Christmas - Celebrate it or not? (merged)

[Saj]

I remember, as kids my brother, me and my sister would look forward to christmas as my parents would put up a tree in the house and we'd get presents. It was an exciting time of the year, good tv to watch, 2 weeks off school and visits to and from relatives.

I must admit that with my kids we put up a Christmas tree and we give them some presents at this time of year, very much like we do at Eid.

Are we wrong as Muslims to "partially celebrate" Christmas and give our children presents and put up a Christmas tree in our house?

Your thoughts?

[Oxy]

Absolutely NOT.

Its hard enough trying to stop my kids sending cards to their class mates - but Ive relented on that.

We arent Christians - why would we want to emulate one of their festivals (which isnt even really a Christian celebration!)

First Bollywood - now Christmas....anything else we should know about you?

Xmas is a depressing time - traffic meltdown...busy shops...people buying on credit stuff they spend 12 months paying off.

[kablooee87]

A big no from me.

Christmas is a Christian holiday. If not that then it is a hallmark holiday. Both of which I have no interest in celebrating.

I don't' mind wishing merry Christmas to a friend who celebrates it. I don't mind going to the office Christmas party. But I certainly won't partake in the whole christmas tree and presents bit.

Saj if you ask me, yes, I do believe it's wrong for Muslims to "partially celebrate" Christmas.

[kablooee87]

Originally Posted by Oxy First Bollywood - now Christmas....anything else we should know about you?

You forgot about the lottery.

[Geordie Ahmed]

I dont. Tho i do enjoy christmas cos they show cr@ppy movies and it reminds me of when i was a kid. Also we always used to go to town to see the Christmas display in the fenwicks windows, very exciting and insha'allah when i have kids of my own i wudnt hesitate in taking them to see the display and send cards, BUT thats as far as it would go

[The Godfather]

well no really i think Muslims should not celebrate Xmas simply due to the fact it is for the Christians not for Muslims. You don't really see or hear christians celebrating Eid do you know because they know that it is a Muslim function

[punjabi]

Originally Posted by Haroon Yasin well no really i think Muslims should not celebrate Xmas simply due to the fact it is for the Christians not for Muslims. You don't really see or hear christians celebrating Eid do you know because they know that it is a Muslim function

some non-muslims send my family cards at eid

does that mean they are celebrating eid?

no, it's called being civil

[kablooee87]

Originally Posted by punjabi some non-muslims send my family cards at eid does that mean they are celebrating eid? no, it's called being civil

I agree.

Like I said, wishing others Merry Christmas is fine. Heck, lots of people wish me Happy Mubarak who aren't Muslims. They are being courteous and respectful. But they don't go ahead and celebrate Eid themselves (not that they should).

[tmac4real]

I think Christmas has transcended Christians and it just a mainstream holiday now.

I mean the "original" Christmas is nothing about giving presents or Santa Claus.

Same with the Christmas tree. Santa Claus, presents, the tree (not so sure about the tree), have nothing to do with the original Christmas holiday.

It's just the spirit.

Going to church on christmas day/eve whatever is different though.

[Luton Bad Boy]

Put simply:

Christians celebrate Christmas as a rememberance of after all one of our prophets, Prophet Isa (SAW) so in that aspect we could use it as a way of rememberance too.

However, celebration is a little over-board for me personally, I am all for being courteous and wishing workers 'Happy Christmas & New Year' and even buy them cards, just to stay civil and I receive cards even though they do know I dont celebrate Christmas but is sent out of sheer courtesy and happiness so that must be respected.

Christmas, New Year, Valentines, Anniversaries, Birthdays have all gone too commercial and become monotonous as you 'age'...ask Oxy. So I would pretty much agree with those that they keep it civil but, not celebrate it.

[Oxy]

Originally Posted by punjabi some non-muslims send my family cards at eid does that mean they are celebrating eid? no, it's called being civil

No one was being 'uncivil'!

Sending cards for any festival - for any religion is just a superficial gesture - quite harmless really.

My neighbours send me Christmas cards - if I am not in Pak over Xmas (which I have for the last 4-5 since 2000), I send one back.

But having a Christmas tree - and giving kids Xmas presents? You must be having a laugh!

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Haroon Yasin well no really i think Muslims should not celebrate Xmas simply due to the fact it is for the Christians not for Muslims. You don't really see or hear christians celebrating Eid do you know because they know that it is a Muslim function

They probably do in Pakistan and India. The celebration doesn't mean that you go to church or mosque. The regular celebration really doesn't have much to do with religion be it Eid or Christmas as prayers are not involved most of the time. It is mostly about enjoying, meeting with people and some cases paying ($$$)

[Saj]

guys just a reminder, I dont go around singing Christmas carols, go to Midnight mass, or decorate the house with huge inflatable santas and lights

[punjabi]

Originally Posted by Oxy But having a Christmas tree - and giving kids Xmas presents? You must be having a laugh!

well we never had a tree, even as kids but my old man always used to decorate the shop at xmass time, the punters loved it

[Luton Bad Boy]

Originally Posted by Saj guys just a reminder, I dont go around singing Christmas carols, go to Midnight mass, or decorate the house with huge inflatable santas and lights

Thanks for clearing that up, there was me thinking you also went into Santa's Grotto and sat on Santa's lap and asked him for a new server for PP.

[Oxy]

Originally Posted by 12thMan They probably do in Pakistan and India. The celebration doesn't mean that you go to church or mosque. The regular celebration really doesn't have much to do with religion be it Eid or Christmas as prayers are not involved most of the time. It is mostly about enjoying, meeting with people and some cases paying ($$$)

Ive never seen Muslims celebrating Xmas in PAk - Ive been there for at least 4 or 5 in the last 7 years.

Pakistani Christians celebrate it - with style - but for everyone else its 'business as usual' - I mean last year my wifes sister was getting married on Xmas day - and her brother is getting married on the 26th this year.

[Oxy]

Originally Posted by punjabi well we never had a tree, even as kids but my old man always used to decorate the shop at xmass time, the punters loved it

That was a commercial gesture - Pakistanis would celebrate Jewish festivals if it meant an extra buck or 2!

[Pak_cricketer]

BUT, we do believe in Jesus as our prophet.

[Wazeeri]

My dad liked to put a tree in our window until I made a remark about it. Now the plastic 1 foot tree is gathering dust in the loft. Dressing up a tree is not a xtian ritual anyway, some Xtians misread the bible and associated this practice with worship. It is a pagan ritual. Thought to be practiced by tree worshippers.

It is however really important that we are civil towards the non muslims in the UK. There is a hatred brewing between the communities which could spill into bloodshed some time in the future. It is therefore really important that we are civil towards each other and build relationships at every opportunity.

[Wazeeri]

BUT, we do believe in Jesus as our prophet.

Our Jesus(pbuh) is a prophet, if christmas is about celebrating the birth of the prophet than there is not much problem in that but Christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of God, Nauzu billah. It is a festival of Shirk.

It is better to wish people happy holidays than christmas

[lodge_boy]

Originally Posted by kablooee87 You forgot about the lottery.

[punjabi]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Our Jesus(pbuh) is a prophet, if christmas is about celebrating the birth of the prophet than there is not much problem in that but Christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of God, Nauzu billah. It is a festival of Shirk. It is better to wish people happy holidays than christmas

i think even the staunchest christian would concede that it is no longer anything at all to do with celebrating the birth of the prophet or even elebrating the birth of the son of God

fact is, it is the continuation of pre-christain winter festivities

[lodge_boy]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Our Jesus(pbuh) is a prophet, if christmas is about celebrating the birth of the prophet than there is not much problem in that but Christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of God, Nauzu billah. It is a festival of Shirk. It is better to wish people happy holidays than christmas

Yeah u are right, as a muslim i don't celebrate christmas, and i think it is wrong for muslims to celebrate christmas!!!

[Wazeeri]

i think even the staunchest christian would concede that it is no longer anything at all to do with celebrating the birth of the prophet or even elebrating the birth of the son of God

I would like to see a staunch Christian say anything other than the nativity story.

[faisalm]

Originally Posted by Oxy Ive never seen Muslims celebrating Xmas in PAk - Ive been there for at least 4 or 5 in the last 7 years.

Well nobody really celebrates Christmas in the summer

[Oxy]

Originally Posted by faisalm Well nobody really celebrates Christmas in the summer

December is winter in Pakistan.....and its COLD!!!!

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Oxy Ive never seen Muslims celebrating Xmas in PAk - Ive been there for at least 4 or 5 in the last 7 years. Pakistani Christians celebrate it - with style - but for everyone else its 'business as usual' - I mean last year my wifes sister was getting married on Xmas day - and her brother is getting married on the 26th this year.

And they would have been if in Pakistan XMas was a major holiday, if it was advertiszed on TV and Christians were not a small minority. I only knew 1 Christian (meaning a friend) in Pakistan . So who are you going to celebrate with? Muslims who are looking for the off day and a party? I think the day off in Paksitan is probably for birth of Quaid-e-Azam and not Christmas

[Daoud]

Originally Posted by faisalm Well nobody really celebrates Christmas in the summer

Not quite. Christmas here IS during the summer.

I never really celebrated Christmas growing up as a kid. I remember going to some parties when I was younger. Think I got a present from my parents once but that was because the compound had organised something and there was a Santa giving stuff out. But that was when I was 6 or 7 and havent done anything since then apart from the occasional giving and receiving of cards.

[Saj]

Saj Scrooge has just announced at home that Christmas is cancelled in our household this year

[Hash]

In England I always go for Christmas lunch at a friend's place. They invite me and I go.

Now that I'm in Pakistan, I don't know what will happen.

[the Great Khan]

no surprise but i believe its a pagan celebration and wont celebrate although I do give chocolates to my english neighbours both on christmas and eid...oh and a card for them too..

[sehsan]

Originally Posted by Saj Saj Scrooge has just announced at home that Christmas is cancelled in our household this year

Good to hear that . Wishing chrismas to friend would be ok but i dont think we should put the tree and give gifts to kids on chrismas.

[tmac4real]

Originally Posted by Saj Saj Scrooge has just announced at home that Christmas is cancelled in our household this year

why man? Dont listen to these guys just do what you want to do.

Anyways atleast Christmas here in the US for non-Christians is all about getting into the spirit of the holidays, then actual religion.

[Underworld57]

Originally Posted by faisalm Well nobody really celebrates Christmas in the summer

ya they do..

[Zinnia]

Oh man saj ur poor kids!!
Seriouslsy when i was a kid and i was like the only kid in the house at that time we used to put a tree up and i used 2 get lots of presents and go and see santa. It was a kiddy thing to doo but i was also told we arent christian either. But then for a few years id say we didnt put one up cos well i grew up and no one else really cared but last 2 years we have had one up, and we have called it an EID tree for my neices and nephews cos well end of the day its decoration and well it looks nice and i love the smell of the tree. But they dont get presents (hahaha not as lucky as me) but neighbours do, and we make turkey well cos thats the only time of the year the halal butchers have them.
I dont see an issue with putting a tree up u can say its part of british culture not religeon its not really a christian country. Besides christmas time when its cold and hopefully snowing seems lovely and eid is round about the same time too.
Saj i think if ur kids want a tree let them have it after a while they will grow out of it just make sure u say to them we are doing this cos we live in the country and its their holiday but this doesnt make us christian/pagan and stuff. I mean if we start having mulled wine then yeah we are becoming unislamic or making a glazed harm but putting a tree up shouldnt be an issue. Besides the pine trees smell nice!!

[isr]

Originally Posted by Saj I remember, as kids my brother, me and my sister would look forward to christmas as my parents would put up a tree in the house and we'd get presents. It was an exciting time of the year, good tv to watch, 2 weeks off school and visits to and from relatives. I must admit that with my kids we put up a Christmas tree and we give them some presents at this time of year, very much like we do at Eid. Are we wrong as Muslims to "partially celebrate" Christmas and give our children presents and put up a Christmas tree in our house? Your thoughts?

As someone who has grown up in a staunchly Catholic country (Ireland), allow me to give my $0.02.

Respecting the religious traditions of others IS a good thing. We would even give presents to close family friends (we wouldn't accept them, but we would get Eid presents from them).

However, because of how Christianity has a history of incorporating openly pagan symbols into their rituals and traditions, we always need to be a little careful. For example:

the Christmas tree (and Mistletoe)- an openly pagan tradition. I personally am against this one. I would never have one in my house, period (but that doesn't stop me taking my girls to check out some of the colourful setups in the mall - hope I'm not being too hypocritical here...)

Santa Claus: not pagan in origin (so ok in my book), but certainly nothing to do with Christianity either (actually - its from Viking lore, originating from when the captain of the ship, fresh from his raping, plundering and looting across Europe, would finally sail home before the fjords froze shut, and then rode his reindeer driven sled home, laden with booty).

presents: he who is against presents, is a boring old sod! The more, the better

Basically, respecting the religious traditions of others, without compromising our convictions - is the way to go (isn't it always).

[Somali Pirate]

You've got to be kidding me.Christmas trees? The hell. I usually give and recieve cards to my non muslim friends. That's about it.

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by isr As someone who has grown up in a staunchly Catholic country (Ireland), allow me to give my $0.02. Respecting the religious traditions of others IS a good thing. We would even give presents to close family friends (we wouldn't accept them, but we would get Eid presents from them). However, because of how Christianity has a history of incorporating openly pagan symbols into their rituals and traditions, we always need to be a little careful. For example: the Christmas tree (and Mistletoe)- an openly pagan tradition. I personally am against this one. I would never have one in my house, period (but that doesn't stop me taking my girls to check out some of the colourful setups in the mall - hope I'm not being too hypocritical here...) Santa Claus: not pagan in origin (so ok in my book), but certainly nothing to do with Christianity either (actually - its from Viking lore, originating from when the captain of the ship, fresh from his raping, plundering and looting across Europe, would finally sail home before the fjords froze shut, and then rode his reindeer driven sled home, laden with booty). presents: he who is against presents, is a boring old sod! The more, the better Basically, respecting the religious traditions of others, without compromising our convictions - is the way to go (isn't it always).

Way to go bro. First we respect their religion then we find faults in their faith! Pagan this pagan that. Don't be upset when they find the pagan roots of crescent and star or the relationship between Amin, Amen and Amon Ra!!!

I don't celebrate Christmas but I don't look down upon it either. This is their faith and we have no right to judge it. Paganism can be found beneath any faith.

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

man don't people ever get tired of bickering over such trivial things? get a tree if you want. don't get a tree if you don't. celebrate along if you want. don't celebrate if you don't. wish others if you want, don't if you think it goes against your religion somehow. is everything really that complicated?

personally, my celebration is limited to wishing coworkers. the PC thing is to say Happy Holidays to not "offend" the non-Christians. so I make it a point to wish my Christian colleagues Merry Christmas. we're all people after all. I know it always makes me feel good when someone acknowledges or recognizes Eid, etc. so when others are nice enough to share your joy, the least we can do is do the same for them.

[tmac4real]

Originally Posted by Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar man don't people ever get tired of bickering over such trivial things? get a tree if you want. don't get a tree if you don't. celebrate along if you want. don't celebrate if you don't. wish others if you want, don't if you think it goes against your religion somehow. is everything really that complicated? personally, my celebration is limited to wishing coworkers. the PC thing is to say Happy Holidays to not "offend" the non-Christians. so I make it a point to wish my Christian colleagues Merry Christmas. we're all people after all. I know it always makes me feel good when someone acknowledges or recognizes Eid, etc. so when others are nice enough to share your joy, the least we can do is do the same for them.

amen (whoops).

[isr]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. Way to go bro. First we respect their religion then we find faults in their faith! Pagan this pagan that. Don't be upset when they find the pagan roots of crescent and star or the relationship between Amin, Amen and Amon Ra!!! I don't celebrate Christmas but I don't look down upon it either. This is their faith and we have no right to judge it. Paganism can be found beneath any faith.

Oh grow up. At no point am I trying to belittle Christianity. There is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING in what I said above which any of my JESUIT (err, Christian, right?) masters at school would have objected to.

Its a simple fact that there are many pagan rituals and traditions incorporated into Christianity. Most of this was done as the Catholic Church was attempting to branch out into Western and Northern Europe (hence a lot of these pagan traditions come from Norse and Germanic cultures).

Something which any Catholic priest (or at least the many that I knew) would readily attest to.

So why are your knickers getting into a twist?

My point was simple. Christianity is a monotheistic faith, and one Muslims are OBLIGED to respect. Just be careful what is Christianity, and what is of pagan origin and LATER dragged into Christian tradition (many centuries later).

PS: "Amon Ra" was a short-lived Egyptian attempt at monotheism, not paganism or polytheism. Nice try though ...

[isr]

Why do I get dragged into arguments with all the knuckleheads on this forum? Even on lighthearted threads like this one. Do I have a sign on my back, or something?

[punjabi]

Originally Posted by Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar the PC thing is to say Happy Holidays to not "offend" the non-Christians.

what a crazy world we live in we cant say happy christmass becaue non-christinas may be offended

spot on post mutaaal.....

all this ethical posturing about wether or not to send someone a christamss card or have a tree

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by isr Oh grow up. At no point am I trying to belittle Christianity. There is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING in what I said above which any of my JESUIT (err, Christian, right?) masters at school would have objected to. Its a simple fact that there are many pagan rituals and traditions incorporated into Christianity. Most of this was done as the Catholic Church was attempting to branch out into Western and Northern Europe (hence a lot of these pagan traditions come from Norse and Germanic cultures). Something which any Catholic priest (or at least the many that I knew) would readily attest to. So why are your knickers getting into a twist? My point was simple. Christianity is a monotheistic faith, and one Muslims are OBLIGED to respect. Just be careful what is Christianity, and what is of pagan origin and LATER dragged into Christian tradition (many centuries later). PS: "Amon Ra" was a short-lived Egyptian attempt at monotheism, not paganism or polytheism. Nice try though ...

This is the tone, boy, this is in the tone. Nobody is contesting the fact that there are pagan elements in Christianity, nothing new there but then there are pagan elements in other religions that their followers choose to turn a blind eye to. Don't judge other people's faith and nobody will judge yours. We all know what those Catholic priests 'teach' little boys but this is their fault, not a fault of their religion! Live and let live.

[foojam]

Originally Posted by isr As someone who has grown up in a staunchly Catholic country (Ireland), allow me to give my $0.02. Respecting the religious traditions of others IS a good thing. We would even give presents to close family friends (we wouldn't accept them, but we would get Eid presents from them). However, because of how Christianity has a history of incorporating openly pagan symbols into their rituals and traditions, we always need to be a little careful. For example: the Christmas tree (and Mistletoe)- an openly pagan tradition. I personally am against this one. I would never have one in my house, period (but that doesn't stop me taking my girls to check out some of the colourful setups in the mall - hope I'm not being too hypocritical here...) Santa Claus: not pagan in origin (so ok in my book), but certainly nothing to do with Christianity either (actually - its from Viking lore, originating from when the captain of the ship, fresh from his raping, plundering and looting across Europe, would finally sail home before the fjords froze shut, and then rode his reindeer driven sled home, laden with booty). presents: he who is against presents, is a boring old sod! The more, the better Basically, respecting the religious traditions of others, without compromising our convictions - is the way to go (isn't it always).

why would u need to be a little careful??

[jusarrived]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. This is the tone, boy, this is in the tone. Nobody is contesting the fact that there are pagan elements in Christianity, nothing new there but then there are pagan elements in other religions that their followers choose to turn a blind eye on. Don't judge other people's faith and nobody will judge yours. We all know what those Catholic priests 'teach' little boys but this is their fault, not a fault of their religion! Live and let live.

well said ........ why such simple things are difficult to understand for some ppl ?

I was quite impressed after reading saj's post ....especially the Christmas tree thing ........we don really celebrate other relegion festivals , but my mom does make sweets & we have a familly gettogether be it on diwali christmas ir Eid ...most muslims & christians here celabrate hindu festivals like diwali & holi .... nuthing wrong with it IMO !

[dblock]

I do find that Christmas is celebrated more widely than just Christians, most people like it as a festival and the Christian significance of it isn't the motivation for all, it's just a time of which marks the ending of the year and people take time off work, study, spend with the family and try to be good to each other, I don't see any reason why people would object to that. As long as you can accept and understand the religious interpretation of the festival, then it's not really an issue and if you should participate with activities, cards, gifts, parties as much as you think you are comfortable with.

[isr]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. This is the tone, boy, this is in the tone.

Ok, I'm tired of getting into arguments on this forum, so I'm going to let that pass. Once. Don't EVER make the mistake of thinking you can call me "boy" again.

Nobody is contesting the fact that there are pagan elements in Christianity, nothing new there but then there are pagan elements in other religions that their followers choose to turn a blind eye to. Don't judge other people's faith and nobody will judge yours.

This thread was not about judging Christianity. You seem hell-bent on turning it into that.

What this thread is about is : what elements of Christmas are potentially uncomfortable for a Muslim to be involved with (err, poorly worded).

SO IT IS ENTIRELY TO THE POINT THAT WE MENTION WHAT ELEMENTS OF CHRISTMAS HAVE NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS OR ORIGINAL CHRISTIANITY.

If someone wants to make choice, let them make an informed choice. Even priests have no issue's discussing this - what the heck is your problem? You'd rather we all live in ignorance instead?

We all know what those Catholic priests 'teach' little boys but this is their fault, not a fault of their religion! Live and let live.

Absolutely pathetic.

With only a couple of rare exceptions, most of the Catholic priests I knew, from our local parish priest in Ballyhaunis, to our Jesuits prefects in Clongowes, were damn fine men. You know damn all about them, so cut out the petty little jibes.

Takes a pretty selfless minded individual to even consider becoming ordained as priest, in todays world.

[Zeenix]

Its Ok to be goodie goody, but celebrating one of the religious festivals is a bit OTT, specially when kids are in question. Already the environment you guys live doesn't help in supporting Islamic values, by celebrating their festivals one further smudges the line. I believe that people living in countries which doesn't support their faiths need to be more protective of their legitimate religious values, because the ground realities are different.

[waqar_ahmad]

Got better things to do than celebrating christmas. I hate it when muslims celebrate christmas, and their kids talk abt santa all the time.

[tmac4real]

Originally Posted by waqar_ahmad Got better things to do than celebrating christmas. I hate it when muslims celebrate christmas, and their kids talk abt santa all the time.

yeah santa is really harmful.

[Oxy]

Originally Posted by tmac4real yeah santa is really harmful.

Isnt he just a promotional tool for Coca Cola?

[tmac4real]

Originally Posted by Oxy Seriously - The 'read santa' is all to do with promoting Coca Cola going back 100 years... Originally Santa was 'green'. I'm sure we covered this in Marketing some years back.....

again, nothing to do with Christianity...so don't see why it would be harmful to have a tree w/presents etc.

If your going to church then ur giving the wrong idea (even though I'm pretty tolerant, i've been to a temple, mosque, church etc but I can see where people are coming from with THIS)

[Gonzo]

Santa Claus originates from the Germanic god Odin (looks kinda like Gandalf), who would hold a great party every winter solstice at the festival of Yule, and rewarded the children who fed his horse Sleipnir with gifts. When the Germanic tribes were christianised, Yule was turned into Christmas and Odin was turned into a Bishop called Saint Nicholas. Dutch immigrants brought the tradition over to the US, and the Dutch name for Saint Nicholas (Sinterklass) was corrupted into Santa Claus.

While Coca-Cola didn't invent the current version of Santa Claus, it was popularised in their massive advertising campaign in the 20's.

On the subject of celebrating christmas as a muslim, I wouldn't see anything wrong with it as it's largely a secular holiday these days. I can't imagine it violating your faith unless you worship Jesus.

[Kashif]

For me Christmas is about avoiding shopping in town, recording the odd decent programme on Sky + (used to be my VCR), receiving xmas cards from colleagues at work, attending/avoiding dept and company xmas do's.

Do not celebrate it but will participate to some extent in the whole mela since you cannot avoid it.

[majid786]

i dont celebrate christmas

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by majid786 i dont celebrate christmas

so when your friends invite you to a party (or gathering) or company has a XMas party, you don't go? Most of these (for me) don't involve taking presents and nothing religeous happen. There will be quite a bit of alcohol there though but that is normal for most parties XMas or not. I haven't been to some traditional or old people party where they might sing.

[Super Misbah]

i think as muslims we are perfectly right to Partially celebrate christmas , always an exciting prospect , nice lighting , great movies , a great time of the year

[Robert]

I'm not a Christian by faith, but by culture. I celebrate Christmas because it's gone back to being what is was before the Christians came to these islands - a great big feast and celebration to welcome the return of the Sun.

What about you?

[MIG]

Depends on what you mean by celebrate - if its just limited to wishing Merry Xmas to your non Muslim friends , why not ? All it gains you is goodwill - doesnt mean that you believe in it or are denying Islam !

Frankly speaking, I am more worried about Muslims picking up the worse aspects of Xmas ie the material part ( shopping etc) and applying that to Eid!

[hussain_0216]

Muslims shoudl never celebrate the religious festivals of any other religion, they contradict our faith..

But I agree christmas is more Pagan then christian.....

Jesus was not born on Dec 25,,, this date is close to the pagan winter solstice and was adopted by christians to celebrate christmas, when europeans began to become christian.

The christmad tree is also a Pagan icon, the "ever green" tree's which remain green throughout the winter were bought into the home by Pagans because they represented life, which would return in the spring when the tree's would be chucked out..

then there are other things which have nothing to do with christianity, Santa Clause, Turkey Dinners, Red Robins, christmad cards the list is endless and they are there from commericalism to just additional cultural traditions being added onto christmas



Having said all that, we should wish christians and whoever a Happy Christmas, if they celebrate it

[Hash]

We've been invited by a Christian collegue to a Christmas dinner tonight in Islamabad. Will definitely be going.

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by Robert I'm not a Christian by faith, but by culture. I celebrate Christmas because it's gone back to being what is was before the Christians came to these islands - a great big feast and celebration to welcome the return of the Sun. What about you?

It depends what exactly is meant by 'celebrate'. One December 25th, went with a youngers sister to her Pakistani Christian friend's Christmas day celebrations, which involved us going to church. Didn't hear anything that was offensive, the vicar (is that the right term?) talked about lots of things including Alexander the Great's jaunt into India.

I place lights up, around the windows and there's tinsel, place looks good, see nothing wrong in that, Eid is near too. Send Christmas cards (not to known Muslims, obviously). On Christmas day, it's a sister's fiance's birthday so we'll cook roast and have a party. If this is 'celebrating' Christmas, then I do.

[hussain_0216]

You would

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 Muslims shoudl never celebrate the religious festivals of any other religion,

Why not? Wouldn't it foster understanding and tolerance? Would we not wish to enjoin non-Muslim friends into our Eid celebrations, so that they may learn what these festivities are, their origin?

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 You would

Because I'm more tolerant than you?

[hussain_0216]

Whats wrong with you,,,

The whoal point about islam is that we have a set of beleifs defined by God in the Quran,,, the celebrations of other religions is not acceptable, we can wish them the best in whatever they are celebrating, but partaking in their religious festivals (like you going to church on christmas day is seriously screwed up)....

Your not more tolarant then me, you just know nothing about your faith,,,

[dblock]

edit..double post.

[dblock]

Muslims shoudl never celebrate the religious festivals of any other religion, they contradict our faith..

I don't think anyone is asking Muslims or any other faiths to celebrate the 'religous' aspects of Christmas at all, that is for each respective religion, no on is asking people to go the church, sing hymns about Jesus etc...

Sending a Christmas card or even a present to colleagues and friends is being part of the 'celebration' but doesn't mean you are a Christan, don't be so narrow minded.

It is really hypocritical when a few of us Muslims ask people of other faiths to show a lot of tolerance of our religion (some do, some don't) and then we go out of our way to stop people celebrating theirs. I know that things like 'objecting to Christmas decorations' is not really a Muslim thing per se, like some newspapers have said but I know that it does happen.

[hussain_0216]

Thats what I said wish them the best by all means, I even have no real problem with giving them a christmas card or something as a sign of friendship/respect. Just dont partake in their religious events...

I think going to christmas lunch or going to church like filosofee does falls into that category

[Sufyan!]

noooooooooooo dont be silly we got eid coming man!

[Robert]

Originally Posted by filosofee It depends what exactly is meant by 'celebrate'. One December 25th, went with a youngers sister to her Pakistani Christian friend's Christmas day celebrations, which involved us going to church. Didn't hear anything that was offensive, the vicar (is that the right term?) talked about lots of things including Alexander the Great's jaunt into India. I place lights up, around the windows and there's tinsel, place looks good, see nothing wrong in that, Eid is near too. Send Christmas cards (not to known Muslims, obviously). On Christmas day, it's a sister's fiance's birthday so we'll cook roast and have a party. If this is 'celebrating' Christmas, then I do.

Nice bit of interfaith communication there filo!

Protestant Church ranking:
----------------------------------
Curate, Vicar, Bishop, Archbishop
(some denominations also have Deacons and Archdeacons)

Catholic Church ranking:
-------------------------------
Priest, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, Pope.

. Priest is the term for a Catholic leader. Then there are Bishops and cardinals

[dblock]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 Whats wrong with you,,, The whoal point about islam is that we have a set of beleifs defined by God in the Quran,,, the celebrations of other religions is not acceptable, we can wish them the best in whatever they are celebrating, but partaking in their religious festivals (like you going to church on christmas day is seriously screwed up).... Your not more tolarant then me, you just know nothing about your faith,,,

Just going to a church doesn't mean anything, it's a place or religious worship, if one knows the tennets of Islam and has understanding of Christianity it may well improve the understanding of your own faith aswell as improve relation and goodwill.

Going to a place of religious worship e.g a Church, (although admittedly I would feel out of place going on Christmas day), isn't going to harm your religion and if it is then maybe you don't have a strong enough belief in your religion that you think you do. Surely then you should step foot in a bank which lends interest or buy from a shop which alcohol etc.. basically leading to an impossible position for many people. So instead show a little wisdom and flexibility like Filosofee has done and there is no harm.

Otherwise when Eid comes around be prepared to accept all non-muslims showing little to no allowance to celebrate it.

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 Whats wrong with you,,,,,,

You mean what's right with me! Did not offend by refusing to join my younger sister to attend church when she was invited by her friend, a Pakistani Christian.

If a Christian or Jewish, or Buddhist, or Zen-following lady were invited to join Eid celebrations with us and refused on your grounds, what would your verdict be? No doubt that they are intolerant.

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 The whoal point about islam is that we have a set of beleifs defined by God in the Quran,,, the celebrations of other religions is not acceptable, we can wish them the best in whatever they are celebrating, but partaking in their religious festivals (like you going to church on christmas day is seriously screwed up).... Your not more tolarant then me, you just know nothing about your faith,,,

Disagree. You show little understanding for humanity.

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 Thats what I said wish them the best by all means, I even have no real problem with giving them a christmas card or something as a sign of friendship/respect. Just dont partake in their religious events... I think going to christmas lunch or going to church like filosofee does falls into that category

Frankly? Who cares what you think! Any Christians on board PP - Pakistani or otherwise? I've no plans, yet, for the day after Boxing Day, so, if you want to invite me for dinner ..............

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by Robert Protestant Church ranking: ---------------------------------- Curate, Vicar, Bishop, Archbishop (some denominations also have Deacons and Archdeacons) Catholic Church ranking: ------------------------------- Priest, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, Pope. . Priest is the term for a Catholic leader. Then there are Bishops and cardinals

Thank you for the information.

[hussain_0216]

The reality is you know nothing of your faith...
the general concensus here is that there is no problem with wishing the christians a happy christmas or sending a christmad card or even generally enjoying the razzmatazz of a highly commercialised event...

BUt there is something seriously wrong with going to church on christmas day, do you throw paint over your mother on Holi and sacrifice a virgin to fit in with the satanists and not let them feel excluded from your love in.

Understanding of humanity has nothing to do with it, adhearing to your faith is the issue, if you ever read the quran it would show you, that you are commiting haram.

[Momo]

The no-nonsense (islamic) answer to this is: Muslims dont "celebrate" any day, atleast they shouldnt. No birthdays, no wedding anniverseries, no death anniversaries, and by extension, no Christmas. Eid too, is not about "celebrating" but is about observing. Observing means being thankful to Allah and making sure nobody around is in trouble etc. Its not about burning candles and showing-off new clothes etc. Going into concrete details defining ways to observe Eid will make this post very long and more importantly, I am hardly qualified to do it (can be found out tough by anyone interested simply by checking how Muhammad used to spend the day of Eid). But let me assure you one thing (which I am pretty sure about): Its not about sending Eid Mubarak cards to all and sundry. In fact, "Eid Mubarak" is the most useless and stupid phrase that can be. Just one of the long list of traditional things we say that dont mean a thing.

However, now coming back to what is (as opposed to what should be, as decribed in the first paragraph above): Now that we are not exactly the no-nonsense momins (unfortunately), so much so that its difficult to differentiate between us and non-muslims in most of the things we do - celebrating all kinds of anniversaries, even the stupid mother's day and what not, having girl-friends and "no-she-is-not-my-girlfriend-just-a-good-friend" friends, lusting after every new cell phone that nokia introduces, running maniacally after careers, cars and gadgets just like our non-muslim counterparts (sometimes even outrunning them) - whats the big fuss about christmas?

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 The reality is you know nothing of your faith... the general concensus here is that there is no problem with wishing the christians a happy christmas or sending a christmad card or even generally enjoying the razzmatazz of a highly commercialised event... BUt there is something seriously wrong with going to church on christmas day, do you throw paint over your mother on Holi and sacrifice a virgin to fit in with the satanists and not let them feel excluded from your love in.

Couldn't care less about the "general consensus" and your second paragraph is laughable!

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 Understanding of humanity has nothing to do with it, adhearing to your faith is the issue, if you ever read the quran it would show you, that you are commiting haram.

Boy I am so pleased that your God did not burden me with your type of parent/sibling. Do note, you do not own Islam and your brand of it is intolerance personified.

[MIG]

Ok Drinks Break - boys and girls.

No more personal stuff - no more questioning each others values etc - some great posters on this thread and a clash of mega egos in progress !!

Lets relax and argue in a saner voice - please.