Should Musharaf be tried for High Treason

[Zeenix]

Musharaf, undoubtedly the most ruthless, tyrannical and cruel ruler ever in the History of Pakistan. Thousands of innocent Pakistanis handed over to the US, raping and persecution of Pakistanis, playing havoc with Pakistan's economy, Making UTurns on all Issues, Abrogation of the constitution, dismantling the very fabric of Pakistan, becoming a security risk, Merciless killings of innocent children in Lal Masjid. Record writing of loans etc

So, what do you think should be the end of Musharaf

[Zeenix]

Some points to ponder :

With the coalition preparing its strategy for his impeachment, what options an increasingly isolated Musharraf is left with to counter the political leadership's challenge to his suffocating hold on the presidency need to be assessed.

Basically, there are only two options: one, he employs his usual destructive tactics to fight his way out of his predicament; second, he calls it quits after addressing the nation to tell it about the 'great service' he has rendered in his role as a self-proclaimed saviour of Pakistan.

Of these two, the first one is compatible with his jingoistic mindset. So, desperate as he is, he may start trampling everything like the proverbial bull in a china shop.

If the president does that and there are reasons to believe he could take this destructive path, then it would mean he is so much consumed by the desire to hold on to power that he cares not a jot for 'national interest' he is so fond of bandying about. In the name of this 'national interest', he has already made a mockery of every institution - including the judiciary, the media and the army, which is bearing the burden of his sins of omission and commission.

We have been told time and again by Musharraf that he is a fighter who has not learnt to surrender. He told us that from his very childhood he has adopted a habit of not bowing to pressure and that he likes to stick to his point.

He has proved that, no matter how invalid it might be. All this points to a person who is stubborn and who does not have even minimum decency to accept his mistakes. But then accepting mistakes requires big heart and moral principles.

As for his fighting capabilities, let it be said the Pakistani nation should have been the last punching bag to suffer his punches. Musharraf is the architect of the Kargil fiasco and it seems this guilt governs his psyche. One does not really know how valiantly he was able to rout the enemy but what one for sure knows is that he has brutally tormented his own people. The post-November 3 crackdown on civil society, including the media, can vouchsafe for this grim fact. His whole effort in the name of 'national interest' has revolved round the single objective of preserving his power, regardless of the repercussions it carried for this blighted nation. When Musharraf assumed power after toppling an elected government on October 12, 1999, he unfolded a seven-point agenda that he emblazoned as his manifesto.

The so-called Musharrafian manifesto included such high goals as provincial harmony, economic turnaround, accountability, institutional respect and good governance.

Read them one and by one and try to find what he has done to these high goals.

Despite enjoying unfettered power, abetted by the US dole-outs in lieu of his blind services as an American stooge, including the humiliation of selling his own people for a few dollars, Musharraf has given Pakistan: one, a burning Balochistan, where anti-centre feeling is high - not for nothing because he eliminated Akbar Bugti without any compunction despite his being a leader who had chosen to work within the federation; two, a shattered economy, despite the fact that after 9/11 remittances flowed into Pakistan and the world community rescheduled loans and gave grants; three, a mockery of accountability, as bank loans were waived and the masterminds of the steel mills fraud, stock market scam and sugar and wheat shortage allowed to go scot-free. Lest one forget, some famous corrupt are sitting with him, turning the National Accountability Bureau into a farce; four, battered and trounced institutions - including the judiciary -60 judges of which who tried to thwart his unabashed skulduggery of getting himself re-elected in uniform with the gun on the temples of parliamentarians are seeking justice; five, a mutilated system of governance, with the much-trumpeted power devolution, which spawned a system of local governments to serve as Musharraf's adjunct, rendering governance dysfunctional, and six; a turbulent tribal territory facing blatant foreign incursions, and so. There is trouble on every border. Only he could have done that.

There is a long charge sheet that the coalition has prepared to arraign him in the court of people--read parliament, which he will have to defend. This charge sheet includes many acts that would have put to shame anyone with a modicum of conscience like the killing of students in Lal Majid under full media glare, murder of Akbar Bugti, murder of Benazir Bhutto whose survival he had linked with her support to him, according to 'Way of the World', authored by American journalist Ron Suskind, and macabre killings in Karachi on May 12.

However, it is unlikely that he will defend himself given his reluctance to face the representatives of people. Musharraf should have called it a day when the Supreme Court restored Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. He should have done so when various surveys showed that he was the most unpopular person in Pakistan. He should have done so when the people of Pakistan rejected with contempt his supporters and voted out of power the king's party- a motley crowd of political opportunists.

Musharraf had declared time and again that he would not allow Pakistan's two most popular leaders to return home. But not only did they return but their parties also won the elections. In the case of Benazir Bhutto, he cleared her of all charges, thereby proving that all cases were fictitious and aimed at keeping her and her husband out of Pakistan.

Musharraf is amazing. He is champion of U-turns. His tenure is full of somersaults. An international survey placed him on top of the list of people who do not command people's faith worldwide in the company of his buddy George Bush.

From Kargil to turning Pakistan into a state teetering on the edge of failure, Musharraf will require exceptional guts, nay audacity, to dismiss the charges against him. Knowing him, he can do that, compounding Pakistan's misery in its wake. The only option for him is to quit.

Enough, he must go. By Allah's grace, Pakistan can live without him.

[mumtaz]

Originally Posted by Zeenix Musharaf, undoubtedly the most ruthless, tyrannical and cruel ruler ever in the History of Pakistan. Thousands of innocent Pakistanis handed over to the US, raping and persecution of Pakistanis, playing havoc with Pakistan's economy, Making UTurns on all Issues, Abrogation of the constitution, dismantling the very fabric of Pakistan, becoming a security risk, Merciless killings of innocent children in Lal Masjid. Record writing of loans etc So, what do you think should be the end of Musharaf

Well from what I have read and heard, Zia definitely edges Musharraf in all these categories.

Regardless, he needs to be not only tried for all the crimes he committed but also also made such an example such that no army general can ever dare to repeat what he did.

[Wazeeri]

Agree with Mumtaz Zia was a lot more powerful and ruthless but Musharraf is a lot more incompetent and deluded. Both these guys needed to be executed,

Hopefully it will be the pakistani judiciary which gets rid of this dictator rather than some exploding fruits.

[DHONI183]

I just would like to say that no matter what Musharaf did Zia remains the 'most cruel, tyrannical and ruthless' dictator in history of Pakistan.

[Saj]

I'm no Pakistani political expert, but post 1 could be written on the CV of a number of Pakistani leaders, including some who have wormed their way back into power these days.

[Islamabadi]

No, he should be given a safe passage, we don't have to kill all of our leaders...

[Wazeeri]

No, he should be given a safe passage, we don't have to kill all of our leaders...

But we should execute a few of them.

[Islamabadi]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri But we should execute a few of them.

Yeh maybe we should start with zardari and Nawaz sharif

[Wazeeri]

No we need to start with the bird in hand rather than the two in the bushes.

[161]

Mushy is no longer a factor and it's sad that Ganga and Mr. 10% are bickering over him instead of focusing on our real current problems of out of control inflation and out of control fundoos.

[Islamabadi]

Originally Posted by kashif77 Mushy is no longer a factor and it's sad that Ganga and Mr. 10% are bickering over him instead of focusing on our real current problems of out of control inflation and out of control fundoos.

and out of control balouchi separatists

[Khabri420]

start with two in the bushes in this case, because the bird in hand is not running away without a fight. If he wanted to escape, he would have done it earlier....

Originally Posted by Wazeeri No we need to start with the bird in hand rather than the two in the bushes.

[161]

Originally Posted by Islamabadi and out of control balouchi separatists

Actually they are in control (that is in India and Afghanistan's control).

[kingusama92]

Musharraf is much better then Sharif and Nawaz... so i want him to stay unless we have a new person to replace him...

[Khabri420]

true...unfortunately we have people like zardari who are dreaming to be president. Heck, I think even ex-CJP chaudhry has his eyes on that position!

Originally Posted by kingusama92 Musharraf is much better then Sharif and Nawaz... so i want him to stay unless we have a new person to replace him...

[Wazeeri]

Mushy is no longer a factor and it's sad that Ganga and Mr. 10% are bickering over him instead of focusing on our real current problems of out of control inflation and out of control fundoos.

He is very much a factor. The man is controlling the 58(2b) and he has already shown that he has no sensitivities towards the consequences of his decissions especially when it comes to misusing or abusing the constitution.

[Wazeeri]

start with two in the bushes in this case, because the bird in hand is not running away without a fight. If he wanted to escape, he would have done it earlier....

Is that why he has an apartment in the USA?

[Khabri420]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Is that why he has an apartment in the USA?

umm ok....spot on. He's definitely running away now!

[Khabri420]

its about time he uses it... :mush

Originally Posted by Wazeeri He is very much a factor. The man is controlling the 58(2b) and he has already shown that he has no sensitivities towards the consequences of his decissions especially when it comes to misusing or abusing the constitution.

[Faisalabad]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Is that why he has an apartment in the USA?

Well thats nothing in comparison to other 2 birds in bushes then is it? He has family living is US..Im sure he has way less than the other2..

[Wazeeri]

Originally Posted by Faislabad Well thats nothing in comparison to other 2 birds in bushes then is it? He has family living is US..Im sure he has way less than the other2..

Weren't you supposed to be compiling a list on the other thread?

[Wazeeri]

Originally Posted by Khabri420 umm ok....spot on. He's definitely running away now!

The laughing emoticons make your post so much easier to understand.


Can't think of anything to say, just post a laughing smiley.

[Khabri420]

yeah i am trying to get as many posts in possible whenever I can....or may be it's just you ...jk

[161]

Originally Posted by kingusama92 Musharraf is much better then Sharif and Nawaz... so i want him to stay unless we have a new person to replace him...

mushy may or may not be better than them ...

but a working democracy is clearly better than military rule.

i just wish some how that a cruise missile or a suicide bomber could take out ganga and mr. 10% and we can then start with a fresh democracy.

[kingusama92]

I agree that we need to start all over again.... but out of these three i would take Musharraf for now... he isn`t in the military anymore so that part of his reign is over... now he`s just a normal citizen... I think we have to let him stay and see how things pan out because if someone new comes in they may let in to the continous pressure the US is putting on Pakistan to let them attack that mountain regions bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan...

[saadibaba]

Originally Posted by Zeenix Some points to ponder : With the coalition preparing its strategy for his impeachment, what options an increasingly isolated Musharraf is left with to counter the political leadership's challenge to his suffocating hold on the presidency need to be assessed. Basically, there are only two options: one, he employs his usual destructive tactics to fight his way out of his predicament; second, he calls it quits after addressing the nation to tell it about the 'great service' he has rendered in his role as a self-proclaimed saviour of Pakistan. Of these two, the first one is compatible with his jingoistic mindset. So, desperate as he is, he may start trampling everything like the proverbial bull in a china shop. If the president does that and there are reasons to believe he could take this destructive path, then it would mean he is so much consumed by the desire to hold on to power that he cares not a jot for 'national interest' he is so fond of bandying about. In the name of this 'national interest', he has already made a mockery of every institution - including the judiciary, the media and the army, which is bearing the burden of his sins of omission and commission. We have been told time and again by Musharraf that he is a fighter who has not learnt to surrender. He told us that from his very childhood he has adopted a habit of not bowing to pressure and that he likes to stick to his point. He has proved that, no matter how invalid it might be. All this points to a person who is stubborn and who does not have even minimum decency to accept his mistakes. But then accepting mistakes requires big heart and moral principles. As for his fighting capabilities, let it be said the Pakistani nation should have been the last punching bag to suffer his punches. Musharraf is the architect of the Kargil fiasco and it seems this guilt governs his psyche. One does not really know how valiantly he was able to rout the enemy but what one for sure knows is that he has brutally tormented his own people. The post-November 3 crackdown on civil society, including the media, can vouchsafe for this grim fact. His whole effort in the name of 'national interest' has revolved round the single objective of preserving his power, regardless of the repercussions it carried for this blighted nation. When Musharraf assumed power after toppling an elected government on October 12, 1999, he unfolded a seven-point agenda that he emblazoned as his manifesto. The so-called Musharrafian manifesto included such high goals as provincial harmony, economic turnaround, accountability, institutional respect and good governance. Read them one and by one and try to find what he has done to these high goals. Despite enjoying unfettered power, abetted by the US dole-outs in lieu of his blind services as an American stooge, including the humiliation of selling his own people for a few dollars, Musharraf has given Pakistan: one, a burning Balochistan, where anti-centre feeling is high - not for nothing because he eliminated Akbar Bugti without any compunction despite his being a leader who had chosen to work within the federation; two, a shattered economy, despite the fact that after 9/11 remittances flowed into Pakistan and the world community rescheduled loans and gave grants; three, a mockery of accountability, as bank loans were waived and the masterminds of the steel mills fraud, stock market scam and sugar and wheat shortage allowed to go scot-free. Lest one forget, some famous corrupt are sitting with him, turning the National Accountability Bureau into a farce; four, battered and trounced institutions - including the judiciary -60 judges of which who tried to thwart his unabashed skulduggery of getting himself re-elected in uniform with the gun on the temples of parliamentarians are seeking justice; five, a mutilated system of governance, with the much-trumpeted power devolution, which spawned a system of local governments to serve as Musharraf's adjunct, rendering governance dysfunctional, and six; a turbulent tribal territory facing blatant foreign incursions, and so. There is trouble on every border. Only he could have done that. There is a long charge sheet that the coalition has prepared to arraign him in the court of people--read parliament, which he will have to defend. This charge sheet includes many acts that would have put to shame anyone with a modicum of conscience like the killing of students in Lal Majid under full media glare, murder of Akbar Bugti, murder of Benazir Bhutto whose survival he had linked with her support to him, according to 'Way of the World', authored by American journalist Ron Suskind, and macabre killings in Karachi on May 12. However, it is unlikely that he will defend himself given his reluctance to face the representatives of people. Musharraf should have called it a day when the Supreme Court restored Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. He should have done so when various surveys showed that he was the most unpopular person in Pakistan. He should have done so when the people of Pakistan rejected with contempt his supporters and voted out of power the king's party- a motley crowd of political opportunists. Musharraf had declared time and again that he would not allow Pakistan's two most popular leaders to return home. But not only did they return but their parties also won the elections. In the case of Benazir Bhutto, he cleared her of all charges, thereby proving that all cases were fictitious and aimed at keeping her and her husband out of Pakistan. Musharraf is amazing. He is champion of U-turns. His tenure is full of somersaults. An international survey placed him on top of the list of people who do not command people's faith worldwide in the company of his buddy George Bush. From Kargil to turning Pakistan into a state teetering on the edge of failure, Musharraf will require exceptional guts, nay audacity, to dismiss the charges against him. Knowing him, he can do that, compounding Pakistan's misery in its wake. The only option for him is to quit. Enough, he must go. By Allah's grace, Pakistan can live without him.

Well written. You must be comended for making the case that everything and anything that is wrong with the country right now is because of Musharraf. I have no problems with anyone's point of views, this kind of rhetoric is nothing new. Its the same twisted and nonsensical rhetoric used by Zardari, Nawaz, Imran and the radical elements of Pakistan and their media buddies against Musharraf. Lets ask first from people who are making these claims against Musharraf of what they have actually done for the country. Lets take them one by one.

Mr.10% is likely to go down in history as being the most corrupt person ever in Pakistan. Before the unfortunate death of BB, this joker was kept in covers on account for his "health" and was not even allowed to talk to the media. BB knew more than anyone what a piece of work this guy is and how destructive he has been to her own image, PPP and the country.

Shair e Punjab, Mr. Ameer Ul Momineen who have descended from the heavens to save the country from the evil dictator is well known for being Zia's favorite politician. He attacked the judiciary, punished the press (specifically the Jang group by stoping their shipmet of paper), looted the country with both hands and then fled the country sheepishly signing a deal with the help of the Saudi's. Not to mention a new hairdo that he and his brother are sporting as if noone ever remembered them to be bald.

Lets talk about the radical movement now, people like Imran Khan. Someone who conducts his politics through talk shows and has yet to make his party into anthing but a laughing stock has got some nerves talking on the behalf of Pakistani people. I respect his contributions as a cricketer and for giving us a cancer hospital but someone who changes color faster than a chameleon is not even worth wasting my time over.

Lets get back to Musharraf now. He is not perfect from anywhere and noone likes to have an army general ruling our country but when you have a broken political system that only seem to bring the same old black faces back to power, when you have the worst security situation that Pakistan has ever faced with war going on in different parts of the country and when our economic situation seems to be nearing disaster, the pragmatic person inside me still trusts Musharraf over our politicians. I won't go into detail over his contributions to our country but only that we had the highest GDP growth ever in our history during his tenure.

One has to be practical and a bit more sophisticated in his/her thinking before believing all this junk being spewed about him by the anchors of popular talk shows who seem to have a saviour complex of their own. People of this country want security, economic stability and prosperity. They want jobs, education, electricity, roads, etc. People asking for Musharraf's head are either those too dumb to understand the complexities of Pakistan or those so blinded by their hatred for him that they can't see the real motives behind this witch-hunt. I guess its in our national psyche to demonize and vilify our leaders but lets save our energies towards how and who will be able to save us during this time of crisis from the real issues facing our country. If one thinks it will be Zardari or Nawaz or Imran than I can only pray for your ignorant souls.

[Zeenix]

Originally Posted by http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=16535 ..

ISLAMABAD: The top PPP leadership has clearly told important Western diplomatic emissaries, who recently met the party’s Co-chairman Asif Ali Zardari in Islamabad, that if President Musharraf did not resign by Monday evening, the government would not be in a position to provide him a safe exit and he may be placed on the Exit Control List (ECL).

Deputy Chief of Mission of the US Embassy Peter Body called on Zardari along with two other important officials who had come from Washington to discuss Musharraf’s fate two days ago, competent sources told The News.

Though media reports claiming that US Ambassador Anne Patterson had met Asif Zardari proved to be incorrect as she was outside Pakistan and was expected to return late on Sunday, US Embassy sources confirmed Peter Body met the PPP leader as the charge d’Affaires in her absence.

Lou Fintor, press attache of the US embassy, told The News: “We cannot confirm or deny the meeting but we regularly meet with a variety of Pakistani officials, though we do not generally discuss the substance of these meetings.”

Diplomatic sources say the coalition leaders have cautioned Western capitals that any effort or appeal from their governments in favour of a dictator would not be welcomed. There are reports in Washington that an urgent message has been sent by the Pakistani authorities to the US president through unidentified diplomatic channels that Musharrafís name would be put on the ECL immediately after the impeachment and the new elected government would not be in a position to provide him with a safe exit.

Musharraf still has one safe option. He must resign from his office before 5pm on Monday (August 11). In that case, the media and the civil society would not press too hard to produce him in a court of law. If he is not willing to resign and the proceedings of parliament start at 5pm, he would have to face not only the impeachment motion but also trial on a number of criminal charges.

The top leaders of the new ruling coalition in Islamabad have informed some Western diplomats that they had solid evidence of corruption and embezzlement against the president and some of his close family members.

A large number of PPP members also want to investigate Musharraf for his alleged role in the assassination of Benazir Bhutto. One PPP member of the National Assembly is ready to show an e-mail of late Benazir Bhutto sent to CNN’s Wolf Blitzer that if anything happens to her, Musharraf should be held responsible.

Coalition leaders Asif Ali Zardari and Nawaz Sharif are determined to turn the most trusted friend of America in Pakistan into an example because they are sure that the Army is no longer supporting Musharraf.

They understand that if the Army is claiming to be neutral, nobody except Bush is in a position to save him. They would like to send a clear message to Bush, and may already have sent it through discreet channels, that his interference in the politics of Pakistan will spread more anti-Americanism in the only Muslim nuclear power in the world, so he should not call anyone in Pakistan to save Musharraf.

But the key question as to why US President George W Bush is refusing to take phone calls by his ‘tight buddy’ General (retd) Pervez Musharraf, making him a really angry man, is being discussed at every private sitting and every drawing room in Islamabad. The president is not just disappointed with Bush, he is also not happy with some of his old friends in uniform.

Informed insiders say Musharraf has tried to call his American buddy many times in the last few days but in vain as Bush is not available. Why Bush is not coming on the line may be obvious to all those who know how Washington changes its policies, and turns its eyes away from people who are no longer in a position to serve its interests.

They know that Musharraf would not have good news of the arrest ofOsama bin Laden or Mullah Omer when he calls. He would only have some bad news about himself and would want to tell Bush that Al-Qaeda, the Taliban and the ruling coalition in Pakistan have united against him. He would ask Bush to help him in the name of the war against terror but the lines to the US president are not responding.

A prominent leader of the pro-Musharraf Pakistan Muslim League-Q disclosed that Pervez Musharraf was disappointed not only with Bush but also with the Army leadership which is not coming out openly to rescue their “supreme commander” from the “dirty hands of ‘bloody civilians’.î

PML-Q sources claimed that initially Musharraf was thinking of resigning from office and wanted to become the president of the PML-Q. A lady member of the National Assembly started campaigning within the party three days ago that Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain should resign from the party presidentship and offer to make Musharraf head of the party which was actually created in 2002 by Musharraf with the help of the ISI. A big majority of the PML-Q leaders rejected this proposal and advised Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain to stay away from Musharraf who was no longer an asset but a liability.

Another friend of Musharraf recently proposed to him to join the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) of Altaf Hussain. This party is capable of providing him some political cover. Some of his close relatives are already reported to be MQM members.

This MQM link of Musharraf was reinforced by Benazir Bhutto as well when she wrote in her autobiography: “I first encountered Musharraf when he acted as a Turkish interpreter during visits by the Turkish military. I declined to make him my military secretary. We initially refused him a promotion because of his suspected links with the MQM. The final time I recall meeting with him was the most important, when in 1996 he presented to me a war scenario for Kashmir.”

One thing is clear that the main strength of Musharraf was not his enlightened moderation but his military uniform and after taking off this uniform he is now a burden for everyone. It was Musharraf who assigned General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani to get in touch with Benazir Bhutto two years ago when Kayani was DG of the ISI.

Kayani realised soon that the involvement of Army officers in politics was not good for the institution and for the country. Though Musharraf also said the same thing but his actions always contradicted his words.

He is no more Army chief but he is still living in the Army House of Rawalpindi. He has declared it as the President’s Camp Office. He is continuously meeting leaders of the PML-Q there even after their humiliating defeat in the February elections. He never respected the verdict of the people expressed through the ballot. His “forced” stay in the Army House is generally not liked by many Army officers.

Many officers think that Musharraf’s meetings with anti-government politicians in the Army House are meant to give the impression that the Army is still with him, which is not a fact.

According to reliable sources, Army circles have informally sent messages to Musharraf that his time was over and he must resign now in the “supreme national interest”.

Many Army officers support the non-political approach of their new chief and think that Musharraf was their leader for eight years due to his rank and position, not because of his person. As he has lost the rank, he must leave the position of president.

One of Musharraf’s close friends, who is also an important officer, recently advised him privately that though he may still be very popular in Washington and New Delhi but he is no more popular in his own country and now is the time that he must resign as the Army could not support him for another five years. Army officers want a total de-politicisation of their institution and want to contribute to the making of a new democratic Pakistan.

[lahori@denmark]

well if they hang mushi then i m sure we ll have another pakistani hero in the list just like "great" bhatto,s, every kid know that they robbed pakistan when they were incharge but when they were hanged and killed both become hero,, zia ws the worst thing ever happend in pakistan,but many still take him as the hero of not only pakistan but islam..

[kayanni]

At the end of the day he will be given safe passage - the army have stepped in and told Zardari and Ganga this in no uncertain terms that they dont want him tried in a court as all pakistans dirty laundary will be laid to bare and will be bad for all parties..........

The same point has been made by the Americans as well...........quite frankly Mush should go out in a blaze of glory - restore the judges, scrap the NRO by telling the Supreme court to accept Qazi's Hussains petitiion and by default making the elections null and void

The main issue is where he lives Pak or US - he wants to stay but PPP want him out.....

and for the record this issue of Killing innocent Pakistanis applys also to Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in Balochistan and East Pakistan (he played a major role in the war of 1971), BB in Karachi when she orderd the army in in the early 1990's........Ganga for his actions in Karachi

But will the respective parties ever admit it and seek forgiveness - never........ even now the PPP led government is asking the army to kill in FATA but no-one is raising this. Regardless of whether mush started it - the democratic goverment has carried on with the same policies.......why is the PML-N not taking a stand against this.......cos of their single agenda of revenge against Mush rather than the welfare of the country.......

[kayanni]

until there is accountability and a complete revolution by the masses this vicious circle of looting will continue

[the Great Khan]

what really riles me is that Mush is still put up as a hero of pakistan by his supporters...and they say that the economy was fine when he was in charge and its because of teh enw govt that things have gone wrong..erm..thats not true..if the economy was a s strong as Mush claims it should have been able to withstand some of teh shocks in the last few months...but it has crumbled...his lapdog aziz set us up on foundations of wet clay..just search through the forum and you will see where we went wrong!!...

an economy that is resonably robust or dynamic or even emerging doesnt go belly up in a few weeks so drastically!!...the coalition has only been in power for a few months...yet Mush had 9 years!!..he was the most powerful man in pakistans history!!..yet he had the brains of a third grade officer, the mental fortitiude of a coward and the heart of a deluded fool!!....

if he has any amount of shame he will resign but we all know he doesnt...you can say waht you want about ganja and zardari but nawaz built a motorway when we were a bankrupt nation....!! what did Mush do when he had the money? nothing!! he didnt even improve our power infrastructre!! especially when everyone knew it would be a problem!!...what tangible new economic breakthroughs did he achieve?? nothing!!..as a famous former civil servant mr jawadad khan said when asked how aziz would be remebered, his answer was simply "footnote"....!!!

[Serendipity]

silly poll with one sided steer to poll. i think to guage teh fuller picture yu need to expand it to other answers, no and shoduld others be tried etc. usual Juvenile and effusive and unbecoming posts welcome!

[Wazeeri]

Originally Posted by saadibaba Lets ask first from people who are making these claims against Musharraf of what they have actually done for the country. Lets take them one by one.

yes let's not address the issue at hand, let's divert the questioning towards the other looters of Pakistan. Anything to avoid Mush being in the firing line.

but when you have a broken political system that only seem to bring the same old black faces back to power,

May we investigate which institution has "broken" our polictical system?

when you have the worst security situation that Pakistan has ever faced with war going on in different parts of the country

Surely Musharraf hasn't got any hand in this worsened security situation in Pakistan.

and when our economic situation seems to be nearing disaster, the pragmatic person inside me still trusts Musharraf over our politicians.

So the man who has ruined the economy is the one we trust to sort it out.
RIGHt.

I won't go into detail over his contributions to our country but only that we had the highest GDP growth ever in our history during his tenure.

You should spend a bit more time studying economics or just going through charts of economic indicators before making any remarks on the subject.

The most productive era in Pakistan's history in terms of annual GDP growth was another favourite of yours who went by the name Zia ul Haq.

It just so happens that whenever we have a General running the country we get a lot of aid from the US and a lot of sanctions are lifted. If you wish to discuss the economy under Musharraf any further please PM Zeenix and he will direct you to the relevant thread.

If one thinks it will be Zardari or Nawaz or Imran than I can only pray for your ignorant souls.

we the ignorant souls really appreciate your prayers.

[Saj]

yes let's not address the issue at hand, let's divert the questioning towards the other looters of Pakistan. Anything to avoid Mush being in the firing line.

Sadly in this instance, the culprit is a looter and those trying to lay the law to him are looters too, with proven track records to confirm this.

All these people only have self interest at heart and making sure their pockets are full and their overseas properties numbers are increased.

At the end of the day, the man in the street is the one who suffers.

[W63L35]

Shoud face the impeachment.

[Wazeeri]

Sadly in this instance, the culprit is a looter and those trying to lay the law to him are looters too, with proven track records to confirm this.

These looters will face their own looters one day, Inshallah.

With the media and the highly enthusiastic lawyer brigade Pakistan is all set for a democratic system. These criminals are no longer a match for the increased awareness among the population.

[OZGOD]

How much power does the president really have in Pakistan though? I thought it was a ceremonial post?

[Islamabadi]

president could use Article 58 2b of Pakistani constitution to dissolve the parliament..but at this point Army sources are saying they won't back it and are putting pressure on musharaf to resign.

[the Great Khan]

Originally Posted by OZGOD How much power does the president really have in Pakistan though? I thought it was a ceremonial post?

depends what uniform he ends up wearing!!

[feather]

Pakistan Zindabad....Mush Zindabad

[saadibaba]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri yes let's not address the issue at hand, let's divert the questioning towards the other looters of Pakistan. Anything to avoid Mush being in the firing line.

So you can avoid talking about the credibility of people blaimg Musharraf but I cannot. I think it is most relevant to the discussion that we first talk about the people accusing him.

May we investigate which institution has "broken" our polictical system?

More than anyone the politicians themselves. If they were not so incompetent, arrogant and useless we would not have intrusions from the army which every time it happened was cheered by the majority of people. Army came to our rescue when our politicians would have squandered the country away.

Surely Musharraf hasn't got any hand in this worsened security situation in Pakistan.

So you are blaming this on Mush too. This situation eventually developed from the after effects of the Soviet-Afghan war. Musharraf inherited the problem and he did his best to defend Pakistan. He didnt do a perfect job, I would have liked him to be tougher and more aggresive, but atleast he is not with the radical elements like some of the politicans e.g. Imran Khan

So the man who has ruined the economy is the one we trust to sort it out. RIGHt.

Absolutely, because his being there brings stability to the country, which in turn means more foreign investment, stabilization of the stock market and growth. Just look at the state of the stock market since his impeachment has been announced. Ask the businessmen who they like to see in power, you would get your answer.

You should spend a bit more time studying economics or just going through charts of economic indicators before making any remarks on the subject. The most productive era in Pakistan's history in terms of annual GDP growth was another favourite of yours who went by the name Zia ul Haq. It just so happens that whenever we have a General running the country we get a lot of aid from the US and a lot of sanctions are lifted. If you wish to discuss the economy under Musharraf any further please PM Zeenix and he will direct you to the relevant thread.

Zia's era was full of ups and downs but you are right that it has do with US aid but also a lot to do with economic stability, which seems to be more in the times of military rule than democratic rule. Bottom line is how practical you are....if you are one of those people who care only about democracy no matter how hollow, inefficient and toxic it may be for the country than sure, support Zardari. But if you understand the reality of Pakistan, where people are just not ready for the type of democracy we associate with US and UK, reason being lack of education etc. than I would rather prefer a strong centralized quasi-democratic govt. who would have a better chance of bringing security, stability and prosperity to the country.

Its nice to be idealistic, but I rather be practical.

[Islamabadi]

wazeeri and his support of hypocrites like nawaz sharif is laughable

[Khabri420]

Originally Posted by Islamabadi wazeeri and his support of hypocrites like nawaz sharif is laughable

maybe wazeeri is nawaz....

[Asim2Good]

nothing ll happen
they ll give him safe passage on "request" of our "close freinds" and "brother countries"
otherwise NRO is there after all :mush

[Zeenix]

It is really sad that our Rulers (Read Military and Military Dictators) always look towards washington for its political power and survival. Despite Examples like Shah of Iran, Marco, Saddam Hussain and lately Musharaf (who has been trying in vain to contact his Big Brother Bush for support and Bush hasn't taken his call yet). The price that the nation pays for this is beyond the tenure of this ruler.


We paid dearly for Ayub Khan policies, loosing half of our country and are still paying for the follies committed by Mard e Momin Ziaulhaq.

What would have happened, had Musharaf listened to the voice of the nation, The judicial crisis would have been averted, democracy wouldn't have had a smother start in this country, the heavy price that we have been paying for the US war would have been much less, the hatred for the Military and Gen Mush himself would have been a lot less. Today walking on the streets of Pakistan one can clearly feel that if there was one personality that the Pakistanis hated unanimously its Gen Musharaf.

Using every resource available to appease his masters at the Expense of Pakistan and Pakistanis, he bend over to the US to ensure his grip on power. Had he taken the people of pakistan into his consideration, he would have got a much better purchase. Unfortunately Dictators have a remarkable quality to be antagonistic towards the Common People.

Kidnapping of innocent people and sending them packing to US detention centers, bombings of innocent Civilians on US demands, collection of the most notorious people in what he called as a cabinet, Abrogating and violating the constitution at will, demolishing other institutions such as judiciary and Bureaucracy (by appointing his chosen group of Military people with utter disregard of the rules and regulations), siphoning of funds meant for the Earthquake Relief, War against Terror and many instances of financial embezzlement and misuse of authority (without even being a legitimate ruler).

The Pakistani Nation has faced its worst ordeal during Gen Mush rule. Safe passage is simply not on. He must by Made to Pay. Pay for the crimes that he committed against the People of Pakistan. Pay for abrogation of the constitution. Pay for destroying the institutions of Pakistan. Pay for the killings of innocent people, pay for the mess that he has put Pakistan in. Pay for weakening the federation.

If it were possible, i would want him to be Hung for each crime, burned into ashes and those ashes sprinkled on the lawns of White House so that he could be stamped upon by those people he always looked to ensure his stay in power.

[Keith]

Only if the "most intelligent" (a dead give away here) of all world leaders is brought up on war crimes and crimes against humanity as well.

[lakha84]

Musharaff Should Be Hanged To Death And Me

Lakha84 Should Be Made The Next Dictatorship Of Pakistan

[kayanni]

We paid dearly for Ayub Khan policies, loosing half of our country and are still paying for the follies committed by Mard e Momin Ziaulhaq.

Zeenix - Correction on this Zulifkar Ali Bhutto and Yahya were responsible for losing east pakistan because they wouldny accept that the Sheikh Mujeeb had won fair and square in the 1970 elections...........


Ayub left office in 1969

[Zeenix]

Originally Posted by kayanni We paid dearly for Ayub Khan policies, loosing half of our country and are still paying for the follies committed by Mard e Momin Ziaulhaq. Zeenix - Correction on this Zulifkar Ali Bhutto and Yahya were responsible for losing east pakistan because they wouldny accept that the Sheikh Mujeeb had won fair and square in the 1970 elections........... Ayub left office in 1969

It were Ayub's policies that culminated in the breakup of Pakistan. Yahya Khan only administered the final rites. The feeling of deprivation, subjugation was due to Ayub's regime.

[lahori@denmark]

Originally Posted by Zeenix It were Ayub's policies that culminated in the breakup of Pakistan. Yahya Khan only administered the final rites. The feeling of deprivation, subjugation was due to Ayub's regime.

bhatto was product of him and was right infront of all ayubs policies,

[kayanni]

from 1947-71 that was the fault of all of West Pakistans politicians -

yahya was goaded into doing it by ZAB....

the thing is our politicians and the military go hand in hand - they cant live with each other nor can they live without each other.......

all our politicians are products of military ppl and all our army generals are products of politicians........

rem it was ZAB as a democratically elected leader in 1974 who suspended the 73 constitution for 4 years.........since he died has anyone from the PPP stood up and seeked forgiveness for this - no. Same with BB. They are feted as shaheeds.

Shaheed for what i ask?

the fact is until we look and learn from the past and all parties admit their misdeeds we cant really move forward.......as everyone is looking out for themselves......

[Zeenix]

Originally Posted by kayanni from 1947-71 that was the fault of all of West Pakistans politicians - yahya was goaded into doing it by ZAB.... the thing is our politicians and the military go hand in hand - they cant live with each other nor can they live without each other....... all our politicians are products of military ppl and all our army generals are products of politicians........ rem it was ZAB as a democratically elected leader in 1974 who suspended the 73 constitution for 4 years.........since he died has anyone from the PPP stood up and seeked forgiveness for this - no. Same with BB. They are feted as shaheeds. Shaheed for what i ask? the fact is until we look and learn from the past and all parties admit their misdeeds we cant really move forward.......as everyone is looking out for themselves......

We can discuss this in another thread. Just because the Military want to believe that only ZAB was responsible for it, shouldn't be an what we should believe. However as i said, i'll leave it for another thread and focus on this traitor

[Wazeeri]

So you can avoid talking about the credibility of people blaimg Musharraf but I cannot. I think it is most relevant to the discussion that we first talk about the people accusing him.

That is ridiculous.
Let's leave all pending cases until we find someone credible enough to satisfy Saadibaba's criteria.

More than anyone the politicians themselves. If they were not so incompetent, arrogant and useless we would not have intrusions from the army which every time it happened was cheered by the majority of people. Army came to our rescue when our politicians would have squandered the country away

Every country has gone through a phase of corrupt politician but the reason why we have so many successful democracies around is because their armies' were sensible enough to know the long term damage they can cause by interfering in areas which doesn't concern them.

Musharraf inherited the problem and he did his best to defend Pakistan. He didnt do a perfect job, I would have liked him to be tougher and more aggresive, but atleast he is not with the radical elements like some of the politicans e.g. Imran Khan

Following the pakistani affairs only a little would have ensured that you didn't miss the 2 massive deals Mr Mush struck with the MMA.

Absolutely, because his being there brings stability to the country, which in turn means more foreign investment, stabilization of the stock market and growth. Just look at the state of the stock market since his impeachment has been announced. Ask the businessmen who they like to see in power, you would get your answer.

Musharraf has brough anything but stability to Pakistan and well done on referring me to a survey of businessmen which hasn't been conducted yet.

Zia's era was full of ups and downs but you are right that it has do with US aid but also a lot to do with economic stability, which seems to be more in the times of military rule than democratic rule. Bottom line is how practical you are....if you are one of those people who care only about democracy no matter how hollow, inefficient and toxic it may be for the country than sure, support Zardari.

No it is about what standards you hold for Pakistan. Military is restrictive to the economy. It brings stability because it has no coups to fear. The military men are not trained to lead countries so you can't expect them to do anything great. All they can offer is stability which only offers modest economic growth.

The practical aspect of this however is that the military has to eventually leave and the after effects of the militray leaving have been seen in the 90s and the 70s. The military cannot hold and run a country for too long their shelf life is about 10 years going by history.

You are not being practical, you are just being short sighted.

[Wazeeri]

Originally Posted by Islamabadi wazeeri and his support of hypocrites like nawaz sharif is laughable

No what is laughable my friend is that you came onto the debate making tall claims and issuing verdicts on the situation with authority.

Unfortunately you were asked a simple question which has lead to infrequent visits to the forum and one line posts.

What is even more laughable is that I clearly state that I am not a supporter of Nawaz or Zardari but only a few posts later you decide to ridicule me for being one.

Do carry on, we are getting a clear indication of your IQ.

[Savak]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri No what is laughable my friend is that you came onto the debate making tall claims and issuing verdicts on the situation with authority. Unfortunately you were asked a simple question which has lead to infrequent visits to the forum and one line posts. What is even more laughable is that I clearly state that I am not a supporter of Nawaz or Zardari but only a few posts later you decide to ridicule me for being one. Do carry on, we are getting a clear indication of your IQ.

Wazeeri dont get me wrong. I have no problems with civilian democratic rule. But first lets define Democracy? Democracy is defined as the government of the people, for the people right. But is that what really happens in Pakistan. If our civilian democratic leaders had ever actually done their jobs honestly to the best of their abilities they would never ever have given an excuse to the millitary to intervene in any case.

In my view Pakistan's biggest problem is CORRUPTION. It has happened in every government. It is the main reason why we are a third world nation till date. Every civillian government has engaged in the following, massive financial corruption, appointing incompetent and corrupt people to ministeries, abuse of authority, disrespect for the rule of law, disregard for the common man e.t.c. Btw i am no fan of millitary governments and am not saying they are in any way better.

But in my view Democracy has failed to work for Pakistan for the simple reason that the people do not have enough political awareness, confidence in the system, lack of basic primary education, knowledge of the key issues at hand and their basic rights. Why on earth would a nation elect people with proven corruption records beyond doubt not once, not twice but thrice into legislative power. If our masses do not excercise their responsibilities via the vote how do we expect democracy to serve us and our long term interests.

Plus these democratically elected PM once they enter power go around playing with the constitution as if its their play thing. When Nawaz Sharif won the 1997 election with a complete absolute majority in the National Assembly and Senate. He dissmissed the 58-2(b) clause immediately, passed wierd laws for e.g. MNA's can be punished for violating party discipline if they fail to vote in accordance with their parties wishes. We all know Sharif was hell bent on strengthening his powers by becoming Amir ul Momineen e.t.c. His party attacked the SC in 1997, his tiffle with the then COAS Gen Jehangir Karamat who resigned in protest over the way NS was leading the country, we all know he appointed Mushy as the COAS out of turn.

There was massive corruption at that time, if i remember correctly we were close to beeing declared a terrorist state. Nawaz Sharif was never going to be dismissed because the parliament was full of his party members in both NA and Senate when the constitution says a 2/3rds majority is needed to dismiss a PM. So in my view in a political culture like ours a Check and Balance in the form of 58-2(b) is necessary.

But i think we need to modify the system of governance. Why dont we try the system in France, where both the President and Prime Minister run for election. The President is responsible for International Affairs, Millitary. The Prime Minister is responsible for the domestic and economic affairs. We need to change our system.

[Wazeeri]

Originally Posted by Savak Wazeeri dont get me wrong. I have no problems with civilian democratic rule. But first lets define Democracy? Democracy is defined as the government of the people, for the people right. But is that what really happens in Pakistan. If our civilian democratic leaders had ever actually done their jobs honestly to the best of their abilities they would never ever have given an excuse to the millitary to intervene in any case.

This has been discussed many times on pretty much every thread concerning Musharraf.

Democracy or any system for that matter is always in an evolving state. New problems, growing populations, technological advancements....etc require change and adjustments.

Don't expect democracy to develop overnight. It takes years if not decades and it always is going to start off with a trial and error method in regards to the selection of leaders.

The UK parliament which I consider to be one of the best models for a practical democracy still has the House of Lords. This house was supposed to be a transition of power from the monarchy and the powerful lords to a the general population.

We need to give the system some time to develop and ride out the first few terms of the corrupt like Nawaz and Zardari. We need to give our people time to learn how to vote.

The people of Pakistan are not stupid. Allah has given everyone the capability to feel pain. If something hurts us we will not approach it again.

Sooner or later the people of Pakistan will learn the ills of selecting the same old leaders again and again. All we need is for the learning and development process to be allowed to continue without disruption.

The army can never be a long term solution to our leadership problem. because the military is not trained to run a country. Ideally we would have had a decent General staging a coup, sorting out all the systems and leaving it to the assemblies to run the country,

Unfortunately power is too corrupting and whoever attains it cannot let go off it. Whether it be Zia or Musharraf.

[Savak]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri This has been discussed many times on pretty much every thread concerning Musharraf. Democracy or any system for that matter is always in an evolving state. New problems, growing populations, technological advancements....etc require change and adjustments. Don't expect democracy to develop overnight. It takes years if not decades and it always is going to start off with a trial and error method in regards to the selection of leaders. The UK parliament which I consider to be one of the best models for a practical democracy still has the House of Lords. This house was supposed to be a transition of power from the monarchy and the powerful lords to a the general population. We need to give the system some time to develop and ride out the first few terms of the corrupt like Nawaz and Zardari. We need to give our people time to learn how to vote. The people of Pakistan are not stupid. Allah has given everyone the capability to feel pain. If something hurts us we will not approach it again. Sooner or later the people of Pakistan will learn the ills of selecting the same old leaders again and again. All we need is for the learning and development process to be allowed to continue without disruption. The army can never be a long term solution to our leadership problem. because the military is not trained to run a country. Ideally we would have had a decent General staging a coup, sorting out all the systems and leaving it to the assemblies to run the country, Unfortunately power is too corrupting and whoever attains it cannot let go off it. Whether it be Zia or Musharraf.

In the UK Parliament, there is a house of commons and Lords, then there is the monarchy. I believe the house of commons is the parliament house, but what does the house of lords do? Just asking out of curiosity.

[Wazeeri]

House of Lords developed over time.

In the beginning in Britain you had the Kings and their advisors. These advisors were known as the council. The council consisted of noblemen and the clergy. Slowly the council allowed local leaders to join as well.

In the 14th/15th century this council split into two groups one consisting of the nobility upper class and the other with local leaders.

The Lords up until recent reforms were made Lords through inheritance. So they were highly undemocratic. This has been somewhat changed now and the Lords are now appointed by the Queen and the lower house.

They still have a say in the laws of the country and they have the power to over rule the supreme courts.

[saadibaba]

bombings of innocent Civilians on US demands

So you think he has bombed innocent people on purpose, that it was not collateral damage. You really think Musharraf is some blood thirsty sick psychopath who intentionally wants to bomb and kill innocent people. I can understand your criticism for him but do you really believe that he wanted to kill innocent people on purpose.

siphoning of funds meant for the Earthquake Relief, War against Terror and many instances of financial embezzlement

As far as embezzlement of funds are concerned, are you quoting Zardari or do you have any solid evidence to prove it. Zardari has back-tracked on his remarks to the British newspaper. In his recent interview with Hamid Mir he said he was miquoted on it. So please make allegations if you any credible proof.

If it were possible, i would want him to be Hung for each crime, burned into ashes and those ashes sprinkled on the lawns of White House so that he could be stamped upon by those people he always looked to ensure his stay in power

This statement just shows what type of person you are and which group you belong to. I heard similar type of chants during the lawyers march where people making these chants belonged to a specific party/group. I think everyone knows what group that is. Even Aitezaz Ahsan, Musharraf's biggest critic, asked that group to stop these chants and behave themselves. I think any decent person would do the same. But obviously decency is something rare nowadays.

[mumtaz]

Originally Posted by saadibaba So you think he has bombed innocent people on purpose, that it was not collateral damage. You really think Musharraf is some blood thirsty sick psychopath who intentionally wants to bomb and kill innocent people. I can understand your criticism for him but do you really believe that he wanted to kill innocent people on purpose. As far as embezzlement of funds are concerned, are you quoting Zardari or do you have any solid evidence to prove it. Zardari has back-tracked on his remarks to the British newspaper. In his recent interview with Hamid Mir he said he was miquoted on it. So please make allegations if you any credible proof. This statement just shows what type of person you are and which group you belong to. I heard similar type of chants during the lawyers march where people making these chants belonged to a specific party/group. I think everyone knows what group that is. Even Aitezaz Ahsan, Musharraf's biggest critic, asked that group to stop these chants and behave themselves. I think any decent person would do the same. But obviously decency is something rare nowadays.

At best he did not have any concern whatsoever for any possible civilian casualties during his attacks. The amount of collateral damage always should be the most important consideration when launching any offensive. For Musharraf, however, it was never an issue.

[Sheikh]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri But we should execute a few of them.

No individual has the right to take another persons life.

That's what I believe anyway.

[saadibaba]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri No it is about what standards you hold for Pakistan. Military is restrictive to the economy. It brings stability because it has no coups to fear. The military men are not trained to lead countries so you can't expect them to do anything great. All they can offer is stability which only offers modest economic growth. The practical aspect of this however is that the military has to eventually leave and the after effects of the militray leaving have been seen in the 90s and the 70s. The military cannot hold and run a country for too long their shelf life is about 10 years going by history. You are not being practical, you are just being short sighted.

So your solution is to give the political parties a long uninterrupted run, let them be in total charge of the country no matter how badly they handle it, let them sort themselves out because in the end it will be to the people who will eventually learn to choose their leaders sensibly and vote based on merit rather on ethnic or religious lines. Because in the end a long lasting true democracy is worth spending a few decades in darkness for.

Its a great theory, infact I use to have the same argument for people defending Musharraf during his hay days. The problem is will the people of Pakistan who are suffering from lawlessness, joblessness, poverty and a general lack of basic necessities buy into it. Will they choose decades of continued misery over ultimate democratic rule. Ask this question to the person who is hungry, who is jobless, who worries about his and his families security. Recall how people reacted after Mushrraf took over and sighed a sense of relief after repeated failures and incompetencies of previous "democratic" governments. Why did'nt the people come out on on the street and demanded democracy. And what makes you think that now people will react differently if they were put in a similar situation.

[saadibaba]

Originally Posted by mumtaz At best he did not have any concern whatsoever for any possible civilian casualties during his attacks. The amount of collateral damage always should be the most important consideration when launching any offensive. For Musharraf, however, it was never an issue.

I didnt know you had access to top secret information about how Musharraf decides to attack a region, how he does not have any concern for civilian casualties and tells his army to just bomb everyone. How can we make these arguments when we don't even know how army and intelligence agencies decide to bomb a certain area and how they at times don't attack, due to risk of heavy collateral damage. Think about our soldiers who have died trying to fight these radicals. These radicals are taking cover living among people so they don't get attacked. They should be the one's responsible for any innocent lives. You make it seem like all Pakistan army did was kill innocent people on the orders of Musharraf.

[ahsan17]

As far as bombings go, you're right about collateral damage. We can't let terrorists hide under innocent lives, as we might take 10 innocent lives, but a group of them will take several hundreds. These terrorists fail to listen, look where peace talks went with them. You're left with no option really but to attack them. Look what the new government is doing - very much the same thing.

[mumtaz]

I have heard one Mush supporter say that we should just nuke the tribal areas, kill everyone and start from scratch. People here seem to belong to the same school of thought.

I cant believe that we can talk of collateral damage as nothing serious, almost as if its inevitable. It does mean the loss of innocent human lives including women and children. When did the life of a human being become so cheap and meaningless. I guess the trend nowadays is that as long as me and my loved ones are safe, the rest can go to hell for all I care. If the same thing was happening in one of the cities e.g. Lahore or Islamabad, the same people who are now dismissing loss of human life as collateral damage would be up in arms crying about what is happening.

[saadibaba]

Originally Posted by mumtaz I have heard one Mush supporter say that we should just nuke the tribal areas, kill everyone and start from scratch. People here seem to belong to the same school of thought. I cant believe that we can talk of collateral damage as nothing serious, almost as if its inevitable. It does mean the loss of innocent human lives including women and children. When did the life of a human being become so cheap and meaningless. I guess the trend nowadays is that as long as me and my loved ones are safe, the rest can go to hell for all I care. If the same thing was happening in one of the cities e.g. Lahore or Islamabad, the same people who are now dismissing loss of human life as collateral damage would be up in arms crying about what is happening.

Noone is saying collateral damage is a great thing. Its unfortunate loss of lives and should be avoided at all costs. But how to deal with the radicals living among innocent local people. If any of the local leader tries to assist Pak govt. they cut his head off to make an example out of him. Someone has to stop these elements, their should be talks/negotiations, but one can only talk with these people with a strong threat of force and from a position of strength. Media and politicians who hate Musharraf fail to present the real challenges we are facing in that region and instead try to blame everything on Musharraf and his policies. What should we do instead, tell them go ahead, do what you want, take over, we will just stay out of their way. Let them close down girls schools, shut down barber shops, kill anyone who doesnt agree with them. Whats the solution.

[DeSi_DoN]

I heard about a woman in Pakistan from the outskirts of Islamabad, leaving her newly born baby, she went to Lahore to vote against Musharraf in the Punjab Assembly.
When asked why she came from such a distance to vote, she said, "Voting against Musharraf is definately another form of Jihad"
This dictator has been selling off innocent people in the names of terrorism, I can make a large list against him and I am sure you all will probably know what he has been doing, to sum up, Musharraf should be hanged, this punishment would also be injustified!

[kayanni]

Originally Posted by Zeenix We can discuss this in another thread. Just because the Military want to believe that only ZAB was responsible for it, shouldn't be an what we should believe. However as i said, i'll leave it for another thread and focus on this traitor

Fine - but my point is that they are as bad as each other the military generals and Politicians.......there is really no difference in style

Agree that ZAB wasnt only responsible for 1971, the army was to blame as well but ZAB in his tenure did exactly the same as Mush is doing now...........balochistan, constitutional crisis etc

[ahsan17]

Originally Posted by mumtaz I have heard one Mush supporter say that we should just nuke the tribal areas, kill everyone and start from scratch. People here seem to belong to the same school of thought.

No we do not feel that we should nuke the whole tribal areas. That's just something you're assuming based on one person. Collateral damage does not imply nuking the whole place

I cant believe that we can talk of collateral damage as nothing serious, almost as if its inevitable. It does mean the loss of innocent human lives including women and children. When did the life of a human being become so cheap and meaningless. I guess the trend nowadays is that as long as me and my loved ones are safe, the rest can go to hell for all I care. If the same thing was happening in one of the cities e.g. Lahore or Islamabad, the same people who are now dismissing loss of human life as collateral damage would be up in arms crying about what is happening.

For one thing, if I were to give my life, to save lives of 20 people, I would do it. Again, the main argument is that we're taking a few lives, to save many. I don't know what you rather have happen- 20 lives taken away or 500. For me it's quite obvious, don't know about you. Also, if these terrorists blow themselves in major cities, it gets much more media coverage.

As for your last statement, totally incorrect. I totally supported the Lal Masjid operation, as those Lal Masjid molvies were training future terrorists in the so called masjid. If we had to take away 100 lives (most of them terrorists probably as well) to save several hundred or thousand more, why not?

[Zeenix]

Originally Posted by saadibaba So you think he has bombed innocent people on purpose, that it was not collateral damage. You really think Musharraf is some blood thirsty sick psychopath who intentionally wants to bomb and kill innocent people. I can understand your criticism for him but do you really believe that he wanted to kill innocent people on purpose.

Collateral damage against one own people. Laughable. Because you are not talking about foreign territory, you are talking about one own country. And between what about the Lal masjid, what about the scores of people who went missing.

As far as embezzlement of funds are concerned, are you quoting Zardari or do you have any solid evidence to prove it. Zardari has back-tracked on his remarks to the British newspaper. In his recent interview with Hamid Mir he said he was miquoted on it. So please make allegations if you any credible proof.

I'll let it pass, because in this forum i have provided Musharaf Corruption and financial embezzlement information, in military equipment and others. I'll just enlighten you with some of the corruption in privatization.

1) Habib Bank Limited (HBL) 51 percent shares were sold out to Agha Khan Fund For Economic Development in December 2004 for only 22 Billions Rupees, its total assets were more than 570 billion Rupees ($8.76 billions).
2) United Bank Limited (UBL) was sold out only for 13 billion Rupees whereas its assets amount to 300 Billion Rupees.
3) Karachi Electrical Supply Corporation (KESC) was sold out for only 16 billion Rupees
4) Pak Saudi Fertilizer in Mir Pur Mathelo wan handed of to Fauji (military) Foundation in 2002 for just 8 billion Rupees. At the time, it annual profit was more than 4 billion Rupees
5) At Multan, Pak Arab Fertilizer was handed over to Arif Habib Group for only 13 billion Rupees. The price of the land of this factory was over 40 billion Rupees at the time of sale in 2006.
6) On 15 July 2006, the largest Public sector factory Pak American Fertilizer was handed over for just 16 billion Rupees.
7) Lahore historic Fallaties hotel is sold out for only 1.21 billion Rupees. It is located in the heart of Lahore with over 50 canal of precious land.

And if it is not enough Transparancy International has claimed in their 2006 report that the Musharraf government (2002-2006) is more corrupt (67%) than PPP's second government (48%) and Nawaz Sharif phase II (34%).

This statement just shows what type of person you are and which group you belong to. I heard similar type of chants during the lawyers march where people making these chants belonged to a specific party/group. I think everyone knows what group that is. Even Aitezaz Ahsan, Musharraf's biggest critic, asked that group to stop these chants and behave themselves. I think any decent person would do the same. But obviously decency is something rare nowadays.

I am not asking anything other then what the LAW of Pakistan states about such crimes. True burning him to ashes was OTT, but once he is dead it doesn't matter. Remember that abrogation of the constitution is a crime, and under article 6 this person Must be hanged. So whats wrong in asking the law to take its course. I don't see any problems with it. Its you who is asking that a murderer be let scott free. Now what should i understand from this stance of yours. That you are a supporter of letting murderers, law breakers, tyrants scot free.


saadibaba for too long we have had the criminals walking away scott free. Its time that they are made to pay. Military needs to be reigned in. Mush needs to be made an example so that another General thinks thrice before over ruling civilian rule. True that Civilian rule haven't been perfect, but to make it better we need continuity and not interruptions by Military adventurers. This country wasn't created for the generals. It is meant to be ruled by people elected by the people. Its a shame that some people support dictators despite knowing that our ills are due to these very dictators.

[the Great Khan]

For one thing, if I were to give my life, to save lives of 20 people, I would do it. Again, the main argument is that we're taking a few lives, to save many. I don't know what you rather have happen- 20 lives taken away or 500. For me it's quite obvious, don't know about you. Also, if these terrorists blow themselves in major cities, it gets much more media coverage. As for your last statement, totally incorrect. I totally supported the Lal Masjid operation, as those Lal Masjid molvies were training future terrorists in the so called masjid. If we had to take away 100 lives (most of them terrorists probably as well) to save several hundred or thousand more, why not?

what are you waiting for...enrol in PMA kakul and get a move on!!..you can then save plenty of lives by killing many more!!...

the concept of killing a few to save many is alien to Islam, and general sensiblities....its the law the isrealis use to enact collective punishement on the palestinians!...ultimatley how many is enough? the human mind will always change the goal posts to justify their consciences and live in denial!! its a barbaric , inhuman concept...every life is precious and sometimes one has to make compromises to protect all life especially your own countrymen!

the approach being used in the fata is the best way to solve this probelm since Mush failed in his apporach!!....we know that Mehsud and co are being funded by our foreign enemies and so are these swat militants!!..so taking them out is in our interest!!...However allowing our so called friends free reign of the nation , so they may bomb when and where they want, capture who they want, and basically run roughshod over us is ludicrous!!

Mush is a yankophile!!he has a probelm in his head with everything yankee!! and his idea of what Pakistan is all about is limited and silly..the man has no idea why Pakistan is the way it is...its the same excuses, lack of education, pinduness and so forth!!...in 9 years he has taken us to the brink of destruction and then tried to blame a govt that has only been in power for a few months for the inept economic managment of 9 years!!!....chickens always come home to roost and they are coming in droves for general sahib!

yet alas he doesnt have the gharat and izzat to just resign..why? because its in his nature...and that shows how flawed this guy is...if he really cared about pakistan he would have taken his uniform off in 2004!!...he is no better than nawaz and co but is actually worse, because both zardari and ganja have either been exiled,humiliated or served jail terms for whatever they did!!..what has Mush done?

and as to the lal masjid...anyone who supports that operation after what has come to light since doesnt deserve to call themselves pakistanis!!..to jsut blame the "phantom maulvis" is a cop-out and displays intellectual cowardice!!

[ahsan17]

Originally Posted by the Great Khan what are you waiting for...enrol in PMA kakul and get a move on!!..you can then save plenty of lives by killing many more!!... the concept of killing a few to save many is alien to Islam, and general sensiblities....its the law the isrealis use to enact collective punishement on the palestinians!...ultimatley how many is enough? the human mind will always change the goal posts to justify their consciences and live in denial!! its a barbaric , inhuman concept...every life is precious and sometimes one has to make compromises to protect all life especially your own countrymen!

Well if you rather have 500 losses of life instead of 50, be my guest. Yes all lives are precious, but at the end of the day, if you have to choose between 500 people getting killed or 50 (perhaps some of even supporting terrorists), what would you choose?

the approach being used in the fata is the best way to solve this probelm since Mush failed in his apporach!!....we know that Mehsud and co are being funded by our foreign enemies and so are these swat militants!!..so taking them out is in our interest!!...However allowing our so called friends free reign of the nation , so they may bomb when and where they want, capture who they want, and basically run roughshod over us is ludicrous!!

I don't know where you have been. There have been Pakistani soldiers killed by US soldiers after the new government came in as well. And Musharraf did not allow American troops into Pakistan, if that's what you're trying to imply

and as to the lal masjid...anyone who supports that operation after what has come to light since doesnt deserve to call themselves pakistanis!!..to jsut blame the "phantom maulvis" is a cop-out and displays intellectual cowardice!!

Who do you want to blame then? Is it all Musharraf's fault? He's been getting blamed for pretty silly things. If you think it's his fault that terrorists are blowing themselves up, and none of it is terrorist's fault (which is pretty much what you're saying by not putting any blame on maulvis), then I have no comment, and I will not reply to such drivel.

[Wazeeri]

So your solution is to give the political parties a long uninterrupted run, let them be in total charge of the country no matter how badly they handle it, let them sort themselves out because in the end it will be to the people who will eventually learn to choose their leaders sensibly and vote based on merit rather on ethnic or religious lines. Because in the end a long lasting true democracy is worth spending a few decades in darkness for.

What is alternative? Democracy has a future promise, military rule has nothing.
A cash injection based economy, stifled creativity.

The politicians are corrupt but do you seriously believe the Military doesn't steal from Pakistan? Do they come from a special race?

The military is not trained to lead and run a country. They can never be the long term option. Democracy isn't just the best option, it is the only option.

A few years of darkness is a lot better than an eternity.

Will they choose decades of continued misery over ultimate democratic rule. Ask this question to the person who is hungry, who is jobless, who worries about his and his families security.

They just have my friend. Mr Musharraf has been shown the door by the very same hungry, jobless people worrying about the security of their families.

Recall how people reacted after Mushrraf took over and sighed a sense of relief after repeated failures and incompetencies of previous "democratic" governments. Why did'nt the people come out on on the street and demanded democracy. And what makes you think that now people will react differently if they were put in a similar situation.

Recall how the people reacted when they were given a chance to kick Musharraf out.

It isn't just the political parties the pakistani population have had enough off. The people have started hating the army as well and democracy is the only plausible route we have.

[saadibaba]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri What is alternative? Democracy has a future promise, military rule has nothing. A cash injection based economy, stifled creativity. The politicians are corrupt but do you seriously believe the Military doesn't steal from Pakistan? Do they come from a special race? The military is not trained to lead and run a country. They can never be the long term option. Democracy isn't just the best option, it is the only option. A few years of darkness is a lot better than an eternity. They just have my friend. Mr Musharraf has been shown the door by the very same hungry, jobless people worrying about the security of their families. Recall how the people reacted when they were given a chance to kick Musharraf out. It isn't just the political parties the pakistani population have had enough off. The people have started hating the army as well and democracy is the only plausible route we have.

Democracy is the best option, no doubt about it, but what kind of democracy are we talking about. The kind right now, where a party head makes all the decisions and the PM is simply a showpiece. Where parliament was supposed to be supreme but so far none of the issues that really matter to the country like security have been discussed, debated and voted on by them. Where the govt. has simply given a free hand to the army to do whatever they want in the NWFP region. What kind of democracy is this. If this is the type of democracy that we so desperately wanted than what is the difference. Instead of Musharraf we have Zardari.

[Wazeeri]

No this is the first step to getting a democracy which suits us. The current set up cannot succeed and it is bound to get the Pakistanis riled up and once that happens we will see more and more Pakistanis voting a lot more carefully.

If the people can kick Musharraf out then they can kick these two out as well. You can't have the carriages arriving at the station without the engine and therefore we will have to live through the early phase of our learning process. I am afraid a proper functioning system is going to come about through many iterative or evolutionary steps. We will have to start off from this, there is no other option.

[saadibaba]

Collateral damage against one own people. Laughable. Because you are not talking about foreign territory, you are talking about one own country. And between what about the Lal masjid, what about the scores of people who went missing.

I don't know what your definition of collateral damage is but as far as I know, the term can be used for any kind of damage that is unintended or incidental whether in one's own country or others.

I'll let it pass, because in this forum i have provided Musharaf Corruption and financial embezzlement information, in military equipment and others. I'll just enlighten you with some of the corruption in privatization. 1) Habib Bank Limited (HBL) 51 percent shares were sold out to Agha Khan Fund For Economic Development in December 2004 for only 22 Billions Rupees, its total assets were more than 570 billion Rupees ($8.76 billions). 2) United Bank Limited (UBL) was sold out only for 13 billion Rupees whereas its assets amount to 300 Billion Rupees. 3) Karachi Electrical Supply Corporation (KESC) was sold out for only 16 billion Rupees 4) Pak Saudi Fertilizer in Mir Pur Mathelo wan handed of to Fauji (military) Foundation in 2002 for just 8 billion Rupees. At the time, it annual profit was more than 4 billion Rupees 5) At Multan, Pak Arab Fertilizer was handed over to Arif Habib Group for only 13 billion Rupees. The price of the land of this factory was over 40 billion Rupees at the time of sale in 2006. 6) On 15 July 2006, the largest Public sector factory Pak American Fertilizer was handed over for just 16 billion Rupees. 7) Lahore historic Fallaties hotel is sold out for only 1.21 billion Rupees. It is located in the heart of Lahore with over 50 canal of precious land. And if it is not enough Transparancy International has claimed in their 2006 report that the Musharraf government (2002-2006) is more corrupt (67%) than PPP's second government (48%) and Nawaz Sharif phase II (34%).

Why let it pass....please enlighten me with any credible information about Musharraf being personally responsible for any corruption rather than these usless facts and figures on how one bank was sold at what rate.

I am not asking anything other then what the LAW of Pakistan states about such crimes. True burning him to ashes was OTT, but once he is dead it doesn't matter. Remember that abrogation of the constitution is a crime, and under article 6 this person Must be hanged. So whats wrong in asking the law to take its course. I don't see any problems with it. Its you who is asking that a murderer be let scott free. Now what should i understand from this stance of yours. That you are a supporter of letting murderers, law breakers, tyrants scot free.

Thank you for realizing your OTT behaviour. If he has commited a crime, Im sure charges will be brought against him by the current govt. and he will be tried in the court of law. If he is guilty he will be punished accordingly, but lets not jump the gun, let the charges be brought and see how credible they are and what kind of evidence is provided. Innocent till proven guilty.

saadibaba for too long we have had the criminals walking away scott free. Its time that they are made to pay. Military needs to be reigned in. Mush needs to be made an example so that another General thinks thrice before over ruling civilian rule. True that Civilian rule haven't been perfect, but to make it better we need continuity and not interruptions by Military adventurers. This country wasn't created for the generals. It is meant to be ruled by people elected by the people. Its a shame that some people support dictators despite knowing that our ills are due to these very dictators.

What about Zardari, did'nt the NRO let him walk away scott free. You are hell bent on making an example out of Musharraf but you have no problems with our political leaders signing away deals and getting free. Give Musharraf atleast some credit. He presided over a free and fair election, gave freedom to the media and tried to start a new chapter of national reconciliation and unity by letting the politicians back. It backfired on him as he failed to recognize the corrupt and malignant nature inherent to these characters. His only weakness is he trusted democracy to work, he thought politicians after all those years will stop being vindictive and egotistical and learn to work together for the common good of the country. After all he was not going to be there permanently. He was overlooking the transition and hoping for stable govt. to start functioning so he can retire in peace, he should have known better.

[saadibaba]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri No this is the first step to getting a democracy which suits us. The current set up cannot succeed and it is bound to get the Pakistanis riled up and once that happens we will see more and more Pakistanis voting a lot more carefully. If the people can kick Musharraf out then they can kick these two out as well. You can't have the carriages arriving at the station without the engine and therefore we will have to live through the early phase of our learning process. I am afraid a proper functioning system is going to come about through many iterative or evolutionary steps. We will have to start off from this, there is no other option.

When people rile up against the current set up, it will not motivate them to vote but rather "not to vote" as they would have lost all faith in the democratic process. What alternative set up can there be. There are 2 big parties and if one is out the other will be in and so on. Are you expecting some third party/leader to win over the whole country or reforms within these 2 big parties so we don't have the same old faces or their families running them. Chances of either of this happening atleast in our lifetimes are next to none. So how long will we have to wait.

[Zeenix]

Why let it pass....please enlighten me with any credible information about Musharraf being personally responsible for any corruption rather than these usless facts and figures on how one bank was sold at what rate.

credible information. Who you trying to kid. Yourself. If State organizations being sold at throw away prices isn't corruption, then what else it is. i expected better from you. People can be so gullible.

Thank you for realizing your OTT behaviour. If he has commited a crime, Im sure charges will be brought against him by the current govt. and he will be tried in the court of law. If he is guilty he will be punished accordingly, but lets not jump the gun, let the charges be brought and see how credible they are and what kind of evidence is provided. Innocent till proven guilty.

The charges are there for everyone to see. Two admissions by the General himself are enough to make him a candidate for the hangman's noose. Innocent until proven guilty. What useless argument. That person has Admitted to two of the crimes that he committed. Such an arrogant *******.

What about Zardari, did'nt the NRO let him walk away scott free. You are hell bent on making an example out of Musharraf but you have no problems with our political leaders signing away deals and getting free. Give Musharraf atleast some credit. He presided over a free and fair election, gave freedom to the media and tried to start a new chapter of national reconciliation and unity by letting the politicians back. It backfired on him as he failed to recognize the corrupt and malignant nature inherent to these characters. His only weakness is he trusted democracy to work, he thought politicians after all those years will stop being vindictive and egotistical and learn to work together for the common good of the country. After all he was not going to be there permanently. He was overlooking the transition and hoping for stable govt. to start functioning so he can retire in peace, he should have known better.

Blah Blah Blah Blah. These argument have been repeated by and by again and again by every supporter of the General. Its time you guys invest some time into finding some new arguments for the General's defense. NRO isn't Zardari Specific. All the people Including GENERAL MUSHARAF himself is the beneficiary of the NRO. At least Zardari spend 13 years in prison without charges being proved. Let Musharaf spend 13 years in Prison and then you can negotiate a deal for him.

The text that you wrote is not only factually incorrect but it also makes a lot of assumptions. If you really believe what you wrote above, then good luck to you, but my only advice is don't be so gullible in your practical world, otherwise a rude awakener awaits you.

In the end, there is one thing. THE People of Pakistan Rejected him, and this is what SHOULD matter.

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

so should be zardari and ganja...
the foreign reserves have gone down 6 bn dollars since after this zardari chor govt has taken charge.zardai is the biggest a ********** who is willing to sleep for anyone that offers him a higher price.that guy even got his own wife killed for power.