Quran Humiliation during Army Operation

[Legendary_Sage]

I really got depressed after looking at the picture where people are showing Pieces of Shaheed Quran.
As a muslim army and muslim nation this kind of thing is unacceptable.
I am not saying who is right and who is wrong the point is the sacredness of Quran should be the first priority for us.
Really disgraceful sight.

[fair_dinkum]

i dont understand. is this what the pak army did or NATO/US army?

[Hash]

Perhaps they should have thought of that before keeping the Quran in a militant hideout/base

[Wazeeri]

Missiles are hardly going to know if there is a quran in the building are they?

Pray to Allah that from somewhere we find a charasmatic leader who can bring everyone together. That is the only thing which can save us from a massive clash.

[Legendary_Sage]

Originally Posted by Hash Perhaps they should have thought of that before keeping the Quran in a militant hideout/base

How many times our army or NATO army target the right people.Every time innocent people are the one's who got killed during operation.
With so much hi tech equipment and resources why they are unable to kill militants.
Have you ever thought about it?

[Wazeeri]

Bunty

Are you suggesting that they are killing innocent for the sake of it. Or they targetting Qurans and wasting $100,000 missiles?

The Pakistani Army has lost a lot of men because they have been careful of the coalateral damage.

We have thought about this.
You clearly haven't.

[Legendary_Sage]

As Imran khan suggested that always judge people on the history that they have.
The Britishers tried their best to fight with Tribal people but int the end they have to step back.Tribal people are the one who can not be tied down by shooting missiles.
It will destabilize pakistan.now bomb attacks will become common again as it was before the elections.why we are fighting for Americans.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by buntylover_2000 As Imran khan suggested that always judge people on the history that they have. The Britishers tried their best to fight with Tribal people but int the end they have to step back.Tribal people are the one who can not be tied down by shooting missiles. It will destabilize pakistan.now bomb attacks will become common again as it was before the elections.why we are fighting for Americans.

So you are saying these people should be allowed to just run amok and set up their fascist sub states all over Pakistan? They should be allowed to publically execute people who oppose them? They should be allowed to blow up girls schools? They should be allowed to threaten and kill barbours who shave peoples beards? They should be allowed to kidnap people and impose a fascist ideology on them?

This is not America's war. This is our war. This is the war for Pakistan. Be sensible. And most of the 'tribal people' you talk about are actually supporting the governments latest operation.

[Wazeeri]

We made that choice and now we can't back out of it.
The government is the government, hence they will govern that area.

Some of these guys with guns in FATA are dangerous and they need to stopped before they get too powerful.

There are many ways the Pakistani govt and the Pakistani army have contributed in making this situation as bad as it is but the fact of the matter is that it needs to be sorted out and fighting the militants is the only thing the current leadership is capable off.

[Legendary_Sage]

Hash I am against killing of barbours and burning girls schools.I dont want states to be formed inside pakistan.
But i am also against bloodshed of innocent people on humanity basis.Dialogue process is the only way to the peace.By fighting with them we can't even dream of having peace in pakistan.Pathan people have different mentality then normal people.With due appologies to pathans they will fight for one tree and will kill 100 people for that.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by buntylover_2000 Hash I am against killing of barbours and burning girls schools.I dont want states to be formed inside pakistan. But i am also against bloodshed of innocent people on humanity basis.Dialogue process is the only way to the peace.By fighting with them we can't even dream of having peace in pakistan.Pathan people have different mentality then normal people.With due appologies to pathans they will fight for one tree and will kill 100 people for that.

1. Dialogue will only work if the people who you are talking to are 'reasonable' people who can be 'reasoned' with. The Taliban are not 'reasonable' people. Read the article I posted in the other thread by Pervez Hoodbhoy. It will give you a better understanding of the situation we are in.

2. By negotiating with such people you are a) legitimizing their methods (blowing up girls schools, threatening/killing barbours etc) b) sending a message that you are weak and ripe to be walked over and c) telling people that it is perfectly okay to take arms against the state

You have to take a stand against such people. They are holding our country hostage. Just because they claim to be fighting 'in the name of Islam' it doesn't mean we should leave them untouched and treat them like older brothers. They are enemies of Pakistan. Nothing less than that.

[Garuda]

ok, just curious to know as I never thought its so bad to show pieces quran which was damaged in a war or accident.

What is the right thing to do to an old quran book which is not usable anymore?

is it burried respectfully or anything else?

[Wazeeri]

People normally burn them.

No definite answer as there were no Qurans at the time of the prophet(pbuh). Not in one book anyway.

The sahaba burned their qurans and that is the practice most muslims follow.

As long as you do something with respectful intentions than that is fine.

[Wazeeri]

But i am also against bloodshed of innocent people on humanity basis.Dialogue process is the only way to the peace

Dialogue is going on with non-militants which is the majority. We have a lot of support from them. Not unanimous but enough.

If we don't act now than in the future more people will get killed.

Pathan people have different mentality then normal people.With due appologies to pathans they will fight for one tree and will kill 100 people for that.

I have only killed a few people for a tree.
Never a full 100.

[MIG]

This is a democratic war - waged by a democratic govt - what else do we want ?

Let our lands be cleansed of evil , Ameen

[Wazeeri]

This is a democratic clean up of the mess made by a dictatorship.

[Legendary_Sage]

Every one is entitled to his views.One thing is for sure that war is not a solution to this.
Wazeeri as far as i've knowledge old quran is buried rather then burnt.I may be wrong though but can you provide any refrence to what you have said.

[Wazeeri]

There are no specific rulings from the Prophet(pbuh) as I have said there was no canonised version of the quran but there is a difference in opinion between the ulema as to what to do.

Some scholars say that the names of Allah, the prophet's an the angels should be rubbed out and the rest burned.

Other scholars say that it should be wrapped in a nice cloth and burried.
The latter could possibly cause people to walk upon the place where the quran is burried.

Another way is to tie something heavy to the quran and drop it in flowing water.

Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sha'm and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to Uthman, 'O Chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa, saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent It to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah bin az-Zubair, Sa'id bin al-As, and Abdur-Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of the Quraish as the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.479).

[Legendary_Sage]

Wazeeri thanks for the information.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by buntylover_2000 Every one is entitled to his views.One thing is for sure that war is not a solution to this. Wazeeri as far as i've knowledge old quran is buried rather then burnt.I may be wrong though but can you provide any refrence to what you have said.

War alone is not the solution. It has to be a multifaceted strategy. You can negotiate with (but not appease) those people who are willing to lay down all arms, acknowledge the writ of the Pakistani government and persue peace.

But those who keep their arms, challenge the writ of the state, threaten people, disturb peace, blow up girls schools etc have to be fought tooth and nail until they are abliterated for ever.

At the same time you have to empower the people of the region through economic and social development.

[observer1]

Hash.. are you being satirical or serious? i seriously don't know..

You look at the negatives of the Taliban and make your assumption, but you ignore the act the negatives of the US Army, Nato Army, Pakistani government outweigh the negatives of the Taliban greatly.

Rather than coming to schoolboy conclusions, try looking at the bigger picture.

Dialogue will only work if the people who you are talking to are 'reasonable' people who can be 'reasoned' with

This is why i do not understand you Hash, dont take this offensive bhai, but i seriously think you are to slow to understand things, or just dont want to understand things. Taliban since day 1 have had "Talks" and "Negotiations". so what are you talking about?

The US-Led Coaltion's own generals are saying the government needs to try and talk to the Taleban, since this conflict is not going to be solved with bullets. So what are you talking about Hash?

This is not some Super Hero Comic, where the Taliban are the Evil and do things just to be Evil, and the US are the Heroic and good, and fight to combat evil. Don't be so naive and simple Hash.

I don't see the Taliban locking up Women and Kids Raping them. Abusing and drilling holes into POWS. Forcing "False" confessions out of random men and threatening to torture their mothers if they do not.

Seriously Hash, you're just another Typical Pakistani talking rubbish. You have no idea bro.

[MaVeRiCk]

The pakistan army is corrupt anti islamic and inhumane.. there have been many examples of this

[Wazeeri]

Seriously Hash, you're just another Typical Pakistani talking rubbish. You have no idea bro.

Observer bhai

The compliment could be returned to you as well. The pakistani taliban have come to negitiations but they have a few demands which they are not budging on.

They want all the army out of FATA so they have free access to attack Afghanistan. They want to implement their version of the sharia outside of the laws of Pakistan. This much is an established fact. These demands cannot be met.

We have made a pact with Afghanistan and the allies which we must adhere to as per the principles of islam. We cannot allow people from pakistan to attack Afghanistan.

The negotiations with some militants have broken because they want to rule a part of Pakistan. They want no Pakistani interference. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

The best way would be if we had someone who could convince them but we don't so fighting some militants is the only way.

YES the Pak army and past pak govts are to blame for this mess.
But we are in this mess, What is the solution?

Do we accept their demands?

[Legendary_Sage]

What about the Jamia Hafsa and Lal Mosque children.I myself heard Ghazi rasheed on GEO he was saying that they will surrender infront of media and Ullema.then why all of sudden the government went for operation.Why they killed innocent children inside the mosque.

[Legendary_Sage]

Just read this article and i hope it will help you understand the situation.

[fair_dinkum]

hey bunty lover, can you post your images smaller or through image shack. they are very big!

[Wazeeri]

What about the Jamia Hafsa and Lal Mosque children.I myself heard Ghazi rasheed on GEO he was saying that they will surrender infront of media and Ullema.then why all of sudden the government went for operation.Why they killed innocent children inside the mosque.

Different govt different approach

[Legendary_Sage]

Originally Posted by fair_dinkum hey bunty lover, can you post your images smaller or through image shack. they are very big!

sorry bro.i dont know how to compress the image.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by observer1 Hash.. are you being satirical or serious? i seriously don't know..

I am being dead serious.

Originally Posted by observer1 You look at the negatives of the Taliban and make your assumption, but you ignore the act the negatives of the US Army, Nato Army, Pakistani government outweigh the negatives of the Taliban greatly.

How so? I have condemned the actions of the US Army and NATO several times. But I'd love to know how the negatives of the US Army, NATO and the Pakistan government outweigh the negatives of the Taliban. Please explain. You are basically saying you would rather live under a Taliban Pakistan than a Pakistan as things currently stand. So please tell me what would be so great about a Taliban Pakistan (since you think they are such reasonable people) that it would be better than things as they are at the moment.

Originally Posted by observer1 Rather than coming to schoolboy conclusions, try looking at the bigger picture.

Well please explain to me the bigger picture.

Originally Posted by observer1 This is why i do not understand you Hash, dont take this offensive bhai, but i seriously think you are to slow to understand things, or just dont want to understand things. Taliban since day 1 have had "Talks" and "Negotiations". so what are you talking about?

And each time anyone has tried to talk with them they have gone back on their word. The last time back in 2006 I think it was...everything was going smoothly until Baitullah's men captured a batallion of the Frontier Corps and slit their throats. Things were going smoothly this time too until it turned out these so called holy warriors had started moving into the towns surrounding Peshawar, continued to blow up girls schools (practically every day there is a story in the newspapers here), killing people who cut beards etc. How can a country run like this? You just give this people a free run? How do you propose to stop them? Just give them what they want?

Oh and I'm not offended.

Originally Posted by observer1 The US-Led Coaltion's own generals are saying the government needs to try and talk to the Taleban, since this conflict is not going to be solved with bullets. So what are you talking about Hash?

I have already said that those who are willing to lay down their arms, ackowledge the writ of the Pakistani state and stop moving into towns and villages and attempting to put their own sub states in place can be negotiated with. So to be honest, I should be asking you....'what are you talking about observer1?'

Originally Posted by observer1 This is not some Super Hero Comic, where the Taliban are the Evil and do things just to be Evil, and the US are the Heroic and good, and fight to combat evil. Don't be so naive and simple Hash.

I have barely mentioned the Americans in this thread and that was only to say that this is our war, not Americas. So i don't know where you got this 'US are heroic and good' idea from. Certainly not from me. I think the problem is that you are being naive and simple. You are so anti America that anyone else who is 'anti America' is automatically good (ie, The Taliban, in this case)

Originally Posted by observer1 I don't see the Taliban locking up Women and Kids Raping them. Abusing and drilling holes into POWS. Forcing "False" confessions out of random men and threatening to torture their mothers if they do not.

Oh really? We only see them blowing up girls schools, blowing up shops (and peoples livelihoods) because they sell music CDs, threatening women who don't cover their heads, threatening and killing barbours who cut/shave/trim peoples beards, publicly executing people who oppose them (in front of baying mobs), keeping private torture cells in houses. Oh yeah, these are perfectly reasonable people.

Originally Posted by observer1 Seriously Hash, you're just another Typical Pakistani talking rubbish. You have no idea bro.

You don't have to keep calling me 'bro'. And quite clearly I have a far better idea of things than you.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by buntylover_2000 What about the Jamia Hafsa and Lal Mosque children.I myself heard Ghazi rasheed on GEO he was saying that they will surrender infront of media and Ullema.then why all of sudden the government went for operation.Why they killed innocent children inside the mosque.

Oh come on don't be so naive. He had plenty of time to surrender. He had no intention of doing so. And those children had plenty of time to leave the premisis too unless you are saying your hero Ghazi Rasheed was keeping them in there by force?

[Wazeeri]

Oh come on don't be so naive. He had plenty of time to surrender. He had no intention of doing so. And those children had plenty of time to leave the premisis too unless you are saying your hero Ghazi Rasheed was keeping them in there by force?

No they didn't Hash,

Are you going to take the word of Mush who has walked hand in hand with the corrupt and came up with NRO against the word of Maulana Edhi?

The negotiations were done but it was Musharraf who changed his mind right at the last minute. Read the accounts of all ulema who were involved in the negotiations.

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri No they didn't Hash, Are you going to take the word of Mush who has walked hand in hand with the corrupt and came up with NRO against the word of Maulana Edhi? The negotiations were done but it was Musharraf who changed his mind right at the last minute. Read the accounts of all ulema who were involved in the negotiations.

They had plenty of time. There were several weeks after the seige began before the army actually moved into the premisis. If Ghazi cared so much for these imaginary children then he would have at least sent them out.

[Legendary_Sage]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri No they didn't Hash, Are you going to take the word of Mush who has walked hand in hand with the corrupt and came up with NRO against the word of Maulana Edhi? The negotiations were done but it was Musharraf who changed his mind right at the last minute. Read the accounts of all ulema who were involved in the negotiations.

Hash, Wazeeri is right.It was musharaf who backed away and started the operation.I followed the Jamia hafsa incident very keenly and at midnight the government team consists of Mushahid Hussain,Shujaat hussain along with Ullema said that the negotiations are successful and the draft will be sent to Mush for approval.But all of sudden in the morning the Army started the final assault.

[Wazeeri]

They had plenty of time. There were several weeks after the seige began before the army actually moved into the premisis. If Ghazi cared so much for these imaginary children then he would have at least sent them out.

Several weeks? 8 days if you include the tear gas incident on July 11th.

No one is calling Ghazi a hero but all ulema involved left satisfied that the negotiations were successful. It was Musharraf who made the move and attacked.

[Zeenix]

Between just a question.. Which Talibaan are you talking about..

[161]

Originally Posted by observer1 Hash.. are you being satirical or serious? i seriously don't know.. You look at the negatives of the Taliban and make your assumption, but you ignore the act the negatives of the US Army, Nato Army, Pakistani government outweigh the negatives of the Taliban greatly. Rather than coming to schoolboy conclusions, try looking at the bigger picture. This is why i do not understand you Hash, dont take this offensive bhai, but i seriously think you are to slow to understand things, or just dont want to understand things. Taliban since day 1 have had "Talks" and "Negotiations". so what are you talking about? The US-Led Coaltion's own generals are saying the government needs to try and talk to the Taleban, since this conflict is not going to be solved with bullets. So what are you talking about Hash? This is not some Super Hero Comic, where the Taliban are the Evil and do things just to be Evil, and the US are the Heroic and good, and fight to combat evil. Don't be so naive and simple Hash. I don't see the Taliban locking up Women and Kids Raping them. Abusing and drilling holes into POWS. Forcing "False" confessions out of random men and threatening to torture their mothers if they do not. Seriously Hash, you're just another Typical Pakistani talking rubbish. You have no idea bro.

Observer - I don't know how old you are and I don't know whether you form your views personally or you've been indoctrinated by the society you live in ... but I can tell you that you have a seriously distorted view of things.


Negotiations have been tried with the Taliban several times.

Most recently the new government and the Taliban agreed that if the latter would give up their militancy the Pak army would leave the Tribal areas.

But what happened as soon as the army left ?

The Taliban went on a free for all ... burning down schools .. public executions .. murdering of opposition leaders .. and most importantly crossing the border and bringing their Jihad to Afghanistan.

Do understand that the Pak government absolutely cannot allow that last transgression. They have no choice but to engage the Taliban militarily or else NATO in all likelihood will.

The government tried their best, but you cant negotiate with people who willing do die before changing their ways !

[Wazeeri]

Zee

Can you shed some light on this.

Are the people of NWFP supporting the government or do they sympathise with the Pakistani Taliban /militants?

I have a few Swatis friends who aren't too fond of the militants.

[Xshazero]

We have to finish these so called Talibans and Millitants...... This is enough now... we cant take it anymore...... such ret*rted people should not be in this world..... killing innocent people, blowing themselves up, killing innocent childrens, girls..... Its time to finish them off......

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Zee Can you shed some light on this. Are the people of NWFP supporting the government or do they sympathise with the Pakistani Taliban /militants? I have a few Swatis friends who aren't too fond of the militants.

My immediate supervisor at work is from Kohat and, let's just say, he HATES the militants. I have to hear him cursing them every day when he reads the newspaper.

RE: the Lal Masjid issue. It was discussed endlessly and we all gave our opinions on it. I supported the government action and still do. I believe they were given plenty of opportunity to surrender, plenty of deadlines were extended. From what I remember Ghazi was demanding safe passage as a condition for his surrender but the government wanted (and rightfully so) an unconditional surrender.

[Zeenix]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Zee Can you shed some light on this. Are the people of NWFP supporting the government or do they sympathise with the Pakistani Taliban /militants? I have a few Swatis friends who aren't too fond of the militants.

Regarding support, No questions about it. Offcourse they support the govt.. Its another question that the govt doesn't support the people there. Who would want their throats slit..

Where have the billions gone that were given by the US for the sole purpose of fighting terror. Had a fraction of that been used to upgrade our law enforcement agencies, the conditions would have been different. All that money went where????

Fact is our police doesn't have the capacity/capability to stop them.

Two weeks back i planned to visit Hangu District Health offices...

Contacted the district office to ensure security.. They inturn contacted the police. The DSP of the area personally rang, and pleaded that i don't visit.. Told me that his men saw a group of people fixing explosives, but they did nothing to stop them... Fair enough.. You can't expect them to fight an impossible battle.. Not with Five guns and a hundred rounds anyways..

Regarding Talibaan, i specifically asked the question which Talibaan.. People are quick to generalize the Talibaan.. branding them under a single label. There are Indian Talibaan, Irani Talibaan, Talibaan supported and funded by the US.

Maulana Fazllulah is supported and funded by India.. Many members of his outfit belongs to the Sikkim Province..

Mangal Bagh is pakistani talibaan installed for the purpose of stopping the advance of other talibaan groups..

Maluvi Umar group of TTP is supported by the US.

Masood is being supported by Iran..

The people are scared. Who would want to mess with them..

On top of it, the govt does nothing for those who support it.. Refer to what happened in Damadola.. The Govt reached Damadola after Masud men had abducted and slaughtered 28 prominent pro govt supporters.. Who would want to support the Govt then...

[Zeenix]

Originally Posted by Hash My immediate supervisor at work is from Kohat and, let's just say, he HATES the militants. I have to hear him cursing them every day when he reads the newspaper. RE: the Lal Masjid issue. It was discussed endlessly and we all gave our opinions on it. I supported the government action and still do. I believe they were given plenty of opportunity to surrender, plenty of deadlines were extended. From what I remember Ghazi was demanding safe passage as a condition for his surrender but the government wanted (and rightfully so) an unconditional surrender.

Hash, what about the decomposing of the bodies in Acid.. The attrocities committed there put East Pakistan atrocities to shame. Operation or No operation, this is unacceptable. Ever thought what went through those innocent small children girls and boys alike (most of whom were orphans) as they sat without water, electricity, food and inhaled all that nerve gas dreading what's next in store..

What about the dumping of body parts in graves dug out.

No Hash.. i heard those hair raising stories myself from the people involved. Do you know how many people resigned after that... A director of an agency started crying while recalling those events.

The premise of the operation are debatable, but even if we were to keep that aside, the barbarism at display was unacceptable

[WasimG]

Its a book.

I dont know why the picture is showing a funeral and a damaged copy of Quran together as if a book holds equal value to that of a life, let alone several human lives.

I'm not picking on anyone's belief. You have every right to hold it sacred and believe its the word of God, but a torn physical copy doesn't mean your belief or its credibility is torn.

Animals are tortured and their lives are taken for fun in our country but a damaged book makes headlines.

[Wazeeri]

You do understand the reason, you just want a moan hence ignored.

[Wazeeri]

RE: the Lal Masjid issue. It was discussed endlessly and we all gave our opinions on it. I supported the government action and still do. I believe they were given plenty of opportunity to surrender, plenty of deadlines were extended. From what I remember Ghazi was demanding safe passage as a condition for his surrender but the government wanted (and rightfully so) an unconditional surrender.

Don't just try to remember, go watch the programmes on it, read the interviews of the ulema who were trying to broker peace.

Both parties had reached an agreement. The final assault was totally unwarranted.

They waited for "weeks" for peace?
Why throw it away when they got peace?

[DM]

Hussain_0216

[lakha84]

Originally Posted by MIG This is a democratic war - waged by a democratic govt - what else do we want ? Let our lands be cleansed of evil , Ameen

no its dictator ship in the name of democracy

[lakha84]

Originally Posted by WasimG Its a book. I dont know why the picture is showing a funeral and a damaged copy of Quran together as if a book holds equal value to that of a life, let alone several human lives. I'm not picking on anyone's belief. You have every right to hold it sacred and believe its the word of God, but a torn physical copy doesn't mean your belief or its credibility is torn. Animals are tortured and their lives are taken for fun in our country but a damaged book makes headlines.

its worth more than my life

well u will find out soon enough

[WasimG]

Originally Posted by lakha84 its worth more than my life well u will find out soon enough

Which is exactly why the death of a Pakistani is not even news and the world keeps walking over you like a doormat.

[pakistani_banda]

Originally Posted by WasimG Its a book. I dont know why the picture is showing a funeral and a damaged copy of Quran together as if a book holds equal value to that of a life, let alone several human lives. I'm not picking on anyone's belief. You have every right to hold it sacred and believe its the word of God, but a torn physical copy doesn't mean your belief or its credibility is torn. Animals are tortured and their lives are taken for fun in our country but a damaged book makes headlines.

if a muslim disrespects The Holy Quran he instantly commits a sin and is not a muslim any more. he has to repent and has to recite the kalam again.

and if ur married then u have to get the nikah done again.

[observer1]

OK let me explain where i 'm at with the "Taliban"....

I am not a Fan of Taliban. Whether their Islamic resistance, normal resistance, local people etc. it's hard to tell but defining the "Taliban" is no easy task. As far as i know there are several branches in Afghanistan (even in Pakistan) that are labeled "Taliban". It's almost as if the Taliban has become a by-Word for the resistance/insurgency in Afghanistan.

As for what they do wrong, compared with what the "Liberation" forces do wrong. IMO, the "Liberation" forces have done a lot more wrong. i will explain why:

Remember, Taleban were founded in 96 and had to make do with no outside support. I still remember before the run-up to the war, there was countless propaganda footage of how "Evil" and "Bad" the Taliban were, (of course before nobody cared before anyway, hence the sanctions).
The first "TALKS" were to hand over Osama Bin Laden after 9/11. Something the Taliban said they would comply with, ONLY IF there was proof. At that moment in time, it was just OBL's word against Bush's.

Then the US Did something far worse than attacking schools and barbours, it invaded a country. There is evidence of countless intentional massacres of POWS and Civilians. Illegal Killings, illegal kidnappings, illegal interrogating methods (i.e. Torture). All this resulted in one thing. Anger from Local Muslims, and support for the Taliban from a lot of Afghans.

I am pretty sure the US would look for NO TALKS AT ALL if the Taliban invaded and destroyed the US and did what the US did to the Afghan people. Still yet, the Taliban has offered it's fair share of negotiations.

Yet you call it "appeasement" if the US give in to the "Taliban" Demands ?

Face it, the US has committed enough war crimes latley to proved the Taliban/other resistance groups with recruiting help for possibly the next 20+ years.

But like i said earlier, the Taliban is no formal army. Any Tom, Dick or Harry willing to pick up a gun and fight against the US Occupation can do so, he can also call himself what he wishes. Be it a Talib, a Freedom Fighter, a terrorist etc.

To say their all bad is just dumb, since im pretty sure some guy in Afghanistan fighting because he lost all he had by some "Accidental bombing" will want nothing to do with what is going on in the Swath province.

Just like Zeenix said, their "Funded" and "Supported" by different people and have different stories.

IMO all this Chaos is all brought up by an aggressive US Government, a corrupt Pak government, a Puppet Afghan government which has spiraled any resistance in Afghanistan/Pakistan out of control.

[pakistani_banda]

Originally Posted by observer1 OK let me explain where i 'm at with the "Taliban".... I am not a Fan of Taliban. Whether their Islamic resistance, normal resistance, local people etc. it's hard to tell but defining the "Taliban" is no easy task. As far as i know there are several branches in Afghanistan (even in Pakistan) that are labeled "Taliban". It's almost as if the Taliban has become a by-Word for the resistance/insurgency in Afghanistan. As for what they do wrong, compared with what the "Liberation" forces do wrong. IMO, the "Liberation" forces have done a lot more wrong. i will explain why: Remember, Taleban were founded in 96 and had to make do with no outside support. I still remember before the run-up to the war, there was countless propaganda footage of how "Evil" and "Bad" the Taliban were, (of course before nobody cared before anyway, hence the sanctions). The first "TALKS" were to hand over Osama Bin Laden after 9/11. Something the Taliban said they would comply with, ONLY IF there was proof. At that moment in time, it was just OBL's word against Bush's. Then the US Did something far worse than attacking schools and barbours, it invaded a country. There is evidence of countless intentional massacres of POWS and Civilians. Illegal Killings, illegal kidnappings, illegal interrogating methods (i.e. Torture). All this resulted in one thing. Anger from Local Muslims, and support for the Taliban from a lot of Afghans. I am pretty sure the US would look for NO TALKS AT ALL if the Taliban invaded and destroyed the US and did what the US did to the Afghan people. Still yet, the Taliban has offered it's fair share of negotiations. Yet you call it "appeasement" if the US give in to the "Taliban" Demands ? Face it, the US has committed enough war crimes latley to proved the Taliban/other resistance groups with recruiting help for possibly the next 20+ years. But like i said earlier, the Taliban is no formal army. Any Tom, Dick or Harry willing to pick up a gun and fight against the US Occupation can do so, he can also call himself what he wishes. Be it a Talib, a Freedom Fighter, a terrorist etc. To say their all bad is just dumb, since im pretty sure some guy in Afghanistan fighting because he lost all he had by some "Accidental bombing" will want nothing to do with what is going on in the Swath province. Just like Zeenix said, their "Funded" and "Supported" by different people and have different stories. IMO all this Chaos is all brought up by an aggressive US Government, a corrupt Pak government, a Puppet Afghan government which has spiraled any resistance in Afghanistan/Pakistan out of control.

dont think we are with the americans. the americans will have to over the dead bodies or all the pakistanis if they want to invade pakistan.

the reason y we r against the taliban is that they have themselves become like americans, maybe even worse. they want to control others that wat they want to do and we are against that as we are not them and they r not us.

the taliban also kill innocent people. i heard that the taliban killed two men on the basis that they were not good muslims. wat right does the taliban have to judge who is a good muslim and whos not. when the war started we were all with the taliban, as they were the wronged, but not instead of improving themselves they want to invade pakistan just because they cant kick out the americans. they also dont realise in wat situation pakistan was in 2001. they dont ealise because they dont have the ability to reason and rationalise and to see the wider picture. all they know is wat they have been taught.

also rationalisation and reason comes from age and also knowledge/ eductaion, but since most of teh taliban are uneducated they dont have the ability to rationalise. they just want to live in the stone age and make others live in the stone age as well.

[observer1]

Yeah bro i know where you are coming from, you made some good points. But what i am trying to say is that the Taliban is not some single bodied organization. There are hardcore militants in Pakistan and Afghanistan would probably target the Taliban themselves.

What i am saying is Militant activity is being branded as the "Taliban" even though what is happening in Pakistan and some places in Afghanistan has nothing to do with what so ever with the Taliban.

i mean calling the Taliban "uneducated" is a big generalization itself. I mean if they managed to run a country with NO Outside support, they must have some form of intelligence.

[Wazeeri]

Observer Bhai

I don't get what your point is, has anyone said that the USA is not worst than the Taliban? We all agree that all of these sides are bad but why are you arguing that we shouldn't stop them?

[Zechariah]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri No definite answer as there were no Qurans at the time of the prophet(pbuh). Not in one book anyway.

Prophet (PBUH) left a complete book before he left.

[Wazeeri]

Prophet (PBUH) left a complete book before he left.

He left a complete Quran not a complete book.