Ya Ali Madad or Shirk?

[2DashingLahori]

The phrases "Ya Ali Maddad" or "Ya Muhammad Maddad" translate to "O Ali help" or "O Muhammad help". These phrases are used to call the personalities to help the caller in need. Irrespective of the personality, I am convinced that calling any dead, including prophet Muhammad (pbub) or anyone else, for help constitutes shirk and has no concept in Islam whatsoever. On the other hand, if the caller uses this phrase without actually meaning what they are saying then, although I do not know if it can be called as shirk, I still believe that it something to be avoided. God says in the Quran:

He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is God, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw. If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (shirk) (with God); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware. (Quran 35:13-14)

In the verse above (and the one that follows), Quran has clearly alluded to the fact that those that are called besides God can neither hear the call nor come to the help of those who call. Furthermore, it is told that those who call are clearly committing wrong and the word 'shirk' has been used to describe their act with God.

Say: Have you considered what you call upon besides God? Show me what they have created of the earth, or have they a share in the heavens? Bring me a book before this or traces of knowledge, if you are truthful. And who is in greater error than he who calls besides God upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call? (Quran 46-5)

In the verse above, it is said that those who call aids other than God have no basis in the scriptures and, as a result, it has no basis in the religion. The supplication that is taught to us for our daily prayers, which we recite in five daily prayers creates our direct contact with God Almighty:

Only you we worship, only you do we ask for help (Quran 1:5) The best conduct, in this regard is to call God directly to help us: And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he calls on Me. (Quran 2:186)

In the end, I will like to invite all those who use these phrases to address the issue objectively in the light of Quran.

[Somali Pirate]

Only the uneducated mention that. Hell even those who know something utter that. But that's nothing new

[2DashingLahori]

Yeah you are right. I knwo this guy at my university and he promotes who it is ok to worship graves and ask dead people for help and how saints can do miracles and what nots.

I think people take this lightly. Shirk is the highest form of sin and it is unforgiveble and people do it even though it is not thier intension but they still do it out of ignorance and no one tells them anything.

Mazars etc etc is a big problem in Pakistan and Iran is the capitol of such things.

[qasim722]

Yea i agree ,we should not utter this intentionaly.

[Team Slayer]

good post, bro.

Duaa to anyone is shirk, whether it be a rock, stone, a jinn, an angel, a wali or a messenger. The proof for this is:

Iyya ka 'nabudu, wa iyya ka nasta'een.

"You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (istayaana)."

This topic of dua'a is a fantastic topic, and I encourage all to go here: http://www.audioislam.com/?subcategory=Worship and listen to the series "Dua: the weapon of the believer".

[Big Daddy]

I am a sunni , so you wont hear me saying phrases like Ya Ali madad, but it just so happens that Ali happens to be one of God's name as well. The 99 names of God revealed to us, Ali was one of them , Ali means most high. So if someone is saying Ya Ali Madad, and he in his hearts of heart is asking for God's help, then whats the harm in it?

p.s. I am at no way condoning those ppl who ask for the help of the companion of Holy Prophet(pbuh) or holy Prophet (pbuh) himself.

[2DashingLahori]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy I am a sunni , so you wont hear me saying phrases like Ya Ali madad, but it just so happens that Ali happens to be one of God's name as well. The 99 names of God revealed to us, Ali was one of them , Ali means most high. So if someone is saying Ya Ali Madad, and he in his hearts of heart is asking for God's help, then whats the harm in it?

Yeah that is fine as it is Allah's name. However, not a lot of people use it as such. When they mention ya Ali Madad they are certainly calling Hazrat Ali and that must be prohibited.

[Team Slayer]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy I am a sunni , so you wont hear me saying phrases like Ya Ali madad, but it just so happens that Ali happens to be one of God's name as well. The 99 names of God revealed to us, Ali was one of them , Ali means most high. So if someone is saying Ya Ali Madad, and he in his hearts of heart is asking for God's help, then whats the harm in it? p.s. I am at no way condoning those ppl who ask for the help of the companion of Holy Prophet(pbuh) or holy Prophet (pbuh) himself.

one of Allah's names is Al-Ali (the Most High/Exalted), not Ali (high/exalted)...because we have people (most notably Sayyidina Ali ibn Abi Talib (RA)) named Ali.

Similarly, Al-Malik (The King) is another, but Malik (King) is not.

[HillRock]

You are the one who laments most about wahabi-ism and yet you are doing their work. It is a most discussed matter between different sects and scholars have been discussing it for centuries. If they have not agreed with each other yet, the possibility of stopping the people from uttering these phrases on this forum is almost zero.

Why people don't mind their own business?

[2DashingLahori]

Originally Posted by HillRock You are the one who laments most about wahabi-ism and yet you are doing their work. It is a most discussed matter between different sects and scholars have been discussing it for centuries. If they have not agreed with each other yet, the possibility of stopping the people from uttering these phrases on this forum is almost zero. Why people don't mind their own business?

I only lament the Taliban and Saudi's role for it. Stop including Wahabism into it. Why have not the scholars agreed with it? Because all sects have thier own hadiths. Quran is sorta like the reference book now.

If we all agree with the Quran then no one will differ. I will not ignore it if people use it widely.

[feather]

Folks lot of people tend to take things out of context and you won't find many people in this world who completely understand what the Quran is saying let alone us just reading through the Quran and picking out verses that help us spread our views on things.

I for one have never said Ya Ali Madad however I don't see much wrong with it. I have visited mazars etc...some people over due it at mazar's I am not one of those but surely I don't see anything wrong with it

[2DashingLahori]

People in Pakistan have started to ask favours from the graves and some people have even done sajdas at the graves - not accepable.

[Gujar]

Originally Posted by 2DashingLahori People in Pakistan have started to ask favours from the graves and some people have even done sajdas at the graves - not accepable.

This has been going on for a long, long time Astaghfirullah. Hindu influence i think.

[2DashingLahori]

Yeah, the people may have converted but Islam has not come in the hearts yet. However, the promotion of mazars has been widely promoted by the Persians, Sufis etc. etc.

We need a Saudi style code in Pakistan so that such activities are stopped at all costs.

[Team Slayer]

there is no difference of opinion here. dua'a to other than Allah (whether it be a rock, an idol, a wali, a messenger) is an act of shirk...its been an act of shirk since the beginning of creation and it will remain an act of shirk till the end of creation.

13. He merges the night into the day (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the night are added to the hours of the day), and He merges the day into the night (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the day are added to the hours of the night). And He has subjected the sun and the moon, each runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allâh your Lord; His is the kingdom. And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmîr (the thin membrane over the date*stone). 14. If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call, and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad ) like Him Who is the All*Knower (of each and everything).

from Surah Fatir. The brother had already quoted the ayah in the OP, but I would like to re-emphasize that this ayah, along with Surah Fatiha, should leave people with absolutely no doubts in their mind that dua'a is worship and dua'a can only be made to Allah (SWT), the ONLY One worthy of making dua'a to.

[Invictus]

Yeah I second that we need more Saudi mentality not just in Pakistan but all over the muslim world. Pursians and Sufi's have done nothing but corrupted us. Burn them at the stakes I say we should start with the SCG commandos in Pakistan though as I have seen them on T.V saying Ya Ali madad while marching.

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by Team Slayer there is no difference of opinion here. dua'a to other than Allah (whether it be a rock, an idol, a wali, a messenger) is an act of shirk...its been an act of shirk since the beginning of creation and it will remain an act of shirk till the end of creation. from Surah Fatir. The brother had already quoted the ayah in the OP, but I would like to re-emphasize that this ayah, along with Surah Fatiha, should leave people with absolutely no doubts in their mind that dua'a is worship and dua'a can only be made to Allah (SWT), the ONLY One worthy of making dua'a to.

...from Surah Fatir, who reads Surah Fatir? People have left Qura'an, that is why we are in the mess that you see us right now. Most of them don't even know that Surah Fatir exists. We have made a mockery of a decent and very broad-minded religion. Allah says that Qura'an is easy to understand. Do you know more about this book than its own Author? Qura'an is about shirk and compassion, haqooq Allah AND haqooq ul ibaad. Look around yourself and go and read Allah's book and you will find that our lives are so far from Allah's Way that I am amazed that we still have the courage to call ourselves Muslims.

[MIG]

Ya Ali Madad has always been associated with a war cry due to Hazrat Alis fame as a fighter! Nothing wrong with using the name of one of Prophet PBUHs closest people.

At the end of the day, it depends on your Niyah - if you use it to say that Hazrat Ali will somehow help, in place of ALLAH ( Nauzobillah ) you or do you use it for inspiration ?

[feather]

Originally Posted by MIG Ya Ali Madad has always been associated with a war cry due to Hazrat Alis fame as a fighter! Nothing wrong with using the name of one of Prophet PBUHs closest people.

Exactly, you'll see many people say such a thing when they take on a very tough job. Also people tend to pray to Allah but they will always mention his beloved people/messangers.

Most of the people that you see on mazar's will always be praying to Allah however they think since they are at someones mazar whos better than them...he might be loved by Allah more and maybe for his sake...Allah would grant them whatever they are looking for.

[Joseph K.]

[QUOTE=feather]

Originally Posted by MIG Ya Ali Madad has always been associated with a war cry due to Hazrat Alis fame as a fighter! Nothing wrong with using the name of one of Prophet PBUHs closest people. QUOTE]Exactly, you'll see many people say such a thing when they take on a very tough job. Also people tend to pray to Allah but they will always mention his beloved people/messangers. Most of the people that you see on mazar's will always be praying to Allah however they think since they are at someones mazar whos better than them...he might be loved by Allah more and maybe for his sake...Allah would grant them whatever they are looking for.

... and how many times Allah has said in Qura'an that Allah only looks at your doings and intentions. He does not look at what the others say on your behalf. Remember Ayat al Kursi 'Who dares approcach Him on someone else's behalf?' Still the prime motive for going to mazaar's etc is that on the day of judgement the person burried there would drop in a good word for the person who says a prayer at his grave. That ain't gonna happen!

اللَّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ لاَ تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلاَ نَوْمٌ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ مَنْ ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلاَ يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلاَّ بِمَا شَاءَ وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَلاَ يَئُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ

"Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep. His are all things In the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede In His presence except As he permitteth? He knoweth What (appeareth to His creatures As) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass Aught of his knowledge Except as He willeth. His throne doth extend Over the heavens And on earth, and He feeleth No fatigue in guarding And preserving them, For He is the Most High. The Supreme (in glory)."

Source

Not only in Ayat al Kursi but throughout Qura'ab Allah has repeatedly warned against the possibility of someone interceding on someone else's behalf.

[feather]

I would go into details but talking about religion isn't my cup of tea so please excuse me. I will stick with Ya Ali Madad for now.

[the Great Khan]

wow such a collection of Islamic scholars coming out of the woddwork..our very own al azhar!!

anyway enough of the sarcasm..its all about the intention..and the rest is with Allah swt..as Muslims we must especially now view islam as a garden with many flowers...we are in no position to be debating such trivialites while our people are under opression in many parts fo the world...freeing them from the opression of despots, occupiers and munafiques should be our primary goal..the rest of the debates can wait!!

[2DashingLahori]

If we can ask directly from Allah, why add the bridge in the middle?

Great khan yes your are right these things can wait.

Ya Allah please guide all muslims to the right path and that they read the Quran every single days of thier lives! AMeen.

[Hussain]

Originally Posted by 2DashingLahori If we can ask directly from Allah, why add the bridge in the middle? Great khan yes your are right these things can wait. Ya Allah please guide all muslims to the right path and that they read the Quran every single days of thier lives! AMeen.

i dont think so ....saying 'Ya Ali Madad' is as wrong as your posts make it out to be
its also an official slogan used by the Special Services Group (SSG) of Pakistan

had it been a shirk then I am sure MMA would have done some thing about it

[Aurangzeb]

i'm not very knowledgeable about this subject matter but i don't see anything wrong with sufism...and i'm not talking about the music, dancing, and harmonium playing kind of sufism...

[Team Slayer]

Originally Posted by MIG Ya Ali Madad has always been associated with a war cry due to Hazrat Alis fame as a fighter! Nothing wrong with using the name of one of Prophet PBUHs closest people. At the end of the day, it depends on your Niyah - if you use it to say that Hazrat Ali will somehow help, in place of ALLAH ( Nauzobillah ) you or do you use it for inspiration ?

MIG bhai, if my niyah is to please Allah (SWT) and to love RasoolAllah (SAWS)...then can I make sujood to the grave of the RasoolAllah (SAWS)? My niyah is very good.

Any act of worship is ONLY for Allah, because there is no one worthy of an act of worship except Allah (la ilaha illallah).

[Joseph K.]

knowingly calling ghair Allah for help is shirk. Whether you like it or not, most of you now know the wider implications of saying 'ya Ali madad' (Help me oh Ali)!

[HillRock]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. knowingly calling ghair Allah for help is shirk. Whether you like it or not, most of you now know the wider implications of saying 'ya Ali madad' (Help me oh Ali)!

The problem (according to you) is not only with "Ya Ali Madad". It is also alleged by people that it is shirk to say just "Ya Rasool Al Allah". The arguments over "shirk" and counter arguments of "gustakh-i-rasool" have been going on for a long time between mullahs over the loud speakers of mosques in Pakistan. Don't behave like that over here.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by MIG Ya Ali Madad has always been associated with a war cry due to Hazrat Alis fame as a fighter! Nothing wrong with using the name of one of Prophet PBUHs closest people. At the end of the day, it depends on your Niyah - if you use it to say that Hazrat Ali will somehow help, in place of ALLAH ( Nauzobillah ) you or do you use it for inspiration ?

miggy, there are no 2 ways about it. You cant call upon a person or anyone besides Allah for help and still maintain that you aint got no business with shirk. Allah says repeatedly, only ask Me for help, not the Prophet, not his companions not his wives no sufi leader no pir no sai baba.

believe me this thought process is vivid enough to leave no room for flexibility. There arnt many things that are absolute or in other words throughly black and white, and yet we do everything within us to disregard this notion.

[2DashingLahori]

Originally Posted by HillRock The problem (according to you) is not only with "Ya Ali Madad". It is also alleged by people that it is shirk to say just "Ya Rasool Al Allah". The arguments over "shirk" and counter arguments of "gustakh-i-rasool" have been going on for a long time between mullahs over the loud speakers of mosques in Pakistan. Don't behave like that over here.

We never call Ya Rasool Al Allah for help. Calling him when he was in the world was diffrent. We ask directly from Allah and that is how it should be.

One of the 10 Commandments! Do not associate any partners with me!

[zaf1986]

Fatwas of shirk are dished out all too easily these days. Most people need to understand what shirk is before they pass comment.

[Not intended at anyone particular; a general comment]

[HillRock]

Originally Posted by 2DashingLahori We never call Ya Rasool Al Allah for help. Calling him when he was in the world was diffrent. We ask directly from Allah and that is how it should. One of the 10 Commandments! Do not associate any partners with me!

Excuse me! 10 Commandments?? I thought they are for Christians.

[2DashingLahori]

Originally Posted by HillRock Excuse me! 10 Commandments?? I thought they are for Christians.

10 commandments are for all reigions and they are clearly mentioned in the Quran. I cannot believe you are actually saying this. 10 commandements were given to the JEws in the Torah and later to the Gospel and the Quran. God's rule have not changed!

[HillRock]

Originally Posted by 2DashingLahori 10 commandments are for all reigions and they are clearly mentioned in the Quran. I cannot believe you are actually saying this. 10 commandements were given to the JEws in the Torah and later to the Gospel and the Quran. God's rule have not changed!

You are mistaken, my friend. There are no ten commandments, per se, in Quran. There may be the same teachings in Quran such as "love thy neighbour" but we don't say those as commandments and neither those are limited to number ten.

[2DashingLahori]

Originally Posted by HillRock You are mistaken, my friend. There are no ten commandments, per se, in Quran. There may be the same teachings in Quran such as "love thy neighbour" but we don't say those as commandments and neither those are limited to number ten.

Of course you are right. What I meant to say was that they are stated in the Quran here and there in various forms or another. From the beginning God has prohibited us from associating any partners in worship.

17-22 Do not associate another deity with God.
47-19 Know therefore that there is no god but God.
4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth....
6-103 No visions can encompass Him, but He encompasses all visions..
42:11 There is nothing that equals (like) Him.

[Invictus]

2Dashing bahi have you heard of the word "waseela"? If you have not then look it up. The thing you are talking about works on that principle.

[MIG]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy miggy, there are no 2 ways about it. You cant call upon a person or anyone besides Allah for help and still maintain that you aint got no business with shirk. Allah says repeatedly, only ask Me for help, not the Prophet, not his companions not his wives no sufi leader no pir no sai baba. believe me this thought process is vivid enough to leave no room for flexibility. There arnt many things that are absolute or in other words throughly black and white, and yet we do everything within us to disregard this notion.

There are 2 ways about it because it the niyah behind this. When you say "Jeez" at the beginning of a sentence - you do it not because you believe Jesus was crucified but because of the emotive power of that word.

I dont use Ya Ali Madad but taking Hazrat Alis name for inspiration is, IMO, fine. Now when you start double guessing peoples intentions...there is an issue.

[Big Daddy]

I disagree, lets review it in a historical light. Hazrat Hamza was one of the better warriors of the pagan arabia. He fell in the battle of uhad. How many times did you hear Holy Prophet (pbuh) or his companions scream out Ya Hamza Madad for inspiration? after all Hamza was a more then able warrior and whats the harm in just drawing inspiration. The simple matter is , if Holy Prophet(pbuh) didnt do it, then we shouldnt as well.

The bottom line is , Ya Ali Madad is not drawing inspiration but rather its invoking his involvement. But if you want to make it a judgement call then so be it.

[Joseph K.]

I am re-reading Qura'an these days with translation (I am listening to Audio version, to be precise) and from the beginning up to the point that I have read (heard) it so far, i-e. Surah al Fath, I have found it full of emphasis on God's oneness and independence from ALL influence. Allah is above everything. Waseela for what? Can anybody imagine God being persuaded because some pious man's name is mentioned. People expect Allah to change his mind or opinion about some one? Can anybody intercede? Being Pakistani we believe in 'sifarish', even our God (naoozubillah) follows this practice.

In my younger days I used to believe that Allah loved himself too much. When I read the Old Testament in 1990. The 5th Commandment:

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

This stuck me like a bolt of lightening confirming my belief in the sef-centredness of God (naoozubillah). As I grow older and look around me and see how shirk enters our lives quietly and without our knowing of it, how, unintentionally, we start things that have lasting effects. How everthing in the universe is asking for our un-divided attention. How people get obsessed with things which change them forever. How transmogrification works, how our psychic memory lures us back to things that our forefathers once believed. All this knowledge enabled me to believe that Allah is right in His very strong stance on shirk. Shirk always tries to pollute our pure religion. The purest things are first to be polluted and Allah orders us to stay away from any such thing as will cause our pure faith in a pure God to be infected by the fascination for idols or interceding personalities etc.

[the Great Khan]

The ten commandments if they do not contradict the Quraan are valid for us too especially if they have remain unaltered..However the Quraans teachins supersede those now but they can still be seen as valid but at a lower level than the Quraan...

[Team Slayer]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. I am re-reading Qura'an these days with translation (I am listening to Audio version, to be precise) and from the beginning up to the point that I have read (heard) it so far, i-e. Surah al Fath, I have found it full of emphasis on God's oneness and independence from ALL influence. Allah is above everything. Waseela for what? Can anybody imagine God being persuaded because some pious man's name is mentioned. People expect Allah to change his mind or opinion about some one? Can anybody intercede? Being Pakistani we believe in 'sifarish', even our God (naoozubillah) follows this practice. In my younger days I used to believe that Allah loved himself too much. When I read the Old Testament in 1990. The 5th Commandment: You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, This stuck me like a bolt of lightening confirming my belief in the sef-centredness of God (naoozubillah). As I grow older and look around me and see how shirk enters our lives quietly and without our knowing of it, how, unintentionally, we start things that have lasting effects. How everthing in the universe is asking for our un-divided attention. How people get obsessed with things which change them forever. How transmogrification works, how our psychic memory lures us back to things that our forefathers once believed. All this knowledge enabled me to believe that Allah is right in His very strong stance on shirk. Shirk always tries to pollute our pure religion. The purest things are first to be polluted and Allah orders us to stay away from any such thing as will cause our pure faith in a pure God to be infected by the fascination for idols or interceding personalities etc.

well said!

[Team Slayer]

Originally Posted by MIG There are 2 ways about it because it the niyah behind this. When you say "Jeez" at the beginning of a sentence - you do it not because you believe Jesus was crucified but because of the emotive power of that word. I dont use Ya Ali Madad but taking Hazrat Alis name for inspiration is, IMO, fine. Now when you start double guessing peoples intentions...there is an issue.

so MIG, can I then make sujood to the Prophet (SAWS) grave? i have a good intention, no?

point is, any act of worship needs ikhlaas (sincerity) and confirmity to the Sunnah of RasoolAllah (SAWS). if one of the two are not present, the act of worship is unacceptable.

[MIG]

Na yaar TS - Ya Ali Madad is too weak a slogan to make my Imaan weak. Sujood to the Prophet PBUHs grave is too strong a signal

Why cant we have an intermediate stage ?

[SameerM]

if u want help, ask/pray to God

if u want guidance, follow Sunnat and read the quran.

3rd person dont need to get involved.

[Team Slayer]

Originally Posted by MIG Na yaar TS - Ya Ali Madad is too weak a slogan to make my Imaan weak. Sujood to the Prophet PBUHs grave is too strong a signal Why cant we have an intermediate stage ?

MIG bhai, dua is an act of worship, right? and sujood is an act of worship, right?

so if someone can make dua to other than Allah (SWT), that means they can also make sujood to other than Allah (SWT)! clearly you see the flaw here!

they both are haram, because any act of worship is only for Allah.

and as for slogans or figures of speech, well we have to be very careful of the words we choose to speak because RasoolAllah (SAWS) said in a hadith that the tongue will be one of the major reasons why people enter the hellfire.

[MIG]

Ok - let me try another way of saying this

Pak Army SSG guys use this to spur themselves in battle its a war cry to commemorate Hazrat Alis legendary battlefield heroics - thats all there is to it.

[Team Slayer]

Originally Posted by MIG Ok - let me try another way of saying this Pak Army SSG guys use this to spur themselves in battle its a war cry to commemorate Hazrat Alis legendary battlefield heroics - thats all there is to it.

bhai it doesnt matter whether all of Pakistan or all of the world starts chanting Ya Ali! the fact is that its wrong so its wrong, whether they do it as a war cry is irrelevant.

and btw, if our army REALLY wants to commemorate Sayyidina Ali's (RA) battlefield heroics, it'll be a good idea to ACTUALLY fight a jihad against the enemy, rather than killing your own Muslim brothers while chanting Ya Ali!

[Wazeeri]

Ya Ali Madud is clearly a cry for help not anything else. A very vast majority of Ulema including majority of the scholars from the Shia sect have spoken against invoking anyone other than Allah even as a populist slogan. So to say that the position is open to debate in not accurate.

Google graves and islam and you will see hundreds of hadiths.

'Aa'ishah and 'Abd-Allaah ibn 'Abbaas said: "When (death) approached the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), he started to cover his face with a cloak of his. When he became distressed he lifted it from his face and said, "May Allaah curse the Jews and the Christians, for they have taken the graves of their Prophets as places of worship." (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 425; Muslim, 531).

Abu Marthad al-Ghanawi said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Do not sit on graves and do not pray facing them." (Narrated by Muslim, 972).

A brother on this forum mentioned the word "wasillah" and left as if this was the end of it all. There are no ayats, hadiths or other evidence which show that a wasilah who is dead is acceptable by islam. Everytime someone has been mentioned as a wasillah with regards to dua they have been alive.

Some say that the prophet(pbuh) is alive and he can hear us, this is a long and conlcusion less argument but the peers and babas are not the prophet and they are definitely not alive. To use them as Wasilah is illogical and by all cases a shirk.

It is clear from the first to two Hadiths above that praying salat at a grave is haram other than that of Namaze Jinazah. You go to graves to pray for the dead not the other way around.

[sneekysneeky]

jahalat ki intiha... i didnt want to post in this thread but couldnt keep out... most of yall talk like you know a lot but you dont even know what "Ya Ali Madad" means... we dont ask Hazrat Ali(as) for help... it means ya Allah, i ask you by the virtue of your honored and pious slave(sentence pulled off a website)... using Hazrat Ali(as) as wasila... if you dont approve of tawassul then too bad take a hike...

[Wazeeri]

Tawassul with the dead involved?
Please sight an example of the Prophet(pbuh) or sahaba doing this.

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Tawassul with the dead involved? Please sight an example of the Prophet(pbuh) or sahaba doing this.

definition of tawassul from wikipedia... A succint definition is "Supplicating Allah by means of an intermediary, whether it be a living person, dead person, a good deed, or a name or Attribute of Allah Most High"...

[Wazeeri]

Tawassul is a word and Sheikh Wikipedia is only providing the meaning of the word not talking about the legality of all types of tawassul. Tawassul where the dead are involved has no basis in Islam.

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Tawassul is a word and Sheikh Wikipedia is only providing the meaning of the word not talking about the legality of all types of tawassul. Tawassul where the dead are involved has no basis in Islam.

ok mulla wazeeri... why dont you read a book on it... it cites quite a few examples... http://www.research.com.pk/home/fmri...ex.minhaj?id=0

[Wazeeri]

Please quote one of the many examples ss.
I am ignorant and would be grateful.
I will accept tawassul of the dead if you do.

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Please quote one of the many examples ss. I am ignorant and would be grateful. I will accept tawassul of the dead if you do.

im not into reading books so go ahead... that means i havent read it myself ;)

[2DashingLahori]

I will reply to some posts later. But guys simple question. When Allah has asked us to ask everything frmo him directly why the bridge betweem man and Allah.

We accept that Allah has all powers. We accept that nothing can be done without Allah's decree. We accept that Allah is the ultimitae controller of all things including the lives of the great Prophets.

Quran is filled with examples how our Prophets asked only Allah for help. And Prophets are our role models. And not once did any of our prophets ever invoke anything in worship or helo other then Allah. Then why do we do it. Even if we don't mean it but we should avoid it.

You might have deen this on the US Dollar. " In God We Trust" and this is true cuz in Allah we trust 100% and we leave everything upto him. Crying for help Ya Ali Madad seems valid when he was alive and when help was needed in a matter in someone's life but saying they can help even now is a thing invented later in the times!

He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is God, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw. If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (shirk) (with God); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware. (Quran 35:13-14)

We should not by all means take this lightly or find ways around it. I have every belief that asking anyone else for help is not allowed. These are basic principles of Islam. We have to get them straight! If we cannot get the pillars straight we will never get anything straight!

[Wazeeri]

im not into reading books

Then don't present them as an argument.

I have read the book and it actually provides an example of how a dead wasillah is unislamic

O people, the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) treated ‘Abbās in the same way as a child treats his father (that is, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) treated ‘Abbās as his father). He deeply respected him and fulfilled the promises made by him. O people, you should also follow the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in the case of ‘Abbās and offer him to Allah as a means of help and support so that He sends rain on you.[23]

Then ‘Abbās prayed in these words:

O Allah, calamity (and trouble) comes as a result of sin and only penitence lifts this calamity, and the people, on account of my relation with Your Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), have offered me to You as a means of seeking Your help, and these hands of ours, besmeared in sins, are before You and our foreheads are bowed down with penitence. So give us rain.

Surely Abbās isn't greater than the Prophet(pbuh) and as tawassul of those who have passed away is lawful as you say, than wouldn't it have been more intelligent to ask the Prophet(pbuh) to be the Wasillah himself rather than his uncle.

The above account isn't complete. I have left the start of the account out til last on purpose because it should prove beyond doubt that once you have passed away you cannot be a wasilah.

O Allah, we USED TO offer to You the mediation of the holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and You saturated us with rain, and now we rely on the mediation of the Prophet’s uncle, so saturate us with rain (through his mediation).

There is one account in the book where a Sahaba asked the prophet's (pbuh) grave to pray for rain and there was rain. Note how this Hadith has been declared very weak by all Muhadith and Bukhari and Muslim have rejected them completely.

There is enough evidence up here against the tawassul of the dead for us to be wary. You may not consider the evidence as proof but as tawassul of the dead or those who are alive isn't compulsary we should be careful and avoid it. If you think someone is pious than go ask them to pray for you but don't goto those who can't hear you and reply to you as this has not been done by any sahaba or the prophet(pbuh) themselves.

The good thing from this debate however is that we are all in agreement that we can't say things like "Ya Rasool please give us XYZ......" etc, So basically we are not asking the prophet(pbuh) for anything as if he was Allah (swt) nauzibillah.

[sneekysneeky]

since you like reading here is a sunni website that lists some examples...

http://www.alinaam.org.za/dhadith/qna/tawassul.htm

btw im just throwing my POV at you... i dont care if you think its wrong...

[Wazeeri]

I guess like books you are not into reading website articles as well,

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri I guess like books you are not into reading website articles as well,

;) actually i would read it but as these debates go no where why waste time...

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri I guess like books you are not into reading website articles as well,

Wazeeri, do u honestly believe you can change opinions of people over a cricket forum. If it were so easy then the line that divides the sunnis and the shias would have long been erased. I have learnt my lesson on this forum. Let these people be, you know you tried and that is the essence of it. After all its up to Allah whom He guides and whom He misguides. And those He guides no one can misguide and those He misguides no one can guide.

I would like to end this with a hadith from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) which implies something to the aspect of, "My ummah will never unanimously agree in error." With 90 percent of the muslims falling under the sunni banner, it seems as if, going on the basis of the hadiths I quoted, that the majority vote holds. But as they say, to each their own.

[Wazeeri]

SneekyS

actually i would read it but as these debates go no where why waste time...

You should read it to actually understand what the ulema are talking about and not to debate. If you don't know or don't want to know than please don't misguide others with words you have heard or article you have googled but have failed to read yourself.

[Wazeeri]

If it were so easy then the line that divides the sunnis and the shias would have long been erased.

Big Daddy

This problem is present in Sunnis as well as Shias. It is not a difference between sunnis and shias but a difference between majority of Ulema (shia and sunni) vs a minority of people who have decided not to care what islam and logic tells them.

The reason why I am arguing with these guys and the guys who reject hadiths is because I have many a times searched for subjects related to Pakistan and been directed by the search engine to debates on forums such as these. It is necessary that we argue for the sake of those who are easily lead astray.

I think if someone does happen to come on to this debate it will be plain for them to differentiate between right and wrong.

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri SneekyS You should read it to actually understand what the ulema are talking about and not to debate. If you don't know or don't want to know than please don't misguide others with words you have heard or article you have googled but have failed to read yourself.

umm ive had this tawassul debate on PP before... i read a lot then and made up my mind

[2DashingLahori]

Originally Posted by sneekysneeky umm ive had this tawassul debate on PP before... i read a lot then and made up my mind

People make thier minds on things they want to believe. If you really want to know the real thing dat ask God to give you the truth.. if you will have this thinking you will never go astray. But dont follow your beliefs, follow what God wants you to believe.

Best Regards

[Joseph K.]

Tawassal was the reason people worshipped idols. People were not stupid. They could see that idols could not move (as we can see that, being dead, Hazrat Ali can not help) but they believed that their gods were represented by idols and through idols one could reach gods. What happened at the oracle of Delphi? Greek gods and godesses spoke to people through priests and priestesses called sibyls.

Years ago I had to read some chapters of George G Fraser's The Golden Bough to understand the pagan connection with the Christian rituals. It is amazing how most of what goes by the name of Christianity now, i-e the violent death of a pure god, the return of god, Christmas, Easter, all these things can be found in the pagan religions and are basically conitnuation of those rituals. This is called transmogrification (Fraser never used this word). Old habbits don't die easily and worm their way back in our thoughtless actions. Another good book on this subject is written by a female writer, Jessie Weston, and is called From Ritual to Romance which draws a parallel between early Christian folklore of King Arthur and the pagan stories of the ailing Fisher King and shows the pagan element in early Christianity.

I think that Waseela as a concept is borrowed from Hinduism as our neighbours strongly believe in holy men, Gurus and saints etc and seek salvation through them.

BTW there is an excellent set of all 12 volumes of the 1915 edition of The Golden Bough in, of all places, Diyal Singh Library in Lahore. That must be worth a fortune as it was the first and the last un-abridged edition of this famous work. I have spent some lovely time with those books in the winter of 1991!

[zaf1986]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. I think that Waseela as a concept is borrowed from Hinduism as our neighbours strongly believe in holy men, Gurus and saints etc and seek salvation through them.

You think wrong.

O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him (waseela) and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.
-Surah Maidah, aya 35

[2DashingLahori]

Originally Posted by zaf1986 You think wrong. O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him (waseela) and strive hard in His way that you may be successful. -Surah Maidah, aya 35

The word Waseela is the bracket - meaning that the scholar himself placed it there because he probably himself believes in waseela.This is the reason why we must atleast have multiple copies of the Quran to understand the real meaning. Waseela may have a different meaning than what you are interpreting.

[5:35] O you who believe, you shall reverence GOD and seek the ways and means to Him, and strive in His cause, that you may succeed.

[5:35] O Jama’at-ul-Momineen, adhere to Allah’s Laws and try to secure a high rank in His eyes. For this you should strive hard in the cause of Allah. This is how you will be successful in your efforts.

[2DashingLahori]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. Tawassal was the reason people worshipped idols. People were not stupid. They could see that idols could not move (as we can see that, being dead, Hazrat Ali can not help) but they believed that their gods were represented by idols and through idols one could reach gods. What happened at the oracle of Delphi? Greek gods and godesses spoke to people through priests and priestesses called sibyls. Years ago I had to read some chapters of George G Fraser's The Golden Bough to understand the pagan connection with the Christian rituals. It is amazing how most of what goes by the name of Christianity now, i-e the violent death of a pure god, the return of god, Christmas, Easter, all these things can be found in the pagan religions and are basically conitnuation of those rituals. This is called transmogrification (Fraser never used this word). Old habbits don't die easily and worm their way back in our thoughtless actions. Another good book on this subject is written by a female writer, Jessie Weston, and is called From Ritual to Romance which draws a parallel between early Christian folklore of King Arthur and the pagan stories of the ailing Fisher King and shows the pagan element in early Christianity. I think that Waseela as a concept is borrowed from Hinduism as our neighbours strongly believe in holy men, Gurus and saints etc and seek salvation through them. BTW there is an excellent set of all 12 volumes of the 1915 edition of The Golden Bough in, of all places, Diyal Singh Library in Lahore. That must be worth a fortune as it was the first and the last un-abridged edition of this famous work. I have spent some lovely time with those books in the winter of 1991!

Yes and such rituals have also come into our deen as well and such things were never commanded by God nor Prophet Mohammad PBUH). The worshipping at mazars, waseefas, taweeez all concepts which were later added to Islam.

[Wazeeri]

umm ive had this tawassul debate on PP before... i read a lot then and made up my mind

Sneaky

Then please help me, I have only had this debate once on PP and I haven't got as much experience as you. Please can you show me the quotes where the dead were sought as Wasilaah.

[Wazeeri]

2Dashing

Tawasul is an islamic concept. People used to goto the Prophet(pbuh) or other respected Sahaba to ask them make Dua for them. People would use the name of good people in dua's or name of things which Allah really likes as tawasul.

There are however types of tawasul which are against islam. One of them is to ask the dead to pray to Allah for you. This is against islam because you are demonstrating that you believe that these dead have Allah like qualities. This is where we have a disagreement with a minority of muslims. This concept definitely is taken from religions other than islam.

Asking the dead for something is plain shirk and not tawassul and only the very weak among the believers would ever think of something as stupid as this.

[zaf1986]

Originally Posted by 2DashingLahori The word Waseela is the bracket

I put the bracket in because it is the actual word in the Quranic text.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ اتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَابْتَغُواْ إِلَيهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ وَجَاهِدُواْ فِي سَبِيلِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

[zaf1986]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Asking the dead for something is plain shirk and not tawassul and only the very weak among the believers would ever think of something as stupid as this.

Exactly. Those who do are obviously doing something unislamic.

But consider these verses:

And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.
-Surah Baqarah, aya 154

And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;
-Surah Aali Imran, aya 169

[Wazeeri]

That doesn't mean they can hear you or pray for you.
If that was so than the Sahaba through whom we have recieved islam would have been praying through the Prophet(pbuh) after his death.

O Allah, we USED TO offer to You the mediation of the holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and You saturated us with rain, and now we rely on the mediation of the Prophet’s uncle, so saturate us with rain (through his mediation).
O people, the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) treated ‘Abbās in the same way as a child treats his father (that is, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) treated ‘Abbās as his father). He deeply respected him and fulfilled the promises made by him. O people, you should also follow the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in the case of ‘Abbās and offer him to Allah as a means of help and support so that He sends rain on you.[23]

Then ‘Abbās prayed in these words:

O Allah, calamity (and trouble) comes as a result of sin and only penitence lifts this calamity, and the people, on account of my relation with Your Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), have offered me to You as a means of seeking Your help, and these hands of ours, besmeared in sins, are before You and our foreheads are bowed down with penitence. So give us rain.


We know that asking Allah for something directly is not wrong in anyway what so ever but asking the dead to pray for you is clearly questionable. So why not avoid it? Why are you so vigilantly defending it?

[zaf1986]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri We know that asking Allah for something directly is not wrong in anyway what so ever but asking the dead to pray for you is clearly questionable. So why not avoid it?

If they are alive, then yes they can.

I don't usually get into these debates anymore because they go nowhere.

But just some food for thought. If Allah had wanted, through his will, could have communicated directly to his servants. In his infinite wisdom, he chose to use messengers to convey his message. The reason for that was not because Allah could not communicate, but because we could not take the message directly. It only then makes sense that we use the same medium to return to Allah through the same medium.

Why are you so vigilantly defending it?

When the Qur'an defends it, who am I to oppose?

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Sneaky Then please help me, I have only had this debate once on PP and I haven't got as much experience as you. Please can you show me the quotes where the dead were sought as Wasilaah.

you know theres a great search function at the top of the page... use it...

[sneekysneeky]

Originally Posted by zaf1986 Exactly. Those who do are obviously doing something unislamic. But consider these verses: And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive. -Surah Baqarah, aya 154 And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord; -Surah Aali Imran, aya 169

yep i think it was you who posted this last time as well

[Somali Pirate]

Throughout the ages time and time again inspite of repeated warnings and lessons it seems man has an inexcusable urge to some how twist something so simple and elemental.


Allah has repeatedly said time and time again ' call unto me' Call unto me. call unto me.


Now how hard is it to understand this simple message. The first pillar in islam is the shahadah. It is the rock of the religion. But it seems people for whatever reason have a glitch stuck in their midst.

You tell me. who deserves your prayers. Allah or somebody else. Bearing in mind that all messengers from adam to noh to jesus and muhammed have called upon Allah.

Why would call on a man who has been created from dust no matter how good he is. Muhammed was a man so close to being perfect in Allah's eyes and yet he said

Narrated 'Umar: "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophets, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 654)"



Now you can use what ever metaphors you want but the question is this,

Who do you obey?Allah in the quran or the man on the street?

[Wazeeri]

It only then makes sense that we use the same medium to return to Allah through the same medium.

That is the most convoluted logic you can come up with when Allah has in various places in the Quran asked us to communicate and ask him directly.

As far as i am concerned the hadith in which Hadhrat Umar(RA) chose Hadhrat Abbas to pray for rain highlighting the fact that they used to ask the Prophet(PBUH) to do so when he was around should be the say all end all.

You are following something which is questionable and such carelessness in matters of shirk should be avoided.

[zaf1986]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri You are following something which is questionable and such carelessness in matters of shirk should be avoided.

As I said before, I've quoted Qur'an and you bring up ahadith. Secondly, its all too easy to talk about shirk, when most people don't know what the hell it is.