Is Misbah a match winner? | Does it matter?

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Mindset affects performance. I double dog dare you to deny it.

Mindset affects performance, and the leader is the biggest source of a winning mindset. Imran being an example. Jobs being an example. Corruption/fear are simply excuses for explaining world beating performance. You have completely run away from the challenge of quoting us examples of fear leading to lack of corruption which led to world beating performances.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal I'm not padding my post count at all, you are. As an example, at the beginning of this thread ODIs didn't matter, were meaningless, but now they do matter, are meaningful. Why the change of opinion?

Errr, did you even read any of the posts above?

ODIs don't matter much to me (except for the major tournaments) - but they do to you and even I busted your myth when I presented his ODI captaincy record. ODIs are a part of Pakistan cricket. Just as mp3 players are a part of Apple. Just as radio is a part of communications. Just as a dessert is a part of meal. Just as an ice cream parlor is a part of a mall. However, if you want to judge Apple, communications, meals, and malls based on these parts, you will begin to find the world a very lonely place.

I know ODIs are a part of Pakistan cricket, but they don't matter much to me other than major tournaments. Because they do to you, there is Misbah's W-L for you. Is it that hard to read?

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Moreover you are struggling to explain the cause behind changes in Pakistan cricket of late, this includes Misbah as captain. What was the reason? To improve our W/L ratio? Give me a break. Pakistan could've bolstered their stats by playing lightweights before Misbah too.

So, now, once again, you have run away from the existing arguments and brought in a new angle. Change in Misbah's T20 captaincy? Really? You sure you wanna go down this path?

In any case, I have posted my numbers above, but if you want any sympathy, provide your own evidence here. We can't do your arguing for you all day long.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by iZeeshan But if he's a match winner, how come he didn't take us to victory? And I'll give you the rest of the points because I know longer wish to argue with you about that. Take that how you will.

I don't expect a a matchwinning captain to take us to victory in every single game. If you are saying that I consider him a matchwinning batsman, then that's not correct.

[iZeeshan]

Originally Posted by Ironcat I don't expect a a matchwinning captain to take us to victory in every single game. If you are saying that I consider him a matchwinning batsman, then that's not correct.

Fair enough. I can take that. I'm done here.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat So, now, once again, you have run away from the existing arguments and brought in a new angle. Change in Misbah's T20 captaincy? Really? You sure you wanna go down this path?

T20? Who mentioned T20?

Originally Posted by Ironcat In any case, I have posted my numbers above, but if you want any sympathy, provide your own evidence here. We can't do your arguing for you all day long.

You are right, we cannot be arguing all day. So let's bury some of your arguments with respect to leadership.


Mandela was a leader who induced change.

Zuckerberg was a leader who induced change.

Walton was a leader who induced change.

Jobs was a leader who induced change.

Khan was a leader who induced change.

Misbah on the other hand is the consequence of change.

Has the penny dropped yet?

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal T20? Who mentioned T20? You are right, we cannot be arguing all day. So let's bury some of your arguments with respect to leadership. Mandela was a leader who induced change. Zuckerberg was a leader who induced change. Walton was a leader who induced change. Jobs was a leader who induced change. Khan was a leader who induced change. Misbah on the other hand is the consequence of change. Has the penny dropped yet?

Because somehow - magically - Azhar and Ajmal stopped being "corrupt", Butt started managing PCB like a champion, and Waqar started dishing out killer batting advice. All in September of 2010.

I'll be sure to send this script over to the next Sherlock Holmes producer.

[Savak]

Its disgraceful to see people wasting their time on Misbah.

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[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Because somehow - magically - Azhar and Ajmal stopped being "corrupt", Butt started managing PCB like a champion, and Waqar started dishing out killer batting advice. All in September of 2010. I'll be sure to send this script over to the next Sherlock Holmes producer.

OMG.

All in Sept 2010? Who has claimed this? If you take a step back for a moment you'll realise Trio-gate was the trigger event to change, not Misbah. TRIGGER event.

Plus no one has claimed Azhar and Ajmal were corrupt, quit putting words in my mouth. I have repeatedly stated players lacklustre performance pre Misbah was down to mindset, not magic.

By the way, Sherlock solves mysteries, Trio-gate and the ramifications are no mystery.

[James]

It takes a particularly dim individual to suggest that Misbah is responsible for Pak cricket's 'cleaning up' of its corruption.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal OMG. All in Sept 2010? Who has claimed this? If you take a step back for a moment you'll realise Trio-gate was the trigger event to change, not Misbah. TRIGGER event. Plus no one has claimed Azhar and Ajmal were corrupt, quit putting words in my mouth. I have repeatedly stated players lacklustre performance pre Misbah was down to mindset, not magic. By the way, Sherlock solves mysteries, Trio-gate and the ramifications are no mystery.

Trigger event for a new captain, yes.

That new captain could have been another Butt (fixer), Yousuf ("not really a captain"), Younis (gone fishing), Malik (cough), Afridi ("I retire in the middle of a test match"), and you name it.

That new captain could have taken us ANYWHERE. Up, down, left, right.

So, then, why keep running away from a simple argument? Prove to us that this so-called spot fixing event (whose punishments were actually not handed out until MUCH later) turned us around on its own.

Mindset change? Mindset change because of fear?

Let’s address the FEAR excuse. Give us a few examples where a group of people became world beaters out of FEAR. Those under Russian communism? Those under Egyptian Mubarak? Those under Kim Jong? OK, maybe give us a few examples where FEAR rooted out a problem such as corruption. Fear of being jailed rooted out drunk driving? Fear of execution rooted out murder? Fear of penalties rooted out fouls? Fear of tax prosecution rooted out tax evasion? Fear of jail AND prosecution rooted out political corruption? Next, you asked me to give a few examples where a group of people became world beaters due to LEADERSHIP. Apple became the most valued company in the world under Steve Jobs. Facebook became the largest social network under Zuckerburg. Pakistan became the world champions under Imran. Walmart became the largest retailer under Sam Walton. SA became the beacon of peace under Mandela. Want more?

As for Holmes, yes, he will be splitting his hairs on what else to attribute this turnaround to without ANY evidence of a "corruption scandal" making a team/group/company world beater ANYWHERE in the world EVER.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Ironcat I randomly multi-quoted last bunch of this poster's posts. Here are my observations: 1. Every 15 or so posts in a thread, he likes to say goodbye or "can't read it" or "I'm outta here" at least 5 times. 2. When someone craters his argument and he has no reply, he starts to respond in third person. 3. The next morning, he returns to repeat this sequence. I am afraid he has me at a disadvantage.

I reiterate.

[jy1970us]

he is mostly a match winner for the opposite team.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Trigger event for a new captain, yes.

There it is. Now you concede Misbah did not incude any change. There's nothing more to debate here.

Let's forget about the changes in Coach, Management, and Responsibilites, all of which were the result of the trigger event.

Originally Posted by Ironcat That new captain could have been another Butt (fixer), Yousuf ("not really a captain"), Younis (gone fishing), Malik (cough), Afridi ("I retire in the middle of a test match"), and you name it. That new captain could have taken us ANYWHERE. Up, down, left, right. So, then, why keep running away from a simple argument? Prove to us that this so-called spot fixing event (whose punishments were actually not handed out until MUCH later) turned us around on its own. Mindset change? Mindset change because of fear? As for Holmes, yes, he will be splitting his hairs on what else to attribute this turnaround to without ANY evidence of a "corruption scandal" making a team/group/company world beater ANYWHERE in the world EVER.

Speculation.

Simple question. Did Trio-gate affect the mindset of the Pakistan camp? Yes or no?

Originally Posted by Ironcat Let’s address the FEAR excuse. Give us a few examples where a group of people became world beaters out of FEAR. Those under Russian communism? Those under Egyptian Mubarak? Those under Kim Jong? OK, maybe give us a few examples where FEAR rooted out a problem such as corruption. Fear of being jailed rooted out drunk driving? Fear of execution rooted out murder? Fear of penalties rooted out fouls? Fear of tax prosecution rooted out tax evasion? Fear of jail AND prosecution rooted out political corruption? Next, you asked me to give a few examples where a group of people became world beaters due to LEADERSHIP. Apple became the most valued company in the world under Steve Jobs. Facebook became the largest social network under Zuckerburg. Pakistan became the world champions under Imran. Walmart became the largest retailer under Sam Walton. SA became the beacon of peace under Mandela. Want

Your point (and examples) on leaders was blown to smithereens. Misbah is the consequence of change, he did not induce change like the leaders you mention.

Compare Apples with Apples, not Apples with Bananas.

[violet_may]

For those saying my pet cat could have led Pakistan to a 3-0 victory due to the form Ajmal and Rehman were in:

“I credit my captain (Misbah ul Haq) for the success myself or Abdur Rehman (18 wickets) got in the series. He told us from the start that there would be spin pitches and he had confidence we could deliver,” Ajmal said. “It felt good bowling in tandem with Rehman. There was less pressure on me. Our captain had planned out everything in detail like which bowler will bowl to which batsmen and so on and it worked beautifully.” Ajmal said the clean sweep was a big moment for a team keen to make people forget the 2010 spot-fixing affair which rocked Pakistan cricket. “I guess that scandal really hurt our pride and since then we have been trying to get better and better. Beating England 3-0 was like winning the World Cup for us,” Ajmal said.

'No one can spot my mystery ball, says Ajmal' (The Tribune)

Individual performance is of course important, but it is quite demeaning to say the captain has no hand in a victory (as well as a loss) when it was quite obvious when we were all watching the matches. One only needs to take a stroll through the commentary threads.

Although flawed, Misbah has certainly been an asset for Pakistan and he has been one of the better leaders in recent times.

[violet_may]

Some great posts by Ironcat and Namak_Halal as well. Enjoyed reading it.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by violet_may For those saying my pet cat could have led Pakistan to a 3-0 victory due to the form Ajmal and Rehman were in: 'No one can spot my mystery ball, says Ajmal' (The Tribune) Individual performance is of course important, but it is quite demeaning to say the captain has no hand in a victory (as well as a loss) when it was quite obvious when we were all watching the matches. One only needs to take a stroll through the commentary threads. Although flawed, Misbah has certainly been an asset for Pakistan and he has been one of the better leaders in recent times.

No one has claimed a captain has no hand, the discussion is whether Misbah is the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years. Clearly not.

[Savak]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal No one has claimed a captain has no hand, the discussion is whether Misbah is the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years. Clearly not.

Absolutely not


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[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal There it is. Now you concede Misbah did not incude any change. There's nothing more to debate here. Let's forget about the changes in Coach, Management, and Responsibilites, all of which were the result of the trigger event.

Trigger? A cop-out of gigantic proportions. Facebook's success is not Zuckerburg's but his girlfriend's because she broke up with him the night before.

Meanwhile, everyone, Namak_Halaal is yet to respond to this simple bust-up:

Originally Posted by Ironcat Corruption argument for Ajmal and Azhar doesn't work. Are you saying Ajmal and Azhar were corrupted before Misbah? Change of PCB management argument doesn't work. I Butt was there before and after your spot fixing mega-event. Coach argument doesn't work. We had a cocktails of coaches through this period: Waqar, MHK, Whatmore. Waqar was there before and after your spot fixing mega-event.

So, explain to us which management and coaching changes took place before and after Sep 2010 that made the difference.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Simple question. Did Trio-gate affect the mindset of the Pakistan camp? Yes or no?

Nothing remotely close to making them world beaters. The real mindset change was effected by the new captain. I challenged you to give me ANY other example of a corruption scandal changing the mindset of a team that made them world beaters shortly after. (I gave you several examples of LEADERS making it happen.)

Radio silence.

I can see another cop-out.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Your point (and examples) on leaders was blown to smithereens. Misbah is the consequence of change, he did not induce change like the leaders you mention.

Here is the typical cop-out of your brethren in this thread.

"Believe me because I say so."
Evidence?
"I don't have any."
Well, here is the evidence to the contrary.
"Can we change the topic?"

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal No one has claimed a captain has no hand, the discussion is whether Misbah is the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years. Clearly not.

Originally Posted by Savak Absolutely not

Let's see who the contenders are.

Per Namak_Halaal, Asif and Amir? The most disgraced cricketers in the world?

Ajmal? Before Misbah's captaincy, we lost 6 out of the 8 matches he played. Under Misbah, we won 8 out of the 12 he played in. The captain clearly made him the matchwinner that he wasn't before.

Azhar? Same story. Major change before/after Misbah's captaincy.

Who else?

[iZeeshan]

Ironcat - the leaders you are bringing up incited the change themselves! Jobs STARTED Apple and came up with his own ideas. Zuckerberg STARTED Facebook as his own idea.

Misbah did not start Pakistan cricket, was not the one who got rid of the corruption, nor did he come up with anything innovative to lead us to winning. Misbah got handed a team after a major scandal and managed it well, but does not mean he's the best thing to happen to Pakistani cricket in the last five years -and even if he is, what is it being compared to?

Not to mention, this thread is about him being a MATCHWINNER. Where were his brilliant captaincy skills when playing against England?

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Trigger? A cop-out of gigantic proportions.

Yes trigger - trio-gate. You did agree. You accepted the trigger was the precursor to change in captaincy. So why ignore the trigger with respect to mindset given you also agree mindset affects performance?

Also if you are unaware of team mgt changes post sept 2010 then I suggest you read up, clearly you will not acknowledge such changes as it would falsify your entire argument.

One thing is for certain, Misbah did not change a thing, how can he? He doesn't even change his Tuk Tuk style.

Originally Posted by Ironcat Nothing remotely close to making them world beaters. The real mindset change was effected by the new captain. I challenged you to give me ANY other example of a corruption scandal changing the mindset of a team that made them world beaters shortly after. (I gave you several examples of LEADERS making it happen.)

Beta, I did provide an example, Italy, 82, with Paolo Rossi. Were you not paying attention?

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Let's see who the contenders are. Per Namak_Halaal, Asif and Amir? The most disgraced cricketers in the world? Ajmal? Before Misbah's captaincy, we lost 6 out of the 8 matches he played. Under Misbah, we won 8 out of the 12 he played in. The captain clearly made him the matchwinner that he wasn't before. Azhar? Same story. Major change before/after Misbah's captaincy. Who else?

Amazing, you are ignoring THE major change, a crack down on corruption. Remember, no crack down, no Misbah as captain.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by iZeeshan Ironcat - the leaders you are bringing up incited the change themselves! Jobs STARTED Apple and came up with his own ideas. Zuckerberg STARTED Facebook as his own idea.

Jobs started Apple, left in the mid 80s and returned in mid 90s when Apple was struggling. He juvenated Apple from a struggling company to the world beater it is today.

No one remembers Jobs for "starting Apple". They remember him for taking it from an almost bankrupt position to a $500BN value company today.

Originally Posted by iZeeshan Misbah did not start Pakistan cricket, was not the one who got rid of the corruption, nor did he come up with anything innovative to lead us to winning. Misbah got handed a team after a major scandal and managed it well, but does not mean he's the best thing to happen to Pakistani cricket in the last five years -and even if he is, what is it being compared to?

I never said he got rid of corruption. To me, corruption is irrelevant. It was always there, but never strong enough in the last 5 years to influence outcomes of series and matches. Our cheats were hounded for no-balls - not for fixing matches.

There is only one piece of factual evidence here.

Misbah's captaincy record
And his batting numbers as a captain

As for contenders, see the post above.

Originally Posted by iZeeshan Not to mention, this thread is about him being a MATCHWINNER. Where were his brilliant captaincy skills when playing against England?

He blanked them 3-0.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Yes trigger - trio-gate. You did agree. You accepted the trigger was the precursor to change in captaincy. So why ignore the trigger with respect to mindset given you also agree mindset affects performance?

Here is another "trigger".

Misbah wasn't selected for the England tour, which allowed Butt to assume captaincy by default upon Afridi's retirement, which created trio-gate, which installed Misbah back as a captain.

So, Misbah is the one and the only trigger. How's that?

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Also if you are unaware of team mgt changes post sept 2010 then I suggest you read up, clearly you will not acknowledge such changes as it would falsify your entire argument.

Another copout. This is not even a contest anymore.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Beta, I did provide an example, Italy, 82, with Paolo Rossi. Were you not paying attention?

And here was the swift rebuttal:

Originally Posted by Ironcat Here is a list of all professional convicted athletes and their lives after conviction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cted_of_crimes Out of the 250+, perhaps 1 or 2 ever made it back into their respective games at all (let alone were successful). A trial and/or a punishment couldn't even turn around 99% of the subjects themselves, and some jokers want us to believe that someone else's trial and/or punishment will propel you to become world beaters. That's one dinosaur of a leap of faith.

[iZeeshan]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Jobs started Apple, left in the mid 80s and returned in mid 90s when Apple was struggling. He juvenated Apple from a struggling company to the world beater it is today. No one remembers Jobs for "starting Apple". They remember him for taking it from an almost bankrupt position to a $500BN value company today. I never said he got rid of corruption. To me, corruption is irrelevant. It was always there, but never strong enough in the last 5 years to influence outcomes of series and matches. Our cheats were hounded for no-balls - not for fixing matches. There is only one piece of factual evidence here. Misbah's captaincy record And his batting numbers as a captain As for contenders, see the post above. He blanked them 3-0.

I'm sorry but most everyday people I talk to recognize Jobs for starting Apple. Regardless, how can you even relate business and cricket. There's two totally different sectors. You're not even comparing two different sports!

Right and because Misbah never got rid of corruption then what is he being credited for as the best thing to happen? His numerous wins against minnows and mediocre teams?

His batting numbers as captain are meaningless because I already agreed he's been a decent batsman.

And I don't even want to hear about tests because I already agreed with you that he's done a great job there and should be commended on his effort.

I was asking about ODIs and you knew that. You tried to twist the argument competely in your favor.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by iZeeshan I'm sorry but most everyday people I talk to recognize Jobs for starting Apple. Regardless, how can you even relate business and cricket. There's two totally different sectors. You're not even comparing two different sports! Right and because Misbah never got rid of corruption then what is he being credited for as the best thing to happen? His numerous wins against minnows and mediocre teams? His batting numbers as captain are meaningless because I already agreed he's been a decent batsman. And I don't even want to hear about tests because I already agreed with you that he's done a great job there and should be commended on his effort. I was asking about ODIs and you knew that. You tried to twist the argument competely in your favor.

I can't control who you speak with, but Apple was a nobody in the 90s. He might as well have gone and started a new computer company. He went to work at Pixar after Apple, and that's where he made most of his fortune.

And, yawn about the minnows argument. The argument has been thrashed at least 5 times in this very thread. Scroll up and read it. Respond to it directly.

As for England ODIs, yes, he did a poor job, but (A) these are ODIs, (B) nobody expects you to win all the times (complacency can set in), and (C) his ODI captaincy record is still far superior to any other captain in our history.

England lost 1-6 in ODIs after their Ashes win. Hardly anyone brings that up these days.

So, shrug.

His test captaincy...check
His ODI captaincy...check.
His batting averages...check.
Contribution to all other intangibles (gelling the team, developing the youngsters, etc.)...check.

[iZeeshan]

Originally Posted by Ironcat I can't control who you speak with, but Apple was a nobody in the 90s. He might as well have gone and started a new computer company. He went to work at Pixar after Apple, and that's where he made most of his fortune. And, yawn about the minnows argument. The argument has been thrashed at least 5 times in this very thread. Scroll up and read it. Respond to it directly. As for England ODIs, yes, he did a poor job, but (A) these are ODIs, (B) nobody expects you to win all the times (complacency can set in), and (C) his ODI captaincy record is still far superior to any other captain in our history. England lost 1-6 in ODIs after their Ashes win. Hardly anyone brings that up these days. So, shrug. His test captaincy...check His ODI captaincy...check. His batting averages...check. Contribution to all other intangibles (gelling the team, developing the youngsters, etc.)...check.

I don't remember being responded to directly about the minnows, but his record isn't really as great as you make it out to be. Yes it was just 3 minnows, but the other teams (NZ/SL) weren't that great anyway. But yes, that was a decent accomplishment but NOT good enough to label him as the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years (what are we comparing it to anyway).

And that is an awful argument Ironcat - that nobody cares about ODIs? Complaency can set in, but it can't set in for 4 ODI's straight. Even being able to win ONE would tell us that wow, okay, so Misbah has some thinking ability. But he couldn't recover from a single loss - what does that tell you about his ODI captaincy?

Sorry sir, but his "ODI captaincy" does not check out for me, and that doesn't make him a matchwinner because he couldn't win us the important series.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by iZeeshan I don't remember being responded to directly about the minnows, but his record isn't really as great as you make it out to be. Yes it was just 3 minnows, but the other teams (NZ/SL) weren't that great anyway. But yes, that was a decent accomplishment but NOT good enough to label him as the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years (what are we comparing it to anyway). And that is an awful argument Ironcat - that nobody cares about ODIs? Complaency can set in, but it can't set in for 4 ODI's straight. Even being able to win ONE would tell us that wow, okay, so Misbah has some thinking ability. But he couldn't recover from a single loss - what does that tell you about his ODI captaincy? Sorry sir, but his "ODI captaincy" does not check out for me, and that doesn't make him a matchwinner because he couldn't win us the important series.

Minnows? Post # 172, argument # 3. It's all there.

As for losing 4 ODIs straight, take a look at this.

Under Imran, in 1984, we lost 4 ODIs straight, starting from:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65358.html

After the 4th ODI, we lost a 5th, which was the first ODI of the series that followed. So, 5 ODIs in a row.

Under Imran again, we lost 11 (count'em) ODIs in a row, starting from this match:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65113.html

In this 0-11 run, we lost a full series 0-5 against WI, the number 1 ranked team at that time.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Here is another "trigger". Misbah wasn't selected for the England tour, which allowed Butt to assume captaincy by default upon Afridi's retirement, which created trio-gate, which installed Misbah back as a captain.

Works for me, still means Misbah was captain because of Trio-gate.

Originally Posted by Ironcat Another copout. This is not even a contest anymore.

I think you are pretending to be stupid.

So let's see, a change after Sept 2010, hmmmm - Oct 2011 Zaka Ashraf.

Originally Posted by Ironcat And here was the swift rebuttal:

Rebuttal? Rebuttal is inferior to falsification. Your rebuttel does't challenge my example, neither does it falsify it, your 'rebuttal' is simply saying my example sits in the 1% where performance was the direct result of a corruption scandal being exposed.

Accept my example and move on.

[Ironcat]

Well, Namak_Halaal, even the straws are now asking you to let go of them.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal So let's see, a change after Sept 2010, hmmmm - Oct 2011 Zaka Ashraf.

And what happened in those 5 series between "trio-gate" and start of Zaka's tenure?

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Rebuttal? Rebuttal is inferior to falsification. Your rebuttel does't challenge my example, it's simply saying my example sits in the 1% where performance was the direct result of a corruption scandal.

Read it again. There was no "performance" - just a return. I'd much rather believe the 99% than the rare occurrences.

In any case, if you have nothing more to add here, then maybe we can take it to a different thread.

[FusedBulb]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Under Imran, in 1984, we lost 4 ODIs straight, starting from: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65358.html After the 4th ODI, we lost a 5th, which was the first ODI of the series that followed. So, 5 ODIs in a row. Under Imran again, we lost 11 (count'em) ODIs in a row, starting from this match: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65113.html In this 0-11 run, we lost a full series 0-5 against WI, the number 1 ranked team at that time.

Did you just put Misbah in the same breadth with Imran Khan ???????

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by FusedBulb Did you just put Misbah in the same breadth with Imran Khan ???????

No. I didn't. It was a point about the irrelevance of 0-4 ODI losses. But somehow I did predict someone would make this connection next.

[Bilal7]

How can people claim that Misbah brought nothing new to the team?

How many posters here are involved in team meetings?

Don't people blame Misbah for instilling a defensive mindset in the team? Maybe that defensive mindset works great in Test cricket and is acceptable in the limited overs format.

I agree with Ironcat that he is the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket, he needs to win one big oversees series to be considered on par with Imran as test captain though.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat And what happened in those 5 series between "trio-gate" and start of Zaka's tenure?

Irrelevant. You wanted an example of change post Sep 2010 and got one.

[iZeeshan]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Minnows? Post # 172, argument # 3. It's all there. As for losing 4 ODIs straight, take a look at this. Under Imran, in 1984, we lost 4 ODIs straight, starting from: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65358.html After the 4th ODI, we lost a 5th, which was the first ODI of the series that followed. So, 5 ODIs in a row. Under Imran again, we lost 11 (count'em) ODIs in a row, starting from this match: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65113.html In this 0-11 run, we lost a full series 0-5 against WI, the number 1 ranked team at that time.

lol, you may think this is a legitimate argument, but any sane person can see how it's not.

instead of answering "what happened to Misbah's matchwinning captaincy 4 ODIs in a row" you give me some 20 year old stats that have no meaning to me as I have NO idea what kind of team was playing or what the conditions were at that point.

Also, England are ranked like, 6th.

Thanks. Bye (actually, you'll probably say something ridiculous again and I'll be back)

P.S. Just a note, I agree with a lot of what you said. Both you and N_H have made some excellent points. I just refuse to agree with ludicrous arguments that you try to pass on as legitimate.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 How can people claim that Misbah brought nothing new to the team? How many posters here are involved in team meetings? Don't people blame Misbah for instilling a defensive mindset in the team? Maybe that defensive mindset works great in Test cricket and is acceptable in the limited overs format. I agree with Ironcat that he is the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket, he needs to win one big oversees series to be considered on par with Imran as test captain though.

Kindly enlighten us PPers what Misbah has brought new to the team.

What we do know is Misbah brought something old to the team, Shoaib Malik.

Also the common Pakistani doesn't care about Test results but WC/Tournament wins matter. If the Pakistani public doesn't support Misbah as captain then Misbah can never be legend.

IK won us the 1992 WC, the perfect ending to who was already a legend, Misbah on the hand has cost us two WCs in his short career playing for Pakistan.

Misbah is close to retirement, he will be lucky to captain Pakistan in the 2015 WC, PCB are already grooming a new captain.

Misbah will never be 1% of Imran Khan.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by iZeeshan instead of answering "what happened to Misbah's matchwinning captaincy 4 ODIs in a row" you give me some 20 year old stats that have no meaning to me as I have NO idea what kind of team was playing or what the conditions were at that point. Also, England are ranked like, 6th.

I didn't say WI were ranked #1 in ODIs. (In fact, India won the '83 world cup.) Your question was about 0-4.

More recent examples? Say, under Inzamam?

We lost 4 in a row starting from this match:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...tch/64859.html

And then again starting in this match:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...tch/65666.html

And then yet again starting in this match:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ch/250671.html

Point is, every captain can go through a 0-4 ODI result. Just like every great batsman can get out cheaply in 4 innings in a row. What matter is the overall track record.

I think you value ODIs much more than I do, which may be why you don't agree with "Misbah is the best thing to happen to our cricket in the last 5 years." You probably have your own choice for this "award", which if you want to share, we can discuss in more detail here.

At the end of the day, it's simply our personal opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Kindly enlighten us PPers what Misbah has brought new to the team.

9-1 in tests
18-7 in ODIs

[iZeeshan]

Originally Posted by Ironcat I didn't say WI were ranked #1 in ODIs. (In fact, India won the '83 world cup.) Your question was about 0-4. More recent examples? Say, under Inzamam? We lost 4 in a row starting from this match: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...tch/64859.html And then again starting in this match: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...tch/65666.html And then yet again starting in this match: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ch/250671.html Point is, every captain can go through a 0-4 ODI result. Just like every great batsman can get out cheaply in 4 innings in a row. What matter is the overall track record. I think you value ODIs much more than I do, which may be why you don't agree with "Misbah is the best thing to happen to our cricket in the last 5 years." You probably have your own choice for this "award", which if you want to share, we can discuss in more detail here. At the end of the day, it's simply our personal opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sure.

I mean I'm glad to give Misbah that award only because he has absolutely no competition. What else has happened in the last 5 years that can be attributed to any one single person?

Though I would say the spot fixing trial, funnily enough, is the best thing to happen to Pakistan. Getting rid of corruption, however much it is, is much more valued in my opinion.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat 9-1 in tests 18-7 in ODIs

Firstly the common man doesn't care about a series score line, but does remember how Misbah flopped royally in 2 WCs.

Secondly the scoreline doesn't reflect the quality and consistency of Pakistan's opponents. This does matter. Playing minnows and medicore will not test Pakistan (or Misbah's captaincy) to the limits - playing heavyweights will.

Last but not least - mindset of the players had changed thanks to the corupption scandal. Players dare not think about corruption at the moment because of fear of being punished, fear of bringing shame to the nation, and fear of being made an example of by the nation and the media.

This is precisely what Pakistan needed, a bit of disipline in the squad. Our players were all over the place pre Tri-gate thinking they could get away with corruption forever, but now they are in a straight line.

This leaves players one option - to play for Pakistan and not for corrupt money.

For a generation the mindset of the team was united, thus our performance.

PS: Misbah has played squat role in the transformation of Pakistan cricket's mindset. Squat.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Point is, every captain can go through a 0-4 ODI result. Just like every great batsman can get out cheaply in 4 innings in a row. What matter is the overall track record. I think you value ODIs much more than I do, which may be why you don't agree with "Misbah is the best thing to happen to our cricket in the last 5 years." You probably have your own choice for this "award", which if you want to share, we can discuss in more detail here.

Excuses.

Even if we grant your fairytale for a moment, Misbah's stint as captain and list of opponents are too short to form a credible judgement.

Originally Posted by Ironcat At the end of the day, it's simply our personal opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now this is a cop out.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Firstly the common man doesn't care about a series score line, but does remember how Misbah flopped royally in 2 WCs.

Do you have a thinking process of your own? Or we need to hitch a ride to the common man for every post?

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Secondly the scoreline doesn't reflect the quality and consistency of Pakistan's opponents. This does matter. Playing minnows and medicore will not test Pakistan (or Misbah's captaincy) to the limits - playing heavyweights will.

Sorry, your cop-outs aren't going to work here. Respond to this:

----------------------------------- 3. "PAK'S LAST 2 YEARS = MINNOW BASHING" 3A: Originally Posted by Ironcat England are minnows. NZ are minnows. SL are minnows. SA are minnows. Why? Because we played them while playing BD and zimbos. Misbah has played against everyone who was put in front of him. He has captained the team to victories against the top teams in the ultimate format of the game. He doesn't have a whole lot more to prove. On the contrary, YOU need to prove why his wins against England, NZ, SL, and draw against SA were gospel. 3B: Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal The fact of the matter is Pakistan beat only one team worthy of note and that is England. We drew against SA, draw is not a win. SL and NZ are mediocre. Let’s put this excuse to rest as well. SA: Last series before Misbah: Pak lost 0-1 and then 1-2 (back-to-back) Series under Misbah: Pak drew 0-0 NZ: Last series before Misbah: Pak drew 1-1 Series under Misbah: Pak won 1-0 SL: Last series before Misbah: Pak lost 0-2 Series under Misbah: Pak won 1-0 So, what was up with those mediocre teams back then, or why weren't we able to cajole out draws against SA?

Then, a failed attempt at linking mindset to FEAR/CORRUPTION.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Last but not least - mindset of the players had changed thanks to the corupption scandal. Players dare not think about corruption at the moment because of fear of being punished, fear of bringing shame to the nation, and fear of being made an example of by the nation and the media. This is precisely what Pakistan needed, a bit of disipline in the squad. Our players were all over the place pre Tri-gate thinking they could get away with corruption forever, but now they are in a straight line. This leaves players one option - to play for Pakistan and not for corrupt money. For a generation the mindset of the team was united, thus our performance.

I obliterated your corruption/FEAR argument to which you haven't had ANY counter to date. Once again:

Let’s address the FEAR excuse. Give us a few examples where a group of people became world beaters out of FEAR. Those under Russian communism? Those under Egyptian Mubarak? Those under Kim Jong? OK, maybe give us a few examples where FEAR rooted out a problem such as corruption. Fear of being jailed rooted out drunk driving? Fear of execution rooted out murder? Fear of penalties rooted out fouls? Fear of tax prosecution rooted out tax evasion? Fear of jail AND prosecution rooted out political corruption? Next, you asked me to give a few examples where a group of people became world beaters due to LEADERSHIP. Apple became the most valued company in the world under Steve Jobs. Facebook became the largest social network under Zuckerburg. Pakistan became the world champions under Imran. Walmart became the largest retailer under Sam Walton. SA became the beacon of peace under Mandela. Want more?

You came up with an obscure example of Rossi who barely made it back into the game after conviction.

To which:

Originally Posted by Ironcat Here is a list of all professional convicted athletes and their lives after conviction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cted_of_crimes Out of the 250+, perhaps 1 or 2 ever made it back into their respective games at all (let alone were successful). A trial and/or a punishment couldn't even turn around 99% of the subjects themselves, and some jokers want us to believe that someone else's trial and/or punishment will propel you to become world beaters. That's one dinosaur of a leap of faith.

No example yet of a team/group becoming world beaters due to FEAR. 100s of examples, on the contrary, of LEADERSHIP.

And then the customary...

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Misbah has played squat role in the transformation of Pakistan cricket's mindset. Squat.

Yawn.

"Believe me because I say so."
Evidence?
"I don't have any."
Well, here is the evidence to the contrary.
"Can we change the topic?"

[Namak_Halaal]

Ironcat - stop blabbering and list the changes Misbah has brought to the team. Changes which he can be solely attributed to.

Misbah has to beat the best, achieve the best, to prove his worth, at the moment he hasn't even completed his first lap and you think he's the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years.

Misbah will be judged in time, in hindsight, not 2 years, not 5 years - that's if Misbah lasts this long.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Excuses. Even if we grant your fairytale for a moment, Misbah's stint as captain and list of opponents are too short to form a credible judgement.

Total number of tests + ODIs played under Misbah: 40

Overall tests + ODIs Pakistan played in the last 5 years: ~115

Most number of tests + ODIs played under: Misbah

There goes this argument of yours in the toilet as well.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Now this is a cop out.

That's the best you can do?

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Ironcat - stop blabbering and list the changes Misbah has brought to the team. Changes which he can be solely attributed to. Misbah has to beat the best, achieve the best, to prove his worth, at the moment he hasn't even completed his first lap and you think he's the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years. Misbah will be judged in time, in hindsight, not 2 years, not 5 years - that's if Misbah lasts this long.

List? See post # 277.

Captain has the credit for the wins and blame for the losses.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Total number of tests + ODIs played under Misbah: 40 Overall tests + ODIs Pakistan played in the last 5 years: ~115 Most number of tests + ODIs played under: Misbah There goes this argument of yours in the toilet as well.

Nice try - you were defending Misbah's captaincy.

Now tell me how many Tests Misbah has played as captain and try not to bolster Misbah’s record by including irrelevant Tests where Misbah has contributed tuk tuk innings as a player only.

Also there's quite a few blanks in Misbah's opponents list as captain.

Too short to form any credible judgement on Misbah captaincy.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Nice try - you were defending Misbah's captaincy. Now tell me how many Tests Misbah has played as captain and try not to bolster Misbah’s record by including irrelevant Tests where Misbah has contributed tuk tuk innings as a player only. Also there's quite a few blanks in Misbah's opponents list as captain. Too short to form any credible judgement on Misbah captaincy.

Sorry, that's long enough for me, and most sane posters regardless of their opinion of Misbah.

40 matches is the longest captaincy any Pakistani captain has had over the last 5 years. What part of it do you not understand?

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat List? See post # 277. Captain has the credit for the wins and blame for the losses.

So let me get this straight.

What Misbah brings new to Pakistan cricket are statistics? That’s it?

IK has worse W/L ratio compared to Misbah but IK remains the greatest - point - stats are not a measure of quality or greatness.

Anyway, the common man doesn't care about some W/L ratios; the common man does care about match winning performances, something which Misbah is not privy to. The view of the ocmmon man is important because with out it there is no legend in the making.

PS: Only a fool would equate the term match-winner with a captaincy win statistic.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Sorry, that's long enough for me, and most sane posters regardless of their opinion of Misbah. 40 matches is the longest captaincy any Pakistani captain has had over the last 5 years. What part of it do you not understand?

Yes folks pay heed - Misbah is the greatest thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years with his 2 year stint as Test captain, 3 Minnow wins, 3 Mediocre wins, one draw and one win against a heavyweight, and the best part is the player's change in mindset had nothing to do with it! What novelty!

Best not to talk about Misbah's stint as captain and player of the ODI (and T20) team.

PS: Misbah hasn't even played Australia and India in Tests as captain yet - like I said, Misbah is still on his first lap.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal So let me get this straight. What Misbah brings new to Pakistan cricket are statistics? That’s it? IK has worse W/L ratio compared to Misbah but IK remains the greatest - point - stats are not a measure of quality or greatness.

If Imran had captained Pakistan in the last 5 years and had stats worse than Misbah's, then, yes, Misbah would have been better than Imran. Did you miss the "last 5 years" part of the argument? Imran captained in another era altogether.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal The common man doesn't care about some W/L ratios; the common man does care about match winning performances, something which Misbah is not privy to. The view of the ocmmon man is important because with out it there is no legend in the making.

So, now that you have no corner left to run to, you want to hang it on the common man? This argument is not about "legends" for the common man - this is about what each of us thinks of the best thing to our cricket in the last 5 years.

The common man thinks of Amir ans Asif as the biggest cheats and disgrace to our country:


So, there. Another one in the toilet.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat If Imran had captained Pakistan in the last 5 years and had stats worse than Misbah's, then, yes, Misbah would have been better than Imran. Did you miss the "last 5 years" part of the argument? Imran captained in another era altogether.

So you agree stats do not measure quality (and greatness).

Originally Posted by Ironcat So, now that you have no corner left to run to, you want to hang it on the common man? This argument is not about "legends" for the common man - this is about what each of us thinks of the best thing to our cricket in the last 5 years.

Common man thinks nothing of Misbah.

If the common man and the media doesn't support the national captain, instead the media mock him, then the captain can never be deemed a success let alone be the best thing to happen in Pakistan cricket for 5 years unless the common man votes with his support regardless of W/L ratio.

Originally Posted by Ironcat The common man thinks of Amir ans Asif as the biggest cheats and disgrace to our country

Yes agree, (and have agreed well before in this thread) - what's your point?

Pakistan is missing their talent though, this is a fact.

Don't worry, you now have Tuk Tuk to look forward too.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Yes folks pay heed - Misbah is the greatest thing to happen to Pakistan cricket in 5 years with his 2 year stint as Test captain, 3 Minnow win , 3 Mediocre wins, one draw and one win against a heavyweight, and the best part is the player's change in mindset had nothing to do with it! What novelty! Best not to talk about Misbah's stint as captain and player of the ODI team. PS: Misbah hasn't even played Australia and India as captain yet.

If he does a fairly successful job against SA in SA, then he will be our greatest test captain since Imran Khan.
That is his final frontier, he also has to win the series against Sri Lanka, agree?

Which ODI captain from the last five years would you rate higher than him?

To your previous question:

Misbah has brought stability into the national team, which some people would classify as a defensive attitude.
There is no denying this, there is actually a sense of calm these days when we are batting.

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal So you agree stats do not measure quality (and greatness). Common man thinks nothing of Misbah. Yes agree, (and have agreed well before in this thread) - what's your point? You miss their talent though, that's a fact.

Who is this common man?
The kids in Pakistan who just want to see batsmen blindly slogging the ball?

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal 3 Minnow wins, 3 Mediocre wins, one draw and one win against a heavyweight

Argument obliterated as follows:

----------------------------------- 3. "PAK'S LAST 2 YEARS = MINNOW BASHING" 3A: Originally Posted by Ironcat England are minnows. NZ are minnows. SL are minnows. SA are minnows. Why? Because we played them while playing BD and zimbos. Misbah has played against everyone who was put in front of him. He has captained the team to victories against the top teams in the ultimate format of the game. He doesn't have a whole lot more to prove. On the contrary, YOU need to prove why his wins against England, NZ, SL, and draw against SA were gospel. 3B: Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal The fact of the matter is Pakistan beat only one team worthy of note and that is England. We drew against SA, draw is not a win. SL and NZ are mediocre. Let’s put this excuse to rest as well. SA: Last series before Misbah: Pak lost 0-1 and then 1-2 (back-to-back) Series under Misbah: Pak drew 0-0 NZ: Last series before Misbah: Pak drew 1-1 Series under Misbah: Pak won 1-0 SL: Last series before Misbah: Pak lost 0-2 Series under Misbah: Pak won 1-0 So, what was up with those mediocre teams back then, or why weren't we able to cajole out draws against SA?

Then, moving on to the claim that a mindset is changed into a world beating mindset due to FEAR (vs Leadership):

Originally Posted by Namal_Halaal and the best part is the player's change in mindset had nothing to do with it! What novelty!

No counter to the following rebuttal:

Let’s address the FEAR excuse. Give us a few examples where a group of people became world beaters out of FEAR. Those under Russian communism? Those under Egyptian Mubarak? Those under Kim Jong? OK, maybe give us a few examples where FEAR rooted out a problem such as corruption. Fear of being jailed rooted out drunk driving? Fear of execution rooted out murder? Fear of penalties rooted out fouls? Fear of tax prosecution rooted out tax evasion? Fear of jail AND prosecution rooted out political corruption? Next, you asked me to give a few examples where a group of people became world beaters due to LEADERSHIP. Apple became the most valued company in the world under Steve Jobs. Facebook became the largest social network under Zuckerburg. Pakistan became the world champions under Imran. Walmart became the largest retailer under Sam Walton. SA became the beacon of peace under Mandela. Want more?

You came up with an obscure example of Rossi who barely made it back into the game after conviction.

To which:

Originally Posted by Ironcat Here is a list of all professional convicted athletes and their lives after conviction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cted_of_crimes Out of the 250+, perhaps 1 or 2 ever made it back into their respective games at all (let alone were successful). A trial and/or a punishment couldn't even turn around 99% of the subjects themselves, and some jokers want us to believe that someone else's trial and/or punishment will propel you to become world beaters. That's one dinosaur of a leap of faith.

No example yet of a team/group becoming world beaters due to FEAR. 100s of examples, on the contrary, of LEADERSHIP.

[Namak_Halaal]

Ironcat just repeating himself.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal So you agree stats do not measure quality (and greatness).

No, I don't. If I did, I'd say so. Numbers don't lie. Find me an Imran Khan in the last 5 years. Go on.

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Common man thinks nothing of Misbah. If the common man and the media doesn't support the national captain, instead the media mock him, then the captain can never be deemed a success let alone be the best thing to happen in Pakistan cricket for 5 years unless the common man votes with his support regardless of W/L ratio..

I'm not interested in common man's opinion. If I did, I wouldn't be in a forum. Common man wants Zardari or Nawaz Sharif. I thankfully have my own brain and don't need to rely on other/common men to conduct this debate.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 If he does a fairly successful job against SA in SA, then he will be our greatest test captain since Imran Khan. That is his final frontier, he also has to win the series against Sri Lanka, agree?

The final frontier is to beat SL in a Test Series?

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Which ODI captain from the last five years would you rate higher than him?

NONE of them. What was needed was an iron fist and we got it after the exposure of of a corruption scandal - not because of Misbah.

Originally Posted by Bilal7 Misbah has brought stability into the national team, which some people would classify as a defensive attitude. There is no denying this, there is actually a sense of calm these days when we are batting.

Misbah is not responsible for stability, fear is responsible for stability in the team. Calmness in the team is not because of Misbah but because of a unified mindset - to play for Pakistan and not corrupt money.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat No, I don't. If I did, I'd say so. Numbers don't lie. Find me an Imran Khan in the last 5 years. Go on.

Oh dear, we have a case of quantity over quality.

Why 5 years and not 20 years?

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Oh dear, we have a case of quantity over quality. Why 5 years and not 20 years?

Haha. You can't refute my statement, so you want me to lower the difficulty level.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Haha. You can't refute my statement, so you want me to lower the difficulty level.

What statement? The one where you prove you choose quantity over quality? Can't teach a man class can I? What is there to refute?

Now you are are now time slicing.

Need a rope?

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Misbah is not responsible for stability, fear is responsible for stability in the team. Calmness in the team is not because of Misbah but because of a unified mindset - to play for Pakistan and not corrupt money.

Well, respond to this then:

Let’s address the FEAR excuse. Give us a few examples where a group of people became world beaters out of FEAR. Those under Russian communism? Those under Egyptian Mubarak? Those under Kim Jong? OK, maybe give us a few examples where FEAR rooted out a problem such as corruption. Fear of being jailed rooted out drunk driving? Fear of execution rooted out murder? Fear of penalties rooted out fouls? Fear of tax prosecution rooted out tax evasion? Fear of jail AND prosecution rooted out political corruption? Next, you asked me to give a few examples where a group of people became world beaters due to LEADERSHIP. Apple became the most valued company in the world under Steve Jobs. Facebook became the largest social network under Zuckerburg. Pakistan became the world champions under Imran. Walmart became the largest retailer under Sam Walton. SA became the beacon of peace under Mandela. Want more?

You came up with an obscure example of Rossi who barely made it back into the game after conviction.

To which:

Originally Posted by Ironcat Here is a list of all professional convicted athletes and their lives after conviction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cted_of_crimes Out of the 250+, perhaps 1 or 2 ever made it back into their respective games at all (let alone were successful). A trial and/or a punishment couldn't even turn around 99% of the subjects themselves, and some jokers want us to believe that someone else's trial and/or punishment will propel you to become world beaters. That's one dinosaur of a leap of faith.

No example yet of a team/group becoming world beaters due to FEAR. 100s of examples, on the contrary, of LEADERSHIP.

[Ironcat]

Tell you what, Namak_Halaal. You seem to be wasting a lot of productive time here (most of all, your own).

You present a random argument, we present concrete evidence against it, and you run away from that argument. Then, 5 posts later, you resurface with the same argument, and rightfully, we refer you back to the evidence against it.

Now, you want to hang your entire booty with the "common man's opinion" or that Misbah's stint is not long enough to believe those numbers. Though we have dismissed those things as well, but it seems like you want an exit from this argument.

Here let me provide it to you.

If you feel that Misbah needs to do whatever else (insert your favorite target here) to prove he is the best thing to happen to our cricket in the last 5 years, then I suggest you simply wait and see how it turns out.

Meanwhile, those of us willing to take a plunge today can form an opinion of our own today. If you notice, we have one, and we have noted your disagreement. Let's agree to disagree, and perhaps we can bump this thread when Misbah has captained against the Aussies or Indians or walked on water or whatever else you like.

D'accord?

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Well, respond to this then: You came up with an obscure example of Rossi who barely made it back into the game after conviction. To which: No example yet of a team/group becoming world beaters due to FEAR. 100s of examples, on the contrary, of LEADERSHIP.

Obscure example? Falsification requires just one example, and you got one.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Obscure example? Falsification requires just one example, and you got one.

I provided you 99 to the contrary. Shall we do the count together?

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Let's agree to disagree, and perhaps we can bump this thread when Misbah has captained against the Aussies or Indians or walked on water or whatever else you like. D'accord?

We can bump this thread after the SL series.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat I provided you 99 to the contrary. Shall we do the count together?

Which part of 1 is enough for falsification did you not comprehend?

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Which part of 1 is enough for falsification did you not comprehend?

Here is your example busted as well:

While at Perugia he was involved in the infamous 1980 betting scandal known in Italy as Totonero, and as a result of this Rossi was disqualified for three years though this was later reduced to a two year ban. However, Rossi always claimed to be innocent and be victim of an injustice. In his book Ho fatto piangere il Brasile (I Made Brazil Cry) one of the people that accused him in 1980 admitted that the accusations against him at that time were invented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Rossi

Next.

[Namak_Halaal]

I look forward to Ironcat updating Misbah's W/L ratio pretty soon.

Good night!

[Bilal7]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal The final frontier is to beat SL in a Test Series? NONE of them. What was needed was an iron fist and we got it after the exposure of of a corruption scandal - not because of Misbah. Misbah is not responsible for stability, fear is responsible for stability in the team. Calmness in the team is not because of Misbah but because of a unified mindset - to play for Pakistan and not corrupt money.

No, His final frontier is to beat South Africa in a test series, in South Africa.

Iron Fist?? Chairman Butt was the biggest iron fist ever, we know how that turned out. Someone has to be the best out of the three.

Why didn't the banning of Yousuf and Younis not unify the team together, they were much more valuable at that time than the A's?

How come we didn't see this kind of stability when Afridi was captain and the same Misbah had to bail Pakistan out of every collapse?

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Here is your example busted as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Rossi Next.

Nope.

Read carefully. Rossi went to prison, so he was convicted of corruption in a court of law.

If you think some book by Rossi claiming his innocence after being legally convicted and punished of a crime is busting my example then you must also believe Amir is innocent because he too was convicted, punished, and later claimed his innocence in a SKY interview.

Tsk tsk. Shame on you Ironcat. Your desperation to refute my example has exposed your flawed logic yet again.

Go to bed.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Nope. Read carefully. Rossi went to prison, so he was convicted of corruption in a court of law. If you think some book by Rossi claiming his innocence after being legally convicted and punished of a crime is busting my example then you must also believe Amir is innocent because he too was convicted, punished, and later claimed his innocence in a SKY interview. Tsk tsk. Shame on you Ironcat. Your desperation to refute my example has exposed your flawed logic yet again. Go to bed.

Wrong. Rossi NEVER went to jail.

italy’s 1982 World Cup winning golden boy and tournament top scorer almost didn’t make the Finals at all after serving out two years of a ban imposed for alledgedly accepting a bribe in a match between Perugia, where he was on loan , and Avellino in 1980. Despite having scored two goals in the game, Rossi was given a three year suspension which was eventually reduced to two years after the player continually protested his innocence of the charges.

What world are you living in? Aamir accepted his guilty charges. Rossi never did.

Your supposed argument is "people change behavior after they are subjected to a mindset change". Aamir's mindset may be influenced because he admitted he wasguilty. Rossi never did. He was innocent in his mind, and this completely annihilates your logic.

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal If you think some book by Rossi claiming his innocence after being legally convicted and punished of a crime is busting my example then you must also believe Amir is innocent because he too was convicted, punished, and later claimed his innocence in a SKY interview.

And err, that book is not Rossi's book. It was the book written by one of his accusers.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Wrong. Rossi NEVER went to jail. What world are you living in? Aamir accepted his guilty charges. Rossi never did. Your supposed argument is "people change behavior after they are subjected to a mindset change". Aamir's mindset may be influenced because he admitted he wasguilty. Rossi never did. He was innocent in his mind, and this completely annihilates your logic.

So a convicted Rossi played exceptionally well guiding his nation to World Cup glory in fear of being labelled a corrupt crook. Got it.

Good night Ironcat.

Speak soon.

[Ironcat]

Now that we have busted this one up too (Rosso went to jail, Aamir didn't admit, Rosso had a mindset change, etc), we are back to square one. Perhaps in your dreams, you can conjure up a real example of corruption scandals moving people to do something out of FEAR.

Meanwhile leadership examples galore.

[I Believe in the Teesra]

Iron Cat be cleaning some houses. Just read through this thread and some sparkling debate. I'd agree with Ironcats points IMO.

[iZeeshan]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 If he does a fairly successful job against SA in SA, then he will be our greatest test captain since Imran Khan. That is his final frontier, he also has to win the series against Sri Lanka, agree? Which ODI captain from the last five years would you rate higher than him? To your previous question: Misbah has brought stability into the national team, which some people would classify as a defensive attitude. There is no denying this, there is actually a sense of calm these days when we are batting.

Yeah, so calm that we can't chase 129, or consistently post 250+ in an ODI or even get close to 280.

[Captain]

He is not amatch winner bacause name me any international team with a decent batting order who'll pick misbah in their team and drop any of their batsman... probably none... and people strangly compare Afridi to misbah at times which I don't but on the flip side if they were to compare how many international teams will want Afridi in their limited over team.. probably most.

[Namak_Halaal]

Originally Posted by Ironcat Now that we have busted this one up too (Rosso went to jail, Aamir didn't admit, Rosso had a mindset change, etc), we are back to square one. Perhaps in your dreams, you can conjure up a real example of corruption scandals moving people to do something out of FEAR. Meanwhile leadership examples galore.

Busted? In the same way your 16-1 Misbah Test score line got busted?

Rossi example stands - he was still convicted of corruption and was performing in fear of being labelled a crook - playing to clear his name.

Leadership examples do not stand in this case, leaders bring change, and are not the result of change like Misbah.

[IM NOT YOU]

Originally Posted by Bilal7 If he does a fairly successful job against SA in SA, then he will be our greatest test captain since Imran Khan. That is his final frontier, he also has to win the series against Sri Lanka, agree? Which ODI captain from the last five years would you rate higher than him? To your previous question: Misbah has brought stability into the national team, which some people would classify as a defensive attitude. There is no denying this, there is actually a sense of calm these days when we are batting.

sense of calmness? rofl. is this the description we have resorted to after getting whitewashed by england

[Ironcat]

Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal Busted? In the same way your 16-1 Misbah Test score line got busted? Rossi example stands - he was still convicted of corruption and was performing in fear of being labelled a crook - playing to clear his name. Leadership examples do not stand in this case, leaders bring change, and are not the result of change like Misbah.

Sorry, dude, my 15-1 to 9-1 didn't change a single element of the argument. 9-1 is still WAY better than anything before Misbah.

There are so many things wrong with yours:

(1) Rossi didn't get jailed AND there was no crime proven; Amir/Asif did get jailed AND there was a crime proven;

(2) Rossi's mindset was that of an innocent person's mindset (much like Misbah's who was dropped but never proven to be criminal) which had NO fear; Amir/Asif's mindset was that of criminals.

(3) Rossi's mindset had NO fear - only motivation to prove his critics wrong (much like Misbah's); Amir/Asif's minds were full of fear but they can't do anything about it.

(4) Rossi himself returned to the game to continue performing just like he was performing previously; Amir/Asif never returned to the game.

(5) Rossi performed on his own; Amir/Asif stayed back in the jail and watched the games from their cells.

(6) When Rossi was playing, his name was already cleared. There was absolutely no fear. Only personal motivation. More like Misbah. Got dropped and wanted to prove his critics wrong. More like Younis Khan. Got scandalized by the board and wanted to prove his critics wrong. None of them were corrupt. The fear logic does NOT work here.

(7) Rossi's example is a personal motivation example and not that of his team's (his team never got suspended and never was in fear EVER); Amir/Asif's examples are personal motivation examples but we have no idea how they will turn out.

Clearly, the fear logic is entirely absent here. Not just that, the logic involves personal motivation - NOT the team. Finally, you need to give a few of them for us to believe that they were not exceptions.

As for leadership examples, I gave you a handful of leadership instances. Your "agent of change" argument is meaningless because you haven't proven to us that the change from another source was significant enough to suddenly make the team world beaters.

[JibranAnsari]

He is , at best, A match saver.