sexism?

[Saudi]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat Great post. Now when India starts practising what you are preaching you can get back to us.

Ad hominem argument.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal No Prophet or Messenger can walk the Earth in the absence of a woman. They can however walk in the absence of men, Jesus and Adam (PBUT). People fail to realise the significance of a woman. To some women are the salt of the Earth, to others, a woman neglecting her child, abandoning her responsibilities for the sake of drugs, booze, wanton sex, IPL parties, freedom, is acceptable. Take Indianfan's POV as an example. Both men and women are at fault, but this doesn't change our responsibilities as both men and women.

NH you're using an extremely black and white example to demonstrate your point, not to mention you're just making a strawman out of Indiafan. Thats not his POV at all. In fact your last few posts have consisted of such black and white examples.

I've noticed this is quite a recurring themes in threads about women/freedom etc, by the way, this way of thinking in extremes, so its always burka vs bikini or conservative and modest vs decadent and promiscuous.

And as for my own opinion on this matter, I've always felt that any restrictions on what women can wear or what they can or can't do is unjustified. There are obviously differences between the sexes and certain roles that suit women better but imposing certain obligations on them has never gone down well with me.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not sure what an ad hominem argument means but regardless, my point is that when internet talk isn't matched by reality then there's a whiff of hypocrisy somewhere.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Saudi NH you're using an extremely black and white example to demonstrate your point, not to mention you're just making a strawman out of Indiafan. Thats not his POV at all. In fact your last few posts have consisted of such black and white examples.

Not at all. IndianFan has no problem in championing women’s rights when all the while he ignores the main responsibility of a woman. He has no issues in a mother neglecting her child, if he did, he'd post it, or at least concede to the fact both men and women have different responsibilties. This is the same guy who believes men are insecure because they respect women. Any comment? Thought so.

As for my POV being black and white, or to use a better word, polarised. We live in a polarised world whether you like it or not. Right from the electron and proton, to magnetic charges, to matter and anti-matter, to day and night, to yes and no, to right and wrong, to male and female, to ying and yang, and so on. BALANCE.

So give me one good reason why I should not think in Black and White? Just one.

Originally Posted by Saudi I've noticed this is quite a recurring themes in threads about women/freedom etc, by the way, this way of thinking in extremes, so its always burka vs bikini or conservative and modest vs decadent and promiscuous.

You can spend all day talking in shades of grey; just tell me if I am wrong in thinking a woman should look after her child first. Tell me if I am wrong in thinking both men and women have different responsibilities in society and in general?

Originally Posted by Saudi And as for my own opinion on this matter, I've always felt that any restrictions on what women can wear or what they can or can't do is unjustified.

What restrictions?

Unless a woman is tied to the kitchen sink I see no restriction other than intellgence - choice.

Originally Posted by Saudi There are obviously differences between the sexes and certain roles that suit women better but imposing certain obligations on them has never gone down well with me.

Good, because that’s what I am talking about - what are you talking about?

Once you understand that men and women have different responsibilites, you will understand why men and women are not the same, therefore shouldn't behave the same but rather should maintain balance.

I would like to know more about these so called obligations and restrictions applied to women.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat Not sure what an ad hominem argument means but regardless, my point is that when internet talk isn't matched by reality then there's a whiff of hypocrisy somewhere.

Bingo.

I would like to know whether Indianfan has any anecdotal evidence supporting his claims.

He's great at generalising an entire sex on the basis of stories spun in the media, but if the generalisation refers to India, then it's not acceptable according to him. Like you said, hypocrisy.

[Namak_Halaal]

BTW, reading about rape in this thread has made me realise one thing. Rape is akin to match fixing in certain respects; prevalent, but little or no evidence because the victims do not speak out.

[Saudi]

Not at all. IndianFan has no problem in championing women’s rights when all the while he ignores the main responsibility of a woman. He has no issues in a mother neglecting her child, if he did, he'd post it, or at least concede to the fact both men and women have different responsibilties. This is the same guy who believes men are insecure because they respect women. Any comment? Thought so.

Ok that insecurity thing is a bit suspect but he is hardly championing moral decadence as you seem to think. You are arguing a POV that you have made up.

As for my POV being black and white, or to use a better word, polarised. We live in a polarised world whether you like it or not. Right from the electron and proton, to magnetic charges, to matter and anti-matter, to day and night, to yes and no, to right and wrong, to male and female, to ying and yang, and so on. BALANCE. So give me one good reason why I should not think in Black and White? Just one.

This is odd thinking. The reason why you shouldn't think in Black and White, regarding people and societies is fairly obvious. Everybody has a different set of morals, even people with the same religious beliefs. We're not talking science here, bhai.

You can spend all day talking in shades of grey; just tell me if I am wrong in thinking a woman should look after her child first. Tell me if I am wrong in thinking both men and women have different responsibilities in society and in general?

Yes, she obviously should take care of her children but its not all that women are good for, i.e producing and rearing children. Which is again where you delve into black and white thinking. Women can be mothers, work at the same time, have a social life etc. Not sure what your point is here.

What restrictions? Unless a woman is tied to the kitchen sink I see no restriction other than intellgence - choice.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal to you a women should sell her body if she feels like it, should dress in scantily outfits if she feels like it, should hang around with men if she feels like it - all in the name of equal rights and freedom - then you worry about the state of society/world.

You seem to be proficient in listing a few. Worryingly, you feel that "hanging around with men" is somehow a decadent act, comparable with prostitution. And the implication, thinly veiled is of course, that women should be restricted in meeting with men.



This my last response for the day because I'm studying.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Saudi I've noticed this is quite a recurring themes in threads about women/freedom etc, by the way, this way of thinking in extremes, so its always burka vs bikini or conservative and modest vs decadent and promiscuous.

Yeah, this black/white, on/off, East/West thinking is bothersome. You might as well be talking to Americans!

I know plenty of ladies who have careers and are good mothers to their kids. And some stay-at-home mums who are not.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Saudi Ok that insecurity thing is a bit suspect but he is hardly championing moral decadence as you seem to think. You are arguing a POV that you have made up.

Wrong again. If anything Indianfan’s POV is made up. He is trying to convince us there’s an endemic case of women being beaten, tortured, mistreated, in every corner of the world. You seem to accept his generalisation.

Originally Posted by Saudi This is odd thinking. The reason why you shouldn't think in Black and White, regarding people and societies is fairly obvious. Everybody has a different set of morals, even people with the same religious beliefs. We're not talking science here, bhai.

Do you not see? Life is simple, we complicate our lives by thinking in shades of grey. So much so you are agreeing with my point on responsibilties, which is a Black and White POV.

Originally Posted by Saudi Yes, she obviously should take care of her children but its not all that women are good for, i.e producing and rearing children. Which is again where you delve into black and white thinking. Women can be mothers, work at the same time, have a social life etc. Not sure what your point is here.

Not sure what you are arguing here? Please read my posts carefully. I have not once said a woman should be chained to the sink. Which part of the word 'balance' did you not understand in my posts? Which part of women naturally better at caring jobs did you not understand?

Originally Posted by Saudi You seem to be proficient in listing a few. Worryingly, you feel that "hanging around with men" is somehow a decadent act, comparable with prostitution. And the implication, thinly veiled is of course, that women should be restricted in meeting with men.

Hanging around with men, my bad, I should have added drinking booze, and taking drugs but if you were following my posts you'd already know this.

I bet you wouldn’t want your sister or mother to hang out in such crowds. Would you? Be honest and do not lie.

[LongHorn]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal I bet you wouldn’t want your sister or mother to hang out in such crowds. Would you? Be honest and do not lie.

I wouldnt want my brother hanging out either.

I am not talking about you, but there are many Desis who feel its ok for a guy to do stuff which a girl would be criticised for, for every girl taking drugs and booze, there is a guy as well; both should be criticised.

Many Desi parents follow an attitude of "its ok for a guy to have fun as long as he is doing it outside and i am not seeing it", this attitude is wrong and hypocritical as Islam ordains the same exact moral standards and punishments for men that it does for women

[James]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal So give me one good reason why I should not think in Black and White? Just one.

Because a great many people in human history cleverer than anyone here have encouraged us not to.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by LongHorn I wouldnt want my brother hanging out either. I am not talking about you, but there are many Desis who feel its ok for a guy to do stuff which a girl would be criticised for, for every girl taking drugs and booze, there is a guy as well; both should be criticised. Many Desi parents follow an attitude of "its ok for a guy to have fun as long as he is doing it outside and i am not seeing it", this attitude is wrong and hypocritical as Islam ordains the same exact moral standards and punishments for men that it does for women

I am one of those desi blokes who never hanged out with gangs, boozers, or druggies, only decent people. I am sure there's wisdom in choosing your friends carefully.

I have been saying all along, if both men and women carry out their responsibilities, then there'd be no issues.

[James]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal I have been saying all along, if both men and women carry out their responsibilities, then there'd be no issues.

Society and human beings really are that simplistic after all, keeping everyone safe and giving everyone a fair deal.

Oh wait.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by James Because a great many people in human history cleverer than anyone here have encouraged us not to.

Thinking outside of the box is not the same as thinking in B&W.

I think as humans we have made our lives far more complicated than it is, when it all requires is discipline (B&W) to make life simpler.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by James Society and human beings really are that simplistic after all, keeping everyone safe and giving everyone a fair deal. Oh wait.

If society and humans are simple beings then why are most humans content with a middle answer to any situation?

Simple means men do what they need to do; women do what they need to do. Polarised responsibilities maintain the balance of society. It is when the balance is tilted do we see problems.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by Robert Yeah, this black/white, on/off, East/West thinking is bothersome. You might as well be talking to Americans! I know plenty of ladies who have careers and are good mothers to their kids. And some stay-at-home mums who are not.

It's not easy but if you live in the west it has to be done. It's not easy to have a decent standard of living on one salary. I'm sure lots of women would prefer to stay home and bring up their children but reality sometimes dictates differently.

[James]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Thinking outside of the box is not the same as thinking in B&W.

When you seeing but two of the colours that exist outside of the box, the space you are thinking in is still too small.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by James Society and human beings really are that simplistic after all, keeping everyone safe and giving everyone a fair deal.

Yes, let's forget all the philosophers and teachers of history and act like bees and ants instead. They have rigidly defined societal roles and they get on fine with each other!

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by James When you seeing but two of the colours that exist outside of the box, the space you are thinking in is still too small.

I am not seeing just two colours. I am saying any situation in society can be dealt by polarised answers.

Society wouldn’t be in a mess it is today if it wasn't hell bent on pleasing everyone by finding the middle ground.

As you know, you cannot please everyone.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Robert Yes, let's forget all the philosophers and teachers of history and act like bees and ants instead. They have rigidly defined societal roles and they get on fine with each other!

And just look at how successful bees and ants are. If you want to learn about unity and selfless acts, then look no further than ants.

I do not know, maybe it’s just me, but I always look for answers that can be quantified opposed to answers which have no end.

[James]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal If society and humans are simple beings then why are most humans content with a middle answer to any situation?

I was being sarcastic. Society and human beings are the opposite of simple. That's why you can't just say this gender does that and the other does that and our problems as a species disappear overnight. There are too many different backgrounds, experiences, opinions and world views that divide us, which go a long way beyond gender.

Race and religion, for example, are two huge social issues that have much more going on then the gender of those involved. If you think in black and white with regards to gender, it is not as big a leap to put races and religions into binary distinctions as well. And er, whoops. That's not a great idea is it.

Not everyone gets to live a comfortable middle class life in a Western country. It's very easy to take a structuralist and socially conservative approach to humanity in our situation. When really, as the luckiest and best educated people we should recognise the good points of liberal and progressive values. But if you think in black and white you never will, you will only see them as bad and morally corrupt - and in turn, the bitterness and divisiveness that exists between people will never go away.

There is a lot of nastiness in the world and yet many people are happier and live much longer now than has been possible for them in the past. Movement towards egalitarianism, which includes women being encouraged to pursue careers and build more prosperous homes (potentially), is but one of the reasons why.

You know, Islam has no problem with women leaving the home. It is merely concerned for their well being, and urges caution. Something to think about.

[James]

Originally Posted by Robert Yes, let's forget all the philosophers and teachers of history and act like bees and ants instead. They have rigidly defined societal roles and they get on fine with each other!

Sarcasm detectors must be broken today gentlemen.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by James I was being sarcastic. Society and human beings are the opposite of simple.

Ahh ok. Then surley there’s no harm in aiming for a simplistic life?

Originally Posted by James That's why you can't just say this gender does that and the other does that and our problems as a species disappear overnight.

Why not? It worked for 1000s of years, so why wouldn’t it work now?

Originally Posted by James Not everyone gets to live a comfortable middle class life in a Western country. It's very easy to take a structuralist and socially conservative approach to humanity in our situation. When really, as the luckiest and best educated people we should recognise the good points of liberal and progressive values. But if you think in black and white you never will, you will only see them as bad and morally corrupt.

I am a B&W thinker; I appreciate the values of progressive and liberal views, the question is what entails such views? I may think being liberal and progressive means giving women the right to vote, others on the other hand may believe legalising prostitution is indicative of being progressive and liberal.

Spiderman quote - with great power comes great responsibility.

Originally Posted by James There is a lot of nastiness in the world and yet many people are happier and live much longer now than has been possible for them in the past. Movement towards egalitarianism, which includes women being encouraged to pursue careers, is one of the reasons why. [b]You know, Islam has no problem with women leaving the home. It is merely concerned for their well being, and urges caution. Something to think about.[b]

Why do you think I do not believe a woman should be tied to the kitchen sink? Why do you think I am saying women should focus on jobs at which they are naturally good at? Why do you think I am saying men and women are equal in the eyes of creation but share different responsibilities?

What Islam also says is it is very important to maintain the balance. Not just in society, but in the universe, from physics, to chemistry, to biology – there is no reason why society should be excluded from this balance.

Islam does not encourage mothers who have given birth to spend dosh on a child minder while she is out developing her career either.

Islam is all about fairness, being fair, means being balanced.

[LongHorn]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Why do you think I do not believe a woman should be tied to the kitchen sink? Why do you think I am saying women should focus on jobs at which they are naturally good at? Why do you think I am saying men and women are equal in the eyes of creation but share different responsibilities? What Islam also says is it is very important to maintain the balance. Not just in society, but in the universe, from physics, to chemistry, to biology – there is no reason why society should be excluded from this balance. Islam does not encourage mothers who have given birth to spend dosh on a child minder while she is out developing her career either. Islam is all about fairness, being fair, means being balanced.

What is one mans balance is another mans liberalism or being conservative

You may think allowing women to be teachers and doctors is being balanced, someone more conservative from 18th century Bhopal will call you someone very liberal who is upsetting the balance of society by allowing women to go outside their homes. He will think his idea of women staying inside their homes always is being fair to them, as its the mans job to go outside home

[TAK]

Originally Posted by Express Pace How do you know it is less common if it isn't reported?

this may expalin a major reason for the lack of reportage of rape:

A Saudi woman who is beaten or raped by her husband and goes to the police must bring that husband along to formally "identify" her, she adds.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...n-7778800.html

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Originally Posted by TAK this probvbaly expains a major reason for the lack of reportage of rape: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...n-7778800.html

Is rape between husband and wife even recognised under Saudi law?

[TAK]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat Is rape between husband and wife even recognised under Saudi law?

no idea about saudi legal position

but i think there is a view that a man can have sex with his wife whenever he choses in some societies

if a wife doesn't want to or says no but the man persists that is rape in my personal view

i have mentioned a female married freind of mine earlier who tells me that her husband is of this mindset