The PP MiddleEast debate - can it be revived in a mature way this time ?

[MIG]

I know that Neils thread went off on a tangent, some posters took it upon themselves to create a mini MiddleEastern conflict on PP but that is understandable as this is an emotive issue for all.

Neil has written to me to restart the debate but he wants some ground rules to which all parties should abide by.

Before, I invite Neil to come back here, my question to you all is simply this : Are we ready to discuss this without asking for annihilation of each other ? Is a predominantly Muslim board able to digest and react in a civilized manner to arguments which dont suit us now.

Pls let me know your views. Also, what ground rules should govern this debate.

Remember, Neil Rubin is the editor of an influential Jewish publication - what we talk about etc can easily be construed as the general Muslim feeling and depicted that way to his readership. Neil has also promised to do an article on how a cricket forum, PakPassion, is playing its role in fomenting a constructive debate between Jews and Muslims - pls take all these into account and think about it before replying to this thread.

These are troubled times for ALL of us - think carefully - our next generations will look to us for leadership.

[Hussain]

its just beyond me
its an Arab war ...so why are we Pakistanis bothered too much about it

most of us Pakistanis might be muslims first but Arabs are arabs first

so i dont think our interference would go down too well with either arabs or US

[Oxy]

Originally Posted by Hussain its just beyond me its an Arab war ...so why are we Pakistanis bothered too much about it most of us Pakistanis might be muslims first but Arabs are arabs first so i dont think our interference would go down too well with either arabs or US

So when the devestating earthquake hit Pakistan - we needed the whole WORLD to assist us!

[sneekysneeky]

no issues with Neil... Steve went a little overboard...

[Gasherbrum]

sneeky - fact is, there are many out there who share Steve's opinion and i think its great that we were able to hear all that, however offensive it may have been. we should have the ability to stomach that yet reply without letting our emotions get in the way.

[Nawazb]

The problem was people were not appreciating the value of life in the old thread , because the death of a palestinian is just as tragic as a death of an israeli, if people begin to accept this then i believe dialogue can occur. Also there was too much speculation and rumours in the last thread with no concrete facts to back them up so this led to people making the wrong conclusions.
I would like the debate to be revived again!

[Schiller]

Not in favour of it

[Civil]

Steve's responses towards the end of the previous thread really turned me off what had started as an interesting dialougue. It just became a real pointless thread of one upmanship after the billionth page.

It proved to me that there is no real solution to the middle east conflict. So I am also not in favour of it.

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by Gasherbrum sneeky - fact is, there are many out there who share Steve's opinion and i think its great that we were able to hear all that, however offensive it may have been. we should have the ability to stomach that yet reply without letting our emotions get in the way.

i agree but i honestly dont think the debate will get us anywhere... after a 1000+ posts we came back to "i hope they come back in bodybags" and "they deserve to die"...

[MIG]

OK let me turn this into a poll .... we will run it for a week and see.

[Schiller]

Bury it mig,

[MIG]

Neil has written to me and since this kind of thread adds a new dimension to TimePass - why not ?

Anyway, lets the masses ( or the PP massive ) decide.

[Schiller]

check your pm

[Schiller]

gasher your nobility is well intentioned but futility

[sneekysneeky]

voted yes... but i dont think its going to help anyone...

[Schiller]

judas!!

[shabbu1]

I think reviving the dialogue is a positive move; not only was it educational in the sense of elminating harsh bias, but it'll only help in taking a step forward to some sort of resolution and understanding between Mulims and Jews...Although having said that, Steve's posts were disheartning and offensive at times, rules and borders must be implemented.

[Schiller]

To be honest, I didn't mind Neil or even Steve. A lot of you here get too emotional and frankly very few have any reasonable amount of knowledge to carry on the discussion. I don't believe in academic debates without there being some middle ground of commonality. two strangers coming together to discuss, goes nowhere,
the last thread was a 1000 post and i have no idea what it was about till the last few posts, it was lagging for sometime to begin with, almost like an old hag,
what is left to discuss? Nothing. Ask Neil to come to PP for the fun of it and learn to befriend people here, open to steve too. discussions on such matters are a waste of time.

[Schiller]

You're going to sit here and pontificate on how to get both pals and israelis happy, one state two state, common wives, communist manifesto, russia, put put putin...

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by Schiller judas!!

[Schiller]

who else voted no here, cmon let me know, meeting of common minds and what not

[Aurangzeb]

neil is a good guy and from his posts, he was trying to restrain his friend...steve was only a recent addition to this dialogue...the talks we were having with neil for the last couple of months were civilized because he was civilized...steve was insulting islam, and that's where i had problems...i think neil's article can be really good positive publicity for pakpassion and help the pakistani image as well...lets give it another shot and if another rightwinger like steve comes along, just ignore him...those kind of people just look to get a reaction...

[MIG]

We wont be restarting this dialogue in a hurry - esp given event in MiddleEast - let that subside but in the meantime, let me know your views.

[Aurangzeb]

mig...post neil's article on here when you get it...should be an interesting read...

[robosapien]

Originally Posted by Schiller who else voted no here, cmon let me know, meeting of common minds and what not

well, i voted no. i think we have enough of discussion on the topic and both parties do understand each other's point of view (atleast for sometime!).

[Gasherbrum]

don't think it should be treated as an academic debate so any knowledge or lack thereof shouldn't be of concern. i look at it more like a chance to learn what the other side really thinks, however ridiculous it may be. perception is reality, is it not?

[zushy_786]

Voted No, frankly because of lack of sensible debate that had gone on in the other thread after a promising debate and after Steve had posted with his pro-Bush views.....Frankly, both sides are simply too entrenched in their opinions, and it is even comical to hear people like Steve who love Bush and what he is doing......

[Easa]

Voted no.

[DM]

I haven't voted.

It was a useful thread for guaging perception, but unless it serves the other purpose of learning from new information it's value is limited, in my view. If faced with information of a greater truth than your own, you should recognise it, not invoke defence mechanisms (such as posting a completely falsified attack in an attempt to discredit an individual). So it depends on obstinacy. I'm not optimistic.

[DM]

Voted Yes because dialogue, contact between both sides is almost always better than none.

[cavin420]

voted yes, thought both neil and steve were alright.....but missed the last set of pages...what happened ? thread still around ?

[Slugger]

Originally Posted by Gasherbrum sneeky - fact is, there are many out there who share Steve's opinion and i think its great that we were able to hear all that, however offensive it may have been. we should have the ability to stomach that yet reply without letting our emotions get in the way.

[Slugger]

Originally Posted by zushy_786 Voted No, frankly because of lack of sensible debate that had gone on in the other thread after a promising debate and after Steve had posted with his pro-Bush views.....Frankly, both sides are simply too entrenched in their opinions, and it is even comical to hear people like Steve who love Bush and what he is doing......

i think steve is the type that works for fox news

[rf]

Originally Posted by Slugger i think steve is the type that works for fox news

Hold on their brother, calling it fox news is too generous. Its fox "news"

[Invictus]

You need to have ground rules laid down first and decide in advance which issue will be discussed. These things go out of hand quick because instead of trying to know the point of view of the other side people let their emotions get the better of them. Internet is so impersonal that people feel like they can whatever they feel like without ever trying to be decent and courteous. This needs to be more of a personal debate so the boundries of respect and decency wont be breached easily.
I voted no.

[MIG]

I think an important part of this debate is not to be shocked by views of others, or make statements that are provocative in nature.

Also, is this a debate or an attempt to get along - which one would you prefer ?

[Invictus]

Ultimately it should be designed to get to know each other which should lead to constructive dialogue and then to getting along. Or else whats the point.

[MIG]

Also, we have to ask ourselves this question - can we handle an alternative point of view on ANY subject ? This is where all these debates fall over ( esp since this is the Internet )

[ziggy]

There should be some sort of qualification for voting..a test of sorts..please don't turn pp into a democracy

[DM]

Originally Posted by ziggy There should be some sort of qualification for voting..a test of sorts..please don't turn pp into a democracy

I second that proposal. I also think we should extend the qualification as a prerequisite for posting in the middle-east thread. Something like an 'estimated IQ' score

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by MIG Also, we have to ask ourselves this question - can we handle an alternative point of view on ANY subject ? This is where all these debates fall over ( esp since this is the Internet )

Did u even look at Steve's last post? U really cant justify "that" post and then ask for a rational debate from our side. I have no issues with Neil, but Steve is unacceptable.

[Big Daddy]

How ironical is it that 32 posters have bothered to vote with 20 in favor of continuation of dialogue yet I never saw even 10 posters who were really contributing in that thread.

[Aurangzeb]

those who go crazy should be reprimanded...but that applies to the other side as well...i didn't see any mods telling steve to calm the hell down...

[cavin420]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy How ironical is it that 32 posters have bothered to vote with 20 in favor of continuation of dialogue yet I never saw even 10 posters who were really contributing in that thread.

dont know about other's , but i was a mere spectator eager to learn about past event's, difference's & The major issue's.


i think Neil is a top bloke....steve was not too bad whilst i was keeping an eye on the thread..he did leave supposedly in between (that's when i stopped reading)...what happened after that, i dont know since a lot of post's got deleted ?

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by cavin420 dont know about other's , but i was a mere spectator eager to learn about past event's, difference's & The major issue's.

yep same here...

[Gasherbrum]

Originally Posted by ziggy There should be some sort of qualification for voting..a test of sorts..please don't turn pp into a democracy

sure, let start with you. open wide ...


Aurang - maybe the mods sent out PMs?
BD - there was a point where contributing to the thread became futile. also, you don't necessarily have to say something to learn from others.

[MIG]

For the record - the thread was very civilized until some posters from our end decided to take it upon themselves to make snide remarks on Israeli policies etc.

Steve was spoken to - infact he asked me at many points if I wanted him to continue.

My answer was the same - be civil and state your pov - simple.

We cannot have a one sided discussion on this board where there is NO opposing point of view?

Steve did lose his cool and he has told me that he wont post on this board as he feels that the gap in our views is too huge to fill.

[Solid Snake]

Having just viewed the original thread... I'm not quite sure it is the right thing to do.

These are some very delicate issues, and I think it will only be a matter of time before it turns into a heated arguement. Which would most likely offend a lot of people. It's one thing debating about cricket. But a longstanding conflict that has taken so many lives... I really don't see it working, sorry but thats just my opinion. So I'm going to have to vote No.

[MIG]

No .. SS - that is fine - this is one thing I will have to consider but maybe the thread can be about just a friendly one to understand each other...

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by MIG Steve did lose his cool and he has told me that he wont post on this board as he feels that the gap in our views is too huge to fill.

MIG, in such conflicts, it is foolish to think that there is one 'right side' and one 'bad side'. A conflict as such will always have disagreements over who is right and who is wrong.

It is unreasonable for someone to claim that Irsrael or pal. have been the victims, the one who have been wronged. Having said that I am very much agaisnt isral, why? Not because they are mercilessly evil, constantly attacking there neighbours for no purpose. I admit both sides have bad people, and as a result a spiralling clash will always be around the corner. But the policies that have been used by the 'civilised' army, against mindless 'terrorists' is appalling... How can they justify the thousands of prisoners of palestenian origin as well as lebanese? Of which 400 are children? Being held there for years, the majority without even trials? An exscript taken from an article (http://www.counterpunch.com/Whitney07182006.html):

"The I.sraelis have developed “sound machines” that emit ear-piercing explosions that have been deployed in Gaza City to shatter windows, cause miscarriages, and send children into deep trauma. It is a “terror device” pure and simple; it has no other function except to produce massive fear and anxiety. It is the latest weapon in the prodigious arsenal of the “world’s most moral army” (Olmert quote)"

It is clear to me who the aggressor is in this war, and its not some crazed militia Is.lamist

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by MIG No .. SS - that is fine - this is one thing I will have to consider but maybe the thread can be about just a friendly one to understand each other...

Well then I would'nt mind that at all, after viewing the original, it def. started off in friendly terms. But as soon as politics came up... it was only a matter of time before everything went pear shaped... So if there is a thread, politics wouldn't be the greatest issue to discuss.

[the Great Khan]

My opinion: Neil is someone who I have a lot of time for and someone who I genuinley would really invite home for a cup of tea and a frank discussion...In short a person I can have peace with...but Steve I have no time for at all...most of his posts were sheer right wing propaganda which unfortunatley brought the worst out in many of us(yes i admit losing my cool a bit..)...ultimatley Steve just cannot acknowledge that the Palestinians have a right to exist on that land too( remember he supports an agreement made between an unelected hijazi king and a Zionist, that supports the ethnic cleansing of Palestine)..Im sorry but in todays context and the world we live in that for me is a position that is untenable...you cannot negotiate from a basis that is so wrong...I welcome the debate as long as the rules apply to every1 including any more Zionists that decide to come aboard...but Steve is a no no for me..especially after his lack of remorse for innocent Palestinians...with Neil i was getting somewhere..with steve well its a brick wall and my head..no point talkin with people like him!!

[Aurangzeb]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake Well then I would'nt mind that at all, after viewing the original, it def. started off in friendly terms. But as soon as politics came up... it was only a matter of time before everything went pear shaped... So if there is a thread, politics wouldn't be the greatest issue to discuss.

i disagree...i was involved in this thread from the very beginning and politics was an inherent part of it...there was also relgious dialogue toward the latter stages, but politics was the key topic...

steve's views weren't anything new...as long as he kept it to politics it was fine...everything went out of control after he started insulting islam...the typical "barbaric, uncivilized, backward" bakwas...we weren't calling judaism a nazi religion were we?...

anyways...those who can't keep their cool just shouldn't post...easy enough...

[the Great Khan]

also if we cant talk politics well what is there then to discuss..the whole problem is related to politics...just discussing the weather isnt gone solve any differences...

[Abdul Qadir 236]

amazing the total contempt shown for anyone more right wing than the lib dems on this forum.

[Officer Barbrady]

Originally Posted by Gasherbrum sneeky - fact is, there are many out there who share Steve's opinion and i think its great that we were able to hear all that, however offensive it may have been. we should have the ability to stomach that yet reply without letting our emotions get in the way.

I disagree. Such people, on either side, don't help matters in any way. A simple waste of time.

[Officer Barbrady]

Originally Posted by AmitMishra bowls wrongun amazing the total contempt shown for anyone more right wing than the lib dems on this forum.

May be you should post your definitions for each label when you go about your usual business.

[Aurangzeb]

Originally Posted by AmitMishra bowls wrongun amazing the total contempt shown for anyone more right wing than the lib dems on this forum.

yes, i have contempt for those who insult islam...

[nafajafam]

not sure why that thread deserves a poll. in any case, voted no.

[zushy_786]

Originally Posted by nafajafam not sure why that thread deserves a poll. in any case, voted no.

nafa you bum finally posts, everything ok in paradise ?

[Daoud]

Originally Posted by AmitMishra bowls wrongun amazing the total contempt shown for anyone more right wing than the lib dems on this forum.

Well sadly, its only really the people on the left of that who are really sympathetic to the plight of the Muslims, at least as a collective group

[Team Slayer]

the debate, imho, is pointless.

[Gasherbrum]

i'd like to see what they have to say for themselves now. i heard the israeli ambassador to canada ask what the UN observers were doing there in the first place during this time of war, a statement echoed by the US ambassador to Canada, PM Harper. so really it was the UN's fault in the end.
i suppose they were observing but i guess one side really, really doesn't want to be observed right now.

[nafajafam]

Originally Posted by zushy_786 nafa you bum finally posts, everything ok in paradise ?

all was well until passport got revoked and am back here.

back to topic, discussion is futile. the solution for palestine is the same way israel was formed and discussion has no place.

[Steve Tucker]

Originally Posted by MIG For the record - the thread was very civilized until some posters from our end decided to take it upon themselves to make snide remarks on Israeli policies etc. Steve was spoken to - infact he asked me at many points if I wanted him to continue. My answer was the same - be civil and state your pov - simple. We cannot have a one sided discussion on this board where there is NO opposing point of view? Steve did lose his cool and he has told me that he wont post on this board as he feels that the gap in our views is too huge to fill.

That's right, I did promise not to post anymore. I did just post one in the Israel/Hezbollah thread, but I won't do any more. It was just an article anyway.

Here's the bottom line for me:

1. I'm disturbed by the fact that so many folks on here seem to have little or no respect for any views other than left-wing views. I've been called a "Fox News" lackey, a "right-winger," and personally insulted for supporting Bush. It is always amusing to me how left wingers purport to stand for tolerance and diversity, but when they're actually confronted by diversity (in the form of another point of view) they are anything but tolerant, or supportive of diversity.

2. There is no solution to the middle east problem. Talking about it only inflames passions and gets people frustrated. Diplomacy has not succeeded in the over 60 years it has been tried; there's little reason to believe it will ever succeed.

3. The formula for peace in the ME is "land for peace." The Israelis have given up land; they have gotten not peace, as was promised, but more and more violence, and more dangerous violence at that. If I were an Israeli, I would never agree to give up land for peace again. If that is the framework, then I think there is no chance in hell that there will ever be peace. It is a failed framework, as the Arabs have shown that they will not honor it.

4. This war is not about land, if it ever was. I repeat: this war is not about land. The actions of Hamas and Hezbollah make that abundantly clear, and they also demonstrate to Israel how much more dangerous it is to withdraw from land than to just continue to occupy it. Instead, it is about Israel's existence. While there may be some on this board who respect Israel's right to exist (and I urge you to think about what it means to deligitimize Israel, since many states in the ME were created out of thin air over the past 100 years, including Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, etc.), most Arabs and Muslims do not, unfortunately. And they not only don't support Israel's right to exist, but they want to kill Jews anywhere they live. In fact, up until the late 70s, the Arabs themselves, including the Palestinians, never saw this as a conflict over land. They saw it as a conflict over the existence of Israel. The Palestinians, from the '30s until the late '70s, considered themselves Syrians, and didn't want their own state but wanted to be affiliated with Syria. Jordan was against this and did a lot to prevent it, but that's another story. The point is that this was never about land, as the Palestinians would have us all believe and has been repeated and bought into by our inane media.

5. I think it comes down to this: the Muslim world has what can only be described as an unholy, destructive fetish with respect to Israel and Jews. It's beyond even an obsession. From my perspective, it's now entered the realm of a disgusting fetish. The Muslim world seems unable to function without Israel as its whipping dog. Muslims everywhere use Israel as an excuse for their frustrations, their failed states and failed societies, and as justification of religious violence. They want Israel gone. The Islamofascists want Jews dead, not land. Until this fetish is dealt with, there will be no peace. Unfortunately, that fetish can only be cured by Muslims themselves.

It is sad when I read posts from people who say the Jews should be settled elsewhere. The jews have been settled everywhere. They came from all over the world, where they were killed and abused, and were forced to leave their homes and move to a hot, mosquito-ridden, unarable land, where instead of focusing on and tryhing to kill citizens of all the nations that had abused them and killed them over the years, they built a society and an economy that is one of the most dynamic in the world. And during the same period, the Muslims (particularly the Palestinians), who could have been doing the same thing and moving on, have instead regressed, entrenched, and fomented a fetish of anti-Semitism and cults of death over a tiny piece of land in which a nation of a few million Jews is trying to have a go of it after the most devastating annihilation in our history.

If the Muslims don't want Israel to exist, perhaps they'd consider carving out regions of their own countries where Jews lived for millenia before being driven out after Israel's formation in 1948. After all, if Palestinians have claims to land they've allegedly been living in for years, then shouldn't Jews have a claim on parts of Baghdad, Yemen, Morocco, Iran, Syria, etc? Let's create Jewish states in all these countries. I'm sure they won't mind giving up a little land . . . right?

I think the Muslims could take a few lessons from the jews and just let it go, man. Just let it go. Move on. Build your economies and your societies. Go to work in the morning, love your kids, go to your mosques, take your wives out dancing. And stop using jews and Israel as an excuse for violence and poverty and political impotence. Clean your own houses first. Just get over it.

That is all I will say. I will not post again.

MIG, thank you for being one of the few reasonable folks on this board. And thanks for putting up with me. Ciao.

[cavin420]

Originally Posted by Steve Tucker Build your economies and your societies. Go to work in the morning, love your kids, go to your mosques, And stop using jews and Israel as an excuse for violence and poverty and political impotence. Clean your own houses first. Just get over it. :

Agree 110% , spot on you are


and Steve all the best : )

[MIG]

Unfortunately, Steves advice isnt of any use to the people being bombed every day in Lebanon!

But yes, we as Muslims, have always recognized our shortcomings but does that mean we turn a blind eye to the suffering of others ?

[CrickFan]

As someone who has travelled and lived all over Europe and North America ..I came across many non-Muslims ..who felt that Jews were unfairly dominating the World and Media .. That Israel was sending US kids to fight their (Israeli ) enemies ...Any criticism of Israel is immediately branded as anti-semitic ...Infact there was a poll in europe - and Israel was labelled as the most like country to cause death and destruction ..
I will request people to educate themselves regarding the creation of Israel ...Israel is an illegal entity carved out of Arab land abetted by who else (US &UK ) in UN ..Every Muslim country was opposed to it .
Offcourse Jews have right to exist ..but not on usurped Arab territory .. Please note that creation of Israel was the turning point ... that drove some Muslims to take to extremism ...

[MIG]

CricFan - pls read the Neil Rubin thread for a detailed argument on Israels existence etc - its not as simple as you put it. Every story has 2 views, as does this saga.

If Israel is an illegal entity, so are the borders of Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi, Qatar etc any country which was created by Imperial powers, including the Durand line that separates us and Afghanistan.

Point is to understand the facts on the ground and move forward to get us the best deal possible - claiming Israel is an illegal entity is a great speech - but has no bearing on the facts.

[CrickFan]

Originally Posted by MIG CricFan - pls read the Neil Rubin thread for a detailed argument on Israels existence etc - its not as simple as you put it. Every story has 2 views, as does this saga. If Israel is an illegal entity, so are the borders of Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi, Qatar etc any country which was created by Imperial powers, including the Durand line that separates us and Afghanistan. Point is to understand the facts on the ground and move forward to get us the best deal possible - claiming Israel is an illegal entity is a great speech - but has no bearing on the facts.

Sir - I am too small a person to make a speech ...This is not a story ..It is a fact that Israel was created from Arab land aided and abetted by western powers ..and what I have stated are facts ..The resolutions were passed in UN and all the Muslim countries opposed it ..Feel free to educate me if I am wrong in stating the above
I fully agree that the borders that exist (Jordan , Kuwait etc ) were created by imperial powers ..But there is one major difference ..no one was displaced in those countries ...most people accepted it mutually although there are few disputes here and there ...
In the case of Palestine - an entire population was banished from their own land ..and subjected to worst kind of torture known to human beings ..What if someone occupied your house and threw your family members out ..50 years later - you would still be the victim ..and the other guy the agressor ..
Let us not forget facts in order to be politically correct ..We are not telling a story here (and that it will have 2 sides )..
US is the only country that has dropped nuclear bombs on civilians ....does it also have "2 sides " ?
I repeat let us not forget facts and history in order to be politically correct .

[MIG]

Even the US Atomic bomb story has 2 sides to it - we may not agree but their is a different view.

As for the Palestinians, they were dealt harshly by the Zionists in the 40s, I dont doubt that. Whether they belong to that land, well the argument goes back to the crusades so, again there are 2 points of view in this.

There are other facts as well, and we should look at them before talking of Israel - the fact that Arabs dont themselves want Palestinians in their "borders" - Jordan forcibly expelled thousands in the 60s and our own Gen Zia-ul-Haque was responsible for the military task force that accomplished this with tanks (Black September)

I am not being politically correct - all I want is this blind claim that " we are right " from both sides to go away - none of this helps the innocent who die every day - on both sides. More on the non Israeli side but that is another issue.

[the Great Khan]

I think the Muslims could take a few lessons from the jews and just let it go, man. Just let it go. Move on. Build your economies and your societies. Go to work in the morning, love your kids, go to your mosques, take your wives out dancing. And stop using jews and Israel as an excuse for violence and poverty and political impotence. Clean your own houses first. Just get over it.

yeah we're trying to but everytime we almost get there the children and mosques get blown away by american weapons...and no we cant let it go while you occupy,kill and harass our mothers, daughters and sons...deal with it...and stop denying the atrocities that you people are committing..

we have problems...all our societes do..but we judge people by their deeds not words...unlike the Isrealis who are good at words and spin...all we ask for is a modicum of respect but as usual the supporters of zionism have nothing to say excpet that their blood is worth more than ours...then so be it...zionist rightwingers have a tendency to dismiss Muslim grevances as fetishe's or blind hatred...im sure the children in that shelter in Qana didnt hate Jews, they were just afraid and are now in paradise thanks to some precision guided munitions...and the zionist propaganda machine goes on and on..blame the arabs for dieng, blame the arabs for getting blown up..blame them for the bad weather...and so forth..personally im sick of it...Isreal needs to grow up or get lost!!....its actions speak for themselves..words mean nothing..only deeds!!..Isreali apologists need to face the facts that your pathetic little state wont last another fifty years and after seeing those dead children ill be glad when this blight has gone!!..maybe then our children can rest peacefully in the knowledge that Isreali children wont be sending them any more messages printed on artillery shells..!!...
we want peace with justice not peace at the end of an Isreali weapon....

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan yeah we're trying to but everytime we almost get there the children and mosques get blown away by american weapons...and no we cant let it go while you occupy,kill and harass our mothers, daughters and sons...deal with it...and stop denying the atrocities that you people are committing.. we have problems...all our societes do..but we judge people by their deeds not words...unlike the Isrealis who are good at words and spin...all we ask for is a modicum of respect but as usual the supporters of zionism have nothing to say excpet that their blood is worth more than ours...then so be it...zionist rightwingers have a tendency to dismiss Muslim grevances as fetishe's or blind hatred...im sure the children in that shelter in Qana didnt hate Jews, they were just afraid and are now in paradise thanks to some precision guided munitions...and the zionist propaganda machine goes on and on..blame the arabs for dieng, blame the arabs for getting blown up..blame them for the bad weather...and so forth..personally im sick of it...Isreal needs to grow up or get lost!!....its actions speak for themselves..words mean nothing..only deeds!!..Isreali apologists need to face the facts that your pathetic little state wont last another fifty years and after seeing those dead children ill be glad when this blight has gone!!..maybe then our children can rest peacefully in the knowledge that Isreali children wont be sending them any more messages printed on artillery shells..!!... we want peace with justice not peace at the end of an Isreali weapon....

i fully agree...

[Jimmy two-times]

Superb post great khan and agree with 100% with what you have posted.

[Aurangzeb]

Originally Posted by Steve Tucker That's right, I did promise not to post anymore. I did just post one in the Israel/Hezbollah thread, but I won't do any more. It was just an article anyway. Here's the bottom line for me: 1. I'm disturbed by the fact that so many folks on here seem to have little or no respect for any views other than left-wing views. I've been called a "Fox News" lackey, a "right-winger," and personally insulted for supporting Bush. It is always amusing to me how left wingers purport to stand for tolerance and diversity, but when they're actually confronted by diversity (in the form of another point of view) they are anything but tolerant, or supportive of diversity. 2. There is no solution to the middle east problem. Talking about it only inflames passions and gets people frustrated. Diplomacy has not succeeded in the over 60 years it has been tried; there's little reason to believe it will ever succeed. 3. The formula for peace in the ME is "land for peace." The Israelis have given up land; they have gotten not peace, as was promised, but more and more violence, and more dangerous violence at that. If I were an Israeli, I would never agree to give up land for peace again. If that is the framework, then I think there is no chance in hell that there will ever be peace. It is a failed framework, as the Arabs have shown that they will not honor it. 4. This war is not about land, if it ever was. I repeat: this war is not about land. The actions of Hamas and Hezbollah make that abundantly clear, and they also demonstrate to Israel how much more dangerous it is to withdraw from land than to just continue to occupy it. Instead, it is about Israel's existence. While there may be some on this board who respect Israel's right to exist (and I urge you to think about what it means to deligitimize Israel, since many states in the ME were created out of thin air over the past 100 years, including Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, etc.), most Arabs and Muslims do not, unfortunately. And they not only don't support Israel's right to exist, but they want to kill Jews anywhere they live. In fact, up until the late 70s, the Arabs themselves, including the Palestinians, never saw this as a conflict over land. They saw it as a conflict over the existence of Israel. The Palestinians, from the '30s until the late '70s, considered themselves Syrians, and didn't want their own state but wanted to be affiliated with Syria. Jordan was against this and did a lot to prevent it, but that's another story. The point is that this was never about land, as the Palestinians would have us all believe and has been repeated and bought into by our inane media. 5. I think it comes down to this: the Muslim world has what can only be described as an unholy, destructive fetish with respect to Israel and Jews. It's beyond even an obsession. From my perspective, it's now entered the realm of a disgusting fetish. The Muslim world seems unable to function without Israel as its whipping dog. Muslims everywhere use Israel as an excuse for their frustrations, their failed states and failed societies, and as justification of religious violence. They want Israel gone. The Islamofascists want Jews dead, not land. Until this fetish is dealt with, there will be no peace. Unfortunately, that fetish can only be cured by Muslims themselves. It is sad when I read posts from people who say the Jews should be settled elsewhere. The jews have been settled everywhere. They came from all over the world, where they were killed and abused, and were forced to leave their homes and move to a hot, mosquito-ridden, unarable land, where instead of focusing on and tryhing to kill citizens of all the nations that had abused them and killed them over the years, they built a society and an economy that is one of the most dynamic in the world. And during the same period, the Muslims (particularly the Palestinians), who could have been doing the same thing and moving on, have instead regressed, entrenched, and fomented a fetish of anti-Semitism and cults of death over a tiny piece of land in which a nation of a few million Jews is trying to have a go of it after the most devastating annihilation in our history. If the Muslims don't want Israel to exist, perhaps they'd consider carving out regions of their own countries where Jews lived for millenia before being driven out after Israel's formation in 1948. After all, if Palestinians have claims to land they've allegedly been living in for years, then shouldn't Jews have a claim on parts of Baghdad, Yemen, Morocco, Iran, Syria, etc? Let's create Jewish states in all these countries. I'm sure they won't mind giving up a little land . . . right? I think the Muslims could take a few lessons from the jews and just let it go, man. Just let it go. Move on. Build your economies and your societies. Go to work in the morning, love your kids, go to your mosques, take your wives out dancing. And stop using jews and Israel as an excuse for violence and poverty and political impotence. Clean your own houses first. Just get over it. That is all I will say. I will not post again. MIG, thank you for being one of the few reasonable folks on this board. And thanks for putting up with me. Ciao.

same old "we are being victimized [stuff]" go cure your own islamophobic fetish before you begin to label us...good riddance ...

[CrickFan]

Originally Posted by MIG Even the US Atomic bomb story has 2 sides to it - we may not agree but their is a different view. As for the Palestinians, they were dealt harshly by the Zionists in the 40s, I dont doubt that. Whether they belong to that land, well the argument goes back to the crusades so, again there are 2 points of view in this. There are other facts as well, and we should look at them before talking of Israel - the fact that Arabs dont themselves want Palestinians in their "borders" - Jordan forcibly expelled thousands in the 60s and our own Gen Zia-ul-Haque was responsible for the military task force that accomplished this with tanks (Black September) I am not being politically correct - all I want is this blind claim that " we are right " from both sides to go away - none of this helps the innocent who die every day - on both sides. More on the non Israeli side but that is another issue.

"2 point of views viz dropping of Atomic Bombs" -
Are u suggesting someone else dropped the bomb on Japan ..yeah maybe japanese themselves did it ..their population was growing too fast.

Does all the non-action and misdeeds of Arabs / Muslims have any bearing on the legitimacy of Palestinians over their own land MIG bhai ..They will have to answer for their own deeds / misdeeds to their "Creator" ..but that doesn't affect the legality of the Palestinian cause .. Even the Israeli President once admitted "off the record" that the Israeli case was too weak to stand in the court of law ..
Crusades - for your information sir was also started by Christians ...and there are no 2 point of views on that front ... It is well documented and I will be happy to share that info with you

[MIG]

The case for the A-Bomb was based around the idea of lessening US casualties and for bringing a swift end to the War in the Pacific. That was the US point of view.

I never doubt the suffering of the Palestinian Muslims but I dont like the idea that our only solution to our suffering is to inflict equal suffering on others - what would be the difference between us and the Israelis then ?

[CrickFan]

yes - that is the point of view of Americans ..who have views on everything under the sun ..they were also of the view that Saddam had WMD ...but you missed my point ..There are no 2 different point of views regarding who dropped the bomb on civilians in Japan
Sir ..I agree with you ..no one wants to see..death and destruction ..but Muslims can never inflict "equal suffering " on Jews even if they want to ..They don't have those sophisticated weapons and precision bombs ..That priviledge belongs to Israel ..
infact if you are aware ..Intifada started off as a non-violent movement ...the only weapon that the Palestininans had was stone that they used as a sling ...Suicide bombing came very late - when some Palestinians got desperate ..
Armed rebellion has always been the last resort of have nots ...throughout history ..whether it was French Revolution or Bolshevik movement ..People who have nothing to lose resort to violence ..but I repeat there is no "equal suffering" here ..Just switch on the television and you will not take long to figure that out ..

[MIG]

Bhai - I didnt miss your point - you missed mine - now that is a good example of 2 opposing views !

I agree that there is no equal suffering here but we must, as Muslims and based on the Sunnah of the Prophet(PBUH), question our apetite to inflict equal damage on others.

I dont not believe in making statements or committing actions that will result in destruction of any race - as a Muslim, I feel its against my belief. Yes, I do feel angry at what I see in Qana and the total denial of Israelis/Jews/Right wing US supporters of what they see or hear but I dont condone the tactics of Hezb namely attacking and hiding themselves within civilians.

[the Great Khan]

there is no evidence that the hezb are hiding...its not as simple as that..there were no rockets in that building in Qana..or in beirut ..they only have a range of about 13 km anyway..so attacking power stations etc in south beirut is to inflict terror nothing more....there is only one side that has overwhelming power and that is Isreal...but now i think they have faced a foe that is well trained and well motivated..Hezb fighters are native south lebanese that fight and then go back to their families..just like any natural resistance..hence why the Isrealis are attacking civilians..to the isrealis they are all Hezballah!!....also why isreal cant defeat them...for the first time since the last lebanese war Israel is facing a force that is cpable of defeating it..and after this is over the IDF wont be the same again..