India tests Agni3 with a range of over 3500KM

[MIG]

Who are they expecting to hit - must be enough to clear Pakistan so should Iran and China be concerned?

Whats the Indian strategy here?

[surfer]

Good for India. I dont think defense powers are created and tested with an intention of hitting someone particular. You just strengthen yourself so that you could ensure best security to your citizens.

[MIG]

That is whats known as a "motherhood" statement - essentially means nothing...

When you develop an offensive weapon, you are doing exactly that - to say that it somehow protects its citizens is nonsense.

Who are Indias main threats: I would say apart from Pakistan, no one! China isnt interested in attacking India - nor is Iran ( who is an Indian sympathizer)

Fact is that India wants to project power far beyond its borders - sooner or later it will get into loggerheads with the US - that is when the fun will really begin.

[Daoud]

It does fit in with their hegemonic desires. Of course they wont be using the missile but its shadow will be cast over the region

[purplehaze]

I read this in CNBC site today
A news next to this was like "Woman stripped for refusing to join CPM rally .."


To me both news complimented each other very nicely... sigh!

[dinakar]

Originally Posted by MIG Who are they expecting to hit - must be enough to clear Pakistan so should Iran and China be concerned? Whats the Indian strategy here?

hmm.. we should launch it from KanyaKumari just kidding

[moumotta]

This is to provide retailation capabilities against chnese missiles. The arguments would be along the same lines as Pakistan's to match India's nuclear advance.

[MIG]

I understand that Indias real threat in nuclear terms comes from Pak - but what do they expect to gain from a 3.5K range missile?

[observer1]

3500KM?

Kashmir aint that far from their Launch Pads is it?

jk !

[moumotta]

Originally Posted by observer1 3500KM? Kashmir aint that far from their Launch Pads is it? jk !

We could always send a mountaineering mission to climb Himalaya peaks and throw rocks at them.

[surfer]

Originally Posted by moumotta We could always send a mountaineering mission to climb Himalaya peaks and throw rocks at them.

[the Great Khan]

the missile is aimed at China and is a force projection weapon..India has dreams of hegemony and being a superpower both militarily and economically...this missile will keep the chinese on their toes especially with the ongoing border disputes up north...The chinese will always view India as a strategic rival especially with the new US relationship with India...they both have competing goals and sooner or later they will come into conflict in some form...

[moumotta]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan the missile is aimed at China and is a force projection weapon..India has dreams of hegemony and being a superpower both militarily and economically...this missile will keep the chinese on their toes especially with the ongoing border disputes up north...The chinese will always view India as a strategic rival especially with the new US relationship with India...they both have competing goals and sooner or later they will come into conflict in some form...

That may or may not be correct but right now it is a question of keeping chinese hegemony in check or at least be ready to defend against them when need be.

[MIG]

Are we saying that a tiddly little missile will put to rest any designs by the Chinese? What force can India project over the Chinese? This is a foolish mesure - all that does is gets China to go bigger military wise - no need for this.

Sometimes, I wish that India would realize that its strength as the world class provider of skills is twenty times bigger than any small firework they can throw at their neighbours...

[moumotta]

Originally Posted by MIG Are we saying that a tiddly little missile will put to rest any designs by the Chinese? What force can India project over the Chinese? This is a foolish mesure - all that does is gets China to go bigger military wise - no need for this. Sometimes, I wish that India would realize that its strength as the world class provider of skills is twenty times bigger than any small firework they can throw at their neighbours...

Wish it was that simple but you realise that defence is not about having a winning force. It is about having just enough force to threaten the enemy with unacceptable damages.

[DM]

The drive to hegemony is proportional to power. That's a historical truism.

Solution in a miniscule nutshell is to change unaccountable tyrannies like corporations and non functioning accountability like the current form of top-down government, ie oligarchy (in this day and age there's barely a true democracy in sight, Venzuela, Brazil, not many others).

[161]

3500KM ... just about far enough to reach Bahrain

[McBoom]

I wonder if the claims of the distance reached by the missile are true or not. They sugar coated the results last time and then eventually accepted that the missile programme was a failure and had to scrap it & start all over again.

[moumotta]

Originally Posted by kashif77 3500KM ... just about far enough to reach Bahrain

Delhi- Beijing 3700KM

It wouldn't even cover all of china.

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by MIG Are we saying that a tiddly little missile will put to rest any designs by the Chinese? What force can India project over the Chinese? This is a foolish mesure - all that does is gets China to go bigger military wise - no need for this. Sometimes, I wish that India would realize that its strength as the world class provider of skills is twenty times bigger than any small firework they can throw at their neighbours...

That tiddly missile can carry a nuclear warhead of several kilo-tons

[Daoud]

Originally Posted by moumotta Delhi- Beijing 3700KM It wouldn't even cover all of china.

Bahrain isnt in China, its a tiny insignificant island in the Arabian Gulf, home of a US naval base and Miggy

[moumotta]

Originally Posted by Daoud Bahrain isnt in China, its a tiny insignificant island in the Arabian Gulf, home of a US naval base and Miggy

I get the significance now

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by moumotta Delhi- Beijing 3700KM It wouldn't even cover all of china.

Agni 4 will be complete in 3 months and is reputed to be capable of a 5000 Km range

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by moumotta Delhi- Beijing 3700KM It wouldn't even cover all of china.

Agni 4 will be complete in 3 months and is reputed to be capable of a 5000 Km range

[MIG]

Originally Posted by Indiafan That tiddly missile can carry a nuclear warhead of several kilo-tons

and you think China will respond with a bowl of noodles ?

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by MIG and you think China will respond with a bowl of noodles ?

Its only for the threat value. If you strike we can retaliate too kind of thing

[moumotta]

Originally Posted by MIG and you think China will respond with a bowl of noodles ?

You are turning the argument on its head. The tiddly missile is so that we can respond with more than just hot curry to an uninvited loadful of chinese sorty.

[MIG]

My point is that India is spending time and money on something that will propel them into an arms race with US as its only logical end.

Yes, identify your current threats ( Pakistan is one) and neutralize that threat but to try and create these missiles sends out a message that can have no good consquences.

India for its wealth is still a poor nation - people on the streets and slums need to see the benefit of its advancement - take a leaf out of Britain or other European countries.

India has some smart minds - they need to stop the Govt from wasting money like this - unfortunately anyone saying this aloud in India will be considered unpatriotic - what a tragedy that is!

[moumotta]

Duplicate- deleted

[moumotta]

Originally Posted by MIG My point is that India is spending time and money on something that will propel them into an arms race with US as its only logical end. Yes, identify your current threats ( Pakistan is one) and neutralize that threat but to try and create these missiles sends out a message that can have no good consquences. India for its wealth is still a poor nation - people on the streets and slums need to see the benefit of its advancement - take a leaf out of Britain or other European countries. India has some smart minds - they need to stop the Govt from wasting money like this - unfortunately anyone saying this aloud in India will be considered unpatriotic - what a tragedy that is!

To be brutally honest Pakistan is not really a threat. It is at worst a nuisance. The threat is China.

[MIG]

I have heard that before - but I think you are mistaken. The only reason Pakistan is not a threat is due to Pakistans N capability. Since the avenue of exerting Indias will on Pakistan is now closed due to Paks own Nukes, India can view this as a nuisance.

China is NOT a threat - they havent been able to do anything against a small country like Taiwan - why would they attack India ?

[Toony™®]

Originally Posted by moumotta Delhi- Beijing 3700KM It wouldn't even cover all of china.

As if they need to launch their missiles from delhi - could be from Bihar.

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by Toony™® As if they need to launch their missiles from delhi - could be from Bihar.

Will be from one of the north-East states, maybe even from Tibet

[Daoud]

The main launch site is somewhere near the Bay of Bengal. Some island I believe

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by Daoud The main launch site is somewhere near the Bay of Bengal. Some island I believe

No, these missiles have a portable launcher and can be launched from anywhere

[rauled]

Originally Posted by MIG Are we saying that a tiddly little missile will put to rest any designs by the Chinese? What force can India project over the Chinese? This is a foolish mesure - all that does is gets China to go bigger military wise - no need for this. Sometimes, I wish that India would realize that its strength as the world class provider of skills is twenty times bigger than any small firework they can throw at their neighbours...

Do you realise why Pakistan conducted nuclear tests after India did ?
- -As a deterrant

China has nuclear missiles that can reach any corner of India. India too needs such missiles to be able to reach every part of China - - so as to deter China from any aggresive military postures.

For Pakistan, India may be the biggest and only concern, but India has concerns other than Pakistan.

[Big Daddy]

Damn those Koreans, we are losing this race.

[switchblade]

Ultimately, India and Pakistan must be wary of the Chinese.. though you may not realize it now, and think allying with China is good for your short term security against India.

[switchblade]

Chinese are after resources.. and their insulated mindset is just like those of Nazi germany.

They want everything to the betterment of the HAN race - eugenics is a STATE policy and accepted practice there.. if any baby is born defective, its simply terminated at birth.

Ahmedinejaad, when questioned about gays in Iran, said that "we dont have that problem".

Similarly Chinese dont have that problem because they practice eugenics as a state policy.

SOme of you might complain that India discriminates against muslims and people of other religions.. Consider China.. the way they treat Uighurs is really shameful.. no political representation to any minority, no basic rights.. even the practice of their religion is supposed to be muted.. only last year or so they even allowed muslims to go on Haj. India has had 3 muslim presidents, muslims and various minorities are omnipresent in the Indian cultural mileau. At the time of independence, muslim population in India was just 10% or less. Now they are nearly 25%. Same with Christians.. minorities are growing.

Not to mention they suffer a serious inferiority complex towards japanese, which they project as "hate".

And dont tell me Pakistanis feel more comfortable on a personal level interacting with a Chinese than an Indian - all this politics of religion is temporary but ultimately there is some underlying racial and cultural ties that bind us together.. rather than with Chinese or Whties or blacks.

[Parosi_Lurker]

Originally Posted by MIG Are we saying that a tiddly little missile will put to rest any designs by the Chinese? What force can India project over the Chinese? This is a foolish mesure - all that does is gets China to go bigger military wise - no need for this. Sometimes, I wish that India would realize that its strength as the world class provider of skills is twenty times bigger than any small firework they can throw at their neighbours...

Arent they already?? You somehow come across as suggesting India will kickstart an Arms race in the region. Here are the facts:

Miltary expenditure% of GDP:
India - 2.5%
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat....html#Military
Pakistan - 3.2%
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat....html#Military
China - 4.3%
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat....html#Military

In other words China > Pakistan > India when it comes to military expense.

And yes this is designed against China. When China has the capability to hit India it is only fair that India should have that capaibility as well. Much as China(and India) may deny ambitions/desires of hegemony it is fairly straightforward to see that these two emerging countries are defining world in many ways, and definitely Asia. There are going to be clashes both economic and strategic and it is only correct India watches its back.

xxx

[MIG]

He WB PL - I knew you this would lure you back....

So India watching its back by matching China in its defence expenditure is the way to go forward?

Remember, the world cannot take a replay of the Cold War again - there is just too much at stake

[switchblade]

Originally Posted by Parosi_Lurker Miltary expenditure% of GDP: India - 2.5% https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat....html#Military Pakistan - 3.2% https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat....html#Military China - 4.3% https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat....html#Military In other words China > Pakistan > India when it comes to military expense. And yes this is designed against China. When China has the capability to hit India it is only fair that India should have that capaibility as well. Much as China(and India) may deny ambitions/desires of hegemony it is fairly straightforward to see that these two emerging countries are defining world in many ways, and definitely Asia. There are going to be clashes both economic and strategic and it is only correct India watches its back. xxx

Good point.. but the worst thing is we dont have any SLBM version of AGNI-III yet.. China has SLBMs since 1982.

Latest Chinese JL-2 SLBM has a range of 8000KM+.

India hasnt even tested an SLBM version of Agni-1 yet

[Parosi_Lurker]

Originally Posted by MIG So India watching its back by matching China in its defence expenditure is the way to go forward? Remember, the world cannot take a replay of the Cold War again - there is just too much at stake

Thanks for the welcome Miggy saab.

Yes it is the way to go forward whether we like it or not. India and China have had bad relations and there has been atleast 1 war fought between the two countries. So there is more than an element of suspicion here. There is also the unknown factor that comes with China. India(or Pakistan) are more "worldly" in the sense they do listen to world opinion. If tomorrow a war happens(hopefully not) you can expect Indian and Pakistan thinktank to listen to the US/USSRs of this world. China will show their thumb to the world opinion, as clearly observed in Tianmen Square. Bottomline being in case of aggression/hostility India has to watch its back against China. Simple.

xxx

[the Great Khan]

the only reason pakistan listens to world opinion is because we are too weak to stick two fingers up...the Chinese dont need to listen to world opinion as much...The indians face a strategic threat from China as they feel they are slowly being encircled on all sides by Chinese strategic alliances and forces..with Gwadar opening soon and the liklihood of chinese forces frequenting the port on "goodwill" visits and exercises, their alliance with bangladesh, support for nepal and Burma and movement into disputed territory in the north of India, as well as arming and equipping our armed forces, is seen as a major danger to indian interests...

as pakistan has a semi autonomous foreign policy any foreign military manuvering we engage in is seen as a strategic advantage for the Chinese...e.g our support for the sri lankan govt....

India wants to control the malacca straits and try and monopolise the corridor to the middle east so it can secure its oil supplies...we along with China intend to prevent this from happening...hence why India needs larger range missiles , as it has many more facing back at it from both Pak and china...

also as for this nuisance talk, well if we were such a nuisance why would India have developed a whole doctrine called cold start that is almost 100% pak centric? no Indian ground army can invade china, no indian airforce can fight the PLAAF,...no indian navy can go up against the Chinese..hence the need for a weapon of last resort....all the above forces are pak centric, from the strike corps to the airforce!...

on our side we maintain a minimum deterrence...we will try and hold our skies and hold the line with the counter attacks on given points of the defensive line so we can bargain once a ceasefire is agreed....but we have always said we will never hesitate to use them first!!...that is why India now has to think 100 times before even thinking about crossing the border...thats what they want China to do when thinking of hurting India..

[switchblade]

I think Pakistan will repent in its own way for surrendering to the two modern epitomes of greed - USA and CHINA.

Instead of improving relations with India, Pak govt is hell bent on encircling India by being a doormat of the ch*&ks.

Chinese merely want to use Pak against India, and if possible grab any resources available in your country and move on.

I think the future generations of Pak will repent this "alliance" as the 21st century is going to sound the death knell for Pak.

Enmity with India is not as dangerous as friendship with US or China, remember dat.

[Plasma]

Looks like Pakistan's Shaheen III and Ghauri III should be rolling out soon then.

[Parosi_Lurker]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan the only reason pakistan listens to world opinion is because we are too weak to stick two fingers up...

I would much rather put that to sub-continent humility but if you think about your country/countrymen like that all powers to you.

the Chinese dont need to listen to world opinion as much...The indians face a strategic threat from China as they feel they are slowly being encircled on all sides by Chinese strategic alliances and forces..

By that token China already has been encircled. Who is China encircling India with? Pakistan? Nepal? Bangladesh? How about Russia? Japan? Taiwan? And of course India? Between the two streams it doesnt take a whole lot to imagine who I will much rather be encircled with.

India wants to control the malacca straits and try and monopolise the corridor to the middle east so it can secure its oil supplies...we along with China intend to prevent this from happening...hence why India needs larger range missiles , as it has many more facing back at it from both Pak and china...

And India has every right to do so. Not only that China realizes very well that every trade that it has to do to Southern part of equator will invariably go via Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal and guess who is the power there. There is no way China can establish trade with Middle Eastern countries, Africa and beyond unless it a) befriends India b) creates a land/sea route through some other country(in this case Pakistan).

also as for this nuisance talk, well if we were such a nuisance why would India have developed a whole doctrine called cold start that is almost 100% pak centric?

That is called living in la la land. Dil ke khush rahne ko Ghalib yeh khayal accha hai and all that.

Arre bhale aadmi, read up this very post. It is about a missile system that has a range wayyyyy beyond Pakistan. That itself should nuke your whole argument of 100% Pakistan centric and all that jazz. Sure lot of policies are made with an eye on Pakistan, why not? We have fought 4 wars, have supported hostilities in both country, keep fighting at World Foras, came close to 1 Nuke war. What do you expect? But to think Indian policy is Pakistan centric is off the mark.

no Indian ground army can invade china, no indian airforce can fight the PLAAF,...no indian navy can go up against the Chinese..hence the need for a weapon of last resort....

Why not?

Indian Defence Services can easily launch inside China. Whether they do it or not is a different question altogether but you seem to somehow suggest that Indian Defence services are some 3rd world service not capable at all.

on our side we maintain a minimum deterrence...we will try and hold our skies and hold the line with the counter attacks on given points of the defensive line so we can bargain once a ceasefire is agreed....but we have always said we will never hesitate to use them first!!...that is why India now has to think 100 times before even thinking about crossing the border...thats what they want China to do when thinking of hurting India..

That should make you wonder the meaning of the word hypocracy, certainly made me wonder.

On one hand you say it is a detterent. Deterrent originates from the word "deter" which means discouraging someone to do an act. In this case Pakistan having N bomb shall discourage India in case the latter has any idea of invading Pakistan. Fair enough.

Then you say, and I quote, we have always said we will never hesitate to use it first. Hows that for an act of discouragement!! That a simple act of bellicose nature which simply portrays Pakistan as an irresponsible Nuclear power. Period. You dont go about claiming you are gonna nuke some other country. And certainly no country says Hey we have it as a deterrant but we are gonna use it first as well!

xxx

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Parosi_Lurker ...Then you say, and I quote, we have always said we will never hesitate to use it first. Hows that for an act of discouragement!! That a simple act of bellicose nature which simply portrays Pakistan as an irresponsible Nuclear power. Period. You dont go about claiming you are gonna nuke some other country. And certainly no country says Hey we have it as a deterrant but we are gonna use it first as well!...

Well it is not being irresponsible but using the weapon you have been building for years and putting resources in. No one is building it so that you can use it after being struck by it. I don't know what Pakistan's stance is but it is better to say that we will use it if we need to, instead of saying we will use it if used against us. When you cannot fight a major war you use all means possible is probably what army thinks. And this will probably benefit to both sides. Will Pakistan use it, nobody knows

Is Pakistan stance different then USA? Does USA have preemptive strike usage of weapon? How many other countries have it? (I don't know)

[kablooee87]

MIG, it's called flexing your muscles. What exactly don't you understand?

They don't (necessarily) NEED it. It just sends a statement.

[rauled]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan also as for this nuisance talk, well if we were such a nuisance why would India have developed a whole doctrine called cold start that is almost 100% pak centric? no Indian ground army can invade china, no indian airforce can fight the PLAAF,...no indian navy can go up against the Chinese..hence the need for a weapon of last resort....all the above forces are pak centric, from the strike corps to the airforce!...

.......thats B.S. India's airforce and navy is at par if not better than Chinese.

[MIG]

Originally Posted by kablooee87 MIG, it's called flexing your muscles. What exactly don't you understand? They don't (necessarily) NEED it. It just sends a statement.

Its also called a waste of money that can go to feed your poor.

I dont subscribe to this muscle theory at all.

[Zechariah]

Originally Posted by MIG Its also called a waste of money that can go to feed your poor. I dont subscribe to this muscle theory at all.

MIG bhai taking measures for self-defense is as important as eradicating poverty. Quran makes it clear for all Muslims that we must always take measures for self defense at all times and should be ready at all times.

But it India or Pakistan, self defense is a must and no nation can live without it. Without strength there is no peace, i.e. Iraq.

If people of the subcontinent were not weak and had taken measures to defend themselves, do you think the Brits would have ever Invaded it? If Iraq was a strong force would they have invaded it? If Pakistan was like Congo right now, would anyone stop them from coming in?

Self defense is a must no matter what.

[Boys_played_well]

I am with those who say that a country like India has higher priorities than developing missiles it will never use.

I would rather they feed and clothe the hundreds of millions of starving, homeless people, than send some message to China which will likely be ignored anyway.

[MIG]

Bhaio - I understand why India did this - just defies my personal "migsian" logic - I feel that the new powers of this world dont need to play the same game that the older ones have played forever.

Fact is that China is not sitting around waiting to invade anyone.

India has enough conventional muscle to deter China or even the States for that matter.

I suppose apart from a little political impact for the home crowd, nothing has changed in terms of the balance of power.

[switchblade]

Originally Posted by rauled .......thats B.S. India's airforce and navy is at par if not better than Chinese.

Bet some of our forumnites are just going by the numbers.. thats why they got the notion that Chinese airforce is superior.

Chinese airforce outnumbers indian by a 8:1 ratio.. but many of their existing fleet are fabled flying corpses.

The joint Sino-Pak multi-role fighter JF-17 Chengdu is untested.. they claim sun and moon with it.. but its not a tried and tested product like our Su-30mki.

It also uses the same RUssian engines.. design is a copy of russian Mig-29.. but they fitted it with BVAAR and other advanced radar and put a made in China stamp.

The Chinese jingoists contend that JF-17 is even more advanced than anything else, even though its only a 4th gen. Thats just hogwash - typical CCP hogwash that extols anything they do as "best in the world".

India will be getting some F-22 raptors from US - that easily kick this JF-17 a$$ royally.. further more, the 5th gen fighter being designed with RUssia... as well as indigenous MCA...are two great prospects.

[switchblade]

Chinese Navy ? well, no body would've believed it was better than Indian one, but they recently commissioned half a dozen nuke subs out of blue.. India has none currently as our only nuke sub got decommissioned recently.. they are arming themselves to the teeth like the wicked ORK armies of Saruman.

[Big Daddy]

i think its time pakistan provides aid to north korea again.

[MIG]

Oi Korea ka peecha chor day yaar - har teen minute mai lekar ajata hai korea ko...

[mani1]

Originally Posted by switchblade Bet some of our forumnites are just going by the numbers.. thats why they got the notion that Chinese airforce is superior. Chinese airforce outnumbers indian by a 8:1 ratio.. but many of their existing fleet are fabled flying corpses. The joint Sino-Pak multi-role fighter JF-17 Chengdu is untested.. they claim sun and moon with it.. but its not a tried and tested product like our Su-30mki. It also uses the same RUssian engines.. design is a copy of russian Mig-29.. but they fitted it with BVAAR and other advanced radar and put a made in China stamp. The Chinese jingoists contend that JF-17 is even more advanced than anything else, even though its only a 4th gen. Thats just hogwash - typical CCP hogwash that extols anything they do as "best in the world". India will be getting some F-22 raptors from US - that easily kick this JF-17 a$$ royally.. further more, the 5th gen fighter being designed with RUssia... as well as indigenous MCA...are two great prospects.

Were you get that from any link even israel havnt got any.
You think india could afford them

[Indieview]

It is F18, there is only proposals that this could include F22 as well nothing concrete .... Signed

[MIG]

Infantile talk of military superiority.

The level of debate when it comes to military matters is simplistic to say the least.

Problem is that people who most like to talk about these things are the ones who havent seen human suffering caused by weapons.

Sad.

[Wiji]

Originally Posted by Zechariah MIG bhai taking measures for self-defense is as important as eradicating poverty. Quran makes it clear for all Muslims that we must always take measures for self defense at all times and should be ready at all times. But it India or Pakistan, self defense is a must and no nation can live without it. Without strength there is no peace, i.e. Iraq. If people of the subcontinent were not weak and had taken measures to defend themselves, do you think the Brits would have ever Invaded it? If Iraq was a strong force would they have invaded it? If Pakistan was like Congo right now, would anyone stop them from coming in? Self defense is a must no matter what.

The use of nuclear missiles involves indiscriminate mass-murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. That does not count as self-defense in my books.

[Wiji]

Pakistan test-fires nuclear-capable cruise missile ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) — Pakistan said it test-fired a short-range cruise missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead Thursday, one day after archrival India test-fired a long-range missile with nuclear capability. The 220-mile-range Pakistani missile, known as the Ra'ad or Hatf VIII, was developed exclusively for launch from aircraft, a military statement said. The statement did not disclose the launch site but said the missile "has special stealth capabilities," and is a "low altitude, terrain-following missile with high maneuverability." The missile "can deliver all types of warheads with great accuracy," the military said. Pakistan became a declared nuclear power in 1998 by conducting nuclear tests in response to those by India. Since then, the South Asian neighbors have both routinely test-fired missiles. On Wednesday, India test-fired the Agni III, its longest-range missile designed to reach 1,900 miles — putting China's major cities as well some targets deep in the Middle East into range. India's missile was launched from Wheeler Island off the eastern state of Orissa and is believed to be capable of carrying a 300-kiloton nuclear warhead. India and Pakistan have fought three wars since gaining independence from Britain in 1947. Their relations have improved since 2004 when they began a peace process aimed at resolving their core dispute over the divided Himalayan region of Kashmir.

Why am I not surprised?

[Parosi_Lurker]

Originally Posted by MIG Bhaio - I understand why India did this - just defies my personal "migsian" logic - I feel that the new powers of this world dont need to play the same game that the older ones have played forever.

Arre bhaiya Miggy I see your viewpoint but I am afraid you are unable to see mine.

To put some numbers here, India's expenditure on Military is less than half to that of China. In terms of %age of GDP India's expenditure is less than that of China, Pakistan. Heck it matches(in %age terms) that spent by Sri Lanka(sourced from CIA World Fact book). So these argument of India wasting money does not really hold water, does it?

Poverty eradication is a seperate issue and yes one that needs serious address. However one should also realize that while the number of Indians below poverty line was around 35% of total population in early 90s by early 2000s it was around 25%(CIA fact book again) and by all indicators it is probably around 20% now. Point being poverty is also going down. That does not mean all's done. 20% of India is still a large number but if half of the people have moved from below poverty line to now above(within a decade) that shows the country is on right track.

[switchblade]

Originally Posted by mani1 Were you get that from any link even israel havnt got any. You think india could afford them

Bush offered them to India, to placate our protests for the F-16 delivery to Pak. India hasnt committed to it.

[Muddaser]

Originally Posted by switchblade Bush offered them to India, to placate our protests for the F-16 delivery to Pak. India hasnt committed to it.

Bush Offered F-18 super Hornet.

The Americans are reluctant to give F-22s to Israel Forget India.

Its the most advanced fighter on the planet with the most advanced tech. It aint going anywhere.

Not to forget that America needs to meet its own requirements first which will take over a deacde for them to produce and at 200-300 million per unit without weapons etc.

You really think India has THAT much to spend?

[switchblade]

Originally Posted by Muddaser Bush Offered F-18 super Hornet. The Americans are reluctant to give F-22s to Israel Forget India. Its the most advanced fighter on the planet with the most advanced tech. It aint going anywhere. Not to forget that America needs to meet its own requirements first which will take over a deacde for them to produce and at 200-300 million per unit without weapons etc. You really think India has THAT much to spend?

Ya, u r rite.. Its F-18, not F-22.

[Zechariah]

Originally Posted by Wiji The use of nuclear missiles involves indiscriminate mass-murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. That does not count as self-defense in my books.

When your neighbor makes it, do we have a choice? When America, Russia and China make it, does the world have a choice?

[MCMLXXXII]

Originally Posted by Parosi_Lurker Arre bhaiya Miggy I see your viewpoint but I am afraid you are unable to see mine. To put some numbers here, India's expenditure on Military is less than half to that of China. In terms of %age of GDP India's expenditure is less than that of China, Pakistan. Heck it matches(in %age terms) that spent by Sri Lanka(sourced from CIA World Fact book). So these argument of India wasting money does not really hold water, does it? Poverty eradication is a seperate issue and yes one that needs serious address. However one should also realize that while the number of Indians below poverty line was around 35% of total population in early 90s by early 2000s it was around 25%(CIA fact book again) and by all indicators it is probably around 20% now. Point being poverty is also going down. That does not mean all's done. 20% of India is still a large number but if half of the people have moved from below poverty line to now above(within a decade) that shows the country is on right track.

By that logic, when you look at Defense expenditure per capita, India barely spends anything at all!

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by MCMLXXXII By that logic, when you look at Defense expenditure per capita, India barely spends anything at all!

Exactly! Comparing India's defense expenditure to Sri Lanka is jokes, I dont care what criteria you use.. %, sum value, whatever.

Point is: India spends more than it needs to on defense. 20% of India lives below the poverty line (less than $1/day), which is abject hopeless poverty. That doesn't mean only 20% of Indians are poor! FYI - people working as domestic help, truck drivers, small street shop vendors, plumbers, janitors, construction workers, etc. who also live in extreme poverty are NOT included in this 20% because they somehow manage to scrape more than a $1/day. Do you think they have enough food to eat, clean water to drink/bathe, access to school for kids? umm NO.

China overspends, so does Pakistan, so do several other countries. Let's realize there is a world of difference between China and it's neighbors. Look at their infrastructure and the general health of their society, and then you'll see why it's NOT OK to say "we only spend half of what China spends on arms".

[hussain_0216]

The possession of certain weapons is very important, missile technology being one of them...


A nation must be prepared to defend itself...

I am not fussed about the Agni, its important Pakistan forges ahead with our missile development.

The Babur, Ghauri, Shaheen are all worthy missiles.

Pakistan has a cruise missile the longer range babur and shorter range Raad...
We have missiles which reach from 2000km to 35000 km,, our next step is the developing of TIPU which could be our 5000km+ missile....

These are deterrents, Pakistan has a big need to be able to defend itself and deter attack from the likes of India, USA or Nato, (maybe not immediately but eventually)

[switchblade]

Originally Posted by Boys_played_well Exactly! Comparing India's defense expenditure to Sri Lanka is jokes, I dont care what criteria you use.. %, sum value, whatever. Point is: India spends more than it needs to on defense. 20% of India lives below the poverty line (less than $1/day), which is abject hopeless poverty. That doesn't mean only 20% of Indians are poor! FYI - people working as domestic help, truck drivers, small street shop vendors, plumbers, janitors, construction workers, etc. who also live in extreme poverty are NOT included in this 20% because they somehow manage to scrape more than a $1/day. Do you think they have enough food to eat, clean water to drink/bathe, access to school for kids? umm NO. China overspends, so does Pakistan, so do several other countries. Let's realize there is a world of difference between China and it's neighbors. Look at their infrastructure and the general health of their society, and then you'll see why it's NOT OK to say "we only spend half of what China spends on arms".

a Huge population of Pakistan also lives in abject poverty..

In China, they hide off all peasants in the countryside and dont let them come to cities and form slums so you see glittering cities..

Their countryside is filled with squalor and much greater resentment against authority than India.

[the Great Khan]

ahh its parosi lurker again..sometimes i wonder should i bother??


ok lets address your points then...

By that token China already has been encircled. Who is China encircling India with? Pakistan? Nepal? Bangladesh? How about Russia? Japan? Taiwan? And of course India? Between the two streams it doesnt take a whole lot to imagine who I will much rather be encircled with.

russia at the moment is not a strategic threat to the Chinese...they are actually working together to counter western moves in asia..but thats a whole different thread...in short they are no threat to China...yet..Japan? lol...the only way the japanese can be percieved as a real strategic threat rather than a nuisance is if they change their doctrine..at the moment they havent and dont look like they will just yet..overall they can be easily countered...Japans armed forces are no match for the chinese...as for Taiwan, well they have never really been a threat to China, just a way for the americans to interfere in this part of asia...ultimatley if war was to come taiwan would be eliminated within weeks...it would all depend on the pacific fleets response...a few sunburns would take care of them....

And India has every right to do so. Not only that China realizes very well that every trade that it has to do to Southern part of equator will invariably go via Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal and guess who is the power there. There is no way China can establish trade with Middle Eastern countries, Africa and beyond unless it a) befriends India b) creates a land/sea route through some other country(in this case Pakistan).

just like pakistan and china have the right to also..and here lies the conflict..India has no manifest destiny to rule the seas....and this sea and land route will be here in a handful of years when the indus highway joins the karakorum highway, and gwadar opens...

That is called living in la la land. Dil ke khush rahne ko Ghalib yeh khayal accha hai and all that. Arre bhale aadmi, read up this very post. It is about a missile system that has a range wayyyyy beyond Pakistan. That itself should nuke your whole argument of 100% Pakistan centric and all that jazz. Sure lot of policies are made with an eye on Pakistan, why not? We have fought 4 wars, have supported hostilities in both country, keep fighting at World Foras, came close to 1 Nuke war. What do you expect? But to think Indian policy is Pakistan centric is off the mark.

rigghhhtt..so let me get this straight...your holding the largest excercises ever for the past few weeks to demonstrate your new doctrine called cold start which if you read is so geared for Pakistan that its almost too transparent even for an idiot...and by the way where are these excercises being held? Rajasthan...!! enough said...if you dont understand the significance of that then your just being naive...

your military doctrine at the moment is heavily pakistan centric...it always was and always will be...ultimatley you cant win a war against China..your policy towards them is detterence and thats it...your strike corps are not going to Beijing anytime soon...they are facing us...it makes no military sense to think you can invade china by land...but pakistan now thats

Indian Defence Services can easily launch inside China. Whether they do it or not is a different question altogether but you seem to somehow suggest that Indian Defence services are some 3rd world service not capable at all. another story...

hahahaha....lol..lol.. im sorry i thought you were serious..oh were you? you seriously believe that the Indian armed forces can invade China, hold territory and achieve a victory over the PLA?? even the americans cant do that and know it..i didnt realise the mighty Bharat armed forces were even better than the americans!!..

On one hand you say it is a detterent. Deterrent originates from the word "deter" which means discouraging someone to do an act. In this case Pakistan having N bomb shall discourage India in case the latter has any idea of invading Pakistan. Fair enough. Then you say, and I quote, we have always said we will never hesitate to use it first. Hows that for an act of discouragement!! That a simple act of bellicose nature which simply portrays Pakistan as an irresponsible Nuclear power. Period. You dont go about claiming you are gonna nuke some other country. And certainly no country says Hey we have it as a deterrant but we are gonna use it first as well!

understand my context...if india invades Pakistan we will not hesitate to defend our nation by any means neccessary...your generals know it and so do your politicians..hence why things have calmed down alot since kargil...thats my point...

[the Great Khan]

Originally Posted by switchblade Bet some of our forumnites are just going by the numbers.. thats why they got the notion that Chinese airforce is superior. Chinese airforce outnumbers indian by a 8:1 ratio.. but many of their existing fleet are fabled flying corpses. The joint Sino-Pak multi-role fighter JF-17 Chengdu is untested.. they claim sun and moon with it.. but its not a tried and tested product like our Su-30mki. It also uses the same RUssian engines.. design is a copy of russian Mig-29.. but they fitted it with BVAAR and other advanced radar and put a made in China stamp. The Chinese jingoists contend that JF-17 is even more advanced than anything else, even though its only a 4th gen. Thats just hogwash - typical CCP hogwash that extols anything they do as "best in the world". India will be getting some F-22 raptors from US - that easily kick this JF-17 a$$ royally.. further more, the 5th gen fighter being designed with RUssia... as well as indigenous MCA...are two great prospects.

lol..i dont know whether to laugh or cry at the rubbish spewing from your mouth...maybe its the utter despair at seeing your precious LCA still sitting in its test hanger...right lets take your first contention..the amount of so called flying coffins in the chinese armed forces...now i dont have the order of battle in fron of me but they have large numbers of f7's, j8's etc//granted....they also have massive numbers of SU30MKk's, J-11B'S and SU-27's....these can all fire BVR missiles and outnumber your whole load of MKI's...they now also have the J-10 which during mock disimilar air combat has a favourable success rate against the SU-30...

as for junk, india still has MIG 21's,MIG 23'S, MIG 27'S and Jaguars...your most modern fighters are the SU30MKI,MIRAGE 2000 and MIG29'S....also you have recently bought the HAWK trainer from the brits and already crashed one...half are grounded...according to sources maintaining the su30's is a nightmare and the Mig29 is a known maintenance hog thanks to its RD-33 twin engine...so in short your airforce would be overwhelmed by the chinese before you knew what hit you....

and now to the JF17...its not an F22, but it is better than a F16A, and will hold its own against your MIGS due to its RCS, BVR etc...the paf is aiming to have a three tier airforce: top tier F16 blk52's with amraams, middle J10'S with SD10'S, and lower JF17 with sd10 and sidewinders....that will be more than enough to deter any adventures from yoruselves...with our awaec soon to be in the air over pakistan we will finally be able to ditch the aging mirages and F7's...

[switchblade]

Well Great Khan... your luv for China will be dead once you realize their true naturel.

And however you may deny it, blood is thicker than ideology.

Indians and Pakistanis should unite against China, not fight among themselves and give Chinese more scope to dominate and eventually absorb south asia, like it absorbed XinJiang and TIbet.

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by hussain_0216 The possession of certain weapons is very important, missile technology being one of them... A nation must be prepared to defend itself... I am not fussed about the Agni, its important Pakistan forges ahead with our missile development. The Babur, Ghauri, Shaheen are all worthy missiles. Pakistan has a cruise missile the longer range babur and shorter range Raad... We have missiles which reach from 2000km to 35000 km,, our next step is the developing of TIPU which could be our 5000km+ missile.... These are deterrents, Pakistan has a big need to be able to defend itself and deter attack from the likes of India, USA or Nato, (maybe not immediately but eventually)

No one is going to attack Pakistan man...if they do, let us die that way rather than killing ourselves of hunger and illness by making weapons where we should be making food and medicine.

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by switchblade a Huge population of Pakistan also lives in abject poverty.. In China, they hide off all peasants in the countryside and dont let them come to cities and form slums so you see glittering cities.. Their countryside is filled with squalor and much greater resentment against authority than India.

Pakistan is just as wrong as India in this stupidity. I am not singling India out.

LOL...you seem to think the state has SUPER DUPER powers in China. You see your fair share of poverty in Beijing, but not the kind of hopelessness you see in Pak/India/BD.

[Boys_played_well]

Originally Posted by switchblade Well Great Khan... your luv for China will be dead once you realize their true naturel. And however you may deny it, blood is thicker than ideology. Indians and Pakistanis should unite against China, not fight among themselves and give Chinese more scope to dominate and eventually absorb south asia, like it absorbed XinJiang and TIbet.

bro you are missing the point.

At least I, and I am guessing a lot of others here, don't admire China because of Pakistan's relationship with that country. All political friendships are need based or strategy based, and when the situation changes, Pak-China may/may not be as close or may not even be friendly. I agree with you, Pakistan and India are each other's most natural ally, and the sooner we work together the better it will. Despite the tortured history, we are each others unrealized best friends.

That's not the point though - regardless of how your country's relationship with China is, you have to admire their stature in the world now and the direction they are heading in.

[the Great Khan]

Originally Posted by switchblade Well Great Khan... your luv for China will be dead once you realize their true naturel. And however you may deny it, blood is thicker than ideology. Indians and Pakistanis should unite against China, not fight among themselves and give Chinese more scope to dominate and eventually absorb south asia, like it absorbed XinJiang and TIbet.

so lets say hypothetically tommorrow the two powers in the qworld are India and China and I have a gun pointed to my ehad to make a choice between the two? I would never choose India...ever...ive read about the Chinese and their past..and one thing I can say is they are a remarkable people and civilisation...yes they have tehir prejudices but everyone does, yes they want to modernise and are taking great pains to do so, including causing the tibetans problems...but know this, we have never ever had a historical problem with China, actually the Islamic world has generally had a good relationship with the Chinese and long may that tradition continue...ultimatley the Chinese know their limits, and where trade and money can buy them influence they are happy to do so...

personally I like their strategy, and i admire their culture...However dont think I am also viewing their rise with a slight apprehension...but for now they are no threat to us...our threat is the axis of evil US/ISREAL/INDIA!!

you need to give up your Akhand Bharat wet dream...we sperated from you people for a reason..and Islam is thicker than blood...it wil always be!!

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan so lets say hypothetically tommorrow the two powers in the qworld are India and China and I have a gun pointed to my ehad to make a choice between the two? I would never choose India...ever...ive read about the Chinese and their past..and one thing I can say is they are a remarkable people and civilisation...yes they have tehir prejudices but everyone does, yes they want to modernise and are taking great pains to do so, including causing the tibetans problems...but know this, we have never ever had a historical problem with China, actually the Islamic world has generally had a good relationship with the Chinese and long may that tradition continue...ultimatley the Chinese know their limits, and where trade and money can buy them influence they are happy to do so... personally I like their strategy, and i admire their culture...However dont think I am also viewing their rise with a slight apprehension...but for now they are no threat to us...our threat is the axis of evil US/ISREAL/INDIA!! you need to give up your Akhand Bharat wet dream...we sperated from you people for a reason..and Islam is thicker than blood...it wil always be!!

You wont find China as hospitable once you live there and have most of your rights taken away