Is Misbah a match winner? | Does it matter?

[BoomBoomCricket]

Originally Posted by James Oh my chuffing Lord. Pardon the language, but this is one of the most laughable statements I've ever seen on PakPassion. In the context of the great history of cricket, it's actually offensive. Talk about an effort to destroy your own credibility. The worst thing is that people will disagree with me. For the record, I don't dislike Misbah. I think he's decent. But as evidenced above, his fans can get a bit atrocious.

Agree with you mate.

The captain with the highest win/loss ratio in the history of test cricket after taking forward a broken team is nothing special.

[James]

Originally Posted by BoomBoomCricket Agree with you mate. The captain with the highest win/loss ratio in the history of test cricket after taking forward a broken team is nothing special.

Nasser Hussain?
Arjuna Ranatunga?
Clive Lloyd?
Michael Brearley?
Imran Khan?!
Allan Border?!!
Steve Waugh?!?!

Go to a few shops and libraries, get ahold of some good books about the sport, read them, and come back.

Until then, bye.

[BoomBoomCricket]

It's not like Misbah did not perform with the bat in the England series.

Misbah & Azhar Ali were the only two batsmen who passed more than 50 twice during the series.

That takes some doing for a series where ball had dominated bat.

[BoomBoomCricket]

Misbah's record as captain

Won - 33
Lost - 9
Drawn - 5

List of Accolades as a player in recent times

ICC cricketer of the year nominee 2011 (only Pakistan player)

ICC test cricketer of the year nominee 2011

‘The Cricketer’ Overseas test cricketer of the year 2011

‘The Cricketer’ Captain of Test XI of the year 2011

Rob Steen’s (ESPN journalist) 1 of the 5 men of the year for Cricket 2011

Scyld Berry (Wisden Editor) named him as the most important player of the year 2011

ESPN Cricinfo Batsmen of the Year 2011

ESPN Cricinfo Most Consistent Test Batsmen 2011

Voted by several media sources as the Pakistan Cricketer of the year 2011

Individual Series/Tours/Tournament Achievements of Misbah ul Haq as Pakistan Captain

1) Whitewashed the World Number 1 Ranked Opposition in a bilateral test series under heavily pressurised circumstances with the troublesome history of previous Pakistan V England contests

2) Led Pakistan to their first test series win against a higher ranked opposition in 5.5 years (2 WCs had passed since that last happened) by securing a test series win against Sri Lanka

3) Led Pakistan to their first test series win outside Asia in 7 years, against New Zealand

4) Led Pakistan to a highly respectable drawn series against the number 2 ranked South African side after the biggest hit sporting controversy Pakistan has seen to date

5) Led Pakistan to their 2nd Asia Cup title in 28 years

6) Led Pakistan to their first ODI series win by a 3 match margin against a top 8 team since 2003 & that in a year where the opposition were finalists of the Cricket World Cup

7) Won a test match in the West Indies to square the series comprehensively with an inexperienced squad with problems happening behind the scenes with the Waqar – Afridi dispute

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom What they haven't had for a long time is a mature captain, who has contributed well and has united the team under him.

No bro. What the Pakistan team hasn't had in a generation is a period of corruption free cricket, until now.

This is what is making the difference, not MAH.

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal This posts summates MAH. When there's a low score to chase, MAH prevails, but when chasing high totals, MAH flops.

Dude, when you consider that Pakistan's problem has been with chasing any score, let alone a high one, you should be glad that you have someone like Misbah. I have seen Pakistan collapse and lose while chasing low scores so many times. And since Misbah came in there have been lots of wins in chases. As for chasing high totals and winning which other Pak batsman does it consistantly?

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal No bro. What the Pakistan team hasn't had in a generation is a period of corruption free cricket, until now. This is what is making the difference, not MAH.

2 to 1, if you remove Misbah and bring someone like Afridi back, you will be back to square one with the same set of players

[Zamee]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal No bro. What the Pakistan team hasn't had in a generation is a period of corruption free cricket, until now. This is what is making the difference, not MAH.

But still you cannot discredit Misbah completely. He has played a vital role in Pak cricket's rise in the rankings.

[Poison]

Good captain but he's got a couple of really good players on his hands atm. Has done terrifically well to lift and galvanise this team back to recognition internationally, but comparing him with IK, Brearley, Waugh etc is a joke. You can tell BBC has no clue given he mentions Strauss in that same list.

And best batsman since Inzi? ......

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Zamee But still you cannot discredit Misbah completely. He has played a vital role in Pak cricket's rise in the rankings.

I am not discrediting MAH's efforts but it's a team effort. I am however challenging the notion MAH is not only the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years, but MAH is also the saviour of Pakistan cricket.

[James]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal No bro. What the Pakistan team hasn't had in a generation is a period of corruption free cricket, until now. This is what is making the difference, not MAH.

Wait for the fanboys to also credit Misbah with heralding the above, thus elevating him to the status of Steve Biko and Dr King.

[James]

Nasser Hussain turned England from the worst ranked team in test cricket to a decent team, winning back-to-back series in the subcontinent - 1-0 v Pakistan at fortress Karachi and 2-1 in Sri Lanka after going 1 behind. Put into context, we all know what a massive achievement that is for an England captain.

Misbah arguably hasn't even reached that level yet, let alone a Brearley, Imran, AB or Waugh level! Mental.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Indiafan Dude, when you consider that Pakistan's problem has been with chasing any score, let alone a high one, you should be glad that you have someone like Misbah. I have seen Pakistan collapse and lose while chasing low scores so many times. And since Misbah came in there have been lots of wins in chases. As for chasing high totals and winning which other Pak batsman does it consistantly?

The problem is not Misbah's style, it's the application of it.

Misbah's style is suited for Tests only.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by James Misbah arguably hasn't even reached that level yet, let alone a Brearley, Imran, AB or Waugh level! Mental.

There's no argument, Misbah is not even within sight of Khan, Waugh, Lloyd et al.

[LegCutter]

The problem is, on one hand you have players like Umar Akmal that just rollercoasters along his innings without any brakes; and then on the other end you have Misbah moving along at a snail's place; there is no middle-ground player who has the best of both worlds.

Anyway, Misbah has a vital role to play in our current team, but he's just a PART of the team, he is NOT the whole team; whereas Misbah plays slow and anchors along, the other batsmen are supposed to do their job of scoring runs as well, Misbah is not the only player in the team.

[BoomBoomCricket]

Misbah will end up with more test wins than any of the 29 Pakistan captains by the end of his career.

[BoomBoomCricket]

Misbah has scored 13 50+ scores in 18 innings being dismissed as captain. Recently had the 2nd highest average by a captain after Bradman. No questions about his performance as captain.

[BoomBoomCricket]

By Pakistani standards Misbah is a once in a generation captain

Look at

Results
Stability
Praise
Individual Performances
Intellect
Continuity
Education
Experience
Work Ethic
Talent Spotting
Philosophies
Legacy
Professionalism
Circumstances
Accolades
Statesmen Deamanour
Ability to handle adversity
Mutal Respect
Team Bonding
Cricketing Braininess

[adwords]

intelligent discussions abt MUH only happens here, to the avg. pakistani on the street his legacy will be ONLY remembered for WC loss to india and Mohali loss to india
common man dont really bothered about brown or white or blackwashes, its the match that counts - ghoda wahan nahin chala to ghoda kisi kaam ka nahin hai

[z-one-z]

It wasn't just Misbah who made Pakistan win, it was Hafeez aswell he made over 30...
Misbah did good captaincy and played well. He is looking suitable as a good captain of ODI to me...

[cricketfan86]

Originally Posted by Ironcat He is the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in the last 5 years. And he isn't going anywhere. Haters better look for another line of work.

biggest joke

[Zamee]

Originally Posted by adwords intelligent discussions abt MUH only happens here, to the avg. pakistani on the street his legacy will be ONLY remembered for WC loss to india and Mohali loss to india common man dont really bothered about brown or white or blackwashes, its the match that counts - ghoda wahan nahin chala to ghoda kisi kaam ka nahin hai

Semifinal me to sarey ghoday nahi chaley they. Sub bekar huey phir to.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by James Wait for the fanboys to also credit Misbah with heralding the above, thus elevating him to the status of Steve Biko and Dr King.

They already have, Ironcat's before/after Misbah table includes bans and fixing - as if Misbah had anything to do with exposing cheats.

[rhussain33]

Misbah is doing well in tests and ODIS...

ODIS I think needs a bit of a rejig... Its obvious Misbahs style of play can cause problems to the building of a good score or big chase at times.. what he should do is let all the others bat the overs and only come in at the end at 7, that way his 'superb leadership' can stay in place, without him effecting the innings negativley, but is still available to rescue a collapse if needs be...

1/Hafeez, 2/Jamshed, 3/Asad, 4/Umar, 5/Sarfraz, 6/Afridi 7/Misbah >> Tail

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Yes after all of the above, Trio-gate was the lowest point in Pakistan cricket - the bubble had burst. I cannot think of anything that would torpedo Pakistan cricket any further after Trio-gate.

Doesn't compute. After spot fixing, we could have had match fixing, sex scandal, drugs scandal, 0-2 saffer loss, and so on. We didn't - simply because a new captain was at helm and a new team under that captain was in place.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Meaning we did not play every Test team under MAH.

6 out of 8 = 75%. Will take that any day over the misery we were under the other captains previously.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal My enemy's enemy isn’t necessarily my enemy, meaning just because Aus and Ind were slaughtered by a team Pakistan slaughtered doesn’t mean Pakistan will beat Aus and Ind under MAH.

10 > 5
5 > 3
Therefore, 10 > 3

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal We beat ENG 3-0 in Tests thinking we’d repeat such dominance in ODIs. Cough cough what a disaster that turned out to be.

I don't think anyone with a sane mind would ever equate tests to JAMODIs. England lost 1-6 in ODIs after the 3-1 Ashes thumping they dished. Who cared?

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Subtle difference, the series was post Trio-gate vs England. Pakistan had so much to prove. Corruption was out and passion was in - it made the difference, not MAH's captaincy, or his performance.

Headache was gone, freshness was in, but it wasn't because of the drug I took but rather because "I wanted to prove that I could get better".

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Beating Minnows and Mediocre teams is the definition of superior captain skills? What about the captaincy skills in a 5-0 drubbing at the hands of a heavyweight?

Which 5-0 drubbing? That meaningless ODI series? The 6-months-on-most-cricket-experts-don't-even-remember ODI/T20 series?

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal With just 24 ODI matches under MAH it would be more interesting to see MAH W/L ratio after another 10 or 20 games, against heavyweights, preferably.

The burden is on you to prove otherwise. Speculation can be turned in any direction. The W/L going up to 4.0, for example.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal You are adding credence to the fact the spot fixing trial made the difference and not MAH, because before MAH and After MAH, Trio-gate was the difference between.

As if spot fixing made us lose 0-12 in Australia.

As if our years-long dismal test record prior was because of spot fixing.

As if the bans were given after Aussies series for spot fixing.

As if captains were running away fishing due to spot fixing.

As if captains were setting defensive fields due to spot fixing.

As if our batting was collapsing like a deck of cards due to spot fixing.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal You are doing an injustice to the other members of the team who have contributed way more than MAH to Pakistan's post Trio-gate success.

Nobody said that others did not contribute. Just like no one said that Apple was Steve Jobs' pet, or our 80s/90s team was all Imran. But, the reality is that our main contributors, e.g. Ajmal and Azhar, were there before AND after. What made them contribute better was a superior captain. The captain ALONG WITH his team deserve the credit.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Really? I thought the only common factor before/after was MAH's Tuk tuk.

Shrug. Tuk tuk wins test matches. There's plenty of IPL around these days to keep the T20 kids happy.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by James No it's not. In the England series, my mum could have captained Ajmal and Rehman in that form. And they won Pakistan the series, not Misbah.

My mum could have CEO'd Apple with iphones and ipads selling like no tomorrow.

There's a reason why we still see most mums at home these days.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by cricketfan86 biggest joke

I think you sentence has two words too many.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal They already have, Ironcat's before/after Misbah table includes bans and fixing - as if Misbah had anything to do with exposing cheats.

Let's start with the captains themselves.

On bans: vs

On fixing: vs

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by James Oh my chuffing Lord. Pardon the language, but this is one of the most laughable statements I've ever seen on PakPassion. In the context of the great history of cricket, it's actually offensive. Talk about an effort to destroy your own credibility. The worst thing is that people will disagree with me. For the record, I don't dislike Misbah. I think he's decent. But as evidenced above, his fans can get a bit atrocious.

I think you might want to spend three paragraphs on something other than "oh my God" to help us poor souls agree with you.

Misbah isn't in the same league as Imran, Waugh, Lloyd, Richards, etc. but frankly Nasser Hussain? Mike Atherton? Vaughan? Are those even competition?

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal There's no argument, Misbah is not even within sight of Khan, Waugh, Lloyd et al.

Agreed, but he's still the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in the last 5 years.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal No bro. What the Pakistan team hasn't had in a generation is a period of corruption free cricket, until now. This is what is making the difference, not MAH.

So, you are effectively saying that Pakistan now has corruption free cricket because of Misbah.

[Decipher]

Originally Posted by FusedBulb What you said is all auxiliary. Here is the actual truth. Misbah was a burnt out stubborn player in domestic cricket. He had a one off stint with Pakistan team during the India tour... AFTER and BEFORE that,, he was never good enough to make a solid spot in the Pakistan team (I think his struggle and effort span is about 15 years). I clearly remember his statement in 2010, "I will hang my boots at the end of the year".. This was the time when Misbah had lost any hope of returning back into Pak squad. All of a sudden, team was caught in a limbo when cheaters and fixers (including the captain) were caught red handed and were kicked out of the team. Mohsin Khan convinced Ijaz Butt that they needed a "SENIOR" to lead the team - WI tour I think it was. (Afridi and YK were not available for captaincy and MoYo was already sidelined by Ijaz Butt)...... and Misbah hit a jackpot when he received a call back in the team not as a reserve player but as an acting captain. He was lucky enough not to only get this break but was even more fortunate to have given a team that was totally cleaned from all the garbage (fixers/cheaters). It was a team of many new players who were all desperate to make a mark and get into the squad on permanent basis. Automatically everyone worked their rear end off to display their best performance. It was no doubt good for Pakistan and it put Misbah over the moon as well. To me personally, Misbah did a fair job in controlling the youngsters BUT any NORMAL or REGULAR senior would have perhaps done the same. So Misbah did NOT do any super duper, extra ordinary, out of the world, unthinkable, impossible, and unimaginable effort to have a series of victories under his belt (mostly against Minnows). Misbah just got it all set in the platter. It was a perfect "Key turn" operation. Had Salman Butt, Amir, Akmal and Asif were playing under Misbah his legacy would have been totally different I think. Then came the big series of England where England had traditionally a poor test record on Asian pitches... hardly any match winning performance in all 6 Test innings but his fans ignore Rehman, Ajmal, Umer Gul, Azhar Ali, Younus and most importantly the DRS, and conveniently gave the ENTIRE credit to Misbah. Came the ODI series .. Misbah fans opened up all guns against every other player BUT Misbah. And his T20 innings where the literally snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory was not the talk of the town (as was Mohali). A victory's credit must go ONLY to 'Misbah the captain' and the loss is always an individual player's fault ... that's the general mindset of his fans. And his die hard fans will give a victory's credit to Misbah for a game in which he may have not played due to injury or something To me personally, Misbah is a just a normal Pakistani standard player ... really NOTHING much special in him. He got a lucky break with a clean team, and he didn't have to do much to be in the lime light. But yes, I will understand the desperation of Misbah fans for one thing. Back home in Pakistan by default we do not understand the concept of good leadership so due to this genetic defect we are NOT being able to produce good leaders on consistent basis (both in cricket and in politics). Imagine we have produced ONE GOOD CRICKET CAPTAIN in GODDAMN 62 years .. (and still struggling to produce one for politics). At 36, Misbah came along as a very faint ray of hope as a captain who was slightly sustainable when compared to "pre-Misbah" chaos in the team leadership. We were changing captains 4 times a year to be in accord with 4 seasons of the year. It was surely a relieve to have someone with a little sense to prevail otherwise, Muhammad Yousuf in Australia was a disaster, Salman Butt came out to be a cheater, Malik was a politician, YK was a quitter, and Afridi never wanted it. Pakistani captain scenario was in a serious mess when you compared it to captain history of a country like Australia for example. One after the other they produce world class solid captains who are elite professionals in their class, Solid and stable as a rock thus there is never a need of introducing "a trial and error" based captain as it is in Pakistan. So Yes, Misbah was in fact a relief in that Chaos BUT after the cheaters were kicked out and new comers were ready to give their 100% (mostly against minnows) Misbah did not have a hard job to do. The other thing I DEFINITELY give credit to Misbah is Saeed Ajmal. Ajmal was living an anonymous life in domestic cricket. It was Misbah's "sifarish" that was approved by Iqbal Qasim (who apparently himself was a spinner in his day but now blind enough NOT to have recognized Saeed Ajmal for almost 10 years .. the irony). Saeed Ajaml really was a great find by Misbah. I think Misbah actually revived the tradition of Imran Khan and Sarfiraz Nawaz who found Inzimam, Waqar and Wasim Akram out of no where. Full credit to him for finding Ajmal.

I think a balanced post that talks about pros and cons of Misbah with a brutal honesty that some folks may not like. It represents both sides of the coin. Saeed Ajmal's point is also well high lighted. Surely, it's a personal opinion but I don't find a whole lot wrong with it.
Good post.

[James]

Originally Posted by Ironcat So, you are effectively saying that Pakistan now has corruption free cricket because of Misbah.

I heard that Misbah is also spearheading a promising movement for world peace, on the verge of discovering how to turn lead into gold thus solving the global financial crisis, and is in line to be the first man to walk on Mercury.

[truthseer]

Originally Posted by James I heard that Misbah is also spearheading a promising movement for world peace, on the verge of discovering how to turn lead into gold thus solving the global financial crisis, and is in line to be the first man to walk on Mercury.

That may all be true but it still doesn't discount his captaincy and his calm

[DeadlyVenom]

Originally Posted by James I heard that Misbah is also spearheading a promising movement for world peace, on the verge of discovering how to turn lead into gold thus solving the global financial crisis, and is in line to be the first man to walk on Mercury.

Im sure if he put his mind to it he could do all of the things you mentioned. With ease.

[iZeeshan]

Originally Posted by Ironcat So, you are effectively saying that Pakistan now has corruption free cricket because of Misbah.

You really think MISBAH is what's deterring people from not being corrupt rather than the fact that three of their teammates just got caught and jailed in a FOREIGN PRISON?

You are genius mate.

[iZeeshan]

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom Im sure if he put his mind to it he could do all of the things you mentioned. With ease.

But probably not trolling - that's just how Misbah fans are

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by iZeeshan You really think MISBAH is what's deterring people from not being corrupt rather than the fact that three of their teammates just got caught and jailed in a FOREIGN PRISON? You are genius mate.

Indeed, the first time we put a murderer in jail marked the end of murders the world over.

[waqar_ahmad]

If Misbah isnt all that, then why did our amazing batsmen collapse in the T20s?

[UmarMalik]

Those people who criticize Misbah honestly don't know a thing about cricket.. They come to PP, give their bias analysis after watching an inning or two..

Cricket is a mental game (play competitive cricket once in your life and you will know what Im talking about), and Misbah has always put a huge price on his wicket.. If Misbah scores 37 from 65 balls, then why doesn't someone else score 37 from 40 balls? He often fails in a big chase because he runs out of partners, continues to put value on his wicket and the next thing u know.. run rate has climbed up.. But, we shouldn't put the blame on Misbah for that.. On the other hand, I think he's best suited for #3 spot because there's no one in Pakistan team who puts as much value on wicket as Misbah..

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by UmarMalik Those people who criticize Misbah honestly don't know a thing about cricket.. They come to PP, give their bias analysis after watching an inning or two.. Cricket is a mental game (play competitive cricket once in your life and you will know what Im talking about), and Misbah has always put a huge price on his wicket.. If Misbah scores 37 from 65 balls, then why doesn't someone else score 37 from 40 balls? He often fails in a big chase because he runs out of partners, continues to put value on his wicket and the next thing u know.. run rate has climbed up.. But, we shouldn't put the blame on Misbah for that.. On the other hand, I think he's best suited for #3 spot because there's no one in Pakistan team who puts as much value on wicket as Misbah..

I'm afraid the haters would never let that happen.

[pakbl10]

So much hate on Misbah...makes no sense.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by pakbl10 So much hate on Misbah...makes no sense.

Its a PP tradition to bash our BEST players....

Right now and are our best players and they are being bashed and bashed.... with an average of 40 (ish) is also bashed and bashed

Players with averages in the teens or twenties are lauded as special.....

and are surviving but its only a matter of time methinks....



I reckon its something to do with Pakistanis being the 4th brainiest in the world...

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Doesn't compute. After spot fixing, we could have had match fixing, sex scandal, drugs scandal, 0-2 saffer loss, and so on. We didn't - simply because a new captain was at helm and a new team under that captain was in place.

We didn't because of Misbah, we did because the mentality of the team had changed after the trial; it’s not a physcological miracle you know. Sport is littered with examples of how a team progresses in the absence of corruption.

Originally Posted by Ironcat 10 > 5 5 > 3 Therefore, 10 > 3

You are using arbitrary values. Let’s use some real values.

Pakistan > England (3-0) (2012 Series)
England > Australia (2-1) (Last Ashes result)
Pakistan > Australia? In your dreams.

Originally Posted by Ironcat I don't think anyone with a sane mind would ever equate tests to JAMODIs. England lost 1-6 in ODIs after the 3-1 Ashes thumping they dished. Who cared?

I am not equating the two formats, I am citing ODIs because last time I checked Misbah was the captain of the ODI squad too.

Moreover, If ODI's do not matter then why are you citing Misbah's ODI captaincy record in his defence by claiming he is in the top of the list among all Pakistani captains?

Originally Posted by Ironcat Headache was gone, freshness was in, but it wasn't because of the drug I took but rather because "I wanted to prove that I could get better".

Corruption being the headache, sure.

Originally Posted by Ironcat Which 5-0 drubbing? That meaningless ODI series? The 6-months-on-most-cricket-experts-don't-even-remember ODI/T20 series?

Meaningless ODI series? If you are going to claim Misbah is the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in the past 5 years, then the question is whether ODI comes under 'Pakistan cricket'?

Well does it? Or do you prefer to ignore Misbah's shortcomings as captain (and player) of the ODI team?

Originally Posted by Ironcat The burden is on you to prove otherwise. Speculation can be turned in any direction. The W/L going up to 4.0, for example.

So now Misbah’s ODI W/L ratio counts?

To prove what otherwise? I didn't speculate, all I said was that I would like to see more matches played against heavyweights opposed to Minnows.

Originally Posted by Ironcat As if spot fixing made us lose 0-12 in Australia. As if our years-long dismal test record prior was because of spot fixing. As if the bans were given after Aussies series for spot fixing. As if captains were running away fishing due to spot fixing. As if captains were setting defensive fields due to spot fixing. As if our batting was collapsing like a deck of cards due to spot fixing.

The word of the day is 'corruption'. Spot Fixing, Match Fixing, Dirty politics are all linked to corruption and all played a role in Pakistan's pre 2010 performance. Recall the second Test vs AUS in 2010, where Pakistan had the Test in the bag, what happened? Did the planets line up once every 4000 years or something? The players who were banned were the players who spoke up against fixing during that series, in return they got banned. Dirty politics for you.

Please do not pretend corruption had no bearing or influence on Pakistan's performance pre 2010.

Originally Posted by Ironcat Nobody said that others did not contribute. Just like no one said that Apple was Steve Jobs' pet, or our 80s/90s team was all Imran. But, the reality is that our main contributors, e.g. Ajmal and Azhar, were there before AND after.

Wrong. Apple IS/WAS Steve Job's pet; he started the company from scratch, he built the company from scratch, he had the last say on Apple products meaning he set the vision for Apple - and Tim Cook cannot take any credit for Apple's success of late in the same way Misbah cannot take full credit for Pakistan's performance of late.

On the point of IK, he was Captain, Manager, Coach, and Selector of Pakistan cricket in the 80s/90s - I'd say Pakistan team was IK's team back then.

On the point of Ajmal and Azhar, while both were there before, the difference now is Pakistan is playing in a period of no corruption, today. Other changes include, change of PCB management and coach.

You say it's a team effort but claim Misbah is the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket (or is that just Test cricket?)

Originally Posted by Ironcat What made them contribute better was a superior captain. The captain ALONG WITH his team deserve the credit.

What made the players contribute was a state of mind.

Originally Posted by Ironcat Shrug. Tuk tuk wins test matches. There's plenty of IPL around these days to keep the T20 kids happy.

At least you accept Misbah is only worthy of the Test team.

Originally Posted by Ironcat My mum could have CEO'd Apple with iphones and ipads selling like no tomorrow. There's a reason why we still see most mums at home these days.

My Goldfish could have captained Pakistan after the Spot fixing trial.

Originally Posted by Ironcat Let's start with the captains themselves. On bans: vs On fixing: vs

Let’s look at the evidence you cite in defence of Misbah.

Before Misbah: 0-12 vs Aussies Lineup of bans Spot fixing Not even a single test series win for years Whitewashes to self galore With Misbah: 15-1 in tests 18-6 in ODIS Not further bans Not further fixing No test series loss, almost every test series win Whitewashes to the oppositions galore

Before Misbah – 0-12 Aussies – Hmmm, I thought we were talking about a 5 year period but you seem to have opted for a decade of results. After Misbah - BLANK - since Pakistan have not played AUS under Misbah there’s no comparison – Null and Void.

Before Misbah – line up of Bans and Spot Fixing. Yup, corruption was rife. After Misbah no bannings, no fixing. What was Misbah’s contribution in exposing the cheats? What was Misbah’s contribution in ridding Pakistan from corruption? Nothing. Null and void.

Thus far, no change has been attributed to Misbah.

Before Misbah - Not even a single test series win for years? After Misbah, no test series loss, almost every test series win – well I guess playing Minnows and Mediocre teams did help, then again it's amazing what a team can achieve when players put their mind to it - in the absence of corruption.

Before Misbah - Whitewashes to self-galore – where was Misbah’s Tuk Tuk? After Misbah Whitewashes to the oppositions galore? Are you not exaggeration a tiny bit here? 'Galore'? Please list the Whitewashes Pakistan have served in the 7 Test series played under Misbah.

Let’s look at the score lines post Misbah:

After Misbah - 15-1 in tests – Minnow Minnow on the wall who is the easiest of them all?

After Misbah - 18-6 in ODIS – Here you cite another ODI stat in Misbah’s defence despite claiming ODIs are meaningless.

Your comparison table would hold water if Trio-gate hadn't occured, but it did, and every difference you see between pre/post Misbah can be attributed to corruption free cricket.

I tell you what Ironcat, why don't you define 'Pakistan Cricket' then we can move on. Do you include Tests? ODIs? T20s? Or just the matches/formats where Misbah, oops, the team, has performed?

If ODIs are meaningless to you then change your claim to 'Misbah is the best thing to happen to Pakistan Test Cricket' in the past 5 years.

Originally Posted by Ironcat So, you are effectively saying that Pakistan now has corruption free cricket because of Misbah.

Err no. Plus how can I? Misbah had no role in exposing corrupt players. The reality is Misbah was a has-been, who was prepared to hang his boots but got lucky with the captaincy – he was the gateway of last resort - because if it wasn’t for Trio-gate Misbah would be collecting his pension right now.

[Lethalweapon]

steve waugh never won in asia. he is overrated imo.,

[Lethalweapon]

Originally Posted by Lethalweapon steve waugh NEVER won A SERIES in asia. he is overrated imo.,

WHIPPY , why is he so great as a captain ? for winning 15 tests in a row including lower ranked teams like WI and India AT home?

[James]

Originally Posted by Lethalweapon steve waugh never won in asia. he is overrated imo.,

Originally Posted by Lethalweapon WHIPPY , why is he so great as a captain ? for winning 15 tests in a row including lower ranked teams like WI and India AT home?

Can always rely on the Indian supporters for valuable input

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by UmarMalik Cricket is a mental game (play competitive cricket once in your life and you will know what Im talking about), and Misbah has always put a huge price on his wicket.

End of thread.

The mentality of Pakistan cricket changed because of Trio-gate not because of Misbah, who let’s face it, is frozen in Tuk Tuk mentality.

Those who claim Misbah is responsible for the change in mentality should stop watching sport period - you folks are an embarrassment to intelligence.

Go read up on players and teams from all walks of sports that have performed after corruption scandals were brought to light – you folks can start by reading up on Paolo Rossi – then tell me whether it was the Italian captain who helped Italy ascend to the top, or whether it was Rossi's desire to prove to his worth to his nation, his team, and the world - by playing corrupt free football.

[Bullet Drive]

Well, lets see how he chases this score today. Big score we are chasing for the first time in a long time. Lets see if he is a match winner. I hope so.

[James]

Fission Mailed prediction

[IM NOT YOU]

Originally Posted by Bullet Drive Well, lets see how he chases this score today. Big score we are chasing for the first time in a long time. Lets see if he is a match winner. I hope so.

today will show exactly what is wrong with this team...

great bowling attack that has consistently made our whole team appear good but the second we have to bat against a real total its game over



misbah and younis will fail again and we lose,..... dont bother watching


this match loser will choke again

[FusedBulb]

Originally Posted by Bullet Drive Well, lets see how he chases this score today. Big score we are chasing for the first time in a long time. Lets see if he is a match winner. I hope so.

na na na ....
Remember the golden rule.

"If Pakistan wins it's ALWAYS credit to Misbah only. If Pakistan loses it's NEVER Misbah's fault and we will always find individual players to blame."

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Originally Posted by Bullet Drive Well, lets see how he chases this score today. Big score we are chasing for the first time in a long time. Lets see if he is a match winner. I hope so.

I think thats the wrong approach to take...

The better question is

"Lets see if anyone stands up today to show their match winning ability"

Just because someone doesnt do it "today" doesnt mean they are not capable.

If someone shows it... it means they have ticked a nice box.

[Bullet Drive]

Misbah goes! He did play well today actually. Was just a good ball which got him.

[James]

Two innings Misbah review: poor tactics and substandard batting, and not for the first time in either case.

The fanboyz will continue to be happy with a 30 in a small run chase now and again

Fools.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by James Two innings Misbah review: poor tactics and substandard batting, and not for the first time in either case. The fanboyz will continue to be happy with a 30 in a small run chase now and again Fools.

But but but . . . . ODIs are meaningless, so it doesn't matter.

[James]

By the way you absolutely destroyed the other guy about 10 posts ago. Not much of a debate as far as I can see.

[truthseer]

Originally Posted by James Two innings Misbah review: poor tactics and substandard batting, and not for the first time in either case. The fanboyz will continue to be happy with a 30 in a small run chase now and again Fools.

That's what they said about Cook 2 years ago in tests. Look at what he's become.

[Afridirocks]

funny part is all these co called pakistan cricket fans who say ODI's are useless and its not real cricket but at the sametime if pakistan lose they are the first one who are crying and blaming the players for there performances lol.

If you think ODI is a joke cricket, why do you watch and care about what happens?

[James]

Originally Posted by truthseer That's what they said about Cook 2 years ago in tests. Look at what he's become.

Comparing what was then a 24 year old opener with what is now a middle order batsman pushing 40. Great going bro.

I don't get it, are you actually proposing some kind of argument here or just clinging on to a crappy straw man point?

[truthseer]

Originally Posted by James Comparing what was then a 24 year old opener with what is now a middle order batsman pushing 40. Great going bro.

If I remember correctly, Cook had the highest average in the team at that time as well. So does Misbah now! And calling Misbah slow, what's precious UA doing at 3 off 10?

[James]

Originally Posted by truthseer If I remember correctly, Cook had the highest average in the team at that time as well. So does Misbah now! And calling Misbah slow, what's precious UA doing at 3 off 10?

And this all relates to the OP 'How is Misbah not a match winner?'. Er not.

[truthseer]

Originally Posted by James And this all relates to the OP 'How is Misbah not a match winner?'. Er not.

Highest Average in team
Strike rate around 75
Performs more often that not
Has won matches on his own

What's left to argue?

[James]

Originally Posted by truthseer Highest Average in team Strike rate around 75 Performs more often that not Has won matches on his own What's left to argue?

Strike rate is ordinary.

Average doesn't always relate to match winning ability.

He has played 180 international games and hardly won any of them 'on his own', if any.

= another blinkered fanboy.

[Bilal7]

Misbah played well today, rotated the strike nicely.

Why is it that someone or the other has to eat up balls in a run-chase for Pakistan?

-Hafeez scored around 12 of 26
-Younis scored 4 of 13
-Umar scored 3 of 11

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by James Strike rate is ordinary. Average doesn't always relate to match winning ability. He has played 180 international games and hardly won any of them 'on his own', if any. = another blinkered fanboy.

He have enough players that win one game on their own and then fail five or six times. We needed a player that can contribute substantially, consistently and Misbah does that really well.

In spite of the above, he has won quite a few games on his own.

[iZeeshan]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal But but but . . . . ODIs are meaningless, so it doesn't matter.

Your posts in general give me confidence that I'm not crazy in criticizing Misbah. Sometimes the fans give me doubt.

Also, where was Misbah today? Match winner indeed.

[Bullet Drive]

Shahrukh?

[DeadlyVenom]

Didn't play well today, in fact only Azhar played well. Poor performance all round.

[talha3]

Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom Didn't play well today, in fact only Azhar played well. Poor performance all round.

Played OK until he got out. Better than everyone else bar Azhar. I guess that's how poor the batting performance was today.

[talha3]

Misbah 'was' a matchwinner, for a very brief period (The first year since the 2007 world T20). But now he's definitely not a matchwinner. That doesn't mean his contributions won't win you matches, it's just that he won't single-handedly win you a match. He's still on merit a deserved place in the side and until that changes, should remain captain.

[IM NOT YOU]

if fawad alam played like misbah did today he would get kicked out of the team...



but misbah is instead praised for a useless 27

[truthseer]

Originally Posted by James Strike rate is ordinary. Average doesn't always relate to match winning ability. He has played 180 international games and hardly won any of them 'on his own', if any. = another blinkered fanboy.

Strike rate of around 75 is ordinary. I guess Cook is an ordinary one day batsman

[James]

Originally Posted by truthseer Strike rate of around 75 is ordinary. I guess Cook is an ordinary one day batsman

Cook is a good ODI batsman with an SR of overall 80, not 75.

You know, as captain - which accounts for 22 of his 45 ODIs - Cook averages 54 with SR of 91. That is an epic record and he has played fantastic innings against Sri Lanka and Pakistan. He has been an acknowledged match-winner in this format in the last year or two.

But keep going, this is hilarious. You continue to defeat yourself in this debate.

[truthseer]

Originally Posted by James Cook is a good ODI batsman with an SR of overall 80, not 75. You know, as captain - which accounts for 22 of his 45 ODIs - Cook averages 54 with SR of 91. That is an epic record and he has played fantastic innings against Sri Lanka and Pakistan. He has been an acknowledged match-winner in this format in the last year or two. But keep going, this is hilarious. You continue to defeat yourself in this debate.

Yes, because 5 runs in 100 balls makes such a difference to one being quick or not.
As for his record as captain, that's inflated thanks to some easy bowling.

[James]

Originally Posted by truthseer Yes, because 5 runs in 100 balls makes such a difference to one being quick or not. As for his record as captain, that's inflated thanks to some easy bowling.

Easy bowling like Ajmal, Malinga, Gul, Rehman, Ashwin. Yep.

Higher SR is higher SR.

Just give it up, you whole (straw man) point has been a joke from the start.

[praveen]

Can it be said that most of the criticism directed towards Misbah is because he bottled the world cup matches against India , and had he somehow won it then,his haters would have forgiven him to a better extent now?

[James]

Originally Posted by praveen Can it be said that most of the criticism directed towards Misbah is because he bottled the world cup matches against India , and had he somehow won it then,his haters would have forgiven him to a better extent now?

Can it be said that if my Auntie had been born with...

[truthseer]

Originally Posted by James Easy bowling like Ajmal, Malinga, Gul, Rehman, Ashwin. Yep. Higher SR is higher SR. Just give it up, you whole (straw man) point has been a joke from the start.

Ashwin is definitely a quality bowler, the best spinner in the world, must be so hard to play him

[James]

Originally Posted by truthseer Ashwin is definitely a quality bowler, the best spinner in the world, must be so hard to play him

It seems that you are just trolling now. Ignoring the majority of my post to make a cheap point, because you know that you've lost the debate. Bye for now.