Aaqib and action modifying

[Mercenary]

In my recent interview with Mohammad Aamer he mentioned that he has had a serious back injury (2 stress fractures) and that in order to stop him from hurting himself further, Aaqib had made some modifications to his action.

To me it sounded quite reasonable because Aamer seems to have his head screwed on right about how to deal with serious injuries and if the action change can help prevent more stress fractures of the back then why not?

Can the opposers of action modifying tell me why they oppose it with examples and proper reasons for their concerns.

I'm due to interview Aaqib sometime in January and I want to put the question to him, so I'd like to know the exact objections and concerns you have about it.

[Savak]

Like Waqar said coaches now days are forcing players to focus more on preventing injuries rather than maximizing their skills, talents and abilities. Lets get one thing straight, if we are talking about pace then injuries have to be accepted period. I dont want a team of Rao's and Rauf's bowling 123-124 km/hr with the new ball. Please that is so not Pakistan.

[Waseem]

I think Aaqib is overly criticised for modifying actions, most people think that he is modifying actions which results in reduction of bowler's speed. Most youngsters have praised him and he has successfully worked with lot of U19 teams, i am sure he does that to prevent injuries and Aamer's case is a clear example. Aamer has already missed few tournaments(at the age of 18) and there is no harm in changing his action a bit to prevent career threatning injuries.

[IAJ]

Originally Posted by Waseem Aamer has already missed few tournaments(at the age of 18)

Officially he is still 16. But it is not a good sign for his future that he is having a troublesome back at this age

[Monsee]

This is my post from Aamir's interview thread:

Changing/Modifying a bowler's cation is not something to be taken as lightly as Mr. Action Changer does; he seems to have roughly changed a dozen bowler's actions by now.

In places like Australia, there is a whole biomechanics department which takes time with the bowler, analyzes his action, body position at release, feet alignment, follow through, bowler's physique etc. and they still take time to even suggest any modifications. Once modifications are made, they still supervise the bowler for a period of time to ensure he does not break down with another injury due to his new action!

Aaqib, on the other hand is doing all this based on what? Does he even hold a degree or has some sort of a back ground which makes him an authority to do such a change? Just holding a coaching certification or two does not make him an authority in to this sensitive issue.

Please name me one of them bowlers who became a better bowler after Aaqib worked his 'Action Changing Magic' on him...the list of failures is rather long.

If it was so easy then Malinga, Thompson etc. could have had their actions modified just like that rather than having a career full of injuries!

[IMMY69]

Originally Posted by Mercenary In my recent interview with Mohammad Aamer he mentioned that he has had a serious back injury (2 stress fractures) and that in order to stop him from hurting himself further, Aaqib had made some modifications to his action. To me it sounded quite reasonable because Aamer seems to have his head screwed on right about how to deal with serious injuries and if the action change can help prevent more stress fractures of the back then why not? Can the opposers of action modifying tell me why they oppose it with examples and proper reasons for their concerns. I'm due to interview Aaqib sometime in January and I want to put the question to him, so I'd like to know the exact objections and concerns you have about it.

none whatsoever

leave the guy alone...

[Sultan Yusuf]

This is what I posted in another thread - in reply to Immy69's arguments about why the bowlers or the management haven't come out in defence of it:

The point is a lot of bowlers don't even know what's good for them. Aqib obviously has spent time with them and convinced them that this is the way to go. The bowlers, being simple fringe contendrs are probably only too happy that a reputable ex-international player is helping them. I'm not really doubting Aqib's sincerity, in his own way he probably thinks he is helping and trying to do the right thing, but when you see what he's produced or more importantly failed to produce, then maybe he isn't doing things right.

The Management haven't complained because for the last 4 years all they've been interested in is medium pacers in the futile attempt to unearth Pakistan's army of glen mcgraths. On top of that, there's this stupid push for Pakistan to appear to be professional. Aqib ticks these boxes because he is studying the technicalities and trying to get qualified. Nothing wrong in that, but one crucial ingredient he is missing is that he's trying to apply the same formula to everyone. In his interviews all he ever talks about is getting the "feet alignment" and "body alignment right". He has to realise that all bowlers have different actions and even "tweaking" their "alignments" has a massive impact on their bowling. He doesn't apply any individuality. All he seems to have done is worked out a common technique and seems to be applying the same thing to all the bowlers.

And for your information some people have expressed their displeasure with all this action changing. Waqar has openly come out and said that all this technical mumbo jumbo is reducing the bowlers' speed. I even remember Noddy sahb on PP specifically stating that Aqib is no good for the team because of his "action changing" tendencies. (This was a couple of years ago IIRC)

And once again as myself, monsee and savak have asked on countless occasions - where are the benefits of aqib's "magic"? Name me one fast bowler that has actually improved under Aqib and the academy system?

[IMMY69]

monseebhai, i know logic rarely applies to everything in pakistan..but all i am trying to do is to apply a little bit of logic here...

what good has aqib done? god knows...perhaps he has helped youngsters gain some control with the ball...pehaps he has shown them how to swing the ball - who knows??? i havent had first hand experience of his coaching...

what harm has aqib done? well do we really know that he has? afterall, how can a bowling coach remain the coach for such a long period of time without anyone noticing that he is potentially ruining peoples careers?

there is another aspect too, perhaps the lack of any real express bowlers since the retirement of waqar/wasim, absence of shoiab, injury to zahid...has meant that many fans (particularly the youngsters) have just not accepted reality...the reality being that there havent been any real potential speedsters coming into pakistan cricket over the last decade...

with respect to rauf, monsee you maybe able to dig up an old post i made some years back....i met faisal iqbal in london at my cricket club and asked him point blank who in his opinion are the upcoming new young fast bowlers in pakistan domestic scene...he just looked at me, shook his head, and said the fastest two by far are shoiab and sami...everyone else is doesnt even come close..

[Sultan Yusuf]

I would also like to add that ok fine, lengthening careers may happen, but at what cost? If the bowler is not the same bowler any more and as a result of the action change is not a contender any more (e.g. Rauf, Irshad), then what good has this career lengthening done? So they can play domestic cricket for 20 years? I'm sure if you ask each of these bowlers, they'd say they'll rather have 3 years of regular international cricket playing for pakistan than spending 20 years in domestic cricket.

The other point is even if they do break down after 3 or so years, they have tasted international cricket, they have learnt and even if they don't come back as quick, they still have some of the nuances of fast bowling to succeed or play a critical role in the national side. Take Waqar as an example. He broke down in 1992 and 1995 with serious back injuries, but it didn't kill his career. He was still effective post 1995 if not as destructive. He learnt to deal with international batsmen and still had ways of taking wickets.

[IMMY69]

Originally Posted by Sultan Yusuf This is what I posted in another thread - in reply to Immy69's arguments about why the bowlers or the management haven't come out in defence of it: Again Immy basing his arguments on "what ifs". The point is a lot of bowlers don't even know what's good for them. Aqib obviously has spent time with them and convinced them that this is the way to go. The bowlers, being simple fringe contendrs are probably only too happy that a reputable ex-international player is helping them. I'm not really doubting Aqib's sincerity, in his own way he probably thinks he is helping and trying to do the right thing, but when you see what he's produced or more importantly failed to produce, then maybe he isn't doing things right. The Management haven't complained because for the last 4 years all they've been interested in is medium pacers in the futile attempt to unearth Pakistan's army of glen mcgraths. On top of that, there's this stupid push for Pakistan to appear to be professional. Aqib ticks these boxes because he is studying the technicalities and trying to get qualified. Nothing wrong in that, but one crucial ingredient he is missing is that he's trying to apply the same formula to everyone. In his interviews all he ever talks about is getting the "feet alignment" and "body alignment right". He has to realise that all bowlers have different actions and even "tweaking" their "alignments" has a massive impact on their bowling. He doesn't apply any individuality. All he seems to have done is worked out a common technique and seems to be applying the same thing to all the bowlers. And for your information some people have expressed their displeasure with all this action changing. Waqar has openly come out and said that all this technical mumbo jumbo is reducing the bowlers' speed. I even remember Noddy sahb on PP specifically stating that Aqib is no good for the team because of his "action changing" tendencies. (This was a couple of years ago IIRC) And once again as myself, monsee and savak have asked on countless occasions - where are the benefits of aqib's "magic"? Name me one fast bowler that has actually improved under Aqib and the academy system?

right so a destroyer of fast bowling is heading the blowing academy??

what ifs? where do u get off from high horse claiming things that are absolutely untrue???? all i said was that if aqib is so bad then how is he allowed to be the head coach of bowling? and you say i am basing my arguments on 'what ifs?'

even if i am wrong and you are right...and i hear you about noddy, waqar etc...but all you had to do is to state your points and not start off by saying that 'again i am basing my arguments on what ifs'...get over yourself and please refrain from trying to put me down to reinforce your argument..

get it?

[IMMY69]

Originally Posted by Sultan Yusuf I would also like to add that ok fine, lengthening careers may happen, but at what cost? If the bowler is not the same bowler any more and as a result of the action change is not a contender any more (e.g. Rauf, Irshad), then what good has this career lengthening done? So they can play domestic cricket for 20 years? I'm sure if you ask each of these bowlers, they'd say they'll rather have 3 years of regular international cricket playing for pakistan than spending 20 years in domestic cricket. The other point is even if they do break down after 3 or so years, they have tasted international cricket, they have learnt and even if they don't come back as quick, they still have some of the nuances of fast bowling to succeed or play a critical role in the national side. Take Waqar as an example. He broke down in 1992 and 1995 with serious back injuries, but it didn't kill his career. He was still effective post 1995 if not as destructive. He learnt to deal with international batsmen and still had ways of taking wickets.

rauf, irshaad were never ever real express bowlers...please prove me otherwise...my argument is based on speaking with several firstclass players a few years back...

prove me wrong please or shall we stick to the 'what if' line of arguing?

[Sultan Yusuf]

Originally Posted by IMMY69 right so a destroyer of fast bowling is heading the blowing academy?? what ifs? where do u get off from high horse claiming things that are absolutely untrue???? all i said was that if aqib is so bad then how is he allowed to be the head coach of bowling? and you say i am basing my arguments on 'what ifs?' even if i am wrong and you are right...and i hear you about noddy, waqar etc...but all you had to do is to state your points and not start off by saying that 'again i am basing my arguments on what ifs'...get over yourself and please refrain from trying to put me down to reinforce your argument.. get it?

For your benefit, since you have asked....I will remove that opening sentence. I hope you can sleep better at night now!

[IMMY69]

Originally Posted by Sultan Yusuf For your benefit, since you have asked....I will remove that opening sentence. I hope you can sleep better at night now!

yes thank you...i'll sleep much better now!
but then i guess you'll still be having that recurring nightmare...'aqib javed...the destroyer of up and coming express fast bowlers'..
'no no aqbiv..please dont'

[Sultan Yusuf]

Originally Posted by IMMY69 rauf, irshaad were never ever real express bowlers...please prove me otherwise...my argument is based on speaking with several firstclass players a few years back... prove me wrong please or shall we stick to the 'what if' line of arguing?

I'm not saying they were express bowlers either, but from a lot of accounts they were sharp. Most bowlers get quicker after they have entered international cricket and a lot of bowlers hit real express pace after a couple of years in international cricket. Examples being: Waqar, Imran, Wasim, Sami, Mitchell Johnson...the list goes on and on.

All we want is someone with pace potential. The problem with Aqib is that pace potential normally goes out of the window after he's dealt with them.

I think Aqib has a lot to give to pakistan cricket - he could offer crucial advice on out-swing, bowling with the new ball, control etc. But this action changing doesn't seem to be his thing.....

[IMMY69]

Originally Posted by Sultan Yusuf I'm not saying they were express bowlers either, but from a lot of accounts they were sharp. Most bowlers get quicker after they have entered international cricket and a lot of bowlers hit real express pace after a couple of years in international cricket. Examples being: Waqar, Imran, Wasim, Sami, Mitchell Johnson...the list goes on and on. All we want is someone with pace potential. The problem with Aqib is that pace potential normally goes out of the window after he's dealt with them. I think Aqib has a lot to give to pakistan cricket - he could offer crucial advice on out-swing, bowling with the new ball, control etc. But this action changing doesn't seem to be his thing.....

ok..thing is that i dont think any bowling coaches in the world is gonna suddenly give us express bowlers...its just the way it is...we were spoilt with imran khan, wasim, waqar, zahid (albeit very breifly), and to a certain extent with shoiab...i am prepared to accept reality in that for the past 5 or 6 years we just havent produced an express bowler...we may do in the future but not just right now...i for one cant just blame aqib for that...

all the bowlers used in recent times, from the little i have seen of them, just dont look like the kind of bowlers that would set the world alight..i am hoping that i'm wrong...but thats just the way i see it..

the only bowler in recent times that had me perking up was asif...no pace..but his bowling was just something to behold for someone with such little experience...but who knows now what will become of him...

just another thing, umar gul has had injuries, but seems to have increased his pace if anytyhing...during the period of his back injury i would be interested to know if aaib was involved at all in his rehabilitation.

if no one can answer that for me then perhaps this could be one of thr questions asked to aqib...

[Legendary_Sage]

Originally Posted by Sultan Yusuf I'm not saying they were express bowlers either, but from a lot of accounts they were sharp. Most bowlers get quicker after they have entered international cricket and a lot of bowlers hit real express pace after a couple of years in international cricket. Examples being: Waqar, Imran, Wasim, Sami, Mitchell Johnson...the list goes on and on. All we want is someone with pace potential. The problem with Aqib is that pace potential normally goes out of the window after he's dealt with them. I think Aqib has a lot to give to pakistan cricket - he could offer crucial advice on out-swing, bowling with the new ball, control etc. But this action changing doesn't seem to be his thing.....

Some very good points are made here by SY.
Before i use to think that Aaqib is right in tuning the young bowlers actions but eversince i saw Malinga and Mendis.
I tend to believe in theory of Mahela Jayawardene, Aamir Sohail , Waqar that "LET THE NATURAL TALENT FLOW"
I wouldn't blame Aaqib for Abdul Rauf because abdul rauf himself said that his action wasn't modified by Aaqib.
But Aaqib is responsible for changing action of few youngesters and results are poor to say the least.
So i agree with Monsee,Savak and SY that Aqib with all his sincere efforts is unable to benefit our cricket.
We need Waqar or Wasim as our bowling coach.

[Wazeeri]

Mercs

This is from our interview

PakPassion.Net: Bowling action change Mohammad Irshad: My run-up was as long as Shoaib Bhai’s…just over 30 meters. But recently I have shortened it to around 22 yards. Aaqib Bhai has re-modeled my action and it’s more front-on now. Although at the moment I do not feel I can give as much thrust and power to my bowling but Aaqib Bhai has assured me that in a matter of some weeks, there would be a world of a difference.

[Legendary_Sage]

Bye Bye mohammad Irshad.
U were a good prospect but ............

[Monsee]

'Although at the moment I do not feel I can give as much thrust and power to my bowling but Aaqib Bhai has assured me that in a matter of some weeks, there would be a world of a difference.

We have seen that world of difference...the poor guy has completely gone AWOL now

[Monsee]

Originally Posted by IMMY69 rauf, irshaad were never ever real express bowlers...please prove me otherwise...my argument is based on speaking with several firstclass players a few years back... prove me wrong please or shall we stick to the 'what if' line of arguing?

Rauf was very quick at the start of his career...ask anyone who had seen him at the start of his career!

As for Irshad, Our own Rashid Latif, Shoaib and a few others vouched that he is almost as fast as any other bowler on the domestic scene...in fact, Shoaib was saying he is ready for the team!

So, I don't know which FC cricketers you spoke with...but somone in all this was making stuff up.

As for your point about Asif in another post...Noddy actually said when Asif came on the scene, he was actually much quicker but he slowed down a bit to gain better control

[IronMan2009]

Nothing wrong with modifying action to prevent injury. Akram was a freak talent.

[lahori@denmark]

i m no expert in bowling but i belive every bowler can bowl between 130-140+ but its an extra talent in some guys to make bowl 145+ or 150+ but when they change action this extra talent is been taken away and they just become the bowler which can bowl between 130-140, apart from that the fear of getting injured is also in the minds of new kids this shld be solved and try to make these guys athletes so they be injury free, rather then putting less effort while bowling or changing actions for less injury etc, look at australian and sa bowlers they don,t have any diffrent action which cld be discribed as injury free or no action cld be discribed as injury free, its the athlatic body which makes them fit fast bowlers..

actions shld only be changed to make them better bowler with better speed , better control on swing and seam etc, this theory of preventing them from injury by aqib is not fair

[Savak]

My theory is that there is no complete universal set of practices for everybody. Fast bowling cannot be taught completely, some basics can be taught but the fast bowlers can only learn through experience and practice. I am sure every fast bowler eventually knows what is best for him and what he feels comfortable doing. Its very easy for someone like Aqib to stick his CV out and tell a young inexperienced kid with no international experience "Listen kid, i know way more than you do so dont argue with me and do as your told". Besides I am pretty sure Aqib's recommendations count a lot in our cricketing circles these days.

Bottom line Aqib is not only the coach, he is also in a strong influential position as well and most probably these young fast bowlers dont want to get into his bad books. It was shocking to read about Irshad doing everything Aqib was telling him blindly when Irshad himself was not a 100% of the end result of what he was doing. There are a hundred different bowling coaches around the world with degrees and i am sure they could all have different opinions to Aqib, so does that mean Irshad and Co have to listen to all of them?

No, i would rather trust a legend i.e Waqar Younis who saw the highs and lows of life. Who used to ball express pace, who faced the worst, most career threatening injuries, who even lost his express pace which was his main weapon but still had the character, will and determination to adjust his bowling and be equally effective. So this alone qualifies Waqar much more than all of Aqib's coaching certificates put together.

Besides if we even take work experience into account, how long has Aqib been coaching in Pakistan? 5 years? How many successful fast bowlers he coached are playing for Pakistan? And compare that to Waqar who had at best one year as bowling coach and worked wonders with Umar Gul, helped Rana rediscover his form e.t.c.

If there was an international bowling coach position available we all know Waqar will be able to sell himself much more easily then any of Aqib's coaching certificates could help him.

[bdchamp20]

I think Aaqib was also responsible for changing Mashrafe's action which drastically reduced the no. of injuries he had. But that drastically brought down his pace as well.

[Savak]

Originally Posted by bdchamp20 I think Aaqib was also responsible for changing Mashrafe's action which drastically reduced the no. of injuries he had. But that drastically brought down his pace as well.

That really begs the question then, what is the point of reducing injuries if it takes the special sting out of the bowler?

[Mercenary]

I was hoping for some well thought out responses but all I've heard so far is speculation and what amounts to a witch hunt.

The two names offered in evidence are Rauf and Irshad.

Firstly let's cross Rauf off the list because I've already asked him this question and his response was...

PakPassion.Net: Is it true you were told by a selector or a coach to cut down on your runup and action or you wouldn't get into the national team? Abdur Rauf: It's true that I did slow my pace down by altering my runup and action but it wasn't something I was made to do. It was my own choice, nobody told me to do it. What you have to understand is that it's senseless to continue with such a demanding action for years and years at domestic level. If as a fast bowler you don't get into the national team at an early age, then your chances for making it into the team become very limited. You never stop trying but you need to be honest with yourself about what sort of beating your body can keep taking everyday. You have to economize with your runup and your action and concentrate on out thinking batsmen rather than just blasting them out.

Rauf told me that it was his own idea to change his action because he wanted to prolong his career. So can we stop mentioning Rauf's name as one of the ones Aaqib 'destroyed' because it's not true.

Moving on to Mohammad Irshad, he had a poor domestic record before and after his action change. The only plus in his favour for international selection was the big names mentioning his supposed pace.

I remember what used to worry me at the time about Irshad (before Aaqib changed his action) was that I'd heard from a few people that his pre-change action was illegal. It was even mentioned several times on PP.

Without knowing the full facts about Irshad's action and the reasons for it being changed, we are still blaming Aaqib for it.

Monsee you named at least a dozen bowlers Aaqib has changed the action for. Can you name all 12 because I want to ask him about it.

[Wazeeri]

Rauf told me that it was his own idea to change his action because he wanted to prolong his career. So can we stop mentioning Rauf's name as one of the ones Aaqib 'destroyed' because it's not true.

In the interview i think Rauf also mentions that he has hardly met Aaqib.

Mercs

But do see post #17 and ask Aaqib about it.

[dblock]

What about this theory...

Great recent bowlers after Aquib changed their action = 0
Great recent bowlers after Aquib didn't change their action = 0.

I don't think Aquib is that powerful in making super quicks into trundlers after a few coaching sessions.

[naqlipathan]

aaqib said he worked with umar gul and changed his action

i dont think that helped because gul is still very prone to injury

[Sultan Yusuf]

Originally Posted by Mercenary I was hoping for some well thought out responses but all I've heard so far is speculation and what amounts to a witch hunt. The two names offered in evidence are Rauf and Irshad. Firstly let's cross Rauf off the list because I've already asked him this question and his response was... Rauf told me that it was his own idea to change his action because he wanted to prolong his career. So can we stop mentioning Rauf's name as one of the ones Aaqib 'destroyed' because it's not true. Moving on to Mohammad Irshad, he had a poor domestic record before and after his action change. The only plus in his favour for international selection was the big names mentioning his supposed pace. I remember what used to worry me at the time about Irshad (before Aaqib changed his action) was that I'd heard from a few people that his pre-change action was illegal. It was even mentioned several times on PP. Without knowing the full facts about Irshad's action and the reasons for it being changed, we are still blaming Aaqib for it. Monsee you named at least a dozen bowlers Aaqib has changed the action for. Can you name all 12 because I want to ask him about it.

Yes but if you read carefully, I very much doubt he came to the following conclusion all by himself:

Originally Posted by Rauf What you have to understand is that it's senseless to continue with such a demanding action for years and years at domestic level. If as a fast bowler you don't get into the national team at an early age, then your chances for making it into the team become very limited. You never stop trying but you need to be honest with yourself about what sort of beating your body can keep taking everyday. You have to economize with your runup and your action and concentrate on out thinking batsmen rather than just blasting them out.

This conclusion seems to have been reached by some sort of consultation with someone or the other. It could be Aaqib, it could be someone else. Sure it was his own decision and if you read the response carefully, it's in a bit of a defensive tone. It seems to me anyway, that he feels challenged that he is not his own man. So whilst I'm sure eventually he had the final say, it seems he has been receiving some questionable advice.

Now I know the purpose of this thread is to ask aqib questions, but for me, be it aqib or whoever else, we need to stamp this sort of thing out of our mentality. In most interviews I've read over here - be it that ex-u19 coach mansoor rana, aqib, rauf, irshad, aamer it seems to be a recurring theme. Everyone's always talking about economising actions to prolong careers. It's obviously something that has been drummed into our recent cricketing philosophy. It needs to be removed or at least moved down the list of priorities. Aqib is in a position to make this happen and being national academy coach is probably the right person to communicate this to.

It seems more of a coaching fashion to continuously talk about injuries. I remember dennis lillee harping on about this too whilst coaching at the MRF pace academy, but what did he actually produce there? I saw no express pacer come out of there. Every indian bowler to come out of his academy was a mediocre medium pacer and all faded away after their initial start. Only now maybe Ishant is possibly a decent find but I don't think Lillee had much if anything at all to do with him. Zaheer has only become world class since he started to reverse the ball. Some of it down to wasim, some probably his own initiative but again it wasn't coached by lillee or anything.

[Wazeeri]

Originally Posted by Sultan Yousuf It could be Aaqib, it could be someone else. Sure it was his own decision and if you read the response carefully, it's in a bit of a defensive tone. It seems to me anyway, that he feels challenged that he is not his own man. So whilst I'm sure eventually he had the final say, it seems he has been receiving some questionable advice.

It couldn't have been Aaqib

PakPassion.Net: Aaqib Javed, what kind of memories does this name conjure up in your mind on a personal level? Abdur Rauf: I know him in passing, nothing more than that.

[Pakiboi123]

Well, Mohammad Aamir, Ko Dood Aur Zaida peena chaeeay/

[Sultan Yusuf]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri It couldn't have been Aaqib

Ok maybe. But my point is to remove this from our cricketing mentality as mentioned in the penultimate paragraph of my last post.

[Wazeeri]

Other than Irshad I can't find anything against aaqib

[Sultan Yusuf]

It would be interesting to hear noddy's views on this.

[Sufian84]

atleast aqib is coach at NCA. who else is better option than him? Sure imran, wasim, waqar. Imran is a politician and doesnt hav time.
Wasim has commentary, business etc etc, but make himself available 2 weeks each year. These 2 weeks helps our bowlers, but a fast bowler need coaching whole year.
waqar has issues with pcb but he did a good job last time with the team

so i think that we should just be thankful that aqib takes some time to coach the youngsters

[MalikMohsin]

Remember Mohammad Asif? He was nothing before and after the coaching from Aqib, has indeed helped Asif to improve his bowling. Before the Aqib, Asif used to be fast bowler with consistent 140 KPH, but he was very struggling to pick the wickets. Now, he can easily pick the wickets with average speeds. Brilliant!

What i believe is Aqib can be very good coach. He can help bowlers to put it use very well with new ball. Speaking of Waqar, only can help with reverse swing, little to gain pace, and somewhat aggressive. Perhaps, we need both of them with to use new ball very well and old ball to reverse

[offstump]

i still don't think we fully know the extent of this action "modifying" that aaqib javed has become famous for...you really need to get to the bottom of this in your interview with him....but if i'm guessing i think he's just fine tuning the action of some bowlers, similar to how you would take your car into the garage for a tune-up...however, if aaqib is changing the bowlers actions only for the sole purpose of lengthening their careers at the expense of their natural talent, i.e. pace then he should be fired...you are rendering the player useless if you take away his main weapon whatever that may be...

[Monsee]

Bottom line is:

1- Coaches all over the world agree that 'You don't mess with originality' otherwise we would never have seen the likes of: Murali, Jeff Thompson, Chanderpaul, Lara, Malinga, Mendis etc. etc. Usually coaches like to fine tune the actions/techniques but don't mess with the originality!

2- Merc, the names off the top of my head are: Rauf, Irshad, Sami-ullah Niazi (Noddy said he broke down right after Aaqib messed with his action), M. Aamir...rest are mostly rumors or word of mouth names which I have heard about.

3- Gul was already a strong and world class bowler before he worked with Aaqib and I don't think he has improved much on anything except Reverse Swing which he probably learned from Waqar (while he was our bowling coach) and fine tuned it by practicing it. I don't see much of any change in his action at all...in fact it looks exactly the same as before

4- Asif was a fine bowler even before...he did performed before he got selected for Pak team...yes, after working with Aaqib, he seemed to have learned how to seam/swing the ball but in most of his interviews he talks about the hard work he himself put in to get better at his skills.

5- Waqar first broke down while Imran was still the skipper...now Imran himself changed/modified his own action during the course of 1971 through 1978; if anyone had any idea how to change an action, Imran was it but he never even suggested it because he knew how drastic it can be to change someone's action just like that!

6- What is Aaqib's qualification for being able to change a bowler's action...does he holds a degree in Bio-mechanics or what? How did he became the authority on this subject and if he is so good then where are his successful apprentices?

I think we should ask Aaqib (in the next interview) what gives him the authority to meddle with a bowler's action and can he walk us through the process of how he goes about doing it?

Lastly, name a few bowlers he changed actions of, who became better after he changed their actions?

[offstump]

gul's action became more streamlined if you remember when he first came onto the scene he would run up to the crease and then kind of do a stop and jump action...now he has more flow but this is mostly his run-up not his action....come to think of it, it was probably waqar who helped with his run-up...

[Monsee]

Originally Posted by offstump gul's action became more streamlined if you remember when he first came onto the scene he would run up to the crease and then kind of do a stop and jump action...now he has more flow but this is mostly his run-up not his action....come to think of it, it was probably waqar who helped with his run-up...

Exactly, Aaqib is getting the credit which Waqar should be getting to begin with!

[MalikMohsin]

You are forgetting that Under Aqib coaching, Gul was arguably the best with new ball but struggled with old ball i believe. After under Waqar coaching, Gul with old ball has drastically improved a lot but departed with his bowling improved with new ball. However, it's like 1,2,3 and 3,2,1. Like i said, in order to improve on both parts, is best way to have Aqib and Waqar working together as coaches.

[Monsee]

Originally Posted by MalikMohsin You are forgetting that Under Aqib coaching, Gul was arguably the best with new ball but struggled with old ball i believe. After under Waqar coaching, Gul with old ball has drastically improved a lot but departed with his bowling improved with new ball. However, it's like 1,2,3 and 3,2,1. Like i said, in order to improve on both parts, is best way to have Aqib and Waqar working together as coaches.

I am not taking any credit away from Aaqib...he probably is a brilliant coach and a genuine one too but 'Action Changing' is a no no unless he has a PHD in Bio Mechanics and can prove to us that he is right (by showing us a few bowlers who became a better bowler after action modifications)

[qadoos]

Cricketers are born are not made, sometime the over coaching can destroy natural ability,
I was their when Rashid went for yorkshire under 11's trial.he was natural and i said to his dad he will go all the way and he did because he had natural ability
when ECB organised Brian Johnstone wrist spin programme there were so many talented young leg spinners in the programme who were so good,it was very difficult to separate who was better,in that programme headed by Terry Jenner (shane warn's)mentor among them their were Adil Rashid(yorkshire)akbar ansari (surry)vishal tripathi (lancashire)Asrar Qadoos(derbyshire)and few more out of all these only one has made it others became robott's could not even ball at stamps. my son Asrar was so many time highlighted in local and national news paper and made it in observer magazine for september but two years with terry jenner he lost his natural ability so personal experience people should leave them alone if end product is right

[Mythsmoke]

what a strange debate..
it starts from a legitimate query..gets hijacked into "aaqib is the devil"...and then degenerates in to some cheap political rally.. "aaqib bhai jaaway jaaway...hamara waqar aaway aaway!"
nothing learned

[Wazeeri]

Rauf, Irshad, Sami-ullah Niazi (Noddy said he broke down right after Aaqib messed with his action), M. Aamir...rest are mostly rumors or word of mouth names which I have heard about.

Ishad - Yes

Rauf - No, Rauf has said that he hardly knows Aaqib.

M Aamer keeps on breaking his back, something needed to be done. He is also getting faster not slower.

Will wait on Noddy Bhai for Samiullah Niazi.

[muhammad saad]

looks like Muhammad Aamer has been benefiting from changed action ,six wickets in an inning again.

[Sultan Yusuf]

What gets to me is that so many people just want to bury their heads in the sand and think "ohhh the pcb are trying hard" etc etc. "they're more professional now.let's give them a chance" etc etc

This is not just an aqib issue, it is an issue for pakistan cricket overall. Fast bowling has been the heartbeart of pakistan cricket. It has been fast bowling that kept us competitive in international cricket. So if there is something happening that is hurting our fast bowling, it needs to be addressed - it may well be unintentional, but all the same it still needs to be addressed.

[Wazeeri]

I think there was a time when not doing anything was hurting our fast bowlers and we lost people like Mohammad Zahid to lack of precautions.

[Ghoshtbuster]

I agree with Waqar Younis' views on this issue. Cricket is one sport where there is ample room for an individual to express himself in the game and create an impact. This idea of regimenting all fast bowlers is not good.

However, I think we must be careful not to associate a negative vibe towards "action changing" - because in some cases it becomes a must. Fast bowlers will get injured (which should not really be an issue) but experts on fast bowling will be able to recognise serious deficiencies in an action which could lead to severe problems beyond cricket - which should be helped.

[Legendary_Sage]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Ishad - Yes Rauf - No, Rauf has said that he hardly knows Aaqib. M Aamer keeps on breaking his back, something needed to be done. He is also getting faster not slower. Will wait on Noddy Bhai for Samiullah Niazi.

Samiullah Niazi got unfit after Waqar changed his action during England tour.After the injury he is not the same bowler he use to be.

[Monsee]

Originally Posted by Legendary_Sage Samiullah Niazi got unfit after Waqar changed his action during England tour.After the injury he is not the same bowler he use to be.

I remember Noddy saying it was Aaqib who changed his action, not Waqar?

[MalikMohsin]

Samiullah Niazi was included in the Pakistan squad for the tour of England. Waqar was there, coaching several bowlers in England, and not sure whether he was one of them. Aqib wasn't there in England back then. There was no mention about Aqib Javed remodeling Samiullah Niazi action. Being Waqar in England for coaching purpose, looks like Waqar must have remodeled Samiullah action. What surprises me that none of Pakistani fast bowlers like Sami, Shahid Nazir were benefited from Waqar short term coaching.

[Savak]

Originally Posted by MalikMohsin Samiullah Niazi was included in the Pakistan squad for the tour of England. Waqar was there, coaching several bowlers in England, and not sure whether he was one of them. Aqib wasn't there in England back then. There was no mention about Aqib Javed remodeling Samiullah Niazi action. Being Waqar in England for coaching purpose, looks like Waqar must have remodeled Samiullah action. What surprises me that none of Pakistani fast bowlers like Sami, Shahid Nazir were benefited from Waqar short term coaching.

Shahid Nazir I think he had a decent tour of England and WI when Waqar was the bowling coach.

Sami was crap no matter which coach you gave him.

Interesting you forgot to mention Gul, Rana, Asif who did well when Waqar was the bowling coach.

[MalikMohsin]

Originally Posted by Savak Shahid Nazir I think he had a decent tour of England and WI when Waqar was the bowling coach. Sami was crap no matter which coach you gave him. Interesting you forgot to mention Gul, Rana, Asif who did well when Waqar was the bowling coach.

Asif was coached by Aqib before he was included in Pakistan squad. To be honest, what i believe is because of his hard work has made him best bowler, not because of coaching merely by Aqib Javed.

Shahid Nazir may have done average in England. West Indies was less than average Test team. Sadly, we still continue to boast the performance from Rana, Gul against West Indies. Gul what i believe is, his performance drastically changed after WC T20, and not before, he was remained average in spite of successful average against West Indies. What happened to Rana, Sami is totally predictable especially in green seaming condition pitches.

Rana struggled against India in Pakistan - 2006. Then, he continued to struggle in England for ODI. He remained consistent average performer in Champion Trophy that taken place in India. Therefore, simply his best performance against West Indies would not earn my praise.

To be fair, both Aqib and Waqar are average coach. Nevertheless, are far better than any fast bowling coach in the world. Whether to have coach or not, but very important for fast bowler to work very hard. Asif did and so is Gul. I see Tanvir is working very hard.

[aabbasi]

Originally Posted by Monsee This is my post from Aamir's interview thread: Changing/Modifying a bowler's cation is not something to be taken as lightly as Mr. Action Changer does; he seems to have roughly changed a dozen bowler's actions by now. In places like Australia, there is a whole biomechanics department which takes time with the bowler, analyzes his action, body position at release, feet alignment, follow through, bowler's physique etc. and they still take time to even suggest any modifications. Once modifications are made, they still supervise the bowler for a period of time to ensure he does not break down with another injury due to his new action! Aaqib, on the other hand is doing all this based on what? Does he even hold a degree or has some sort of a back ground which makes him an authority to do such a change? Just holding a coaching certification or two does not make him an authority in to this sensitive issue. Please name me one of them bowlers who became a better bowler after Aaqib worked his 'Action Changing Magic' on him...the list of failures is rather long. If it was so easy then Malinga, Thompson etc. could have had their actions modified just like that rather than having a career full of injuries!

Totally agree to what monsee is saying here.... As we have a famous proverb
"Neem Hakeem - Kahtra-e-Jaan"

Besides Coaching and biomechanics are totally different fields, one is more of administration job and the other is a science... Not sure how an "FA-PASS" coach can change somebody's action ??

[Wazeeri]

Originally Posted by Monsee My bad on Rauf...but what has the action changing done for Aamer; care to tell me if he has stopped getting injured all the time?

He just took a load of wickets, as did Talha.

[Monsee]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri He just took a load of wickets, as did Talha.

and before that he was out injured and took a few wickets and was injured before that too...see the pattern?

For every successful (so far) action change/tinkering...we have 2-3 who did not survive the surgery

[IMMY69]

Originally Posted by Monsee and before that he was out injured and took a few wickets and was injured before that too...see the pattern? For every successful (so far) action change/tinkering...we have 2-3 who did not survive the surgery

amer is 16 years of age...his body is still growing...it will take time before his body and action are in sink...

irshaad - no more said i think - remember this is the guy who said he can bowl in and out reverse swing at 90mph+.....

[Couch Cricketer]

After Akhter we had no other fast bowler coming up the ranks we heard about them in
u19 cricket etc but after that you never heard from them as they went out because of injuries
If it wasn;t for Aqib Jawed and NCA we would have also lost talha & aamer etc by now
Waqar younis was half the bowler he was because of his injuries and still he is considered a modern great if he had even an inkling of knowledge that would have saved him from his back trouble he would easily have become the greatest fast bowler ever

Umar Gul is another player we would have lost by now if he hadn't worked in the NCA to find out how to protect his back and ribs

[Wazeeri]

For every successful (so far) action change/tinkering...we have 2-3 who did not survive the surgery

So far we have only one (Irshad) not 2-3.

Aamer and Talha are faster and better. This may be just down to growing up, gaining experience and getting stronger but these two examples cannot be used against Aaqib.

All we have is Irshad's speed going down.

[Savak]

Though Aqib has good intentions but Waqar also raised a legitimate point on this issue. If someone can interview Waqar and raise this issue in detail, we might get a fair picture of where he stands on the issue and how he actually concurs or disagree's with Aqib's philosophy.

[Wazeeri]

From what Aaqib has said his philosophy isn't much different to Waqar's

[Savak]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri From what Aaqib has said his philosophy isn't much different to Waqar's

Some bowlers have had their actions changed by Aqib for e.g. Irshad and he is struggling now, i dont know any other names. But Waqar when he raised the issue, it was clear he was refering to the lack of express fast bowlers around the world and especially in Pakistan. And he said that by modifying bowler's actions for the sole purpose of minimizing injuries as much as possible, they were sacrificing speed as a result.

Bottom line what Waqar was trying to say was that if you want pace, you will have to put up with injuries.

[shaun3]

Originally Posted by Savak if we are talking about pace then injuries have to be accepted period.

That is easy for us to say but we are not dealing with stress fractures to the back and other such serious injuries.

nobody is considering the bowler's own opinions. these serious injuries are no joke and these injuries don't end careers, they make the long life after a career harsh as well. If a bowler chooses to change his action to make it less stressful on his own body, then who are we to judge him or those helping him? Some may choose otherwise, but the bottom line is that it is not our choice.

I am a huge fan of the game- a fanatic- and I love winning just as much as anyone, but this is still just sport so let's not lose perspective. These are our brothers on the field, and I expect them to fight hard, to have determination, and to represent us in the best possible light to the world, but I do not expect them to sacrifice their health for a win! Their health is a far bigger priority than their bowling speed or the outcome of a match.

[Savak]

Originally Posted by shaun3 That is easy for us to say but we are not dealing with stress fractures to the back and other such serious injuries. nobody is considering the bowler's own opinions. these serious injuries are no joke and these injuries don't end careers, they make the long life after a career harsh as well. If a bowler chooses to change his action to make it less stressful on his own body, then who are we to judge him or those helping him? Some may choose otherwise, but the bottom line is that it is not our choice. I am a huge fan of the game- a fanatic- and I love winning just as much as anyone, but this is still just sport so let's not lose perspective. These are our brothers on the field, and I expect them to fight hard, to have determination, and to represent us in the best possible light to the world, but I do not expect them to sacrifice their health for a win! Their health is a far bigger priority than their bowling speed or the outcome of a match.

Point noted, i agree with this as well. But i think what Waqar meant in that interview with respect to this issue was that today's coaches are discouraging bowlers from bowling quick.

Now players themselves have goals in this game. I dont know whether someone who bowls at 90-95 mph with a injury prone action will accept a less to zero injury prone action which restricts him to 80-85 mph. There will be a mixed answer to this. In our part of the world everyone loves to emulate the idols of the past who were really quick at their peak.

To get a call up to the national side you have to be extraordinarily gifted and have to offer something unique in comparison to everyone else be it express pace, reverse swing or Mcgrath/Pollock type consistency. And it is everyone's dream to represent Pakistan and become a star and a huge hit with the public.

Most of the players whose actions have been tinkered with in our domestic cricket who at one stage were extremely promising and looked like getting a call up into the national side easily just withered away after action changes and were ineffective later on. Aqib Javed has been blamed for this and he has been a bowling coach in the NCA for a while.

If we ask them would they wish to return to their old slightly more injury prone actions if it helps them regain their effectiveness thus increasing their chances of getting a call up to the Pakistani team or if they wish to maintain the current status where most of the them play in domestic cricket for an eternity with less effectiveness then before thanks to changes in action thus reducing their chances for a call up to the national side.

Could be an interesting answer.

[kingusama92]

Originally Posted by shaun3 That is easy for us to say but we are not dealing with stress fractures to the back and other such serious injuries. nobody is considering the bowler's own opinions. these serious injuries are no joke and these injuries don't end careers, they make the long life after a career harsh as well. If a bowler chooses to change his action to make it less stressful on his own body, then who are we to judge him or those helping him? Some may choose otherwise, but the bottom line is that it is not our choice. I am a huge fan of the game- a fanatic- and I love winning just as much as anyone, but this is still just sport so let's not lose perspective. These are our brothers on the field, and I expect them to fight hard, to have determination, and to represent us in the best possible light to the world, but I do not expect them to sacrifice their health for a win! Their health is a far bigger priority than their bowling speed or the outcome of a match.

Sacrifice is the name of the game. Just look past cricket and look at other professions where life is put in danger all the time. Policemen, firefighters and various other professions.

I know comparing those serious professions with cricket is wrong, but even those people know that they are risking their lives when they take up those jobs. Just like cricketers know they are going to have every chance of getting injured during a game by playing. This is just a part of life and it doesn't mean we go changing bowling actions.

I feel there are many other changes that can be made without changing their actions. Such as making sure they are doing proper work in the gym. the only time the action should be changed is if there is no other way, it should really be a last resort thing and the bowler should realize that they won't be as good as they were with the older action. These types of things need to be correct at a very young age because once habits develop it's really hard to change actions for the good. Usually any change bring to the forefront negative results.

[Savak]

Bowling express 90mph plus is not normal, you are always stretching your body muscles and putting in extra every delivery. 9 individuals out of 10 with 90 mph abilities will face injuries but does that mean they live in fear and choose to be injury free at the expense of their skills and abilities to deliver for the team? Injuries are part and parcel of the game, some guys are built for resilience and some arent, with the amount of cricket being played these days especially on flat pitches, it is impossible for any express fast bowler to get through an entire year without getting injured at some stage.

[karachiite]

I have a friend who played cricket till junior county level. He used to open the bowling with Stuart Broad for the Leicestershire junior teams and is still good friends with him. He has also had a spell in the junior teams of Nottinghamshire. He was clocked bowling at around 84-85mph when he was 17. He has been coached by various people here including Devon Malcolm.

To add to that, his dad left him at the NCA in Lahore for a while where he was coached by Aaqib amongst others. In his words, Aaqib was the best coach he's ever had. When he mentioned this, I asked him jokingly whether Aqib tried changing his action and indeed he had.

My friend said that he used to be a mixture of front on and side on leaving him vulnerable to injuries. Aaqib tweaked his action slightly and also helped him develop an outswinger. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to settle at the NCA as he didn't speak the language and subsequently had to leave cricket due to various reasons.

I was one of the people who used to think that Aaqib was some action changing monster but listening to his effusive praise of Aaqib made me change my mind. Now reading hisinterview has further reinforced this.

[shaun3]

Originally Posted by kingusama92 Sacrifice is the name of the game. Just look past cricket and look at other professions where life is put in danger all the time. Policemen, firefighters and various other professions. I know comparing those serious professions with cricket is wrong, but even those people know that they are risking their lives when they take up those jobs. Just like cricketers know they are going to have every chance of getting injured during a game by playing. This is just a part of life and it doesn't mean we go changing bowling actions.

You can't compare civil institutions like crime-fighting or firefighting with social entertainment and sport. They seek different ends (justice/fairness vs entertainment). It's insensitive and laughable to say the dangers are comparable in scale or purpose.

To use this analogy though, this is like saying that crime-fighters should not wear bullet-proof vests because it will hamper their movement and so their crime-fighting prowess. Of course there is the small problem of getting shot, but this comes with the glory of the job...

Originally Posted by kingusama92 I feel there are many other changes that can be made without changing their actions. Such as making sure they are doing proper work in the gym. the only time the action should be changed is if there is no other way, it should really be a last resort thing and the bowler should realize that they won't be as good as they were with the older action. These types of things need to be correct at a very young age because once habits develop it's really hard to change actions for the good. Usually any change bring to the forefront negative results.

I whole-heartedly agree, an action change should be a last resort to avoiding injury. I never suggested that we should run amok overhauling the actions of all our players. I am just saying that when this last option is exercised, let us respect the bowler's choice to look after their own health and not blame evil NCA operatives for some conspiracy.

[shaun3]

Originally Posted by Savak Now players themselves have goals in this game. I dont know whether someone who bowls at 90-95 mph with a injury prone action will accept a less to zero injury prone action which restricts him to 80-85 mph. There will be a mixed answer to this. In our part of the world everyone loves to emulate the idols of the past who were really quick at their peak. Most of the players whose actions have been tinkered with in our domestic cricket who at one stage were extremely promising and looked like getting a call up into the national side easily just withered away after action changes and were ineffective later on. Aqib Javed has been blamed for this and he has been a bowling coach in the NCA for a while. If we ask them would they wish to return to their old slightly more injury prone actions if it helps them regain their effectiveness thus increasing their chances of getting a call up to the Pakistani team or if they wish to maintain the current status where most of the them play in domestic cricket for an eternity with less effectiveness then before thanks to changes in action thus reducing their chances for a call up to the national side. Could be an interesting answer.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe you are saying we don't know how any individual will answer, because each has unique circumstances and aspirations.

I think we are in agreement then that it is the player's choice, so long as he is as knowledgeable as possible of the consequences. We cannot make this choice for them.

A bowler that sticks with his action and battles injury in order to be the best is truly commendable, and is a hero any day in my books. However, I am simply saying that I do not expect this of all of them, and I do not begrudge them their choice if they choose to prioritize their health.

Remember, for every 1 prodigy that does break through there are thousands who have failed behind him. What of those bowlers who didn't change their action in order to be competitive, and still didn't make it anyway? They get a stress fracture in the back as a thank-you gift, and no central contract or medical assistance to speak of.

[Saj]

One thing of note is that Aaqib himself had a very nice action. His run up and approach were a little unorthodox but he had a very high arm and bowled a beautiful outswinger. Who will ever forget the 92 World Cup when he was bowling to the Aussies with 4 slips in place and bowling huge outswingers.

Aaqib has all the skills and experience to be working at the NCA and from the players who I have spoken to, he seems to be doing a good job and is well thought of.