Ya Ali Madad or Shirk?

[Hasan]

Challo now you have moved from the ambiguous shaheed , rizk-e-hasna philisophy to hazrat Ali being ahle-bayat. Does it occur to you that in debates you have to ingrain your position before stumbling to other points?

Hardly call it stumbling given the fact that you have failed to counter any of the points that I have raised. May be realising the true nature of Quran is a new experience for you!

As regards Ahle-bayat the intended purpose was to answer your own question was to why we prefer Ahle-bayat when it comes to intercession. As regards riask-e-hasana, the issues was raised to enlighted you about who are granted this blessing and what they do with it. It was also important to establish that according to the Quran a shaheed is alive.

Now my friend I would suggest to you to not pass judgement on issues which are beyond your understanding and comprehension. Clearly you have not read or understood the Quran, and your comments in the previous post also indicates that you have failed to open up a book of hadith. And single event can be narrated by two or more individuals, and when the event is as famous as this it is bound to be narrated and recorded by many different individuals. And my doubts about your ability to follow the arguement are confirmed when you make the comment as to what I have quoted from Sunni books of hadith, well my friend, I am proving the point to you and not to myself ( however if you would like the event to be proven from Shia authorities then I can help you in that regards as well).

Next please.......

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Hasan Hardly call it stumbling given the fact that you have failed to counter any of the points that I have raised. May be realising the true nature of Quran is a new experience for you! As regards Ahle-bayat the intended purpose was to answer your own question was to why we prefer Ahle-bayat when it comes to intercession. As regards riask-e-hasana, the issues was raised to enlighted you about who are granted this blessing and what they do with it. It was also important to establish that according to the Quran a shaheed is alive. Now my friend I would suggest to you to not pass judgement on issues which are beyond your understanding and comprehension. Clearly you have not read or understood the Quran, and your comments in the previous post also indicates that you have failed to open up a book of hadith. And single event can be narrated by two or more individuals, and when the event is as famous as this it is bound to be narrated and recorded by many different individuals. And my doubts about your ability to follow the arguement are confirmed when you make the comment as to what I have quoted from Sunni books of hadith, well my friend, I am proving the point to you and not to myself ( however if you would like the event to be proven from Shia authorities then I can help you in that regards as well).

As regards Ahle-bayat the intended purpose was to answer your own question was to why we prefer Ahle-bayat when it comes to intercession.


Its amusing how selected few are granted membership in your Ahle-bayat
definition. For all you know wives are also Ahle-bayat and yet you guys seem to condemn hazrat Aisha, Abu bakr ( father in law and first adult muslim male convert), hazrat Umer, ( father in law)







Now my friend I would suggest to you to not pass judgement on issues which are beyond your understanding and comprehension. Clearly you have not read or understood the Quran


Just a pointer buddy, just a pointer. In the shia madhab, it has been observed that not a single hafiz exists. When I say hafiz, i mean the Quran and the 10 additional books you guys have. If you can really find out one person, in ur personal or professional life, please do come back and tell me and I will end my debate right there.


Lastly you mentioned of my knowledge pertaining to hadiths. Thats true, its very limited, but i did know though what books you guys consider authentic, who you denounce and what hadiths are considered sahih.

[Hasan]

Just one correction and I will end the debate here, wives of the prophet are not included in the Ahle-bayat. As per this hadith, Umma Salama (who was a wife of the Prophet) requested if she could also be included but the Prophet rejected her request. This hadith is to be found in all the great Shia and Sunni books of hadith and it confirms that Ahle-Bayat are limited to Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Fatima, Hazrat Hasan, and Hazrat Hussain.

The verse of purification "Verily Allah only desires to ... " was revealed to the Prophet (s)
in the house of his wife Umm Salama (may Allah be pleased with her); the Prophet called
al-Hasan, al-Husayn, Fatima and ‘Ali, and he gathered them together and covered them
with the mantle. Then he said, "O Allah, these are my Ahl al-Bayt, so keep away every
impurity from the Ahl al-Bayt, and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama said, "Am I with them, O Apostle of Allah?" The Prophet (s) said, "You stay in your place, and you are virtuous."


al-Tirmidhi, al-Sahih, volume 5, pages 351 and 663

al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, alMustadrak`ala al-Sahihayn, volume 2, page 416. He states
that it is sahih in accordance with the criteria of al-Bukhari

al-Suyuti, al-Durr al-Manthur, volume 5, page 197

[Wazeeri]

BTW I am still waiting for you to prove that Hazrat Ali is not a Shaheed.

Hasan

Among all the pointless things you have posted this has to be up there.
The onus of the proof is with the one who is making the claim, not the one who is questioning it. I have come across this deluded logic on this forum so many times. "Prove what I believe is wrong".

If I said that I flew around london by flapping my arms, the onus of the proof would be on me and not on you to prove that I didn't. Allah decides who is Shaheed and in the Prophet(pbuh)'s lifetime he would receive the news from Allah which would be announced to everyone. No human knows whose shahadat has been accepted since and I don't see how you can claim otherwise.

Your frustrated reasoning is clear proof that you have been proven wrong but you refuse to acnowledge it because it would mean shedding off centuries of tradition.

[Wazeeri]

Please also note how you guys in support of the phrase always stoop down to posting ayats and pretending it somehow proves something. Instead of explaining your argument when questioned you reply with, "you guys obviously don't understand the Quran".

Think about this issue sometime with an objective mind.

[tahaqureshi]

Hasan, Wazeeri is not saying that Hadhrat Ali (RA) is not shaheed and that we shouldn't have anything to do with him at all and demean his position in Islamic culture/history.

But what's disturbing is the excessive divinity/holiness/importance you place upon Hadhrat Ali (RA). Yes he was part of Hazoor's (PBUH) Ahl al-Bayt..but that doesn't mean you start asking him to intercede for you. Only The Prophet (PBUH) is worthy enough to help you.

And as you stated previously in this thread, shaheeds have the power to listen, see etc. I say thats QUITE POSSIBLY true. But nowhere in the Quran does Allah (SWT) say that Hadhrat Ali has such a high distinction that he can intercede for you. Intercession is a BIG thing, not to be taken lightly.

Apart from the Prophet (PBUH), believing in the intercession of others like pirs and other pious people who've passed away is a prime example of biddat. Including Hadhrat Ali is JUST like that.

During the 22 years that the Quran was being revealed to the people of Arabia, Allah (swt) didn't specify that Hadhrat Ali (RA) is going to be a shaheed. Yes we can argue by logic that he was, but once again..nobody really knows the truth about who is actually shaheed.

Did you know that someone who is unjustly murdered also attains a certian degree of shahdat? By your understanding, then almost all innocent people killed by murderers must be able to interced, is it not?

I don't want you to think I'm attacking you, and no I'm not an Aalim and NO I'm not stubborn in my position and I'm openly willing to change, learn and adapt. But so far your position on the issue has been quite sketchy, just to let you know.

[Hasan]

Before I continue on this dabate let me re-establish some key issues which have been confirmed from Quran and Hadith:

- A shaheed is alive
- a shaheed is granted riask-e-hasana
- those granted riask-e-hasana spend of it in the way of Allah (pass it on)
- Quran instructs us to find the best means to seek closeness to him and to invoke his blessings
- Quran specifically allows for intercession.

Now I will prove to you from Quran and Hadith (Sunni hadith) the excelled position of Hazrat Ali, and why it is perfectly correct to seek him as a intercessor.

So I will post to you a direct verse from the Quran where Allah appoints himself, the Prophet and certain excelled individuals to act as guides for Muslim. And as you will note from the supporting hadith the Quran is refering to Hazrat Ali.

But what's disturbing is the excessive divinity/holiness/importance you place upon Hadhrat Ali (RA).

The Verse of Guardianship (Wilaya):

"Only Allah is your Guardian and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while in (Ruku'). And whoever takes Allah and His Apostle and those who believe as his guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant." Holy Qur'an (5:55-56)

Zamakhshari, in his Al-Kashshaf, says the following about this verse: "It was revealed in favour of Ali (May Allah enlighten his face) when a beggar asked him (for alms) while he was in the position of Ruku' during prayer, and he gave away his ring (in the some position). It seems it was loose on his little finger, for he did not exert any effort in taking it off, which would have nullified his prayer. If you ask; How could it be in favour of Ali (May Allah be pleased with him), when the wordings are in the collective form?' I say: The form is collective, though its instigator is a single-man, because this is to encourage people to follow his example and earn a similar reward, and also to draw attention (to the fact that) the believers must be extremely mindful and benevolent, towards the poor, in as much as, if a situation could not be postponed to after the prayer, it may not be delayed till having finished it. (19)

Wahidi, in Asbab al-Nuzul', citing Kalbi's narration concerning the cause for the revelation of this verse says: "The latter part of this verse is in favour of Ali ibn Abi Talib' (May Allah be gracious to him) because he gave a ring to a beggar while in Ruku'during prayer. (20)

Besides the above mentioned scholars many other exegists and compilers of the Prophet's traditions have stated that this verse is in favour of Imam Ali and records an important event.

[Somali Pirate]

yaar hasan can you just answer this question in plain english


what do u mean when you say o ali help me?

waiting for your reply

[tahaqureshi]

Yes Hasan, please explain to me to..what exactly do you mean by "o ali help me"?

and don't give me long winded posts, just plain english like ET said.

[Wazeeri]

Hasan

Once again you have dodged the question by posting a verse from the Quran.
Where has Hadhrat Ali(Ra)'s shahadat been confirmed?

We all know that Hadhrat Ali(RA) is among the greatest of the Prophet(pbuh)'s companions. But your whole argument bases itself around the fact that the Shaheed are alive and Hadhrat Ali(RA) is a shaheed. I am still not happy with the jump in logic you have made that just because the Shaheed are alive they can hear but I am willing to accept that for arguments sake.

All you need to do is the following 2 things

1. Provide the evidence where Hadhrat Ali(RA) has had his shahadat accepted by Allah.
2. Answer to why you say Ya Ali help me, rather than Ya Ali pray for me.

Remember that if you answer back saying that Hadhrat Ali (RA) is at an exalted position and he has a special power to help us, then please explain why you went through 2 pages of debate talking about the shaheed being alive.

Please no more random ayats. Just answers to the above two.

[Amir_rulez]

Havent been following this thread for quite some time now, but looking at last few posts, I see we are actually questioning
1) shahadat of Ali
2) is Shaheed alive.

Interesting, very interesting.

[Wazeeri]

Aamir

You can't call anyone a shaheed unless you know for sure their shahadat has been accepted by Allah(swt). We can't say Hadhrat Ali(RA) is not a shaheed as well.
It's Allah(swt)'s call and we can't make it for him, just like we can't say who will go to hell or heaven.

And No one has questioned whether the Shaheed are alive I don't know which post you have read.

[Amir_rulez]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Aamir You can't call anyone a shaheed unless you know for sure their shahadat has been accepted by Allah(swt). We can't say Hadhrat Ali(RA) is not a shaheed as well. It's Allah(swt)'s call and we can't make it for him, just like we can't say who will go to hell or heaven. And No one has questioned whether the Shaheed are alive I don't know which post you have read.

Interesting. Now we need to actually define what shahadat is. Sure will. Hardly finding time these days.

However, Now that we are at it, I would like you to show me shahadat of one sahabi explicitly accepted in Quran. Badar ke abu ubaidah, uhud ke hamza, tabuk ke jafar-e-tayyar... show me one name in Quran. If not these, lets go back further. Yahya (AS) got chopped into piece. Do u take that as shahdat? If yes, present me an ayat where Allah accepted his shahadat. If no, this discussion is waste of time.
Qabeel killed Habeel (AS). Is Habeel a shaheed in your eyes? if yes, present me something u urself are asking for.

[Amir_rulez]

Generate proofs for the above, while im out for quite a while.

[Wazeeri]

Aamir

We are not out to malign Hadhrat Ali(RA) so please don't take those as my intentions. When a sahaba was martyred/shaheed the prophet(pbuh) announced his shahadat. Some sahaba who were slain in Badr and Uhud were even called the dwellers of hell fire by the Prophet(pbuh). Abu Talha's shahadat was announced by the prophet(pbuh) in At-Tirmidhi 3740, Ibn Majah 125, Ibn Hashim 2/86.

I have failed to find a quote from the net for you, the above is quoted from a biography of the Prophet(pbuh)'s life. If you find a version of Tirmidhi online please check what I have told you and let me know where you found it as well.

It is not for us to call anyone a shaheed as the decission in only up to Allah(swt) even the Prophet(pbuh) was ordered not to utter anything about the decission regarding someone's destination until he is made aware of it.

3:128

Not for you (O Muhammad) is the decision, whether he turns in mercy to them or punishes them......

It is reported that the verse was revealed when the Prophet(pbuh) during battle questioned how the people fighting him could avoid hell when they are trying to kill their own prophet(pbuh).

If the Prophet(pbuh) has to be careful in talking about Allah(swt)'s decissions than who are we to say who is a shaheed and who isn't?

And lets say for a minute that Hadhrat Ali(RA)'s shahadat has been announced and accepted than please just answer question no.2

Why say Hadhrat Ali help me, rather than Hadhrat Ali pray for me?

[Zechariah]

Shaheed is alive or not has nothing to with ya ALI Madad. YOu are calling someone else other than Allah and that is not allowed! Quite simple!

[Wazeeri]

Brilliant

The "logic" goes that they are not asking Hadhrat Ali for madud but asking him to pray for them. I have yet to see an answer for why they don't say "Ya Ali Pray for us" instead which would make more sense.

[Hasan]

Wazeeri,

What you fail to appreciate is that Quran does not name individuals but outlines the attributes of individuals who either find favour with Allah and those who do not. Your request that I should provide a verse from a Quran where Hazrat Ali's status as a shaheed reflects on your failure to understand the teaching or the nature of Quran. But if you fail to recognise that Hazrat Ali is a shaheed then that is your own failing and not that of the Quran.

However surely you cannot question the status of Imam Hussain as a shaheed, for his status as a shaheed was confirmed in the life of the Prophet, by the Prophet!!! If Imam Hussain is alive, recieving and distributing raisk-e-hasana, and the fact that Quran is encouraging me to seem intercessors to obtain the blessing of Allah, then why would it be wrong of me to say "Oh Hussain interceed on my behalf and grant me a share in the wealth which has been given to you, which you spend in the way of Allah. Oh Hussain through your rememberence and example I keep closeness to the path of Allah and his Prophet".
All that I have stated is confirmed by the Quran, that is if you have understood the true teaching of the Quran.

And just for your benefit, in case you also now question Imam Hussain status as a Shaheed, here is a very famous hadith.....

Ya Ali Madad

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anas ibn Harith narrates:

One day the Holy Prophet ascended the pulpit to deliver a sermon to his associates while Imam Husayn and Imam Hasan were sitting before him. When his address was over, he put his left hand on Imam Husayn and raising his head towards Heaven, said: "O my Lord! I am Muhammad Thy slave and Thy Prophet, and these two are the distinguished and pious members of my family who would fortify my cause after me. O my Lord! Gabriel has in- formed me that my son Husayn would be killed. O my Lord! bless my cause in recompense for Husayn's martyrdom, make him the leader of the martyrs, be Thou his helper and guardian and do not bless his murderers."

[Hasan]

YOu are calling someone else other than Allah and that is not allowed! Quite simple!

…And they do not intercede except for him whom He approves… (21:28)

Its about time you read the Quran!!!

[Hasan]

Now, some of you have argued that intercession is only limited to the Prophet and that Shia incorrectly extend the privilage to the Ahal-Bait. But this point again shows that those making this point have failed to read and understand the Quran.

For those who hold to ability to comprehend desire to reach the truth, I will post a verse relating to a very important event in the history of Islam.

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) 31 And whoso disputeth with thee concerning him, after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, say (unto him): Come! We will summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then we will pray humbly (to our Lord) and (solemnly) invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie.

This verse relates to the event when the Prophet took has Ahal-Bait to confront the Christians of Najran. The event is know as the Mubahila, where by a dispute between the Muslims and the Christians was agreed to be resolved by each party invoking the curse of Allah onto the other. At the appointed hour the Christians witnessed the Holy Prophet entering the field with Imam Hussain in his lap, Imam Hasan holding his finger, and walking beside him, Lady Fatima and followed by Imam Ali. The Holy Prophet on reaching the appointed spot stationed himself with his daughter, her two sons and her husband, raising his hands towards the heaven said : "Lord these are the People of my House"

The Chief Monk on knowing that the baby in the lap of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W. ) was his young grandson, Imam Hussain, the child walking holding the Prophet's hand was his first grandson, Imam Hasan, the Lady behind him was daughter, his only surviving issue was Fatima the mother of the two children and the one who followed the Lady was his son in law, the husband of Fatima, addressed the huge crowd of the people who had gathered on the spot, and addressed them saying "By God, I see the faces which, if they pray to God for mountains to move from their places, the mountains will immediately move ! O believers in the Jesus of Nazareth, I will tell you the truth that should ye fail to enter into some agreement with Muhammad and if these souls whom Muhammad has brought with him, curse you, ye will be wiped out of existence to the last day of the life of the earth"

Now for those who are able to comprehend, if the Ahal-Bait of the Prophet hold the power to invoke the curse of Allah, then most certainly they will also have the power to invoke the blessing of Allah. These are souls who have been purified (33:33) of all sins and of whom the Prophet said that they are from me and I am from them. These are no ordinary people, for as the above verse of the Quran, Allah does not reject their duas.

[Wazeeri]

What you fail to appreciate is that Quran does not name individuals but outlines the attributes of individuals who either find favour with Allah and those who do not. Your request that I should provide a verse from a Quran where Hazrat Ali's status as a shaheed reflects on your failure to understand the teaching or the nature of Quran.

Hasan

What you fail to do is understand a simple request. I have not asked you to provide proof from the Quran I am asking you to provide any type of proof. A hadith like the one you have presented for Hadhrat Hussain (RA).

why would it be wrong of me to say "Oh Hussain interceed on my behalf and grant me a share in the wealth which has been given to you, which you spend in the way of Allah. Oh Hussain through your rememberence and example I keep closeness to the path of Allah and his Prophet".

Again you have a problem of selective reading. Can you please explain why you don't say the above but instead of saying interceed you say help? and why for Hadhrat Ali(RA)?

And what can we see again? Risk-e-hasana?
It is clear that Allah(swt) in the ayat is speaking of people who spend all their wealth in their lifetime. But you seem to have twisted it into a magical fund that the shaheed or Ahle-Bait are holding in their graves which they have a power to grant to you.

Have you noticed how many assumptions your logic is balances on
1) Hadhrat Ali(RA)'s shahadat has been accepted by Allah. While we have no reason to believe otherwise we cannot believe this as well as it is upto Allah to judge and accept.
2) Shaheed can hear.
3) Risk-E-Hasana is a special fund which the dead can grant to others from their graves
4) Ya Ali Maddud actuallly means Hadhrat Ali(RA) intercede for me.

[Wazeeri]

Now for those who are able to comprehend, if the Ahal-Bait of the Prophet hold the power to invoke the curse of Allah, then most certainly they will also have the power to invoke the blessing of Allah.

Again more deluded logic. First of all your "surely" doesn't really hold and secondaly
Anyone can "invoke" the curse of allah(swt). Anyone can invoke the blessings of Allah(swt) this doesn't help the argument progress as no one is disputing the fact.

[Awesome Anjum]

If I may butt in:

This is simply not a matter of just 'Ya Ali Maddad'. Many muslims (incorrectly IMO), ask for help from saints such as Data Ganj Baksh, Khawaja Moinuddin, Baba Fariduddin, Khawaja Qutbuddin, Neera Mohayuddin, Nizamuddin Awliya, Naugaza, Boo Ali Qalandar, Lal Shaabaz etc.

[Wazeeri]

AA

Yes thats why keep reiterating that this is not a SUnni Vs Shia thread (No thread should be a sunni vs shia thread) but a muslim problem as a whole.


But lets give this thread up for this day of Eid,
Eid Mubarik.