Reasoning

[cinderella]

Assalam-o-alaikum,

I meant to respond in the other thread, since it's closed...

Sunni/shia? How about we reach a level where we can first say "I am a Muslim" feeling worthy enough to say it? How many of you pray namaz (which is, I believe, in whatever way, farz in all the sects, no?)?
Forget the benamazis, those of you who do pray, try to recall an incidence where from takbeer to salaam, your entire concentration was upon talking to Allah SWT.

How close are you to the kalima? The Prophet SAW for whom we're debating of, how many sunnahs of his are incorporated in your daily life?
If you have to worry, worry of the increasing promiscuity among Muslim men, the fading parda from Muslim women, the rujhan of Muslims towards all that is unislamic, the increasing disobedience of children towards their parents, the tendency for us to pick spending time with friends over spending it in namaz.

Forget Sunni/Shia, there are barelwis killing deobandis in Pakistan. What book is THAT Islam written in???

The biggest alim, biggest faseeh and baleegh, afsa hun-nas is one who "ashuduhum hurmatan le ahl-e-la ilaha illallah" (respects muslims).
The Prophet SAW didn't give bad-dua, he forgave Hamza (RA)'s qaatil, forgave people of Taif, didn't give bad-dua for destruction when he received the news that some of HIS ummah would cut his grandchild (RA)to pieces. And we, claiming to be his followers, are not even willing to accept our own fellow Muslims.

Talk to me of Islam, don't talk of sunni/shia.

Ikhtilafaat are ok, mukhalifat is not.

With ramadhan around the corner, learn to love, accept, respect, and wipe away the hatred.

JazakAllah.

[Rana]

Originally Posted by cinderella Assalam-o-alaikum, I meant to respond in the other thread, since it's closed... Sunni/shia? How about we reach a level where we can first say "I am a Muslim" feeling worthy enough to say it? How many of you pray namaz (which is, I believe, in whatever way, farz in all the sects, no?)? Forget the benamazis, those of you who do pray, try to recall an incidence where from takbeer to salaam, your entire concentration was upon talking to Allah SWT. How close are you to the kalima? The Prophet SAW for whom we're debating of, how many sunnahs of his are incorporated in your daily life? If you have to worry, worry of the increasing promiscuity among Muslim men, the fading parda from Muslim women, the rujhan of Muslims towards all that is unislamic, the increasing disobedience of children towards their parents, the tendency for us to pick spending time with friends over spending it in namaz. Forget Sunni/Shia, there are barelwis killing deobandis in Pakistan. What book is THAT Islam written in??? The biggest alim, biggest faseeh and baleegh, afsa hun-nas is one who "ashuduhum hurmatan le ahl-e-la ilaha illallah" (respects muslims). The Prophet SAW didn't give bad-dua, he forgave Hamza (RA)'s qaatil, forgave people of Taif, didn't give bad-dua for destruction when he received the news that some of HIS ummah would cut his grandchild (RA)to pieces. And we, claiming to be his followers, are not even willing to accept our own fellow Muslims. Talk to me of Islam, don't talk of sunni/shia. Ikhtilafaat are ok, mukhalifat is not. With ramadhan around the corner, learn to love, accept, respect, and wipe away the hatred. JazakAllah.

exactly, why cant we understand that a muslims account is with his allah, not maulvis!

How could we as people declare who is a non muslim! When a person says he is a muslim then thats between him and god! why are Ahmadi's known as non muslims! i admit they have different views but that doesnt mean they are not muslim, why cant we learn to accept one another as a muslim, not our sects!

[Jimmy two-times]

Originally Posted by cinderella With ramadhan around the corner, learn to love, accept, respect, and wipe away the hatred. JazakAllah.

Great post cinderella,

May allah reward you.

[z10]

this post is just like that thread, has missed the point

[kasoo10]

Here we go again!

Mods, can we put a ban on sectarian discussions in this forum. It is not healthy at all.

[RX]

I agree with Cinderella on this. Making a big deal about petty issues such as the sect or caste of another put us at shame considering the current situation we are facing each day collectively as Muslims. Even though we are labelled as terrorists by many, issues such as this make me wonder how stupid we can be. Firstly, we should focus on the major issues such as ways to help the people of iraq, or those held in captivity. Secondly, we are seen by the media to be very stupid since we already are in a bad situation in terms of Muslim suffering around the world, and then the terrorism episode, and now we are just adding to those problems.

Slightly off topic but we as Muslims are viewed very negatively by the media due to mainly the terrorist plots however also due to the issues I have mentioned above. We, in general are not very intelligent and it seems we fail to prioritise the most important issues that we face and we deal with them in absolutely the wrong ways. For example, rather than sit down, debate and scrutinise what Reid said today regarding Muslims (not that I agree with him), we saw a man literally threatening and shouting at Reid, which in effect gives us Muslims a bad name. However true his words were, this is not the way to go about things as this kind of behaviour labels us as radicals/extemists and unfortunately due to this behaviour, we are facing a difficult time here in the UK and I would imagine in other parts in the world as well.

Why can't we be more intelligent and solve matters in a more peaceful, yet effective way and educate ourselfs to become powerful figureheads in the political scene so that we can become influential and deal with the problems we are faced with more effectively, rather than focus on who Shia/Sunni and resort to violence and mass murder to portray our views.

Just look at the jews and how much power they have over virtually everything. We have to learn from them and imitate them however heartening this may seem.

[Abdul Qadir 236]

I think we should make a big deal of caste as the caste system has no place in Islam according to the Prophet saw.

[HoMeR]

Originally Posted by Rana exactly, why cant we understand that a muslims account is with his allah, not maulvis!

Agreed.

The world's full of blind-followers, so they just look upto someone who claims to 'know it all' - its true that some are truely educated (like some maulvis) - but the way they convey Islam's message may be biased/influenced by their own ethics/moods, which is why I don't listen to maulvis.

Sectarian discussions; instead of ignoring them, they SHOULD be discussed, but in an orderly manner without arguing. Instead of giving out opinions people should present logical reasons for their views, AND one should learn to LISTEN as well, which is most of our adults dont do. They either ignore the whole situation or start fighting once they cannot find an answer to a question.

[zushy_786]

Originally Posted by z10 this post is just like that thread, has missed the point

How so ?

[dude_dude]

Division begets more division.

There is no way you can divide the world into muslim and nonmuslim and leave it at that. The human mind isn't powerful enough to introduce the notion of differentiation, and only apply it in certain cases.

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

Originally Posted by cinderella Sunni/shia? How about we reach a level where we can first say "I am a Muslim" feeling worthy enough to say it?

interesting... I never was hung up on the whole Shia-Sunni thing. I was completely oblivious to the phenomenon growing up in Saudi Arabia.

however, when I went to school in Pakistan in grade 8 that's when I started to become aware of the whole sect business and the disdain everyone has for people who are different from them. I remember the hakarat people had for Shia students and this was a pretty prestigious school and one where religion was not indoctrined at all. yet the discrimination was there.

similarly, growing up in Saudi Arabia I was only aware of my Pakistani identity. didn't know that I was supposed to be a Punjabi above all. we weren't even taught to speak Punjabi. my favourite Pakistani city was Karachi (hai re Shehnaz - if you'd only waited some twenty years, we could've been so great together). the whole Punjabi versus other provinces thing was quite the revelation for me.

anyway, sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread but it was interesting to see how things worked in Pakistan when I went to school there particularly in refererence to the sects. I started to develop a healthy disdain for religious operators and thugs then and the passage of time has only reinforced my views that likes of Maulana Diesel, Qazi Hussein, Aamir Liaqat Hussein and their ilk are nothing but scum.

and that's my rant of the day...

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

Originally Posted by dude_dude Division begets more division. There is no way you can divide the world into muslim and nonmuslim and leave it at that. The human mind isn't powerful enough to introduce the notion of differentiation, and only apply it in certain cases.

haha.. brilliant. that's been at the back of mind for a long time and it is so true.

you start with the Muslims and the kuffar. then you do the Shias vs the Sunnis vs the Salafis vs the Wahabis vs the Simpsons vs the Jetsons...

the whole thing is nothing but a sham. all you need to be is a good person and for that you need some basic values which are fairly universal and common sense. the underlying principle is respect - for others. and Islam doesn't have exclusive rights to it.

I see Canadian kids and they're generally very well behaved. they come from all kinds of religious and non-religious backgrounds yet they tend to be respectful towards others. however, in the birthplace of Islam if you saw a bunch of Saudi kids walking outside together, you better run for your life because you never know what they're going to do to show their immense love for their Muslim rafeeq/brother. yup, they sure learnt a hell of a lot from their religion.

so, to me, it is obvious that Islam is the only solution and we're all doomed without it which also explains the great condition the Muslim world is in. yup lets throw out common sense and let moulvis dictate our lives. fantastic.

[Invictus]

To me the problem rises with the mentality that in order to feel good about myself I have to prove to the next guy I am better. My belief is better my country is better my team is better. Religion is such a personal thing for everyone. You will go to your grave and me to mine whats the point in demeaning someone or their belief. Its not going to make you a better muslim/person.
I think that idea the basic idea that in order to be a better muslim you have to be a better person is lost on most of us. I personally believe that if you are not a good person you cannot be, by default, a good muslim. Allah and the fellow people around you have equal rights on you. Allah might forgive for not fullfilling your duties for him but Allah wont forgive you if you dont fullfill your duties for your fellow humanbeings. Trust me calling someone kaffir does'nt fill their heart with joy.

[z10]

Originally Posted by zushy_786 How so ?

glossing over differences won't make them disappear.

[zushy_786]

Originally Posted by z10 glossing over differences won't make them disappear.

Ok well, do you think this kind of debate is unhealthy or needed ?

[z10]

Originally Posted by zushy_786 Ok well, do you think this kind of debate is unhealthy or needed ?

differences have existed in some cases for over a millenium, debating won't resolve anything.

But, there must be recognition of differences.

[cinderella]

Originally Posted by cinderella Ikhtilafaat are ok, mukhalifat is not.

.

[zushy_786]

Originally Posted by z10 differences have existed in some cases for over a millenium, debating won't resolve anything. But, there must be recognition of differences.

Ah yes, well that won't be happening anytime soon judging from the e-mullahs that will pop out and start calling anyone kaffirs for being anybody but the so called 'right' sect or school of thought...

[z10]

Originally Posted by zushy_786 Ah yes, well that won't be happening anytime soon judging from the e-mullahs that will pop out and start calling anyone kaffirs for being anybody but the so called 'right' sect or school of thought...

ofcourse they will. You can't believe in a religion and also believe that somebody else might be right. You have to believe that what you hold is the truth and the only truth, that is intrinsic in every religion and in ever sect.

However, going the opposite way and completely forgetting differences won't eradicate them. By forgetting differences what we are doing is what people have been doing all this centuries, ignoring the problem and pretending all is fine.

[zushy_786]

Originally Posted by z10 ofcourse they will. You can't believe in a religion and also believe that somebody else might be right. You have to believe that what you hold is the truth and the only truth, that is intrinsic in every religion and in ever sect. However, going the opposite way and completely forgetting differences won't eradicate them. By forgetting differences what we are doing is what people have been doing all this centuries, ignoring the problem and pretending all is fine.

Let me clarify, I meant in terms of the state of the muslim world and spefically some hard core posters in this board, where people refuse to recognize that other sects may indeed be right as well....

As for the philosophy that 'my sect is more right than yours', well I think it's a cop out...Who are you to judge who's right or not ? Lets just try to understand the differences and respect it......In the end, it's between what you beleive and Allah, and yes I do beleive that the tenants in my faith and sect are correct, but I don't go around forcing people to listen or convert them, nor did I go around telling people off for their belief systems....