Islam's Silent Moderates

[deviously~fading~away]

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2)

IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror.

A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called "mingling": when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane.

Two hundred lashes are enough to kill a strong man. Women usually receive no more than 30 lashes at a time, which means that for seven weeks the "girl from Qatif," as she's usually described in news articles, will dread her next session with Islamic justice. When she is released, her life will certainly never return to normal: already there have been reports that her brother has tried to kill her because her "crime" has tarnished her family's honor.

We also saw Islamic justice in action in Sudan, when a 54-year-old British teacher named Gillian Gibbons was sentenced to 15 days in jail before the government pardoned her this week; she could have faced 40 lashes. When she began a reading project with her class involving a teddy bear, Ms. Gibbons suggested the children choose a name for it. They chose Muhammad; she let them do it. This was deemed to be blasphemy.

Then there's Taslima Nasreen, the 45-year-old Bangladeshi writer who bravely defends women's rights in the Muslim world. Forced to flee Bangladesh, she has been living in India. But Muslim groups there want her expelled, and one has offered 500,000 rupees for her head. In August she was assaulted by Muslim militants in Hyderabad, and in recent weeks she has had to leave Calcutta and then Rajasthan. Taslima Nasreen's visa expires next year, and she fears she will not be allowed to live in India again.

It is often said that Islam has been "hijacked" by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates.

But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?

Usually, Muslim groups like the Organization of the Islamic Conference are quick to defend any affront to the image of Islam. The organization, which represents 57 Muslim states, sent four ambassadors to the leader of my political party in the Netherlands asking him to expel me from Parliament after I gave a newspaper interview in 2003 noting that by Western standards some of the Prophet Muhammad's behavior would be unconscionable. A few years later, Muslim ambassadors to Denmark protested the cartoons of Muhammad and demanded that their perpetrators be prosecuted.

But while the incidents in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and India have done more to damage the image of Islamic justice than a dozen cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, the organizations that lined up to protest the hideous Danish offense to Islam are quiet now.

I wish there were more Islamic moderates. For example, I would welcome some guidance from that famous Muslim theologian of moderation, Tariq Ramadan. But when there is true suffering, real cruelty in the name of Islam, we hear, first, denial from all these organizations that are so concerned about Islam's image. We hear that violence is not in the Koran, that Islam means peace, that this is a hijacking by extremists and a smear campaign and so on. But the evidence mounts up.

Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset that is archaic and extreme.

If moderate Muslims believe there should be no compassion shown to the girl from Qatif, then what exactly makes them so moderate?

When a "moderate" Muslim's sense of compassion and conscience collides with matters prescribed by Allah, he should choose compassion. Unless that happens much more widely, a moderate Islam will remain wishful thinking.

By Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of "Infidel."

Source- NY Times

[the Great Khan]

By Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of "Infidel."

lol..that in itself dicredits this article even if she makes some valid points..we dont need to be lectured from heretics who have hidden agenda's!!..of course this isnt excusing the saudis or sudanes , its just we have enough problems and people like ayaan just make things worse!!

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by deviously~fading~away The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2) IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror. A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called "mingling": when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane.

This is what truly boils my blood, one law for women and one law for men in a, supposedly, Muslim country. Was the man, with whom she was "mingling" tried and found guilty of mingledom, if not why not? Hypocritical, no common-sense judges; if she had been their daughter then?

And, will the US and the UK, countries who fully support and back Saudia Arabia (need for oil holding back any disgust I'll bet), now give this Quatif girl sanctuary?

The disregard for women, in the 21st century, completely sickens me. Yes, where are the voices? You don't have to be a 'moderate' but you do have to be HUMAN.

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan lol..that in itself dicredits this article even if she makes some valid points..we dont need to be lectured from heretics who have hidden agenda's!!..of course this isnt excusing the saudis or sudanes , its just we have enough problems and people like ayaan just make things worse!!

Sorry, how does this writer "makes things worse"? Making things worse are a lot of Muslim men who see women as less than animals.

[deviously~fading~away]

Originally Posted by filosofee This is what truly boils my blood, one law for women and one law for men in a, supposedly, Muslim country. Was the man, with whom she was "mingling" tried and found guilty of mingledom, if not why not? Hypocritical, no common-sense judges; if she had been their daughter then? The disregard for women, in the 21st century, completely sickens me. Yes, where are the voices? You don't have to be a 'moderate' but you do have to be HUMAN.

So true. One set of standards for the men and a whole different set of standards for women. Such rubbish!

[DM]

It's utter idiocy and isn't islam at all. The country's population should be militantly opposing this desecration of the religion.

[deviously~fading~away]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan lol..that in itself dicredits this article even if she makes some valid points..we dont need to be lectured from heretics who have hidden agenda's!!..of course this isnt excusing the saudis or sudanes , its just we have enough problems and people like ayaan just make things worse!!

This is the problem. Instead of discussing 'some' valid points that she does make, we bash the author at first & than think about the valid points that she makes (almost setting them aside to an extent). And secondly how exactly is ayaan making things worse?

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by DM It's utter idiocy and isn't islam at all. The country's population should be militantly opposing this desecration of the religion.

If the legal system is such that it, almost, advocates ravagement of women, who dare speak out. And if they can't we can, outside of Saudia Arabia, seek our politicians and get them to raise the matter in Government. After all, lots of business done between the West and Saudia.

They need to be shamed, as the Mugabe-led Zimbees governance is.

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by deviously~fading~away This is the problem. Instead of discussing 'some' valid points that she does make, we bash the author at first & than think about the valid points that she makes (almost setting them aside to an extent). And secondly how exactly is ayaan making things worse?

Let's burn this "heretic".

[Wiji]

Didn't the girl from Qatif confess to fornication?

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by Wiji Didn't the girl from Qatif confess to fornication?

Did they convict the male partner/s as well or did she 'confess to fornication' on her own (please don't make my mind wander in strange directions!)

[Wiji]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. Did they convict the male partner/s as well or did she 'confess to fornication' on her own (please don't make my mind wander in strange directions!)

I seriously doubt the guys have been left off the hook. Guys get it worse in Saudi than girls. If a guy is caught hooting at a woman in public, he gets public lashings. In this case, it was a hell of a lot more than hooting, so I am guessing they're gonna get it real bad as well.

But did she confess to fornication or no? I read that on BBC somewhere, but it seems to be hard to find.

[TAK]

Originally Posted by Wiji Didn't the girl from Qatif confess to fornication?

is this case i read about recently where a male and a female were travelling together in a car which was stopped by a group of 7 men, who proceeded rto rape both of them?

[foojam]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan lol..that in itself dicredits this article even if she makes some valid points..we dont need to be lectured from heretics who have hidden agenda's!!..of course this isnt excusing the saudis or sudanes , its just we have enough problems and people like ayaan just make things worse!!

you don't surprise anyone with your view..the points she raised are the important element and criticism of the writer though justified at some level shouldn't simply be used to discredit a view.

in relation to the article i think that the western media is not going to air the views of the majority of muslims simply because it doesn''t sell papers and also it doesn't fit the current political theme..
the mullahs who scream and spout their fanatiism are few and simply a vocal and aggressive minority that seem to shout the loudest and simply say what the majority in the west like to hear- that is islam being intolerant and extreme- it is ironic that both the extremists and large parts of the western media effectively thrive through the other!

[filosofee]

The US "but" line:

White House homeland security adviser Frances Townsend, who announced her resignation Monday, called the case "absolutely reprehensible" but told CNN's "American Morning" the Saudis deserve credit for their assistance in battling terrorism.

Is not rape 'terrorism"?

And:

"This is not just about the Qatif girl, it's about every woman in Saudi Arabia," said Fawzeyah al-Oyouni, founding member of the newly formed Saudi Association for the Defense of Women's Rights. "We're fearing for our lives and the lives of our sisters and our daughters and every Saudi woman out there. We're afraid of going out in the streets. "Barring the lawyer from representing the victim in court is almost equivalent to the rape crime itself," she added. Human Rights Watch said it has called on Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah "to immediately void the verdict and drop all charges against the rape victim and to order the court to end its harassment of her lawyer."

Finally, why the girl met the man-not-of-her-blood

The man and woman were attacked after they met in Qatif on the kingdom's Persian Gulf coast, so she could retrieve an old photograph of herself from him, according to al-Lahim. Citing phone records from the police investigation, al-Lahim said the man was trying to blackmail his client. He noted the photo she was trying to retrieve was harmless and did not show his client in any compromising position. Al-Lahim said the man tried to blame his client for insisting on meeting him that day. It is illegal for a woman to meet with an unrelated male under Saudi's Islamic law.

Okay, okay, I know I'm selectively highlighting, here's the full article from which that quote is taken:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...im/#cnnSTCText


Can you imagine, we women in the West would be flogged for every meeting we attended, for going to work/uni, etc. I remember once, an elderly Pakistani woman offered this advice: when we girlies talk to a guy who is not our brother, we ought to look the other way. Man! some people think wierd.

[isr]

Originally Posted by deviously~fading~away This is the problem. Instead of discussing 'some' valid points that she does make, we bash the author at first & than think about the valid points that she makes (almost setting them aside to an extent). And secondly how exactly is ayaan making things worse?

Hang on. There are some valid points in that article. BUT the author, and that authors agenda should not be ignored.

Scum - and I truly mean scum - like Hirsi, Irshad Manji etc - have made a career out of subtly, yet viciously, propogandising against Islam under the most devious and dishonest of pretences.

If anyone here is not fully aware of what I'm referring to, then please educate yourselves before defending scum like them.

One of the best ways of disseminating propoganda is to wrap it in an outer coating of truth. Some of the points made in the opening of that article are valid. But then she twists it into something nefarious, following the twisted outlook of her, and the "facist right-wing thinktanks" which pay her.

And if done with sufficient skill, these twists are not so apparent in one article. One hooks you in. The others gradually shift you onto paths you had no idea you were embarking on.

Am I saying don't read what she says? Of course not. If you're afraid of even listening to the arguments of your enemies (no matter how dishonestly crafted they are), then you already concede defeat. But don't ignore the past DOCUMENTED record of celebrated Islamophobic propagandists and flag-bearers, as if thats not relevant.

And its not as if we needed scum like her to tell us something we didn't already know. Even on this very forum, these issues were highlighted.

[161]

Originally Posted by isr Hang on. There are some valid points in that article. BUT the author, and that authors agenda should not be ignored. Scum - and I truly mean scum - like Hirsi, Irshad Manji etc - have made a career out of subtly, yet viciously, propogandising against Islam under the most devious and dishonest of pretences. If anyone here is not fully aware of what I'm referring to, then please educate yourselves before defending scum like them. One of the best ways of disseminating propoganda is to wrap it in an outer coating of truth. Some of the points made in the opening of that article are valid. But then she twists it into something nefarious, following the twisted outlook of her, and the "facist right-wing thinktanks" which pay her.

The likes of Hirsi, Wafa Sultan and that Lebanese Fox News "journalist" Brigitte Gabriel are there for pure anti-muslim propaganda.

However I would have differentiate Irshad Manji from them.
Manji is an Islam reformer and not an Islam-hater.

[DM]

It saddens and angers me most because the locals should be dealing with this decisively and it doesn't have to be an international news story. For those of us living in the west, the ongoing actions of our very own western governments should be fought and making headline news every single day. Thanks to our subservient corporate media, the grisly suffering and torment continues with breathtakingly inadequate coverage. This would be true even if our government's actions was responsible for killing even just one civilian, let alone the thousands, hundreds of thousands, not to mention the material usurping and political defilement.

[Zeenix]

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2) Islamic justice is a proud institution, one to which more than a billion people subscribe, at least in theory, and in the heart of the Islamic world it is the law of the land. But take a look at the verse above: more compelling even than the order to flog adulterers is the command that the believer show no compassion. It is this order to choose Allah above his sense of conscience and compassion that imprisons the Muslim in a mindset that is archaic and extreme.

What about this section of the article, hidden between some valid points.

[Joseph K.]

The main problem with Hirsi is that she is a woman and speaks against the status quo, her tongue should be pulled out any way. How can she speak against our great values and glorious cultural practices? We don't show much tolerance for our atheists do we? This only makes them stronger as it shows the depth of the intellectual short-comings of the fundos which, in turn, increases the support for the atheist brigade. I liked the use of words 'heretic' and 'scum'. Medieval retribution meets postmodern slang, this a true picture of the contemporary Islam for you: worst of both the worlds!!!

[alghazzali]

Alot of the problems in these areas are cultural, barring Saudi Arabia who are just a brutal regime.

Many uneducated/malicious individuals ally their arguments with religion to garner greater attention , so i don't think you should read much into these stories as they can never reflect the laws of Islam.

I think lashes are a great form of punishment, we need stricter punishment in the UK. Have you seen the level of fornication, adultery and teenage pregnancies in this part of the world. Criminals visit prison for fun, many of them are paedophiles, who get special protection once they are released.

Deviously f-a... you have opinionated that these examples are Islamic justice, i'd take that back, as these are examples are of cultural justice.

[Joseph K.]

Lashing a person is a great way of stripping him/her of his dignity. There can be no justice in a society that does not give due respect to human dignity (even criminals are human first). In this regard lashing is wrong plain and simple. You can not slap me in public and expect nothing in return. What goes round comes round. The whole society pays for the absence of this respect for human dignity.

[aashiqmizaaj]

Manji is an Islam reformer and not an Islam-hater.

She's changed her rhetoric but she's still anti-Islam. When you make calls for changing fundamental tenets of Islam, then sorry to say you're finding fault with Islam. It's one thing to say Muslims are this and that, but to say Islam is lacking is contrary to faith. An example is her suggesting that prayer is not mandatory. She doesn't want to pray that's her perogative. Just don't try to sell it as being ok. Same with others - we're obviously not perfect - all of us deviate, some more some less, just don't justify the deviation by suggesting it is allowed.

Her understanding of Ijtihad is also laughable to say the least. The hierarchy of fiqh is Quran, Hadith, Ijtihad and Qiyaas. She has confused Ijtihad with Qiyaas. The former being exercised through scholars in the light of Quran and Hadith, the latter done when no opinion has been formed and an individual needs to decide. Her writings suggest that Ijtihad is dead and that we should all engage in it. Problem is Ijtihad is not the domain of the average Muslim.

[isr]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. Lashing a person is a great way of stripping him/her of his dignity. There can be no justice in a society that does not give due respect to human dignity (even criminals are human first). In this regard lashing is wrong plain and simple. You can not slap me in public and expect nothing in return. What goes round comes round. The whole society pays for the absence of this respect for human dignity.

Oh what a load of absolute bunk.

There are laws which advocate hanging, death by cooking (electric chair), death by overdose (lethal injection). There are laws which advocate throwing someone into a locked facility for decades, and laws which say that you should be locked away for life (LIFE) after committing a 3rd crime, like say shoplifting (3 strikes and you're out).

Apparently all of the above is completely respectful of human dignity

But lashing is the most horrendous form of punishment, and yet another example of how we Muslims are so backward, yadda yadda yadda, yawn, yawn, yawn.

You are like the worst kind of ambulance chasing lawyer - the kind of dirtbag who waits to pounce on other peoples misery to come out of the shadows and make merry. You seem to thrive on every kind bad news article that is Muslim related, so that you can latch it onto your own personal bandwagon and ram your BAGVAAS down everyones throat.

If you want to jump on your sandbox and preach why you think Islam is so so bad, and the Quran is so so misguided, and Muslims are so so (you get the idea) - THEN BLOODY WELL GO AHEAD AND DO IT, OPENLY.

Start your own thread, entitle it "Islam is bunk", and spout your cr4p to your hearts content. At least then, you'd be more honest.

[the Great Khan]

Originally Posted by foojam you don't surprise anyone with your view..the points she raised are the important element and criticism of the writer though justified at some level shouldn't simply be used to discredit a view. in relation to the article i think that the western media is not going to air the views of the majority of muslims simply because it doesn''t sell papers and also it doesn't fit the current political theme.. the mullahs who scream and spout their fanatiism are few and simply a vocal and aggressive minority that seem to shout the loudest and simply say what the majority in the west like to hear- that is islam being intolerant and extreme- it is ironic that both the extremists and large parts of the western media effectively thrive through the other!

yawn here we go again...her views are crap!!...she's full of crap..i really dont care what you resident Islam bashers think...this is just another part of her eternal battle against the male dominated Islam etc etc etc...she has zero crediblity amongst the Muslim community...nobody takes her seriously...her article is a devious attempt at trying to cover her real agenda by spouting populist nonsense so gullible idiots like you can rant on about mullahs and how rubbish Islam is etc etc...she is a heretic from her own admission....yeah lets be tolerant of these people...lets let them defame and slander our deen while apologists like yourself spout your tired platitiudes...grow up and get a life...understand what's really going on with people like Hirsi Ali and her like...next youll be telling me we should be tolerant of Quranists and other deviants!!...i dont have to shout her down..there are soo many holes in her argument im not even gonna bother with it...if you people are too blind to see them well then goodluck...continue to be "tolerant" Muslims and watch more liars like hirsi ali and her ilk throw mud at our deen and our Prophet PBUH!!...what do I care? after all im just a crazed fanatical mullah who is just derainged and isnt modern enough foir the 21st century...yeah whatever!!..she's a know heretic and should be ignored...!!..

tell me one thing that Hirsi ali has done or said that honours her in the eyes of islam?? just one thing ..or are you going to avoid the obvious as usual??...or are you one of those that thinks Islam itself is a backward 6th century religion, that was created for a patriarchal savage society and needs to be toned down so Hirsi Ali can get her pound of flesh?

[12thMan]

she has another book coming out so I am sure you will hear about it somewhere or see some more articles getting published to see the name and book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

[Bangla Tiger]

Originally Posted by deviously~fading~away This is the problem. Instead of discussing 'some' valid points that she does make, we bash the author at first & than think about the valid points that she makes (almost setting them aside to an extent). And secondly how exactly is ayaan making things worse?

i'll show you how ayan is making things worse...she cares nothing for the muslim women. she has an agenda and that ALL. her agenda is to bring down islam, whether it using muslim girls - who have been screwed by their respective systems, not by islam - or using the west's collective ignorance or penchant for trigger happy actions.

ayaan hirsi ali is a smart woman, or so we are led to believe. she can read and write and probably do math. however, she either dumb enough or irresponsible enough to throw a match into a powder keg.

no one is denying the existance of a powder keg, but there are smart ways to handle the situation and dumb ways to handle the situation.

if i walk into the projects and say that "niggers don't do anything productive" in an attempt to lift up the african american community, and then i get my azz kicked or even killed, who do i blame?

[Bangla Tiger]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. Lashing a person is a great way of stripping him/her of his dignity. There can be no justice in a society that does not give due respect to human dignity (even criminals are human first). In this regard lashing is wrong plain and simple. You can not slap me in public and expect nothing in return. What goes round comes round. The whole society pays for the absence of this respect for human dignity.

i don't think a public lashing is humiliating...i think its PAINFUL.

moral of the story: when u live in a police state like the saudis, don't fuk up and don't put yourself in a situation where someone might think you are fuking up.

beyond that its only the grace of god that can help you.

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by isr Oh what a load of absolute bunk. There are laws which advocate hanging, death by cooking (electric chair), death by overdose (lethal injection). There are laws which advocate throwing someone into a locked facility for decades, and laws which say that you should be locked away for life (LIFE) after committing a 3rd crime, like say shoplifting (3 strikes and you're out). Apparently all of the above is completely respectful of human dignity But lashing is the most horrendous form of punishment, and yet another example of how we Muslims are so backward, yadda yadda yadda, yawn, yawn, yawn. You are like the worst kind of ambulance chasing lawyer - the kind of dirtbag who waits to pounce on other peoples misery to come out of the shadows and make merry. You seem to thrive on every kind bad news article that is Muslim related, so that you can latch it onto your own personal bandwagon and ram your BAGVAAS down everyones throat. If you want to jump on your sandbox and preach why you think Islam is so so bad, and the Quran is so so misguided, and Muslims are so so (you get the idea) - THEN BLOODY WELL GO AHEAD AND DO IT, OPENLY. Start your own thread, entitle it "Islam is bunk", and spout your cr4p to your hearts content. At least then, you'd be more honest.

Spout your hatred out all you can, I can feel the sting that you received in our last argument, I can clearly see that it is still hurting your ****. Put yourself in the place of this unfortunate person, the wooden structure that he is on is called a 'tick-ticky', I must tell you, you don't want to be on a tick-ticky with your trousers round your ankles and you bum exposed for the whole world to see, waiting to be lashed. You can't compare this barbaric punishment with anything else. Take your head out of where the sun never shines, we live in a post-enlightenment age and human dignity is a big concern in this day and age. Remember Abu Gharib and the storm it created? According to your logic, the marines were only giving Muslims what their religion and culture recommends for prisoners. Have a look at this picture of the great barbaric law in action:





Stop defending the indefensible. Your post in one big example of senseless drivel which only sheds light on the incoherence of your thinking. Grow up little man and learn to discuss things intelligently. People like YOU give the impression that there are no moderates in Islam, silent or vocal. Have you completed your research on paganism in Christianity yet, Dan Brown???

[Zeenix]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. Lashing a person is a great way of stripping him/her of his dignity. There can be no justice in a society that does not give due respect to human dignity (even criminals are human first). In this regard lashing is wrong plain and simple. You can not slap me in public and expect nothing in return. What goes round comes round. The whole society pays for the absence of this respect for human dignity.

What utter crap, Same can be said for all punishments. Criminals need to be punished for their crimes, You talk about dignity i don't see what dignity is there to be in a prison and be subjected to various types of physiological and psychological torture, which do happen regularly in most prisons of the world, and what about his/her dignity after he/she is released from the prison being forced by the society/law to live a life of rejection. Talk about Human dignity. Perhaps if the person was dignified he wouldn't have committed a crime in the first place.

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by Zeenix What utter crap, Same can be said for all punishments. Criminals need to be punished for their crimes, You talk about dignity i don't see what dignity is there to be in a prison and be subjected to various types of physiological and psychological torture, which do happen regularly in most prisons of the world, and what about his/her dignity after he/she is released from the prison being forced by the society/law to live a life of rejection. Talk about Human dignity. Perhaps if the person was dignified he wouldn't have committed a crime in the first place.

You are forgetting one little detail, a criminal is still a human being. Strip a 'human being' of his dignity and nobody's dignity stays safe. You can lynch a criminal but it is a fact that societies that act like lynch-mobs are the ones in which there is no respect for human life (then we worry about the reasons behind suicide bombing and indiscriminate killings). There are decent ways of punishing the criminals but societies without compassion for their criminals are the ones full of individuals who have no respect for the sanctity of human life, be they Saudia (go to Saudia and enjoy how the baddu budbakht tells you to 'khalas or let an American gangster mug you for your wrist watch). Societies with barbaric punishments are barbaric societies be they in Saudi Arabia or in the US of A. Death penalty is wrong as it gives one human being a permission to kill another human being, lashing is simply disgusting as it not only hurts but makes a spectacle of the victim. There is something called 'Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974' which ensures that a person is not punished beyond the scope of his crime. But then these tings are unknown in societies where even rich child-abusers and murderers are left to enjoy 'normal' lives whereas poor are lashed for petty crimes. You mentioned some consequences of crime but these consequences vary from society to society.

[Ralync]

...

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by Bangla Tiger i'll show you how ayan is making things worse...she cares nothing for the muslim women. she has an agenda and that ALL. her agenda is to bring down islam, whether it using muslim girls - who have been screwed by their respective systems, not by islam - or using the west's collective ignorance or penchant for trigger happy actions. ayaan hirsi ali is a smart woman, or so we are led to believe. she can read and write and probably do math. however, she either dumb enough or irresponsible enough to throw a match into a powder keg. no one is denying the existance of a powder keg, but there are smart ways to handle the situation and dumb ways to handle the situation. if i walk into the projects and say that "niggers don't do anything productive" in an attempt to lift up the african american community, and then i get my azz kicked or even killed, who do i blame?

What's the "smart way" of handling the situation? Hide heinous crimes committed by Muslims and promulgate all ill-will towards them promoting the West as evil?

And your last paragraph, I shake my head in disgust.

[hussain_0216]

i consider myself a muslim, im not the best or greatest muslim and have alot of faults but i love my faith....

I think muslims everywhere feel like fighting back and defending our religion, I dont give a hell what the kaffir or the hypocrites say..... we muslims need to stand up for islam, if not, what is our worth as a muslim and what will we say on judgement day...


THE CRIMINAL KNOWS THE PUNISHMENT

If the law tells society DO NOT RAPE, (if you do we will punish you)..
If a man then rapes a women and society punishes him, Whose fault is that he got punished...
ANSWER: The criminals, he was told not to rape, he was explained on why rape is wrong and how evil it is and that he would be punished if he commited the act. If he then still commits the act then the punsihement will fall upon him, IT IS HIS FAULT, PURE AND SIMPLE

Islam lays out the law IT TELLS YOU WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG, it even ives you the punishments for crossing the line and commiting crime..

If the criminals STILL commit the crime, then screw them... they were told WELL AHEAD OF TIME, what the consequences would be, THEN WHAT ARE THEY COMPLAINING ABOUT..



BLAME THE CRIMINAL DO NOT BLAME THE PUNISHMENT,,

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by Ralync I've finished my uni project, nothings on TV, hey why not go on PakPassion and bash Islam.

Yes, let's focus away from what the author is reporting, shall we? Let's ignore the double standards, clearly misogynistic governance in Saudia Arabia and bash Ayan Hirsi on Pakpassion in our spare time.

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 i consider myself a muslim, im not the best or greatest muslim and have alot of faults but i love my faith.... I think muslims everywhere feel like fighting back and defending our religion, I dont give a hell what the kaffir or the hypocrites say..... we muslims need to stand up for islam, if not, what is our worth as a muslim and what will we say on judgement day... THE CRIMINAL KNOWS THE PUNISHMENT If the law tells society DO NOT RAPE, (if you do we will punish you).. If a man then rapes a women and society punishes him, Whose fault is that he got punished... ANSWER: The criminals, he was told not to rape, he was explained on why rape is wrong and how evil it is and that he would be punished if he commited the act. If he then still commits the act then the punsihement will fall upon him, IT IS HIS FAULT, PURE AND SIMPLE Islam lays out the law IT TELLS YOU WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG, it even ives you the punishments for crossing the line and commiting crime.. If the criminals STILL commit the crime, then screw them... they were told WELL AHEAD OF TIME, what the consequences would be, THEN WHAT ARE THEY COMPLAINING ABOUT.. BLAME THE CRIMINAL DO NOT BLAME THE PUNISHMENT,,

To remind you, as you're on your high-horse:

A 20-year-old woman from Qatif, Saudi Arabia, reported that she had been abducted by several men and repeatedly raped. But judges found the victim herself to be guilty. Her crime is called "mingling": when she was abducted, she was in a car with a man not related to her by blood or marriage, and in Saudi Arabia, that is illegal. Last month, she was sentenced to six months in prison and 200 lashes with a bamboo cane.

That is, in Saudia Arabia and no doubt in Pakistan too, it could be the one raped who is punished, not the criminals, the rapists.

[hussain_0216]

In relation to this saudi women...

Islam asks noble women to not place themselves into comprimision situations.. Not give the predators of society the ability to hurt them...

Islam condemns the criminal/rapist/predator to a just but harsh punishment, they knew the consequences, let them suffer them in this life and the next..

BUT

Every individual also has the responsibility to follow islam, not to transgress... Women re asked not to go down dark alleys with non-mahram menm, not to meet up with them.. If in such a instance the non-man mahram rapes the women he faces the punishemtn under islam for rape (to hell with him), but the women contributed to bringing immorality to society for acting in the way she did, so she wont be punsihed for the rape she will be punished her part in the immoral act.. (she should have known better)....

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 In relation to this saudi women... Islam asks noble women to not place themselves into comprimision situations.. Not give the predators of society the ability to hurt them... Islam condemns the criminal/rapist/predator to a just but harsh punishment, they knew the consequences, let them suffer them in this life and the next.. BUT Every individual also has the responsibility to follow islam, not to transgress... Women re asked not to go down dark alleys with non-mahram menm, not to meet up with them.. If in such a instance the non-man mahram rapes the women he faces the punishemtn under islam for rape (to hell with him), but the women contributed to bringing immorality to society for acting in the way she did, so she wont be punsihed for the rape she will be punished her part in the immoral act.. (she should have known better)....

She wasn't in a dark alley! And, should you have a daughter and after an office meeting/mingle a male colleague, lothario hassles her, I hope you'll remember your words, that it was her fault for bringing about a situation that could result in uninvited mingledom.


There's no point in discussing this with someone who's views are as highlighted at the end. I thank my parents for leaving Pakistan and for not moving to Saudia Arabia.

[hussain_0216]

There is one situation where in the west muslims are placed in situtons where via work etc we have to intermingle, thats fair enough.

ther individual must still look after herself..... in a work setting... If some lothario tries to seduce a muslim and she refuses his advances and he rapes her, then he is a rapist I wouldnt want weak ass western law dealing with him,if he raped lets try him under sharia THAT WILL TEACH HIM AND OTHER RAPISTS A LESSON they wont forget,, but you have to understand islam isnt unfair (humans and socieities may be),,, it asks the faithfull not to place themselves into un-islamic situations like meet up with men in cars...

[foojam]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan yawn here we go again...her views are crap!!...she's full of crap..i really dont care what you resident Islam bashers think...this is just another part of her eternal battle against the male dominated Islam etc etc etc...she has zero crediblity amongst the Muslim community...nobody takes her seriously...her article is a devious attempt at trying to cover her real agenda by spouting populist nonsense so gullible idiots like you can rant on about mullahs and how rubbish Islam is etc etc...she is a heretic from her own admission....yeah lets be tolerant of these people...lets let them defame and slander our deen while apologists like yourself spout your tired platitiudes...grow up and get a life...understand what's really going on with people like Hirsi Ali and her like...next youll be telling me we should be tolerant of Quranists and other deviants!!...i dont have to shout her down..there are soo many holes in her argument im not even gonna bother with it...if you people are too blind to see them well then goodluck...continue to be "tolerant" Muslims and watch more liars like hirsi ali and her ilk throw mud at our deen and our Prophet PBUH!!...what do I care? after all im just a crazed fanatical mullah who is just derainged and isnt modern enough foir the 21st century...yeah whatever!!..she's a know heretic and should be ignored...!!.. tell me one thing that Hirsi ali has done or said that honours her in the eyes of islam?? just one thing ..or are you going to avoid the obvious as usual??...or are you one of those that thinks Islam itself is a backward 6th century religion, that was created for a patriarchal savage society and needs to be toned down so Hirsi Ali can get her pound of flesh?

here we go..personal insults and bigotry (not just yur view but some others on this thread). Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder?? anytime there is any criticism about islam instead of tackling it you start ranting and raving? yes you do sound like a crazed mullah.
you seem to conclude that because somebody criticises a particular facet of islam he/she is an automatic supporter of the west...

i think it was brought up on other threads but it really does surprise me how you manage to live your life here in england without being completely miserable...u know - no beheadings...lashings...stonings...

[foojam]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 There is one situation where in the west muslims are placed in situtons where via work etc we have to intermingle, thats fair enough. ther individual must still look after herself..... in a work setting... If some lothario tries to seduce a muslim and she refuses his advances and he rapes her, then he is a rapist I wouldnt want weak ass western law dealing with him,if he raped lets try him under sharia THAT WILL TEACH HIM AND OTHER RAPISTS A LESSON they wont forget,, but you have to understand islam isnt unfair (humans and socieities may be),,, it asks the faithfull not to place themselves into un-islamic situations like meet up with men in cars...

u utopian u!

[hussain_0216]

humans are too corrupt to ever have a utopian society, thats why you need a system that understands the failures of humans and implements a total policy which dosent just punish the criminal but deals with the issue....

Whether you like it or not, in this case the rapists will be dealt with the full brunt of islamic law and the immorality which led to the rape taking place will be punished also giving out a strong message.

[foojam]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 humans are too corrupt to ever have a utopian society, thats why you need a system that understands the failures of humans and implements a total policy which dosent just punish the criminal but deals with the issue.... Whether you like it or not, in this case the rapists will be dealt with the full brunt of islamic law and the immorality which led to the rape taking place will be punished also giving out a strong message.

you contradict yourself
how are you going to implement your version of islamic law if humans are so corrupt?? i'm assuming that you believe your version of islamic law is beyond reproach?

[hussain_0216]

God is perfect, islam is perfect...

Humans are corrupt and biased,

Islam dosent make mistakes, it is humans through a lack of understanding, incorrect implmentation, bias, hypocricy (you name it) which make the mistakes and cause the problems....

Because of human corruption which can never be ended (the nature of the beast), it is up to the muslims to strive for as pure an implementation of our beleifs and faith as possible, this path will have failures but, it is worthy for any muslim

[Serendipity]

Let's continue to keep thsi thread productive and decent.

Going back to the topic:

Incident and reaction from the eyes of a UK Muslim Girl:

When I recently read the story of a 19-year-old Saudi woman who was gang-raped 14 times in an attack in Qatif, in the eastern province of the country, a year-and-a-half ago, I felt nauseous. I was disgusted. But not as horrified and angry as I felt when I read that along with the sentences for the perpetrators, the victim had also been sentenced to 90 lashes for breaking the Saudi rule that men and women who are not related should not be together. The victim claims she was not alone with any man but had in fact been abducted from a public place. When her lawyer protested that the sentences against the seven men were too lenient, and she went to the media, the presiding judge did increase the men’s sentences slightly (from one to five years, up to two to nine years) but also increased her sentence to 200 lashes. The lawyer’s right to practice is also being revoked.

I searched the news feeds to see if I had missed some key fact, mis-read the story, over-looked any shreds of humanity, compassion or justice. I found none. And so, for the first time - as I wrote on my blog about this incident - I found myself writing the words, Not in my name.
I wrote these words as a human being disgusted that another person could punish further the victim of a multiple rape. But I realised that I also wrote these words as a Muslim. The ruling in Saudi Arabia was not to do with me, or my faith.

After the bombings of July 7, I had heated debates about whether I wanted to support campaigns that Muslims were organising under this very strapline of ‘Not in my name’. I felt at the time that such a campaign would support reverse logic: by saying that the horrific attacks were not to do with me, I was indicating that somehow I was indeed responsible and related in my values to the bombers. I felt as though I was being asked to admit guilt and responsibility, where neither were appropriate. I was not responsible for what they did. What those men did, and others like them, is not from my understanding of my faith. It does not come from the core values of Islam. I asked myself, why should I feel the need to create an anti-connection to these men, if I was rejecting the very premises of their violent views? I condemn utterly what they have done.

My rejection and disgust at the bombings was with the same horror as that of the rest of the British people. I shared the nation’s grief as a human being. In this I was not distinguished from my neighbours by colour or creed. The mourning and distress of Britain, was my own mourning and distress. I felt no need to claim special status, responsibility or special distinction.

In the matter of the Saudi woman, however, there was no mourning, no outcry, no public grief. Therefore, I felt the need to make the declaration that this act had no truth, justice or compassion. The values of my humanity and my Islam were betrayed. The decision was made by those supposedly in authority, those who claimed special rank in showing what Islam should be. The Saudi courts who made this horrific ruling had not rejected authority, they were not attacking establishment - they were claiming in fact to be the authority and they were the establishment. How could I do anything BUT state that this authority and this decision was Not in my name?

It is a given fact that I am not accountable for what another individual does. This is a basic premise of British law as well as Islamic belief. We only have a responsibility for our own actions. Neither do I have direct accountability for what happens in Muslim countries abroad. I’m fed up of being told I am to blame for what happens elsewhere in the world. I’m frustrated that as a nation, we have a discourse that says that just because there are problems - serious problems - in many Muslim countries with regards to human rights, religious practice and tolerance, then that means Muslims here are responsible for that, and that people of faith, including Muslims, should be denied rights here. Again, it is reverse logic. Why should our behaviour as a nation, be governed by the values of others? That only brings us down to the lowest common denominator. As a sovereign nation we should lead by example. By ‘we’ (in case I need to spell it out) I mean Britain. And that includes Muslims as an inherent part of the British people. Our actions should be rooted in truth, justice and compassion. They can never be contingent on the behaviour of others. As a nation we can only be responsible for the way we act, and we can only be accountable for our actions in the international community.

What is incumbent on me is to be a good citizen of my own nation, and to uphold truth, justice and compassion here in our land. I must assess and recognise what is right and wrong on its own merit, not based on who is saying it. My duty is to create the best society where I am, and that duty applies to those of all faiths and none.

As Muslims we need to be clear that just because a government or an individual that carries out an action claims to be Islamic or Muslim, that does not mean it is inherently right. If an action is carried out, or an opinion held by those of other faiths (or none), that does not make it inherently wrong. Locate the truth first, then see who is saying it, stated the Prophet Muhammad.

My actions should not be contingent on what someone else does. They should be rooted in what is right and what is wrong. At the end of the day, I am only accountable for my own actions, but that also means that I am responsible for my own actions irrespective of how other people act and behave. The case of Holocaust Memorial Day is illustrative. The organisers state that the aim of the day is to “motivate people individually and collectively, to ensure that the horrendous crimes, racism and victimisation committed during the Holocaust and more recent genocides are neither forgotten nor repeated, whether in Europe or elsewhere in the world.”

I wholeheartedly support this objective. I believe that as a Muslim, as a person of faith, as a human being, it is my duty to remember all innocents who have been killed, and to offer my condolences and in this case, I offer my condolences and mourn those millions that were specifically lost in the Holocaust. Never again, has to be our pledge.

Many people ask, if these are the aims, then why is this not a genocide memorial day? They rightly say, have not people all around the world suffered brutal massacre and persecution? I firmly believe that the international scale and horror of genocide does indeed need to be recognised, and that it is now time that we should have a separate day to mark that. But on this one particular day, we remember those particular innocents: those who were killed in the Holocaust.
Every human life is equally valuable and I must recognise it as such, wherever or whenever it is lost. My action in remembering, and vowing that it should not happen again, is not contingent on the motives or responses of others. I carry out this action because it is inherently right.
Our decisions must be informed by truth, justice and compassion, and these decisions must direct our actions. If we make our actions contingent on the behaviour of others, then we all find that our humanity is compromised.

Assessing independently what is the right thing to do, is no easy task. That choice is just as difficult whether it is in the context of being a nation, or an individual. When our humanity is compromised then it is the responsibility of all of us, together, to state that this is Not in our name

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 God is perfect, islam is perfect... Humans are corrupt and biased, Islam dosent make mistakes, it is humans through a lack of understanding, incorrect implmentation, bias, hypocricy (you name it) which make the mistakes and cause the problems.... Because of human corruption which can never be ended (the nature of the beast), it is up to the muslims to strive for as pure an implementation of our beleifs and faith as possible, this path will have failures but, it is worthy for any muslim

Umm, so faristhey (angels) will descend to earth to "strive for as pure an implementation of our beleifs and faith"? (Because, as Muslims are humans, it follows, from your argument they are not worthy, being "corrupt and biased", to set up any fair and just system).

[hussain_0216]

No , but each individual muslim is asked to follow the path of islam set out in the Quran, not transgress the limits and break the values of islam as God knows better then us... So when we live our daily lives we refer to islam/Quran for guidance so we stay on the correct path

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 No , but each individual muslim is asked to follow the path of islam set out in the Quran, not transgress the limits and break the values of islam as God knows better then us... So when we live our daily lives we refer to islam/Quran for guidance so we stay on the correct path

Those who abducted, and gang-molested the Quatif girl forgot to refer to their holy book sure transgressed didn't they!

It's quite obvious that no religions/belief-systems, or books, are able to stop some of their followers from acting barbarically.

[isr]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. Spout your hatred out all you can, I can feel the sting that you received in our last argument, I can clearly see that it is still hurting your ****.

The sting I received? I received? From you? Where? When?

My God, you are totally deluded.

Originally Posted by Joseph K Put yourself in the place of this unfortunate person, the wooden structure that he is on is called a 'tick-ticky', I must tell you, you don't want to be on a tick-ticky with your trousers round your ankles and you bum exposed for the whole world to see, waiting to be lashed. You can't compare this barbaric punishment with anything else. Take your head out of where the sun never shines, we live in a post-enlightenment age and human dignity is a big concern in this day and age. Remember Abu Gharib and the storm it created? According to your logic, the marines were only giving Muslims what their religion and culture recommends for prisoners.

What a filthy lie. You back that up - NOW. Show where we demand that prisoners of war, unconvicted of any crime, be lashed, strung up with electric wires, sodomised, forced to sodomise others, eat human faeces, etc, etc.

In fact, you show - NOW - where Islam advocates the mistreatment of enemy prisoners, under any conditions.

MODS - this kind of bull cannot be allowed to continue. When people come out and flat out lie through their teeth about Islam - they must be held accountable. This isn't a secular v fundie issue. Its a basic issue of truth, outright falsehood, and the viability of this forum.

Originally Posted by Joseph K Stop defending the indefensible. Your post in one big example of senseless drivel which only sheds light on the incoherence of your thinking.

Not a single person on this forum (that I'm aware of) has defended the imposition of lashes on the victim (in the case which has sparked this). Some have explained the judge's rationale. No one has defended it.

Originally Posted by Joseph K Grow up little man and learn to discuss things .... People like YOU give the impression that there are no moderates in Islam, silent or vocal. Have you completed your research on paganism in Christianity yet, Dan Brown???

Alright, I warned you before, with the "boy" nonsense - and cut you some slack then. Predictably, you jumped into a corner and kept your mouth shut on that thread. Now you have asked for it.

Who the hell do you think you are? You jump around from thread to thread, trying to throw sparks in the hope of starting a fire.

You don't have the balls to back up a single thing you say. When challenged, you just turn 90 degrees, and continue regardless. And then you have the audacity, the bare faced cheek, to pat yourself on the back in the delusion that you have somehow "put others in their place".

I am cringing with embarrassment that something like you is prowling around on this forum. A psychiatrist would have field day with your postings. That doesn't interest me. What does concern me is your poisonous influence on this forum.

Some of us have been here a lot longer than you, and would like to have it back.

[Bangla Tiger]

Originally Posted by filosofee What's the "smart way" of handling the situation? Hide heinous crimes committed by Muslims and promulgate all ill-will towards them promoting the West as evil?

i didn't say i have the answer...but ayaan hirsi ali certainly thinks she does. and fat lot of success she's having at making the world a less hateful place.

And your last paragraph, I shake my head in disgust.

good. because thats exactly what ayaan hirsi ali, tasleema nasrin, and others are doing while claiming "oh, i'm just trying to make them see the folly of their ways"

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by isr The sting I received? I received? From you? Where? When? My God, you are totally deluded. What a filthy lie. You back that up - NOW. Show where we demand that prisoners of war, unconvicted of any crime, be lashed, strung up with electric wires, sodomised, forced to sodomise others, eat human faeces, etc, etc. In fact, you show - NOW - where Islam advocates the mistreatment of enemy prisoners, under any conditions. MODS - this kind of bull cannot be allowed to continue. When people come out and flat out lie through their teeth about Islam - they must be held accountable. This isn't a secular v fundie issue. Its a basic issue of truth, outright falsehood, and the viability of this forum. Not a single person on this forum (that I'm aware of) has defended the imposition of lashes on the victim (in the case which has sparked this). Some have explained the judge's rationale. No one has defended it. Alright, I warned you before, with the "boy" nonsense - and cut you some slack then. Predictably, you jumped into a corner and kept your mouth shut on that thread. Now you have asked for it. Who the hell do you think you are? You jump around from thread to thread, trying to throw sparks in the hope of starting a fire. You don't have the balls to back up a single thing you say. When challenged, you just turn 90 degrees, and continue regardless. And then you have the audacity, the bare faced cheek, to pat yourself on the back in the delusion that you have somehow "put others in their place". I am cringing with embarrassment that something like you is prowling around on this forum. A psychiatrist would have field day with your postings. That doesn't interest me. What does concern me is your poisonous influence on this forum. Some of us have been here a lot longer than you, and would like to have it back.

As always you resort to personal abuse, nothing new there. Too stupid to realise that having ones views challenged is not only the principle raison d'être of a forum such as this, it is also a valuable aid for clarifying those views through being asked questions which oblige one to analyse them more thoroughly and/or in novel ways. You are evidently not equipped to rise to this challenge. Or possessed of such supreme arrogance that you imagine your opinions to be beyond dispute.

And what are these opinions that you hold so dear to your heart: Don't stir the rubbish of all this cultural junk pushed in our faces as Islam. People like you have hijacked MY faith. You think that nothing is wrong when 'jahalia' is brought back in the name of Islam. You are too arrogant to realize that it is time to move on and discard the cultural crap passed on in the name of religion. Read my post again 'according to your logic...' but then it is the second nature of people like you, take words out of context and issue fatwas. If I misunderstand 'your logic' then please clarify instead of throwing poor little Igglepiggle out of your pram.

Its because of people like you that ummah is in the mess that we find it in now. You are so very insecure, 'Islam-bashing' my ****. You can't clean up the mess by brushing it under the carpet, can you? But this is exactly what is happening and most Muslims are themselves helping in this despicable act. You can't clean up without throwing light on it and seeing cr@p for what it is. Oh, no, your precious little faith will be hurt if bad things are discussed. I pity the fools for their insecurity. If a woman is lashed for being a victim of a gang-rape then these things should be openly discussed as this is a serious miscarriage of justice.

[hussain_0216]

I thought you were a russian jew...

[hussain_0216]

Questioning unislamic things is fine...

But then we also have to stand up for islam and islamic values...

You people not only attack islam, you dont defend islam and nor do you want islma implmented

So to muslims you just sit there and attack us..

[isr]

Originally Posted by Joseph K. As always you resort to personal abuse, nothing new there. What a sad little creature you are. Too stupid to realise that .............

Crikey. Its worse than I thought. I had thought you were acting as an "agent provocateur" (err, spelling?), just trying to stir things up to suit your own prejudices. I'm now getting the feeling that you actually believe your own stuff.

You're right, of course. I was just delaying the inevitable. You're arguments are flawless. You demolished my attempts at stopping any condemnation of that righteous judge's imposition of lashes on the rape victim. And your repudiation of all those fatwas I issued is unanswerable.

Against your rapier wit, your rock-like logic, and your vast encylcopedic knowledge, I am but a flea. I can only surrender.

Ok, I'm off to find a mod so that I can cry on his shoulder, and redress my insecurities (oh, my ego!). Do please continue to furnish us with more wisdom and enlightenment (for example, perhaps you could explain in greater detail - just who is "IgglePiggle"?)

[Wazeeri]

JK

Who has asked for someone to be lashed with their trousers around their ankles?
And why exactly should a criminal not be humiliated? I have no comments on the girl as I only know half of the story (western half) but as far as your comments on lashing go, I completely disagree.

Why are lashing humiliating and being sentenced to imprisonment not more so? Especially when you come out? How about a fina and public community service like sweeping the streets?

What do you suggest we do with criminals if all the above are out of the question.

Lashing is prescribed in the Quran and thus it cannot be wrong.

[the Great Khan]

Originally Posted by foojam here we go..personal insults and bigotry (not just yur view but some others on this thread). Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder?? anytime there is any criticism about islam instead of tackling it you start ranting and raving? yes you do sound like a crazed mullah. you seem to conclude that because somebody criticises a particular facet of islam he/she is an automatic supporter of the west... i think it was brought up on other threads but it really does surprise me how you manage to live your life here in england without being completely miserable...u know - no beheadings...lashings...stonings...

the reason for the chip on my shoulder is simple..idiots like you...every time i come on time pass theres something that just cheezes me off..everybody and their goat knows what hirsi ali is all about...just do some reserach, but yet again we see the same names on the thread..the same culprits spouting their anti islamic nonsense...thats what really winds me up!!....ranting and raving..of course im gonna rant and rave when bachay like yourself who should know better continue to argue the same defunct issues...why are you defending this woman? her agenda is as plain as day yet you defend her...its like defending Abu Jahal for Gods sake...would you have defended him in his criticism of the prophet PBUH??

very very frustrating....to see the same issues over and over..answers are given over and over all across the net, yet the same topics are regurgitated over and over.....as for me living in england well you dont know me so dont jump to conclusions about people just because of a few posts on a forum!!...my agenda is simple: i will defend Islam from heretics, I will defend islam from those that love to bash it, I will support justice, truth and freedom for my people, and I will never be afraid to say what I really think!!...why are you afraid to say what you really think? cmon enlighten us..what do you really think about Islam!!...enough of these games!! and finally Hirsi Ali has rejected Islam, she is no longer a Muslim by her own admission, she has supported those that want to see us wiped out in europe, she has said some pretty vile things about the deen..why in Gods name should i even bother to listen to her since her credibility is zero? and why do you entertain her agenda? is it the same as yours and do you agree with her?

[Boys_played_well]

I would love to say what i really thought of Islam but I'm afraid I will be run off the board

This Islamic bravado coming from a few people here is really getting old...

[DM]

Originally Posted by Boys_played_well I would love to say what i really thought of Islam but I'm afraid I will be run off the board

By the measure of your posts on religion and philosophy, that won't be much to worry about

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by DM By the measure of your posts on religion and philosophy, that won't be much to worry about

Incidentally, once I laid out on philosophy, I never got a response from you or your buddy alghazzali. That thread remains open if you wish to read.

[DM]

I stopped posting on that thread after you didn't seem to be reading or acknowledging my rebuttals, at least judging by your follow up posts. Your buddy did and I carried on the dialogue with him. Nothing personal, it's just time economics for me.

Over the years you tend to notice the people who are rigid in their current thought and resist ideas that undermine their current ones, and those who are actually interested in learning any new information from the discussion rather than slip into the fruitless vortex of adopting the stance of a battle of wills.

Sadly it's quite a human trait and I find it easiest to resist it by trying to imagine i'm a robot. I and Os. Digital info. Yes and No. And if you cant see a yes-no yet, break it down further. You'll eventually end up with one. Usually!

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by DM I stopped posting on that thread after you didn't seem to be reading or acknowledging my rebuttals, at least judging by your follow up posts. Your buddy did and I carried on the dialogue with him. Nothing personal, it's just time economics for me. Over the years you tend to notice the people who are rigid in their current thought and resist ideas that undermine their current ones, and those who are actually interested in learning any new information from the discussion rather than slip into the fruitless vortex of adopting the stance of a battle of wills. Sadly it's quite a human trait and I find it easiest to resist it by trying to imagine i'm a robot. I and Os. Digital info. Yes and No. And if you cant see a yes-no yet, break it down further. You'll eventually end up with one. Usually!

I laid out the ontological argument and many others you and your friend threw names of, but never actually bothered talking about. It was right about that time that the thread went dead.

Perhaps when you have a minute or two that doesn't jeopardize the time economics, you may want to read.

[DM]

Time economics = euphemism for wasting my time. To let the ppers know what we are talking about, our 'dialogue' starts on this page in this thread:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...0&page=5&pp=50

Reading it should make it pretty clear why I conclude that I was wasting my time.

[DM]

...with Boys, not with Robert.

[DM]

Originally Posted by Boys_played_well I laid out the ontological argument and many others you and your friend threw names of, but never actually bothered talking about.

Again, you present an example of how you aren't actually reading or bothering to comprehend what I wrote - I did not throw the name of the ontological argument at all. To be fair to you, it doesn't sound like you're aware of the implications of the concepts. If you go to Amazon and search for Wittgenstein and Tractatus, that's a good starting point. But I won't continue. Your friend Robert demonstrates that he has read posts that he is responding to, and I tried to reciprocate. I'd much prefer that basic premise in a dialogue or debate.

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by DM Again, you present an example of how you aren't actually reading or bothering to comprehend what I wrote - I did not throw the name of the ontological argument at all. To be fair to you, it doesn't sound like you're aware of the implications of the concepts. If you go to Amazon and search for Wittgenstein and Tractatus, that's a good starting point. But I won't continue. Your friend Robert demonstrates that he has read posts that he is responding to, and I tried to reciprocate. I'd much prefer that basic premise in a dialogue or debate.

Please read the other thread before running your mouth off. I bumped it up for your benefit. Robert is more conciliatory in his tone and that's why you keep referring to him frequently. It turns out I am not as patient to your close mindedness which obviously leads to only one conclusion, no matter how malleable the philosophy you claim to know is.

Take me on there and we'll see who is the first to run off to a book store. You seem to take the stance that philosophy argues for religion/God, your rigid words do reflect so - this is a disservice to others as it is simply not true.

I'd be more than happy to respond to anything you have to say, but in the other thread. Let us not hijack this one.

[foojam]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan the reason for the chip on my shoulder is simple..idiots like you...every time i come on time pass theres something that just cheezes me off..everybody and their goat knows what hirsi ali is all about...just do some reserach, but yet again we see the same names on the thread..the same culprits spouting their anti islamic nonsense...thats what really winds me up!!....ranting and raving..of course im gonna rant and rave when bachay like yourself who should know better continue to argue the same defunct issues...why are you defending this woman? her agenda is as plain as day yet you defend her...its like defending Abu Jahal for Gods sake...would you have defended him in his criticism of the prophet PBUH?? very very frustrating....to see the same issues over and over..answers are given over and over all across the net, yet the same topics are regurgitated over and over.....as for me living in england well you dont know me so dont jump to conclusions about people just because of a few posts on a forum!!...my agenda is simple: i will defend Islam from heretics, I will defend islam from those that love to bash it, I will support justice, truth and freedom for my people, and I will never be afraid to say what I really think!!...why are you afraid to say what you really think? cmon enlighten us..what do you really think about Islam!!...enough of these games!! and finally Hirsi Ali has rejected Islam, she is no longer a Muslim by her own admission, she has supported those that want to see us wiped out in europe, she has said some pretty vile things about the deen..why in Gods name should i even bother to listen to her since her credibility is zero? and why do you entertain her agenda? is it the same as yours and do you agree with her?

u know tgk if u supported justice, truth and freedom for ALL people yur mind may open up just a little.

[DM]

Originally Posted by Boys_played_well Please read the other thread before running your mouth off. I bumped it up for your benefit. Robert is more conciliatory in his tone and that's why you keep referring to him frequently. It turns out I am not as patient to your close mindedness which obviously leads to only one conclusion, no matter how malleable the philosophy you claim to know is.

It obviously leads to one conclusion? Ok Boys, i'll take your word on that.

I don't refer to Robert because he's "more conciliatory", it's because he reads responses and understands them rather than seemingly ignoring them, regurgitating questions that are already answered to press your own beliefs, it has a dogmatic and indoctrinated quality to it. It's quite frustrating to have a discussion with someone like that and I try not to waste my time with such people. If you really want my views on the ontological argument, Wittgenstein's Tractatus is a good start. That's if you genuinely are interested in possible alternatives to your current beliefs and not just wanting to push your own dogma.

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by Bangla Tiger i didn't say i have the answer...but ayaan hirsi ali certainly thinks she does. and fat lot of success she's having at making the world a less hateful place.

More than you are with your obfuscation of the issue (judgment re the Qatif girl). The author suggests an "answer" imploring:

It is often said that Islam has been "hijacked" by a small extremist group of radical fundamentalists. The vast majority of Muslims are said to be moderates. But where are the moderates? Where are the Muslim voices raised over the terrible injustice of incidents like these? How many Muslims are willing to stand up and say, in the case of the girl from Qatif, that this manner of justice is appalling, brutal and bigoted — and that no matter who said it was the right thing to do, and how long ago it was said, this should no longer be done?

Originally Posted by Bangla Tiger good. because thats exactly what ayaan hirsi ali, tasleema nasrin, and others are doing while claiming "oh, i'm just trying to make them see the folly of their ways"

Again, she's accomplishing while you concentrate elswhere. And every female born of Muslim parents who stands up and against traditions , that keep her constrained and backwards, will succeed in advancing humankind while some Muslim men will sit with head in hands wailing "how did we lose control?".

[filosofee]

Originally Posted by DM It obviously leads to one conclusion? Ok Boys, i'll take your word on that. I don't refer to Robert because he's "more conciliatory", it's because he reads responses and understands them rather than seemingly ignoring them, regurgitating questions that are already answered to press your own beliefs, it has a dogmatic and indoctrinated quality to it. It's quite frustrating to have a discussion with someone like that and I try not to waste my time with such people. If you really want my views on the ontological argument, Wittgenstein's Tractatus is a good start. That's if you genuinely are interested in possible alternatives to your current beliefs and not just wanting to push your own dogma.

Why don't you post a piece from it that supports your outlook?

[isr]

Originally Posted by filosofee More than you are with your obfuscation of the issue (judgment re the Qatif girl). The author suggests an "answer" imploring: .... Again, she's accomplishing while you concentrate elswhere. And every female born of Muslim parents who stands up and against traditions , that keep her constrained and backwards, will succeed in advancing humankind while some Muslim men will sit with head in hands wailing "how did we lose control?".

Filosofee, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Lets break this down.

A horrible judgement was laid down, holding a rape victim partially responsible for the crime, and punishing her further AFTER she had already suffered.

The judge who made this decision, was operating within a body of law which is rooted in Islam (how faithfully that was done, is a matter of debate).

There is widespread condemnation of this decision, including from within the Muslim world.

It is very very hard (read: impossible) to find how this judge made this decision. He seems to have gone out of his way to completely ignore the Islamic traditions, Prophetic sayings, etc which emphasise compassion for victims (especially in rape cases).

In the aftermath, everyone seems to be holding Islam accountable, instead of the judge. This is the part where logic breaks down, for me.

On another thread, Saj highlighted a similarly horrible case, where a judge mistreated a rape victim, and gave an incomprehensible decision. That was in Australia. Its not a reflection on either society - there was almost unanimous condemnation in both cases.

But in the former case, the laws - and the inspiration behind them (Islam) - is held up for ridicule. No matter that we can't decipher how the judge was able to use Shariah to justify his idiocy - its still Shariah's fault.

In the latter case, the laws, and the inspiration behind them (British Anglo-Saxon legal tradition) is not cited as the issue. The judge is held responsible.

And into this mix, we bring in professional anti-Muslim bigots like Hirsi? Thats like bringing Goebbels back from the dead, to comment on Jewish wrongdoings. Its a complete non-starter.

There is no lack of Muslim understanding, sympathy, or desire for betterment - legally, culturally, socially. As if we need scum like Hirsi for that? Unfortunately, what you have now is an environment dominated by the extremes.

In the one corner, you have folks who react to almost anything Muslim with disgust, bordering on outright visceral hatred. Cue all the usual prejudices (7th century backwardness, oh look at the West and all their shiny pretty things - lets be just like them, etc, etc).

In the other corner, you have folks who are so taken aback with the first group, that they become consumed by what they espouse. Leading them into positions of extremism and outright futility that ironically, their own faith does not encourage.

Each group feeds the other. Each group takes it in turns to provoke the other, by their actions. And each group continues its march towards extremism.

In the middle lie the vast majority of Muslims, across the globe. We are NOT the problem.

[Zechariah]

Saudi Arabia is the last place on Earth where you would find pure Islam. The only thing they do right and admirable is the fact that they strongly oppose practises of any sort of shirk but when it comes to human rights and all, there Islam has double stanadards.

The moderates need to first and foremost hold tight the Quran and understand it fully and read is regularily to gain knowledge about the beautiful book. The fact that we have left the Holy Book in the hands of a select few has resulted in the Islamic systems of today which are limited to 'looks' and 'moral punishments'.

When it comes to economic matters, political matters, welfare, human rights, critical thinking, education, progress, these same upholders of the Shariah have double standards.

Moderates need to understand Islam fully and bring forth this pure image with a determined and united effort and that will only happen when moderates hold tight the Quran and realize that thier number one mission in life is to create a JUST economic, political and social system on Earth.

[foojam]

Originally Posted by filosofee More than you are with your obfuscation of the issue (judgment re the Qatif girl). The author suggests an "answer" imploring: Again, she's accomplishing while you concentrate elswhere. And every female born of Muslim parents who stands up and against traditions , that keep her constrained and backwards, will succeed in advancing humankind while some Muslim men will sit with head in hands wailing "how did we lose control?".

well said...

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by filosofee Why don't you post a piece from it that supports your outlook?

My point exactly.

Referring to the same book while not really making any point at all is weak, IMO.

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by Zechariah Saudi Arabia is the last place on Earth where you would find pure Islam. The only thing they do right and admirable is the fact that they strongly oppose practises of any sort of shirk but when it comes to human rights and all, there Islam has double stanadards. The moderates need to first and foremost hold tight the Quran and understand it fully and read is regularily to gain knowledge about the beautiful book. The fact that we have left the Holy Book in the hands of a select few has resulted in the Islamic systems of today which are limited to 'looks' and 'moral punishments'. When it comes to economic matters, political matters, welfare, human rights, critical thinking, education, progress, these same upholders of the Shariah have double standards. Moderates need to understand Islam fully and bring forth this pure image with a determined and united effort and that will only happen when moderates hold tight the Quran and realize that thier number one mission in life is to create a JUST economic, political and social system on Earth.

It appears to me this notion of "Pure Islam" exists only in the heads of Muslims. There certainly doesn't appear to be any one society where "Pure Islam" is practiced. All I hear at least, is visions of a perfect Islamic society, and then too, opinions differ as to what it would be.

Will this fantasy ever be fulfilled? The world is heading towards anything BUT a Muslim caliphate that practices "Pure Islam". Has it ever existed at all, except for historical references to 600 AD?

How about considering reality and accepting that perhaps Islam is just not binding enough to fulfill this fantasy.

[Zechariah]

Originally Posted by Boys_played_well It appears to me this notion of "Pure Islam" exists only in the heads of Muslims. There certainly doesn't appear to be any one society where "Pure Islam" is practiced. All I hear at least, is visions of a perfect Islamic society, and then too, opinions differ as to what it would be.

Its not practised as it should be and people dont think about what they practise and most of the practises are manmade... therein lies the problem.. Quran strongly advocates critical thinking and never following anything and anyone blindly.. but u know the Muslims of today.. no critical thinking whatsoever..

Will this fantasy ever be fulfilled? The world is heading towards anything BUT a Muslim caliphate that practices "Pure Islam". Has it ever existed at all, except for historical references to 600 AD?

Its not a fantasy, put it simply its a just eocnomic, political and social system and none of the practises found today are Islamic, if you take out some aspects of Western societies and look at thier human rights and welfare systems - you will find Islamic ssystems in them, but unfortunatly Muslims have made Islam a religions of beards, and topis and blind Jihad by some of the Mullahs who politicized it.

How about considering reality and accepting that perhaps Islam is just not binding enough to fulfill this fantasy.

I follow Islam, nothing wrong with it but what I see muslims doing is different than what Islam teaches.

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by Zechariah Its not practised as it should be and people dont think about what they practise and most of the practises are manmade... therein lies the problem.. Quran strongly advocates critical thinking and never following anything and anyone blindly.. but u know the Muslims of today.. no critical thinking whatsoever.. Its not a fantasy, put it simply its a just eocnomic, political and social system and none of the practises found today are Islamic, if you take out some aspects of Western societies and look at thier human rights and welfare systems - you will find Islamic ssystems in them, but unfortunatly Muslims have made Islam a religions of beards, and topis and blind Jihad by some of the Mullahs who politicized it. I follow Islam, nothing wrong with it but what I see muslims doing is different than what Islam teaches.

So does it simply mean that Muslims all over the world are incompetent? And mind you, Muslims come from all races and regions of the world, so you can't really single out a reason and say they are incompetent because of that. In fact, the common denominator amongst all Muslims is Islam.

And if being provided the most perfect religion is not enough, what will bring Muslims on the "right path"? I mean, it has been 1400 years now...surely enough time to figure it out! In fact, things are probably getting worse for Muslims - so they are not even headed in the right direction.

[Zechariah]

Originally Posted by Boys_played_well So does it simply mean that Muslims all over the world are incompetent? And mind you, Muslims come from all races and regions of the world, so you can't really single out a reason and say they are incompetent because of that. In fact, the common denominator amongst all Muslims is Islam. And if being provided the most perfect religion is not enough, what will bring Muslims on the "right path"? I mean, it has been 1400 years now...surely enough time to figure it out! In fact, things are probably getting worse for Muslims - so they are not even headed in the right direction.

The real Muslims are the silent majority who have given Mullahs the sole power to rule thier religious lives.. this is where the problem began and if you look at documentaries on moors in Spain you would see a different Islamic society than you see today.. I am not saying today's Muslims are incompetant.. I am saying that those who are the caretakers of Islam today [ the likes of saudi and greedy mullahs in Pakistan] are running the show and the silent majority, the good scholars.. well as soon as they come out they are killed or ridiucled.. has happened in pakistan many times over the decades, any scholar who talks sanity and common sense is put do death by the ones who want to run the show.

Islam did not begin 1400 years ago, it was completed.

[Wazeeri]

Will this fantasy ever be fulfilled? The world is heading towards anything BUT a Muslim caliphate that practices "Pure Islam". Has it ever existed at all, except for historical references to 600 AD? How about considering reality and accepting that perhaps Islam is just not binding enough to fulfill this fantasy.

The muslim ummah not so long ago has gone through a complete take over from foreign forces. A whole super power was totally destroyed and muslims who followed it left without an identity.

Do you expect them to be running a eutopia?

Islamic nations throughout history have been relatively closer to a perfect society than all others. Inshallah we will reclaim that status again.

[isr]

Originally Posted by Boys_played_well So does it simply mean that Muslims all over the world are incompetent? And mind you, Muslims come from all races and regions of the world, so you can't really single out a reason and say they are incompetent because of that. In fact, the common denominator amongst all Muslims is Islam. And if being provided the most perfect religion is not enough, what will bring Muslims on the "right path"? I mean, it has been 1400 years now...surely enough time to figure it out! In fact, things are probably getting worse for Muslims - so they are not even headed in the right direction.

What complete idiocy is this? You start with the dumbest of all assumptions - "that nowhere in the world is Islam practised in its true form". This statement by itself is so full of bull.

How would you know? Do you know every Muslim? Do you even know what Islam is, so that if you saw a Muslim who STRIVED to be a good Muslim, would you even recognise it?

You're a complete simpleton. You take sensationalist headlines from around the world, and from the deeds of a few, you extrapolate that all 1 billion + Muslims are in need of spiritual realignment.

Why the hell are you even here? What is your contribution here, other than to spout complete nonsense and drivel on Islam, on Muslims, etc etc. By your own admission, your an Islamo-phobe. So what the heck are you doing here?

And don't give me any tosh about "attempting to engage in enlightened debate". That line has been trotted out far too frequently lately, by total FRAUDS like yourself, JK, etc etc.

Where's the "enlightened debate" in anything you post? Every one of your scummy posts STARTS with the bald-faced conclusion "all Muslims are misguided, Islam is bunk", and just carries on from there.

If thats what you think a debate is, no wonder you're on this forum. You must have no one in real life who is willing to talk with you without laughing at you.

Bloody keyboard warriors. Crusading legends, but only in their own minds. With self-delusions of being modern-day versions of Plato or Aristotle - but with the critical faculties and logical reasoning a 10 year old could smash.

Makes you wonder sometimes - an IQ test ought to be administered before some of you lot get keyboards from your Daddies. Everytime I waste my time responding to you lot, I feel myself getting a little bit dumber.

[foojam]

Originally Posted by isr What complete idiocy is this? You start with the dumbest of all assumptions - "that nowhere in the world is Islam practised in its true form". This statement by itself is so full of bull. How would you know? Do you know every Muslim? Do you even know what Islam is, so that if you saw a Muslim who STRIVED to be a good Muslim, would you even recognise it? You're a complete simpleton. You take sensationalist headlines from around the world, and from the deeds of a few, you extrapolate that all 1 billion + Muslims are in need of spiritual realignment. Why the hell are you even here? What is your contribution here, other than to spout complete nonsense and drivel on Islam, on Muslims, etc etc. By your own admission, your an Islamo-phobe. So what the heck are you doing here? And don't give me any tosh about "attempting to engage in enlightened debate". That line has been trotted out far too frequently lately, by total FRAUDS like yourself, JK, etc etc. Where's the "enlightened debate" in anything you post? Every one of your scummy posts STARTS with the bald-faced conclusion "all Muslims are misguided, Islam is bunk", and just carries on from there. If thats what you think a debate is, no wonder you're on this forum. You must have no one in real life who is willing to talk with you without laughing at you. Bloody keyboard warriors. Crusading legends, but only in their own minds. With self-delusions of being modern-day versions of Plato or Aristotle - but with the critical faculties and logical reasoning a 10 year old could smash. Makes you wonder sometimes - an IQ test ought to be administered before some of you lot get keyboards from your Daddies. Everytime I waste my time responding to you lot, I feel myself getting a little bit dumber.

god u are so boring...