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#1
19th October 2008, 00:17
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Hindu Extremists driving Christians from their homes
I just saw a report on BBC News 24 about Hindu extremists turning Indian Christians into refugees. They're being given a convert to Hindusim ultimatum and if they refuse then they are subjected to beatings, rape and in many cases murder. The report was about Orissa.
What's going on in India? It was the Sikhs in 1984, the Muslims in 1992 and 2002, the threats to Buddhists over mass conversions of Dalits over last decade or so and now the Christians are in the firing line! I wonder do Indians still deny that there is a problem with Hindu fundamentalism and extremism in India? 
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#2
19th October 2008, 00:49
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that's sad to hear... it happens in Pakistan too... in some areas... and it really should stop there is no room for this type of treatment towards other individuals... they should learn from western countries on these kind of topics.. everyone is equal and that's how it should be.. religion should not be the basis of judgment and forcefully trying to convert someone to something they don't want to be is the worst thing ... and it's quite embarrasing for the country has a whole and more importantly the religion as a whole...
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#3
19th October 2008, 02:17
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Always think before you speak and in the case of Internets, think before you write just in case to avoid looking like a stupid. These tubes are merciless. Last edited by HillRock; 19th October 2008 at 02:22.
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#4
19th October 2008, 02:23
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^^ forced out of homes maybe not... but violence targeted at christians has unfortunately occurred in Pakistan as well.. here are some examples..
http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2004/608/ http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...08-05-26-6.cfm http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/...tan-church.htm http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=43537
__________________
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#5
19th October 2008, 04:37
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__________________
I look forward to protecting Michael Vick Lane Johnson..
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#6
19th October 2008, 05:04
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#7
19th October 2008, 07:10
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#8
19th October 2008, 14:12
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#9
19th October 2008, 16:22
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 we're not even close... but maybe we're slightly better then India but I'm not even sure about that... plus we don't have that many christians/hindus to affect compared to India...Although the Taleban in Pakistan is not so nice towards other religious groups in Pakistan but counting them as Pakistanis is useless cause they hurt muslims as well in the country... they are just themselves violent animals...
__________________
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#10
19th October 2008, 17:34
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#11
19th October 2008, 18:00
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Pakistanis are no angels and we have our own problems in this area but the thing that I just cant understand about what happens in India is the mobs.
Neighbours take to the streets in huge mobs to maim, rape and kill their neighbours. In Pakistan we have to be wary of bombs but you'll never find mobs wondering the streets checking to find uncircumcised people to slaughter in public on the streets. Why is India susceptible to this sort of behaviour? I find it hard to understand why it happens in India and not Pakistan. After all once you strip away religion, borders and caste/zaat we're all the same people!
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#12
19th October 2008, 18:19
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Assam in the 80s. The killing of Sikhs post Indira Gandhi's assasination. Mumbai rioting after the blasts in the 90s. Gujarat. And now Christians in Orissa. So yes, it seems that we do have a trend of mobs. Part of the reason is the very religious diversity in India; and how different communities live close by (I doubt if Pakistan has that kind of religious diversity, so it may be harder to picture). I also doubt that many countries - outside of the Western world and those few- have the same diversity. That itself does not create mobs; what probably does is the way in which people are affiliated - by religion. Then you poverty to the mix, which breeds ignorance. Finally combine that with ready made and very deep political organizational structures (in a society that tries to be democratic) that are idiotic (VHP) or sometimes taken over by vicious idiots (Congress leadership post Indira Gandhi's assassination). These political organizations can get people together for a peaceful protest, or hooligans together for a riot. But such conditions that create mobs exist everywhere; football fans hooliganism in England in the 1990s (IIRC) for example. Mobs can come together anywhere - you need organization for it to become sustained. Just an aside; I am trying to answer the specific question of why mobs form in India, not discuss religious extremism or why it happens.
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#13
19th October 2008, 19:27
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show me one country with so many religions living together and not go all out civil war... India has been doing it for centuries.
Christian groups need to be taught some lesson though....they have been silently targeting the tribal uneducated areas and converting them to christianity for ages. Forced/ Improper conversions should be dealt with force.
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#14
20th October 2008, 01:54
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Best thing I suggest for peace and harmony in all countries; let us all be happy with who we are. Time for conversions has passed, Jesus & Mohammed are long gone, this is the 21st century lets all be happy with who we are at this current state, time and live happily...That should def bring end to all the violence..
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I look forward to protecting Michael Vick Lane Johnson.. Last edited by Romali_rotti; 20th October 2008 at 02:25.
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#15
20th October 2008, 02:23
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I can only see problems unless there is a major shift in attitudes.
On one hand you have hindu fundamentalists like Bajrang dal that behave like a Hindu version of Taliban. Then you have Christian evangelists that feed on poor and backward tribals but of the two at least the evangelists are doing social work and giving these tribals hope, what ever their motives for doing it. Why can’t hindu fundamentalists also compete in doing social work rather than just focus on conversion issue. But that requires some bloody hard work and living your life with poor people rather than just going and bashing them up.
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#16
20th October 2008, 05:36
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Acknowledging the existence of a problem is the first step towards solving it. Unfortunately, a large number of Hindus like to bury their heads in the sand like Ostriches and just refuse to believe that extremism in the religion has reached such despicable levels that it threatens to tear apart the secular fabric of the country. They feel terrorism is the domain of other religions only.
Then there are some who think Hindu fundamentalism is required to counter extremism from other religions. An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind. It is ironic that all this is being done in the name of a religion which says 'All religions are equal. Religion is just a path for connecting to the Almighty.'
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#17
20th October 2008, 15:52
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#18
20th October 2008, 16:08
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Poverty and lack of education mixed with diversity is not a good combination.
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#19
20th October 2008, 19:49
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 ..
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Adherent Muslim! PPP: "Pakistan khappay!" PML-N: "Lagao thappay!" Last edited by DHONI183; 21st October 2008 at 10:55.
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#20
20th October 2008, 20:24
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Rather than attacking those who are trying to help the poor and destitute (whatever their secret agenda), why dont you go out there and help them yourselves. Surely they'd prefer to be helped by their co-religionists and not have to become baptised in order to feed their children. One of the guys was a TJ (Tableeghi Jamat) and I pointed out to him that rather than camping out in the woods and going on 'bonding' holidays to Spain they could go around feeding and clothing the poorest of the poor so that they dont become targets for evangelism but that fell on deaf ears as usual.
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#21
21st October 2008, 11:59
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merc why are you having a go at our tableeghi friends?? lets all go on gusht and jamaat and eat luddo's , who cares about the thousands in poverty and destitution.."maulvi sahib nay kaha hay so it must be right"..yaar merc i expected more from you!
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------- And let not their speech grieve you (O Muhammad), for all power and honour belongs to Allah” [TMQ Yunus: 65]
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#22
21st October 2008, 17:30
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one thing is for sure.. some pakistanis here have become submissive to the indians their "masters" and its a sin for them to compare with india.
yes we do have problem with minorities in pakistan but not to extent as india. at least our fundamentalist muslims dont rape nuns front of church fathers and rape them to take out anti religious revenge. this happens in india under government order... infact 60-100 poor christians have died and 100,000 displaced. if you want links i will be happy to provide that.. and oh.. those idiots who think pakistan gives no freedom to minorities.. just have a look at kalash tribe.. it has survived for over 15000 years! they are not forced to convert but when they interact with other muslim tribes some actually do convert to islam.
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#23
21st October 2008, 17:38
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Firebrand Indian politician's arrest sparks unrest
MUMBAI (AFP) – A firebrand political leader in the western Indian state of Maharashtra was arrested Tuesday on charges of inciting rioting, sparking clashes here between stone-throwing supporters and police. Raj Thackeray was brought under tight security to a Mumbai court where angry supporters of his nationalist Maharashtra Navnirman Sena (MNS) tried to destroy cars and rickshaws and clashed with baton-wielding police outside. Thackeray was later released on conditional bail over the alleged attacks Sunday by his MNS supporters on northern Indians in central Mumbai and separately in a district northeast of the financial capital. The northern Indians had come to Mumbai at the weekend looking for jobs on the railways, incensing MNS or Maharashtra Reconstruction Army activists who believe Maharashtrians were under-represented in the recruitment process. Anticipating trouble over his seizure early Tuesday, police had made some 2,000 "preventive arrests" while about 20,000 extra officers were deployed at likely hotspots throughout the Mumbai area, state police chief A.N. Roy said. But there were still sporadic outbreaks of violence in the city. Supporters armed with stones attacked taxis, buses and auto-rickshaws and attempts were made to burn other vehicles and set up road blocks, Indian media reported. Further unrest was reported elsewhere in the state. Thackeray, who has been banned from making public speeches for two months, had condoned Sunday's attacks and warned Maharashtra state officials they would "regret" the consequences of his arrest. "If Raj is arrested, entire Maharashtra will be set on fire," Thackeray reportedly warned. The MNS is a regional party that strongly supports jobs for local people and promotes the use of the Marathi language and culture. It is an offshoot of the Shiv Sena or Shivaji's Army, which is run by Thackeray's uncle Bal Thackeray, who was behind the change of the city's name from Bombay to Mumbai. Shiv Sena activists were also identified in a judicial report as being involved in the deadly communal riots between Hindus and Muslims in Mumbai in 1992-93 that left more than 1,000 people dead. Raj Thackeray recently locked horns with Indian cinema's biggest star, Amitabh Bachchan, after the actor's wife said she preferred speaking Hindi to Marathi.
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#25
21st October 2008, 18:22
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#26
22nd October 2008, 03:11
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Being from the same state, I was really hurt hearing about this.
But I found out a different story when I visited there last month. As per the locals, the attack is not on Christians but the clash between two hindu communities (for variety reasons). However, a lot of ppl from one of the communities (mostly tribes) are converted Christians and hence being looked upon as attack on christians (can see some political angle). But the truth is other ppl from that community ( non-converted ones) are also being attacked. NOT pointing out to deny anything but what I heard from locals and read in local media.
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#27
25th October 2008, 17:10
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Christians face attacks in eastern India
TIKKABALLI, India – They still worship in what remains of the little Baptist church not far from this forest town. The church is empty except for the rubble swept neatly into the corners. The sun comes through ragged holes where the mob smashed in the window frames.
On the roof, the crucifix is just twisted metal and broken concrete. It's barely recognizable, and you have to ask to make sure that's what it once was. Here, prayers are said only in secret. "We do it without making any noise," said Subhash Digal, holding his four-month-old son on his hip as he stood outside the church, where the smell of burned timber lingered on a warm autumn afternoon. "We don't want these people to know we are inside." In this corner of the eastern state of Orissa, it's hard to find a Christian who isn't afraid. Bloody anti-Christian riots broke out here in late August, rampages by Hindu hard-liners that since then have left at least 38 people dead, as many as 30,000 homeless and dozen of churches destroyed. The worst of the violence ended after a week or so, when authorities finally deployed soldiers to set up checkpoints and relief camps. But nearly every day since then, the trouble has continued: a house burned, a carload of people beaten, a soldier hacked to death. Repeatedly, Christian villagers say, they have been told they must convert to Hinduism. The anti-Christian violence has also flickered across other parts of India, with churches vandalized and Christians attacked in the high-tech hub of Bangalore, the city of Mangalore and the coastal state of Kerala. In a country desperate to be seen as a stable, democratic world power, the violence is a window into India's hidden fragility, its sometimes-dangerous political climate and the fierce historical divisions buried in its vast diversity. India is more than 80 percent Hindu but its 1.1 billion people include all of the world's major religions, a caste system of near-impossible complexity, colossal divides of wealth and poverty, and, by some estimates, more than 2,000 ethnic groups. "If you look at Africa, you don't see this kind of diversity, if you look at all of Europe, you don't see this kind of diversity," said Swami Agnivesh, a Hindu intellectual and liberal social activist. When it comes to India's continued existence: "Sometimes I think it's a miracle." Trouble can seem inevitable. In just the past couple weeks violence has ranged from the northeastern state of Assam, where at least 50 people have died in ethnic clashes, to the central state of Madhya Pradesh state, where three people were killed in religious riots after a Hindu procession passed through a Muslim neighborhood. Then there is Orissa's Kandhamal district, where widespread trouble began after the Aug. 24 killing of Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, a hard-line Hindu leader who rose to prominence in the area by advocating that Christian converts return to Hinduism. Police blamed Maoist guerrillas for the killing, though it's unclear why they would have targeted him. But Hindu militants quickly turned on local Christians, setting fire to a Christian orphanage and attacking churches and Christian-owned shops and homes. A nun accused a Hindu mob of raping her. At least 32 people have been killed, tens of thousands have fled their homes and thousands are believed still to be hiding in Orissa's thick forests. The Kandhamal region is a place where villagers tend farms in small valleys circled by humpbacked hills, and where roadside ponds are filled with swimming children and floating lotuses. But it's also a place long cut off by poverty and illiteracy, where electricity is unknown in most villages and the pay for day laborers — the only job most people hope for — is 30 rupees, or 60 cents. That wage is only for men: Women earn 20 rupees, or 40 cents. Kandhamal has long been a battleground over Christian missionary work among low-caste Hindus and the indigenous people known in India as "tribals." While Christians account for just 2.5 percent of India, their population in Kandhamal has risen sharply in recent decades, reaching nearly 20 percent by the last census in 2001. Hindu militants say the reason for this is obvious: Missionaries are forcing or bribing people to convert, stealing followers from India's true religion. "This is a kind of cultural invasion," Gauri Shankar Rath, a top official in the Orissa state VHP, the umbrella organization of Hindu nationalists, said in a telephone interview. "Our culture is being attacked." Missionaries dismiss such accusations. And conversion does offer worldly benefits: For the low-caste, there's a partial escape from the stigmas of the Hindu caste system. Some missionaries also reach out to followers by building medical clinics and schools. But as with much of India's violence, the obvious rationale for Kandhamal's bloodshed is really just one tile in a mosaic of discontent. Much of the bitterness here is rooted in competition between two groups struggling at the bottom of India's social spectrum: the Panas and the Kandhas. The Panas are dalits, the group once known in India as "untouchables," while the Kandhas are tribals. The two have long competed for land, and more recently for jobs and school seats reserved by the government for the disadvantaged. Over the past 20 years, the Kandhas have largely remained Hindu while many Panas have converted to Christianity, tangling religion into their conflict. Christians — even dalit converts — are not supposed to be eligible for reserved positions, but many Kandhas insist Pana Christian still find ways to get them. The Christians deny the accusation. Then there is politics. Many of the attacks, victims say, were carried out by the Bajrang Dal, a militant group closely allied to the Bharatiya Janata Party, a Hindu nationalist political party that is part of Orissa's coalition government. The Hindu right-wing has long stirred up religious resentments as a way to shore up its voter base — and Orissa, as people here quickly point out, is expected to hold elections early next year. "This isn't a war between Hindus and Christians," said Ugrasena Rana, a 32-year-old Hindu from Bujulimendi, a small village where a roaming gang burned down a half-dozen or so Christian homes after the swami was killed. "This is a war between the Bajrang Dal and the people who will not follow their commands." In some ways, though, the Christians of Bujulimendi are lucky. Their Hindu neighbors have tried to protect them, and many Christian families now sleep in Hindu homes in case the mobs return. The situation is grimmer outside the ransacked Baptist church, where villagers say their attackers included many people they knew. That mob, about 50 people armed with knives, swords and clubs, stormed through the village, chanting the name of the Hindu god Ram as they destroyed the church and Christian homes. Since then, smaller groups have returned repeatedly. There is seldom violence, but they state their message bluntly: convert or die. Eventually, villagers worry, the threat will be carried out. "What can we do?" asked Digal, the man dangling his baby. "They are trying to force us to become Hindu." So will he convert? "I don't know," he said, staring down at the ground. "I haven't decided yet."
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#28
25th October 2008, 17:31
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source please
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#29
25th October 2008, 17:34
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