Why have all the ex-cricketers lined up behind Shoaib Akhtar

[Love and Theft]

Imran, Wasim, Latif, Sohail - and probably more too. You wouldn't think that there could be ANY issue in the world where we would have such uniformity of opinion b/w our ex-cricketers - but well, in the case of Shoaib being left out, there is.

Coincidence? Nope, does't seem to be.

Do their views carry some merit? Yes, probably.

But such unanimous support. It is quite remarakable. What's going on?

[tahaqureshi]

All those who are supporting shoai right now always say BS in the media about everything

so ignore them

[Khalil]

I have no issue if Shoaib was dropped on fitness issues

If Shoaib was dropped because of Inzi's dislike for him than we have serious problems

I would rather have a disco going, whisky drinking and womanising Shoaib in the Pakistani side instead of a wicked slandering Inzi who thinks that he is holy simply because he wears that ugly beard

[DesiMD]

they all support him 4 nothing

[DesiMD]

Originally Posted by Khalil I have no issue if Shoaib was dropped on fitness issues If Shoaib was dropped because of Inzi's dislike for him than we have serious problems I would rather have a disco going, whisky drinking and womanising Shoaib in the Pakistani side instead of a wicked slandering Inzi who thinks that he is holy simply because he wears that ugly beard

hey friend....inzi is a better person than shoaib...inzi hasn't done anything bad....that would make pakistan's image drop...but shoaibb is doing that kind of stuff

[mooz]

Originally Posted by DesiMD Originally Posted by Khalil I have no issue if Shoaib was dropped on fitness issues If Shoaib was dropped because of Inzi's dislike for him than we have serious problems I would rather have a disco going, whisky drinking and womanising Shoaib in the Pakistani side instead of a wicked slandering Inzi who thinks that he is holy simply because he wears that ugly beard hey friend....inzi is a better person than shoaib...inzi hasn't done anything bad....that would make pakistan's image drop...but shoaibb is doing that kind of stuff

Actually if memory serves me right( and i am 99% sure it does ), inzi was named amongst the people who were probed by the anti-match fixing authorities. Along with wasim, waqar and Mushie.
I don't understand why people think Shoaib's partying brings shame to all of Pakistan.

[zorawar]

All the ex-cricketers including Imran have put their support behind Shoaib as they know he is out of the team for more than just fitness issues.

Imran, Wasim and the other ex-players know first hand how team politics work in Pak cricket so they are in a better situation to judge who needs their support at this point.

[AT1]

its because they dont play with shoaib on the field so they dont no his attitude but people like inzi play with him.. and people like him know him better than the ex players

[mooz]

Originally Posted by pants and trousers its because they dont play with shoaib on the field so they dont no his attitude but people like inzi play with him.. and people like him know him better than the ex players

Wasim and Rashid have played with shoaib

[AT1]

Originally Posted by mooz Originally Posted by pants and trousers its because they dont play with shoaib on the field so they dont no his attitude but people like inzi play with him.. and people like him know him better than the ex players Wasim and Rashid have played with shoaib

but not recently.. he might have had a better attitude before.. it because wasim, waqar was there.. so he didnt show an atitude problem as he wasnt classified was the best bowler .. since they retired, our bowling has become very week so he thinks he is a one man team, leding to his "horrible attitude".. know what i mean?

[Mercenary]

Sohail - talks crack and doesnt like Woolmer, also as an ex-selector he likes to the boot in the new lot when he can

Latif - likes the sound of his own voice, feels the need ot be controversial whenever he can. The backing of Moin for a short tour of the Windies is another case in point where he's 'taking on' the establishment!

Wasim - Shoaib was part of Wasim's clique when Was used to play, the famous incident before wc2003 comes to mind when Shoaib pulled out of a mtch under Waqar's captaincy only to be seen in a nightclub the same night!! Also Wasim would be a strong contender to take over as coach if Woolmer were to be sacked.

Imran - bless him. He means well but he's starting to take lessons on media relations from Sarfaraz bakwaas. He called Inzi everything under the sun after the Aussie tour and then said 'Im proud to take it all back' after the India tour. Cant seem to decide on one opinion and stick with it anymore!

[Nauman]

Well Merc Imran was not wrong in the Australian tour about Inzi, he was spineless. Inzi blames Shoaib for lack of commitment what Inzi showed in Australia was not only lack of commitment but it was also his attitude that left alot to be desired with, he pulled out of the test match when he knew that the team needed him most. Dont you think its hypocritical if Inzi one day blames Shoaib of being a coward and sitting out and a few months down the line he is doing exactly the same thing when team needed him most. He is supposed to be the captain, do you know Imran played with an injured shoulder throughout the 1992 worldcup, do you know that Imran single handidly bowled Pakistan to a test series victory in 1982/83 against India even though he was suffering from a stress fracture that was all Imran was talking about that Inzi should have shown some guts and when Inzi did that in India series Imran took his statement back.

[zorawar]

Originally Posted by Mercenary Wasim - ........ ............................ Also Wasim would be a strong contender to take over as coach if Woolmer were to be sacked.

I don't think so Merc.... The name Justice Qayyum rings a bell ?

[Mercenary]

Inzi has a well known back problem and anyone who saw the Perth test could see he was struggling and it was whilst doing service for Pakistan during the Jubilee match that Inzi aggravated the back injury and played through the pain barrier. If he had been scared of the Aussies he had the perfect excuse after the Jubilee match to pull out with a back injury but he thought he could fight through it.

Why did he return for the ODI's and slaughter the bowling? It was the same bowling wasnt it? In fact with Lee spitting fire in the ODI's the bowling was even more dangerous but Inzi returned as soon as he was fit!

As for Imran he wasnt criticizing Inzi about Shoaib or about pulling out of the tests or calling him spineless. He was saying Inzi didnt have the nuance to be an effective captain and that Younis Khan should be chosen. But after the Indian tour he changed his tune!

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by zorawar Originally Posted by Mercenary Wasim - ........ ............................ Also Wasim would be a strong contender to take over as coach if Woolmer were to be sacked. I don't think so Merc.... The name Justice Qayyum rings a bell ?

From what i remember the Justice Qayyum report 'advised' that he shouldnt be given the captaincy again. It never ordered it and also it wouldnt apply to coaching.

Unless you can show me it said something different?

[nedian21]

As for Imran he wasnt criticizing Inzi about Shoaib or about pulling out of the tests or calling him spineless. He was saying Inzi didnt have the nuance to be an effective captain and that Younis Khan should be chosen. But after the Indian tour he changed his tune!

i totally second Merc here. Imran is having double opinions these days. even before Aus tour I remember in the Jubilee Match against india he said inzi is maturing as captian. then in Aus he blasted Inzi and demanded YK and now after indian series he is back saying that inzi is getting better.

[Nauman]

Originally Posted by Mercenary Inzi has a well known back problem and anyone who saw the Perth test could see he was struggling and it was whilst doing service for Pakistan during the Jubilee match that Inzi aggravated the back injury and played through the pain barrier. If he had been scared of the Aussies he had the perfect excuse after the Jubilee match to pull out with a back injury but he thought he could fight through it. Why did he return for the ODI's and slaughter the bowling? It was the same bowling wasnt it? In fact with Lee spitting fire in the ODI's the bowling was even more dangerous but Inzi returned as soon as he was fit! As for Imran he wasnt criticizing Inzi about Shoaib or about pulling out of the tests or calling him spineless. He was saying Inzi didnt have the nuance to be an effective captain and that Younis Khan should be chosen. But after the Indian tour he changed his tune!

You can go dig old coppies of Dawn on dawn.com and it clearly statest that Imran said Inzi was spineless, we all know that batting in ODIs is no way near as difficult as it is in test matches so Inzi comming in ODIs was no surprise I am surprised as to how quickly his back got better all of a sudden. I know he was injured but he knew that Australia tour was a tough one and the team needed him that is all Imran said, he also said that Younis Khan has more grit and would be a better captain not for once did he say that Inzi should be removed as a captain as of right now.

[mooz]

Originally Posted by pants and trousers Originally Posted by mooz Originally Posted by pants and trousers its because they dont play with shoaib on the field so they dont no his attitude but people like inzi play with him.. and people like him know him better than the ex players Wasim and Rashid have played with shoaib but not recently.. he might have had a better attitude before.. it because wasim, waqar was there.. so he didnt show an atitude problem as he wasnt classified was the best bowler .. since they retired, our bowling has become very week so he thinks he is a one man team, leding to his "horrible attitude".. know what i mean?

Problem is that he IS a one man team, i have seen nothing from any bowler(save Danish) to suggest otherwise.
Shoaib's activities have always been his major criticism, even in his early days. But my contention is that when he is fit and healthy( which he may not be right now), he still is a most valuable part of this team. U don't have to go too far back to find examples of this. Even in the Australian test series, when he was fit, he was the only bowler who put Aus under pressure, and took wickets.
Obviously all of this is a moot point, since shoaib will not be journeying to WI, but i really think that shoaib has been left out because of his poor relations with Inzi. Inzi is riding high on the success of the Indian tour. Once the euphoria of our better than expected performace dies down, I think we will realize that we didn't actually WIN the test series in india. Hopefully we will finally beat the Windies and Inzi will be vindicated. But if pak fails to beat WI, I think we should all look back at Inzi's "horrible attitude" as the cause of our failure.

[Love and Theft]

It is very simplistic to say all the ex-cricketers have their own personal motives and agendas to come out in support of Shoaib. It is true that not everything that comes out of the mouth of Imran, Wasim, Latif, Sohail etc makes sense, but it is very rare that they all agree on some thing.

So clearly there is something going on here.

Let me also add that even Asif Iqbal has also criticized the way the Shoaib issue has been handled.

[Gasherbrum]

the enemy (shoaib) of your enemy (PCB) is your friend ?

[Love and Theft]

I don't think in the case of Asif Iqbal and Imran Khan, there is any enemity towards the PCB at all

Like I said, we can't just say that their backing is cause of their own personal reasons.

[Gasherbrum]

Asif Iqbal has come out and said that the PCB let him down by not coming forward to defend him during the match fixing saga when he didn't receive invitations to the jubilee game in india.

However, i agree, was just a suggestion, some of our players have been guilty of that in the past but most have legit reasons here.

[Love and Theft]

This 'personal motive' thing goes both ways. If we say that ex-cricketers have a personal motive, then we should also say that Inzi has a personal problem with Shoaib too - hence his exclusion.

I am not sure if that is the reason for Shoaib's exclusion - but why assign personal motives to some and not to others.

In this case, I do think there is atleast some merit in the unanimous support for S Akhtar.

[Farhad]

Originally Posted by Nauman Originally Posted by Mercenary Inzi has a well known back problem and anyone who saw the Perth test could see he was struggling and it was whilst doing service for Pakistan during the Jubilee match that Inzi aggravated the back injury and played through the pain barrier. If he had been scared of the Aussies he had the perfect excuse after the Jubilee match to pull out with a back injury but he thought he could fight through it. Why did he return for the ODI's and slaughter the bowling? It was the same bowling wasnt it? In fact with Lee spitting fire in the ODI's the bowling was even more dangerous but Inzi returned as soon as he was fit! As for Imran he wasnt criticizing Inzi about Shoaib or about pulling out of the tests or calling him spineless. He was saying Inzi didnt have the nuance to be an effective captain and that Younis Khan should be chosen. But after the Indian tour he changed his tune! You can go dig old coppies of Dawn on dawn.com and it clearly statest that Imran said Inzi was spineless, we all know that batting in ODIs is no way near as difficult as it is in test matches so Inzi comming in ODIs was no surprise I am surprised as to how quickly his back got better all of a sudden. I know he was injured but he knew that Australia tour was a tough one and the team needed him that is all Imran said, he also said that Younis Khan has more grit and would be a better captain not for once did he say that Inzi should be removed as a captain as of right now.

Inzamam should have played on after taking pain-killing medication even if it's true what he claimed about having back pain. That's what Imran was on about. But rather Inzi after failing horribly in Perth, sat out of the rest of the Series, leaving the youngsters to the mercy of Australians. And indeed he was called "spineless" for that.

He "annihilated" the bowling in pyjama ODIs there? Well, not a single century. averaged just below 40 against Aussies. Scored three fifties in five innings...hardly any annhilation! That is decent, but let's not get too excited and exaggerate the efforts. What was predictable though was the way he played without footwork and was nailed by McGrath for duck in the second Final after having survived a mighty close appeal the ball before.

And for those praising holy Inzi for being 100% team man and being selfless fighter, a little reminder of Qayyum Report when Inzamam was punished and handed a fine alongwith a few others in the aftermath of the findings of the Commission investigating match-fixing in Pak cricket. He had tried to stall the investigations (now we know about this pattern of shifting statements from Inzi and dissembling which he specialises in) and had been severely reprimanded by the Justice who had been exasperated. Shoaib, for all his perceived failings, is free from any such major blotch.


By the way, remember how Inzi Bhai got out in the WC'99 match V Bangladesh in Northampton? Was rather comical and dodgy the way he got lbw for a low score after having blatantly running out the in-form Saeed Anwar.....he had called for a run and then returned to his crease after coming half-way stranding the opener! At least he should have tried to make it less obvious what he was upto that day. Inzamam...the ultimate team man and selfless player.......you have got to be kidding yourselves!! Welcome to the other side of Inzi.

L&T

The only difference is that Inzy has to win matches. His head is on the chopping block. With media pundits there is no accountability. Remember these are the same guys who gave us no chance in India. Some stated this was the weakest Pakistan team ever. Sarfraz said that we should have an all pace attack at Calcutta where Kumble was the eventual matchwinner. We could go on and on.

But Inzy has to win and he obviously believes, rightly or wrongly, that he has a better chance without Shoaib in the team. We will soon know whether he has been vindicated. He was proved right when he sent Shoaib home from Oz and again in India. I for one believe that he will be proved right once again.

[Love and Theft]

One thing has to be said. This over glorification of Inzamam and constant demonization of Shoaib is very simplistic and naive.

Clearly, it is not as it one is an angel and the other is a devil.

[Farhad]

Inzamam was wrong in that by leaving Shoaib from the side V India, he was probably guilty of sacrificing a Pak Test Series win just for personal ego. As has been stated by quite a few many times here, Pak could restrict India to below 400 only once in six outings. And the Series was drawn, not won! Let's get out of pyjama cricket hang-over mode and concentrate on the real "test".

& vice versa.....

[Cartman]

Wasim would never hold any influential position in the pakistani team setup.


and by the way there is one ex cricketer who has not supported Shoaib.. Waqar.. he still believes akhtar needs to prove his fitness first before jumping back in.

and I think he is right,.

[Big Daddy]

ppl justice qayum made a recommendation , not an order . thats the differance . all in all after woolmer we mite have joker coach for a bit until we set the stage for wasim .

for the newbies , u could either watch wwe wrestling or watch pakistani cricket politics , equal value

[Love and Theft]

Originally Posted by Amoeba & vice versa.....

Agree. Obviously didn't mean to imply otherwise

[Farhad]

Originally Posted by Love and Theft One thing has to be said. This over glorification of Inzamam and constant demonization of Shoaib is very simplistic and naive. Clearly, it is not as it one is an angel and the other is a devil.

Exactly. That is what Tauqeer Zia has been mentioning in part too. Badd acha badnaam bura.

Tauqir was smiling in the interview on Geo yesterday when he said...... forget Shoaib...there are some other players in the team far more guilty of things associated with Shoaib off-the-field!

Ironically it's the perceived angel in this case who has been in the past fined in match-fixing investigations by own country's Commission, being the serious-most crime a player can commit on his team and cricket fans, and the demon has no stain as such from the saga.

One thing you have to give credit to Inzi for though. He is a very clever guy and deceives the gullible public easily...........bearded, takes the name of Allah everytime he steps up in an interview, looks so humble and innocent, whereas Shoaib...he does not hold back, does he! Calls a spade a spade.

[MIG]

Yaar Logo !!!

We have just finished a satisfactory tour of India where Inzi was the toast of the town - abhi maheena bhee nahi hua or aap sub log Inzi kay [eechay haath dho kay par gaay hain !!

Bakhso usko or Shoaib Ko - lets face it, Pakistan cricket will never be free of politics and intrigue - this isnt the fault of the game - this is how WE live ( shocking revelation bu MIG!!!)

This situation will remain ta abad ( until eternity ) so we better get used to it.

Jahan tak raha ex players ka sawal, who are these paragons of virtue that question Shoaibs inclusion ? Can someone say if any of these (bar Imran Mian) have NO axe to grind with the PCB - they are after all Pakistanis - its par for the course.

My point ? Lay off Inzi and Lay off Shoaib - they are both great servants of the game but they serve another greater force - their egos ! In a year or 2 they will sort it out or forever lock their horns - Benazir and Sharif style! For the moment, lets wish the best to whatever team we have in the WI - hope they win and keep on winning - thats all we want - personalities are unimportant.

[Love and Theft]

I think the reason Shoaib rubs many people the wrong way is cause he makes no pretense about anything. Does everything in the open. In your face. What you see is what you get.

I don't agree with all his antics but I can see why he ignites such extreme reactions.

If he was someone who was something else inside, something else outside, perhaps he wouldn't be so controversial

Farhad,

What Shoaib would or would not have done against India is pure conjecture. What is fact, though is that firstly we did a lot better than anyone expected (especially the much vaunted motley crue of pundits mentioned above). Secondly we did better in both the tests and ODI's this time around than last India series when I don't need to add that Shoaib was playing.

[Annie]

All those who are supporting shoai right now always say BS in the media about everything so ignore them

all these ex-cricketers want to show that they know it all, put in their 2 cents...and now that mgmt has taken a stand against shoaib, it is likely that these people will surface to speak against the board because they have nothing else to do...so why not back shoaib now...it has always been about politics in pak cricket and this is just a part of that...at other times, u'll see these same people speaking out against shoaib's attitude! it's all about neechay dikhana...

[Love and Theft]

Yar MIG you can't assign the "axe to grind" reason to every statement. Sure every former player has had problems with PCB, including Imran and Miandad, the two greatest Pak players. That doesn't mean they all utter rubbish all the time. I think they all do utter rubbish, but some of the time.

I also mentioned Asif Iqbal. He is pretty much above the fray so to speak.

But you are right. Politics and intrigue is always part of it, and will perhaps always will be. Human nature perhaps. Certainly human nature isn't going to change.

I am just curious as to what exactly is going on with the Shoaib issue. But then I am under no illusions about my chances of 'disovering' what is really going on

[Annie]

these ex-cricketers are just as bad as the PCB...say one thing in one instance and the complete opposite in the next instance! their reliability then is...?

as far as shoaib is concerned...he has said that he has no clue why he has been left out, whether it's because he failed to show up in front of the medical commission (because they cudn't arrange a date... ;)+ ) or because he is injured or because of his attitude...poor shoaib...clueless massoom bacha...

and we likely will not find out exactly wat is going on with the shoaib ordeal...but then that is one reason why we cannot sit here and curse inzi, bob, selectors etc. due to his being left out...there's things we just don't know and will likely never know because we don't deal with shoaib, but the above people do!

[Farhad]

Originally Posted by Amoeba Farhad, what Shoaib would or would not have done against India is pure conjecture. What is fact, though is that firstly we did a lot better than anyone expected (especially the much vaunted motley crue of pundits mentioned above). Secondly we did better in both the tests and ODI's this time around than last India series when I don't need to add that Shoaib was playing.

Yar....Well, it is conjecture, but pattern and probability would indicate the chances of Shoaib doing better than likes of Rana and Sami and Razzak were very high. The Series before in Aus, he was the only real pace bowler of substance in our side and got two fifers against the best batting line-up in the world.

We did as lot better than everyone expected...yes, but let's also ponder that we did not set the world on fire either. Indians were rather timid and pusillanimous in their approach right through and this was the ideal chance to knock them.

The last Series V India in Pak.....Shoaib bowled very well in two or three of the five Indian innings I remember. In Multan, he failed but then so did the rest of the Pak team. People generally forget that and think he was terrible right through but it is not right.

Mind you, his Test record in India has 8/118 in the only match he played there...that was in Calcutta '99....a match-winner for Pak there alongwith Anwar.

Indians dislike intense pace and indeed their experts were relieved that Shoaib was not around. where Sami was struggling in majority of the Serties to get through Kumble, I doubt if the Indian had much chance against Shoaib who it now seems was forced out of the team to accommodate the skipper's ego.

so yes, it would stay as an unfathomable point as to whether Shoaib's exclusion cost Pak a Series victory, but I believe for the above reasons, we stood a much better chance with him there as this time our batsmen were doing well unlike against Aus....and because Afridi's bowling had been such a bonus too.


MIG

Some rather excellent and pertinent points by you as usual. I hope what you are saying about the two players comes true.

[Love and Theft]

Originally Posted by Annie these ex-cricketers are just as bad as the PCB...say one thing in one instance and the complete opposite in the next instance! their reliability then is...?

Annie you mean just like the current captain, who first said Shoaib is dropped cause of discipline problems, and then later changed it to fitness.

So then the reliability is...?

[Annie]

inzi is saying wat the PCB is telling him to...and if you read the ABOVE, u will see that i have pointed that out... point is, right now inzi matters, because he is the head of this team...these other people are all 'outsiders' at this point that ain't dealing with shoaib...so they can sit there supporting him easily...and it doesn't really matter wat they say!

Farhad,

Our batsmen actually batted relatively well in Australia. Apart from Perth they crossed 300 3 times out of 4. The recovery started then. Where we pailed in comparison to the Aussies was in the inability of our bowlers to get out their tail, and similarly our tail's inability to muster any runs.

As you say Shoaib is more talented than our current bowlers but what you fail to take in is that the bowlers create pressure as a unit. These bunch of bowlers may not be immensely talented but they are tireless, disciplined and never give up. By keeping it tight and bowling no buffet balls the bowlers forced the Indians into mistakes. In the previous Indian series Shoaib would bowl a buffet ball an over. Thereby releasing any pressure. Unless you're Afridi most batters are happy to get 1 four an over.

The Indians played as they were allowed to. What this current team proved is that if you do the basics right then the Indians will make mistakes. Credit where it's due.

[Love and Theft]

My point is simple. Like I have said before, the India series showed quite clearly that our test bowling is a joke. We don't have any potential Marshall or Holding in the domestic scene. Therefore we can ill afford to play politics with the team (if that is what is going on)

[waheed]

Why have all the ex-cricketers lined up behind Shoaib Akhtar?

Who knows,
Maybe they have hidden agendas as some say poeple say and will just take the opposite view to the current management team for some more sinister hidden motive...

Maybe they just think like me, that a Fully Fit Shoaib is an asset to the Pakistan Cricket Team. We did very well in India to come away with a draw, but personally think some people are getting carried away with the success of the team in India.

There are still big areas of concern with the bowling, especially in the pace department. We were fortunate that in that series, our Batsmen were on form and able to compete with India's totals and there by giving the bowlers a chance... In the 2 Innings that the batsmen failed, One we only saved the match through an epic partnership and the other we lost.

For me the key is the batsmen, if they perform they will help to cover the obvious wicket taking weakness in our bowling with the exception Danish.
If they perform averagly or fail our bowling will be exposed for what it is and we will lose.

In the 1st innings of matches against Australia Shoaib did well and took 5 wickets, on most occaisons Pakistan batted they were dismissed cheapely within a day (90 overs), not giving the unfit Shoaib the opportunity to rest, and consequently he suffeered in the 2nd innings. He should be fit enough to bowl equally well in both innings of a test match, but if the batsmen had performed as they did on the Indian tour, it would have given him extra time to recover, and make more of an impact in the 2nd innings, that is my feeling anyway.

When we have a bowling unit that is capable of bowling the opposition out for atleast under 350, or we find a seam bowler capable of taking 4/5 wickets in an innings on a regular basis, only then can we say Pakistan should leave Shoaib out for reasons other than fitness.

Until then I think Inzy should forget his differences, and get a Fit Shoaib into the team, and Pakistan would have a higher probability of winning tests, especially if the batsmen remain in form and get the runs on the board.

No one has a Marshall or Holding in their domestic structure not even Australia. They were two of the best bowlers to ever pick up a ball in the history of this great game.

The Windies miss them, like we miss the 2W's and the Aussies will miss Pidgeon and Warne.

Shoaib is not in their class and the one thing the Indian series actually did prove is that we can perform quite adequately without Shoaib.

[Farhad]

Amoeba

When you mention Indian Series in Pak, you should also consider what Sami, Shabbir achieved there. Only Test Gul played in, he succeeded but apart from that it was a disaster. It was a catastrophic Series and Sami was the biggest bowling failure, not Shoaib. Shoaib actually bowled well in two of the three Tests. He went wicktless in Multan but bowled rather well in Lahore victory and in Pindi had Sehwag and Tendulkar both first ball before splaying the stumps of a bewildered Laxman. Then he went out injured as we know only to be wrongly accused of "faking it".

Crossing 300 against Aus is plainly not enough because they in turn regularly make scores in excess of 400 and do it in quick time too.

Our guys without Shoaib, even if they bowled as a unit, cannot be said to have dominated India. One innings below 400, that's it....the final one of the Series. apart from that, they seemed at the mercy of Sehwag and Dravid, and even Kumble.

now that they have decided to venture out without Shoaib, let's hope and pray that WI line-up would fold at least twice against spin duo and pacers and we walk away Series winners inshaAllah.

As I said the reason why the Aussies made 450 and we made closer to 300 was due to our inability to dismiss their tail and our tail's complete incompetence with the bat.

Back to the previous India series. The fact is that Shoaib was seen as our number 1 bowler not only by the opposition but also of course by himself. This means that he has added responsibility. Much like Hadlee, Kapil and Imran did he needed to carry the attack to the opposition. These bowlers would inspire the other bowlers around them to bowl better. However Shoaib didn't do that and hasn't done that throughout his career. When the going gets tough he gets going (to the dressing room). That's a big mental win for the opposition.

As for the latest Indian series I am not saying we dominated the Indian batsmen. However we never let them rack up huge scores (remember 350 is pretty much a par score on Indian tracks first time around), and Sehwag apart no one scored quickly. Compare this with Multan where Shoaib & co let India score 600 odd in 5 sessions. After that there is no comeback for the batters as there is too much pressure and time left in the game to survive.

Our current bowlers seem to prefer playing without Shoaib and he should ask himself why. Instead of complaining of lack of support if he had for one moment thought about why he wasn't able to inspire his fellow bowlers, like Hadlee, Imran or Kapil would have done, he may have got his answer.

Inshallah we will beat the Windies, but will that be enough for all the Inzy bashers? They'll just argue that this is a weak Windies team but you can only beat what's put in front of you.

I think Shoaib could well be back for the home series against England where long term fitness won't be such an issue. However a lot depends on his spell at Worcs and his performance in the Super series if selected.

[Fessal]

Originally Posted by MenInGreen Yaar Logo !!! We have just finished a satisfactory tour of India where Inzi was the toast of the town - abhi maheena bhee nahi hua or aap sub log Inzi kay [eechay haath dho kay par gaay hain !! Bakhso usko or Shoaib Ko - lets face it, Pakistan cricket will never be free of politics and intrigue - this isnt the fault of the game - this is how WE live ( shocking revelation bu MIG!!!) This situation will remain ta abad ( until eternity ) so we better get used to it. Jahan tak raha ex players ka sawal, who are these paragons of virtue that question Shoaibs inclusion ? Can someone say if any of these (bar Imran Mian) have NO axe to grind with the PCB - they are after all Pakistanis - its par for the course. My point ? Lay off Inzi and Lay off Shoaib - they are both great servants of the game but they serve another greater force - their egos ! In a year or 2 they will sort it out or forever lock their horns - Benazir and Sharif style! For the moment, lets wish the best to whatever team we have in the WI - hope they win and keep on winning - thats all we want - personalities are unimportant.

100% post of the week for me.

Like MIG said leave them both. Nobody is perfect and it usually takes 2 to tangle. Shoaib may have probs but Inzy isn't perfect either. What would be nice would be a Pakistan team free from politics, prejudice, favoritism etc and where everyone is committed, hard working, and honest.


I find it sad people here bring Inzy's beard and him beginning with Allah's name etc. What gives anyone the right to disrespect a sunnat (beard) and use that in an argument? what gives anyone right to question ones intention of reciting Allah's name??
Let's look at our self first before we question what is between one and Allah.

But such unanimous support. It is quite remarakable. What's going on?

I'd say its a case of ex-player standing up for ex-player! 2

[Fessal]

lol

[Saqlain_doosra]

Originally Posted by Khalil I have no issue if Shoaib was dropped on fitness issues If Shoaib was dropped because of Inzi's dislike for him than we have serious problems I would rather have a disco going, whisky drinking and womanising Shoaib in the Pakistani side instead of a wicked slandering Inzi who thinks that he is holy simply because he wears that ugly beard

How oculd you say things about beared? U will never change Khalil. I still remember that picture of beared man, who u called inzi and wrote things about beared and religous

[Fessal]

Khalil,

I would want shoaib in Pak side but not a disco going, whisky drinking and womanising etc. Fine he can do what he likes privatley but not during cricket series and when representing the national team. Players need to behave as they rep Pak.

About Inzy, he is no angel and he shouldnt think he's holy just because he's got a beard.

[Geordie Ahmed]

Originally Posted by Saqlain_doosra Originally Posted by Khalil I have no issue if Shoaib was dropped on fitness issues If Shoaib was dropped because of Inzi's dislike for him than we have serious problems I would rather have a disco going, whisky drinking and womanising Shoaib in the Pakistani side instead of a wicked slandering Inzi who thinks that he is holy simply because he wears that ugly beard How oculd you say things about beared? U will never change Khalil. I still remember that picture of beared man, who u called inzi and wrote things about beared and religous

Khalil has some issues that he needs to sort out - he doesnt like Inzi for whatever reason and being the ignorant person that he is, he attacks Inzi's beard! Inzi keeps the beard for himself, we are in no position to judge his intentions so i suggest Khalil u cut out the cheap shots

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

plus he is very harsh on certain african players

[Geordie Ahmed]

Originally Posted by Waqar's inswinging yorker plus he is very harsh on certain african players

Khalil is quick to attack others, is the first one to attack Musharaf for helping Bush BUT the irony in all this is that he is employed by the UN, the UN that had sanctions on Iraq which resulted in the deaths of millions of innocent children

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

OMG - khalil works for the UN?? now we are unearthing reasons as to why it is a joke of an organisation

[Geordie Ahmed]

Originally Posted by Waqar's inswinging yorker OMG - khalil works for the UN?? now we are unearthing reasons as to why it is a joke of an organisation

[Daoud]

If Musharaf is a puppet, wouldnt it make the UN a puppet too? So what would you call someone who works for a puppet organisation?

About know we hear someone saying "Im not a puppet, Im a real boy"

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

i can just imagine khalil working for the UN- he is probably reason why no action has been taken against mugabe

[Geordie Ahmed]

Khalil is doing research on Critically Endangered Flora throughout the world

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

loll

[Geordie Ahmed]

Basically he is a glorified gardener

[Daoud]

Ouch, thats harsh

[zushy_786]

Originally Posted by Geordie Ahmed Basically he is a glorified gardener

I think your'e being a little too over critical of Sohaib saab.....

[Farhad]

As I said the reason why the Aussies made 450 and we made closer to 300 was due to our inability to dismiss their tail and our tail's complete incompetence with the bat.

Gilchrist was the one anchoring the Aussie innings in the "second-half"....he is one of the premier batsmen in the world, so it can hardly be suggested that the tail started there. It was not as if we had them seven or eight down regularly in quick time for them to launch a recovery.

Back to the previous India series. The fact is that Shoaib was seen as our number 1 bowler not only by the opposition but also of course by himself. This means that he has added responsibility. Much like Hadlee, Kapil and Imran did he needed to carry the attack to the opposition. These bowlers would inspire the other bowlers around them to bowl better. However Shoaib didn't do that and hasn't done that throughout his career. When the going gets tough he gets going (to the dressing room). That's a big mental win for the opposition.

He cannot be expected to succeed in EVERY single Series. Nobody can do that. But in good majority of the Series he has played in the last two to three years, he indeed has been our leading and most effective bowler.

What is in italics up there is simply false. Shoaib knocked over SA and NZ just a couple of seasons ago and even had Aus on the ropes in Colombo with blistering spells when Pak was coming under severe pressure. Then in the famous Calcutta Test, he dealt India a killer punch by claiming 8/118 in most intense and hostile of settings on one of the biggest stages of cricket.

As for the latest Indian series I am not saying we dominated the Indian batsmen. However we never let them rack up huge scores (remember 350 is pretty much a par score on Indian tracks first time around)

How about the following India scores for the Series then (apart from the single occasion we managed to get them below 400)....Mind you, they scored well in excess of the 350 you mentioned in EVERY single first innings of the three-Test Series...

516, 85/1, 407, 407/9 dec., 449

Shoaib & co let India score 600 odd in 5 sessions. After that there is no comeback for the batters as there is too much pressure and time left in the game to survive.

That's only one Test you are going on about. And Sami alongwith Shabbir were the bigger failures, not Shoaib.

Our current bowlers seem to prefer playing without Shoaib and he should ask himself why.

Yar, we just don't know about that really. Never heard Sami or Rana or Razzak or Kaneria say they "prefer playing without Shoaib". But what we know is that Inzamam does not want him in the team.

Instead of complaining of lack of support if he had for one moment thought about why he wasn't able to inspire his fellow bowlers, like Hadlee, Imran or Kapil would have done, he may have got his answer.

The first two are all-time greats! You want him to compete now with such exceptional legends? So if he can't then he has no reason to complain about the useless support stuff he has at the other end? This speaks more of the inadequate bowling performance of Sami etc. than it does about Shoaib's "inability to inspire".

In the first Test in Aus, he had Aus struggling at 79/5, but once he was gone after lunch having bowled two spells, it was still not enough to inspire Sami and Co. to knock over the remainder lower batsmen. But then Sami is a 40-averaging phenomenon and hardly anyone who can be inspired. Has to be said though that the latter was indeed inspired by Shoaib's 100 mph speed records rather and he himself then strove to emulate that resulting in awful over-pitched and wayward stuff that he has been bowling in the past in his quest for speed.

Inshallah we will beat the Windies, but will that be enough for all the Inzy bashers? They'll just argue that this is a weak Windies team but you can only beat what's put in front of you.

InshaAllah, we will. but would that be ground-breaking or mark a watershed? Look what ignominous record WI has been carrying in the last six years. What have they done in the last three years or so apart from being whipping boys of international cricket alongwith Bangla and Zim?

Mind you, Inzamam won't even be participating in the First Test even though he has already claimed, "If I win...". Their bowling is full of mediocrity and lacks good variety or bite. Only their batting can salvage some pride, and maybe earn them a Drawn Series.

Originally Posted by Farhad Yar....Well, it is conjecture, but pattern and probability would indicate the chances of Shoaib doing better than likes of Rana and Sami and Razzak were very high.

conjecture??? pattern and probability?? this is beyond desperate! 2

do you know what else "pattern" and "probability" suggest? they suggest the Indian batting lineup is the best in the world. one which you called "right for the picking/knocking(??)". pattern and probability suggest beating India in India is the toughest feat in world cricket, something you call "not setting the world on fire". like I said...getting pretty desperate here.

Originally Posted by Farhad Indians dislike intense pace and indeed their experts were relieved that Shoaib was not around.

we werent there to bowl to their "experts" now were we! 2 2

and the Indians didnt seem to mind "express pace" in the world cup when they thrashed our "crown jewel the hulk" around like a 5 year old. they didnt mind it last year in Pakistan when Sehwag scored a 300 againt a "fit and firing" shoaib. so I suggest you keep your pattern and conjecture to yourself. it simply goes to show how little you have left to present in defense of your so called megastar. ;)+

[Farhad]

do you know what else "pattern" and "probability" suggest? they suggest the Indian batting lineup is the best in the world.

Typical rubbish. Actually, it is Australian batting line-up which is the best in the world. You want to prove otherwise? You want to contest that further?

pattern and probability suggest beating India in India is the toughest feat in world cricket,

Oh, really? So did we beat India then in the Test Series? Do come out of cloud cuckoo land. We won a single Test there. And what about playing Australia Downunder? Isn't that a touch more difficult in your opinion.......same place where your mega-star scored a single run in the Test Series and had life-threatening back spasms after McGrath and Kasprowicz showed him up in the First Test.

and the Indians didnt seem to mind "express pace" in the world cup when they thrashed our "crown jewel the hulk" around like a 5 year old.

This is the argument of a 5 year-old really who can't differentiate between a single one-day match and a Test Series set-up!! BTW Remember Waqar in that match too? Hmm.....Talking of WC, how much did your "greatest-ever skipper of PAk" score in the entire tournament, eh? 20-odd runs or was it 30 in all in seven or eight innings?

they didnt mind it last year in Pakistan when Sehwag scored a 300 againt a "fit and firing" shoaib.

Enlighten us further! So Sehwag scored 300 against Shoaib, not against PAkistan! I guess Sami and Shabbir were bowling maidens after maidens there really for Shoaib to have conceded 300 by himself! And what about Pindi Test when Sehwag was taken for a golden duck by Shoaib? What about Calcutta '99 when Shoaib smashed Indians with 8/118 including consecutive yorkers to dismiss Dravid and Tendulkar?

You really should try to control the flow of inaccurate and misguided peripheral and insignificant points you have regarding Pak cricket.

it simply goes to show how little you have left to present in defense of your so called megastar.

Lo behold! Surely you gave such solid and incontrovertible points above then! Each and every point by you on Inzi and Shoaib has been thrashed and beaten up many a times on this Forum just like in the last post and you have the naivete and temerity to declare otherwise. I guess Japan won the Second World War and Iraq smashed America in '91 Gulf War going by the sanity of your claim to have won any arguments!! 2 2 ;)+ [/quote]

[Farhad]

Originally Posted by waheed Why have all the ex-cricketers lined up behind Shoaib Akhtar? Who knows, Maybe they have hidden agendas as some say poeple say and will just take the opposite view to the current management team for some more sinister hidden motive... Maybe they just think like me, that a Fully Fit Shoaib is an asset to the Pakistan Cricket Team. We did very well in India to come away with a draw, but personally think some people are getting carried away with the success of the team in India. There are still big areas of concern with the bowling, especially in the pace department. We were fortunate that in that series, our Batsmen were on form and able to compete with India's totals and there by giving the bowlers a chance... In the 2 Innings that the batsmen failed, One we only saved the match through an epic partnership and the other we lost. For me the key is the batsmen, if they perform they will help to cover the obvious wicket taking weakness in our bowling with the exception Danish. If they perform averagly or fail our bowling will be exposed for what it is and we will lose. In the 1st innings of matches against Australia Shoaib did well and took 5 wickets, on most occaisons Pakistan batted they were dismissed cheapely within a day (90 overs), not giving the unfit Shoaib the opportunity to rest, and consequently he suffeered in the 2nd innings. He should be fit enough to bowl equally well in both innings of a test match, but if the batsmen had performed as they did on the Indian tour, it would have given him extra time to recover, and make more of an impact in the 2nd innings, that is my feeling anyway. When we have a bowling unit that is capable of bowling the opposition out for atleast under 350, or we find a seam bowler capable of taking 4/5 wickets in an innings on a regular basis, only then can we say Pakistan should leave Shoaib out for reasons other than fitness. Until then I think Inzy should forget his differences, and get a Fit Shoaib into the team, and Pakistan would have a higher probability of winning tests, especially if the batsmen remain in form and get the runs on the board.

Brilliant! ;)+

[zushy_786]

Farhad Bhai,

We all know atys is a little on the slow side to understand, and he himeself doesn't know what he means by writing meaningless posts, so lets just bygones be bygones.......

[Master-P]

haha Thats a bit harsh.

[Farhad]

Originally Posted by zushy_786 Farhad Bhai, We all know atys is a little on the slow side to understand, and he himeself doesn't know what he means by writing meaningless posts, so lets just bygones be bygones.......

Point noted and taken on board, Zushy! ;)+

I don't know why I had to reply to the peanuts of misguided erratic and false so-called arguments that he again filled in another of his regular posts. Things like "Beating India in India is biggest achievement" (yeah it is, isn't it and we did beat India by drawing the Series!), "Indian batting line-up best in world" (rofl!), Inzamam greatest-ever Pak skipper (say what!!), Sehwag scored 300 against Shoaib (wow, he must have scored 700 odd in that inngs then!) etc etc......Really I need to concentrate on other more important stuff than to beat into pulp such startling and inane points which are hardly read by anyone else it seems and just there to provide comical value! :-W

Gotta go now!

[nadeem]

Hmmmm

Originally Posted by nadeem why have all the ex cricketers lined up BEHIND Akhtar? I can think of only one reason

lol!!

although the mods on this board seem to have a different sense of humor so this might not sit too well with them.

[zaf1986]

If having the 5 of the top 6 averaging over 50 doesn't constitute the best lineup I don't know what does.

Originally Posted by Farhad Typical rubbish. Actually, it is Australian batting line-up which is the best in the world. You want to prove otherwise? You want to contest that further?

typical rubbish? really?? why dont we contest this further. this should be fun! this time you cant even delete my posts like you used to!

the Indian batting lineup, as suggested by "pattern and probability", is the best in the world...by far! you want to know why? I will post the complete stats in my next post.

Originally Posted by Farhad And what about playing Australia Downunder? Isn't that a touch more difficult in your opinion.......

Yes, Farhad, beating India IN India is the toughest feat in world cricket. India have lost only 1 test series at home in the last 16 years! read that again...1 series in the last 16 years. australia, on the other hand, have lost 3 series at home to India alone!!! 1 to srilanka and there must be more that I cant remember right now. so YES, beating India IN India is the toughest feat in world cricket as indicated by "pattern and probability"!!

and before you go jumping around claiming we never won the series, no we didnt. but we did win a test, and while this is not the ultimate achievement by any means, it is something to be proud of! and your suggestion that it isnt is an insult to Pakistan cricket and shows just the kind of fan you are.

Originally Posted by Farhad This is the argument of a 5 year-old really who can't differentiate between a single one-day match and a Test Series set-up!! BTW Remember Waqar in that match too? Hmm.....Talking of WC, how much did your "greatest-ever skipper of PAk" score in the entire tournament, eh? 20-odd runs or was it 30 in all in seven or eight innings? Enlighten us further! So Sehwag scored 300 against Shoaib, not against PAkistan! I guess Sami and Shabbir were bowling maidens after maidens there really for Shoaib to have conceded 300 by himself! And what about Pindi Test when Sehwag was taken for a golden duck by Shoaib? What about Calcutta '99 when Shoaib smashed Indians with 8/118 including consecutive yorkers to dismiss Dravid and Tendulkar?

5 year old? nice! first of all, we're not talking about Waqar and we're not talking about Inzi. if you want to discuss their performance we can do so in another thread. here, we are only talking about shoaib. and you bringing up other people's records shows how desparate you are to defend him.

Yes, Sehwag scored the runs against the Pakistan team. and Yes, Sami and other bowlers were as responsible as shoaib if not more. I will be the last person to blame a defeat or any bad performance on a single player alone. but the FACT remains, that shoaib WAS in the lineup. he WAS bowling with pace, and THAT pace did NOT disturb sehwag.

does that register at all? No? let me break this down for you Mr. 5-year-old...you claimed that Indians dislike intense pace. you didnt say tests, you didnt say ODI's, you simply stated indians dislike intense pace. the pace was the same in the world cup, the pace was the same in the last away series againt Pakistan. yet they seemed to like it just fine. the fact that the same pace disturbs them sometimes and not at other times unequivocally proves that it is not the pace alone that matters but there are OTHER reasons which you simply missed. again, lack of cricketing knowledge and nothing else.

SO, your contention that Shoaib would have done well in this series because of PACE, is rubbish, its rot, its startling, its inane, its conjecture and provides nothing BUT comical value!

Originally Posted by Farhad "Indian batting line-up best in world" (rofl!),

I will compare the Indian lineup to only the australian batting lineup here...

player Mat I NO Runs Ave
sehwag 34 56 1 3079 55.98
gambhir 8 13 1 486 40.50
dravid 89 151 18 7696 57.86
tendulkar 123 198 21 10134 57.25
ganguly 82 133 12 4949 40.90
laxman 64 103 11 3961 43.05
karthik 8 11 0 243 22.09
pathan 13 16 2 275 19.64
kumble 95 122 26 1645 17.13
balaji 8 9 0 51 5.66
harbhajan 45 64 11 731 13.79

index innings not-outs runs average

total 876 103 33523 43.36

player Mat I NO Runs Ave

hayden 67 117 10 5721 53.46
langer 88 150 8 6607 46.52
ponting 88 143 20 6950 56.50
martyn 56 89 12 3947 51.25
clarke 12 17 1 669 41.81
gilchrist 68 97 17 4452 55.65
katich 16 26 3 1010 43.91
gillespie 66 84 26 940 16.20
kasprowicz 33 46 10 379 10.52
warne 123 169 15 2518 16.35
mcgrath 109 120 42 556 7.12

index innings not-outs runs average
total 1058 164 33749 37.75

note that the indian lineup, compared to the aussies, is unexperienced and some of their players have not yet had a chance to cement their place in international cricket as the aussies have. note also the great advantage the aussies have with their wicket keeper being perhaps the best batting-keeper in cricket history, yet there is no contest.

if youre done "rolling on the floor laughing", get up and read these stats. a difference of 5.5 points!!! its NOT EVEN CLOSE.

SO once again, your contention that the Indian batting lineup is NOT the best in the world was inane, it was startling, it was rubbish, it was rot and provided nothing BUT comical value. laugh about that!

[Farhad]

Your confused and muddled self-contradictory replies are not worth wasting time on. How about that, sonny!

[Ayubi]

Originally Posted by appeal till you squeal Originally Posted by Farhad "Indian batting line-up best in world" (rofl!), I will compare the Indian lineup to only the australian batting lineup here... player Mat I NO Runs Ave sehwag 34 56 1 3079 55.98 gambhir 8 13 1 486 40.50 dravid 89 151 18 7696 57.86 tendulkar 123 198 21 10134 57.25 ganguly 82 133 12 4949 40.90 laxman 64 103 11 3961 43.05 karthik 8 11 0 243 22.09 pathan 13 16 2 275 19.64 kumble 95 122 26 1645 17.13 balaji 8 9 0 51 5.66 harbhajan 45 64 11 731 13.79 index innings not-outs runs average total 876 103 33523 43.36 player Mat I NO Runs Ave hayden 67 117 10 5721 53.46 langer 88 150 8 6607 46.52 ponting 88 143 20 6950 56.50 martyn 56 89 12 3947 51.25 clarke 12 17 1 669 41.81 gilchrist 68 97 17 4452 55.65 katich 16 26 3 1010 43.91 gillespie 66 84 26 940 16.20 kasprowicz 33 46 10 379 10.52 warne 123 169 15 2518 16.35 mcgrath 109 120 42 556 7.12 index innings not-outs runs average total 1058 164 33749 37.75 note that the indian lineup, compared to the aussies, is unexperienced and some of their players have not yet had a chance to cement their place in international cricket as the aussies have. note also the great advantage the aussies have with their wicket keeper being perhaps the best batting-keeper in cricket history, yet there is no contest. if youre done "rolling on the floor laughing", get up and read these stats. a difference of 5.5 points!!! its NOT EVEN CLOSE. SO once again, your contention that the Indian batting lineup is NOT the best in the world was inane, it was startling, it was rubbish, it was rot and provided nothing BUT comical value. laugh about that!

So stats tell us the whole story do they? Where in your comparing batting averages of individual batsmen does it show which line up is more likely to collapse?

[MIG]

ATYS Bhai - thora sa ziyada boll gaay hain app !! ( Bura na manna - just m,y 2 cents )

I am not stats guru and know even less about cricket but , Indian lineup better than Australians ?

Incredible....but then you seem to have answer to everything so I wont argue further.

[Big Daddy]

miggy bhai
how about that , my show stealing line , my 2 cents , and u steal it without copyright
this rainbow center mentality has to go man ... stop piracy