OT: Are Asian Parents more pushy ?

[MIG]

We know the joke about what Asian parents wnat their kids to be when they grow up, one of :

1. Doctor
2. Accountant
3. Engineer

No other choice is permitted - art is a no no and so are any other types of careers ( nursing ? Dimgah to naheen kharab hai !!)

Anyway, do you think :

1. Above is an exageration
2. Are attitudes changing
3. Are Asian parents really pushy - always wanting their child to do well etc

I refer to the mensa thread as well.....

[Geordie Ahmed]

I think points 2 and 3 are valid! i think the 2nd Generation if asians will not be as pushy as the 1st was, well atleast thats how i would be!

[Sage]

Over here, it's foremost a doctor, then maybe an engineer. I've NEVER heard of a desi parent who wanted an accountant.

[MIG]

Well I know that if my son comes to me and tells me that he would like to do a degree in social sciences and become a rainbow warrior or something - I will do my utmost to persuade him not to - even, yes , even emotional blackmail !!!

My point is that Asian parents in general ( generalization alert !) want all the things they have or what they didnt have for their children and thats the reason for being pushy.

My mum-in-law tells me a story about my bro-in-law where his school teacher in UK didnt think that he was good enough for science subjects - she went to school and fought with the teachers etc - today the guy is one of the leading Cancer specialists in the UK ! so being pushy can be good.

On the other hand, as Umar would agree, it can kill creativity, zest for life etc and turn the kids into unfulfilled money earning robots !

[Schiller]

As I said earlier too, third world countries and people who are not in the upper strata can rarely afford the luxury of choice and freedom. You have to go to a field where there is money simply for the sake of survival.

However, too much of it, as ggm once mentioned, hurts the society in general and eventually the individual.
Its important to strike a balance if one can.

and in Pak, sage, Accountancy is certainly on the up

[MIG]

But you did see the article on the poor kid and mensa test by GA? Thats evil - I would never let my son do that .... kids need to be kids but Asian parents have a tendency to forget that .

Have to admit, a lot has to do with keeping up with the Joneses syndrome ...

[Schiller]

I just did and i think its vile and another example of the sutpidity and the syndrome you mentioned.

kids should be allowed to grow like kids
all would come in time

einstein, newton and a lot of others were absolute morons in school. so what does anything of this sort prove?

[MIG]

I had a friend with me in school, absolute genious with Calculus at 15 , while we were worrying about O'Levels, this chap used to sit in the break and design Airplane wings using differential equations etc..

Didnt do too well in school, then went to Cambridge as they recognized his talent - then I heard that he tried to commit suicide !! since he felt empty inside - had done everything and there was no need to live !!

[Schiller]

Not uncommon at all. guys like us (:-D )if we can survive normally is a big thing
ha

infact people with extremely high IQs or those that are above the norm have pathetic eqs they say and if they cant find their true calling and get to it truly end up badly. sadly parents most of all dont realise that .

moral is be a normal guy :-D

[MIG]

That would be me....

[Officer Barbrady]

Originally Posted by Schiller As I said earlier too, third world countries and people who are not in the upper strata can rarely afford the luxury of choice and freedom. You have to go to a field where there is money simply for the sake of survival.

True. In the west it is easier to do as you please. If you become a history teacher for example ...or some other 'arty' sort of thing you enjoy it is ok because you can expect a decent living. You won't be as rich as an investment banker but you can be comfortable.

In Pakistan, the history teacher is unlikely to get more than 7 or 8 K . Difficult to make ends meet.

Also, a number of professions are not considered 'respectable' enough in Pakistan something that seems to be part of our mentality.

[MIG]

Nursing is one such profession - they are considered like a cleaners in Pak society. In the UK/US its a respectable profession ( a lot of them marry rich doctors anyway !!)

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

mig - dcotors or any health professionals are not paid nearly enough!!!!

[sajjad]

it is changing...the views of parents in regards to what thier kids shud do...but as u guys mentioned...its all abt the money

Parents are too pushy IMO

[Schiller]

Asian parents can be considered control freaks. they probably think they own the child and dont generally view the child as an entity unto his own

this is a good topic and some excellent things are being said. although MIG, I would strongly disagree that those who take science subjects are not creative!!!!

But the point that a lot of brilliant people feel empty inside does have validity. referring to the guy you were talking about, the one who tried to commit suicide, may well have done so because of the pressure of going to such a great institute and maintaining good grades. that is another common occurence.

[MIG]

I dont know ATYS, my friend was one of those real airhead ( the intellectual ones ) types - when I talked to him, it was more the feeling of "done that , been there" type situation... but yes grades would be a pressure as well.

[sajjad]

parents want the best for ya...n try to suggest or push ya towards what they feel is best... some push a bit too much and that is usually sucks but in general its a good idea to listen n take advice n pray to god ur lucky enuf u dont get pushed to much...thank u god...mashAllah i got lucky! thank u mom n dad too..im getting emptional now.. maa tu kahan hai!

[Saqlain_doosra]

Parents want you to be all this and that. Altough my dad wouldn't mind at all if I was sportsman. I'm already training my younger brother

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

i see nothing wrong in learning at all

Originally Posted by MenInGreen I dont know ATYS, my friend was one of those real airhead ( the intellectual ones ) types - when I talked to him, it was more the feeling of "done that , been there" type situation... but yes grades would be a pressure as well.

I am going on a bit of a tangent here but I personally feel when people have that attitude of "been there done that" most of the time they are putting on a show. I've met these "intellectual types" and not to say theyre not brilliant but more often than not they get away with BS simply because it sounds right! or because we're so dumb we can't point out what is wrong with it!

[MIG]

You are obviously referring to me here ATYS :oD

[Schiller]

It takes a men of great intelligence or greatness to recognise another. everyone else merely finds a petty way to look at things

[KB]

It is intriguing that research has indicated that the vast majority of “suicide-bombers” had studied science or engineering type subjects. One idea advanced is that, compared to the aforementioned subject, arts and humanities alert an individual more to the “grey” that exists in the world and ensure that the student is moved further away from simplistic notions, values and understandings. Indeed any humanities field subject should endeavour to promote a passion for enquiry, in a spirit that is undogmatic and empathetic, of the incredible multiplicity of human experiences, values and actions.

The problem in Pakistan is that arts and humanities are often subject to poor teaching standards. In the case of history, it has become a tool to reinforce nationalistic parocial ends – a process that reached its zenith under the most stifling dictator Pakistan has had – Zia ul-Haq. In such situations simplistic solutions and analyses are promoted rather than challenged.

The inability to produce many top class historians has also led to the perpetuation of distorted or partial storytelling of Pakistan’s history.

Clearly Science, Maths etc. are invaluable and vital too. There is no denying that. But any nation needs a balance between individuals specialised and proficient in different areas. It is a dangerous route for a nation to ignore the value of arts and humanities. The value is often more subtle and requires an open and understanding mind – the very values that well taught arts and humanities subjects should promote.

[Schiller]

This also ties in with why muslim contributions and perhaps Pakistan's contributions to a lesser degree are not signified in the western world.

[Awesome Anjum]

Dont forget 'lawyer' mig

[PlanetPakistan]

Originally Posted by MIG We know the joke about what Asian parents wnat their kids to be when they grow up, one of : 1. Doctor 2. Accountant 3. Engineer No other choice is permitted - art is a no no and so are any other types of careers ( nursing ? Dimgah to naheen kharab hai !!) Anyway, do you think : 1. Above is an exageration 2. Are attitudes changing 3. Are Asian parents really pushy - always wanting their child to do well etc I refer to the mensa thread as well.....

After adopting choice 3 for a few months and flittering with number 1 i have finally decided to go with number 2....let's see how long it lasts

[kablooee87]

sheesh PP why do you always dig up these old threads.

btw, my father-->accountant . His older brother --> Civil Engineer. His Younger brother --> Accountant. His youngest brother -->Doctor.

His two sons.....training to be engineers. Talk about stereotype.

[PlanetPakistan]

Yea i was just visiting that page and i found this to an interesting issue!

My family
Father: Engineer
Elder brother: Engineer
Uncle: Doctor
Uncle( he was my mamoo who recently passed away): engineer
Uncle(Mamoo): Truck driver

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by ggm It is intriguing that research has indicated that the vast majority of “suicide-bombers” had studied science or engineering type subjects. One idea advanced is that, compared to the aforementioned subject, arts and humanities alert an individual more to the “grey” that exists in the world and ensure that the student is moved further away from simplistic notions, values and understandings. Indeed any humanities field subject should endeavour to promote a passion for enquiry, in a spirit that is undogmatic and empathetic, of the incredible multiplicity of human experiences, values and actions. The problem in Pakistan is that arts and humanities are often subject to poor teaching standards. In the case of history, it has become a tool to reinforce nationalistic parocial ends – a process that reached its zenith under the most stifling dictator Pakistan has had – Zia ul-Haq. In such situations simplistic solutions and analyses are promoted rather than challenged. The inability to produce many top class historians has also led to the perpetuation of distorted or partial storytelling of Pakistan’s history. Clearly Science, Maths etc. are invaluable and vital too. There is no denying that. But any nation needs a balance between individuals specialised and proficient in different areas. It is a dangerous route for a nation to ignore the value of arts and humanities. The value is often more subtle and requires an open and understanding mind – the very values that well taught arts and humanities subjects should promote.

Excellent post, no wonder it did not get any response. You have hit the nail on its proverbial head ggm. I think parents in the west are too soft on their children. My father never pushed me. I was lost for most of my life, never knew what I wanted to do. Then once I overheard him praising someone who had done good in a humanities subject. I nailed my attention on that field and am still working my way towards my final aim (PhD.) Humanities teach you that there are no black and white, 'yes no' answers. You are taught to doubt and think. We need to stop and think for a little while, thought is all we need.

On the subject of pushy parents. My parents never pushed me and I resent that. They should have guided me, shown me the way. I was intelligent, creative and thoughtful. Nobody tried to show me my strengths. I explained to my eldest last night what 'Gifted and Talented' means. He is on the G&T List alongwith other 5 kids from his school. Even teachers don't explain this as they don't want other (read thicker) kids to feel inferior or left out. This is pathetic. How long will we sacrifice the exceptional to protect the average. Kids are forced to be 'normal' in the West. Parents actually force kids not to study too much and push them into sports. This is a by-product of the f**cked up celebrity culture that the West adores. I would rather have an average doctor or teacher for a child than a drugged-up, arrogant footballer or super-model. Parents should look for their children's strengths and then help them cultivate and play to those strenghts. You cant' put in what nature left out but you must recognise and cultivate what nature put in. Now this takes effort and communication on parents part. Isn't it easier to look at Wayne Roonie, dream of your child playing for Manure and take him to the local footbal coaching school once or twice a week? Saves you from all those books and university expenses and the child doesn't even have to wear glasses and labelled a 'geek'!

[Wazeeri]

Joseph

I think the following quote from GGM is what you reffered to as excellent

zenith under the most stifling dictator Pakistan has had – Zia ul-Haq.

Good post btw GGM
The reason as most people have stated already for the pursuit of a narrow spectrum of professional fields is because Pakistan's economy is not so vibrant and only a few chosen professions are earning enough to not worry about their next meal, Medicine, Chartered Accountancy and select few fields of engineering are seen to be sure sources of income. That is why parents force their children into their direction.

An aunt of mine was trying to force her daughter into some subject about mobile phones because everyone she meets in the industry is earning really well. So the parents are clearly more concerned with their children's financial security rather than intellectual development when it comes to the issue of studying.

Arts and Humanities I believe are ignored more so because of lack of career options than the quality of teaching. I personally don't see much use at this precise time for these subjects as they offer no solution to Pakistan's woes. Maybe when we are developed enough to venture into the top status of science and intelect we would need a system which supports such a wide spectrum of knowledge. Right now I am really concerned with the lack of research opportunities in Pakistan. Without scientific research pakistan cannot progress and we will always be playing the catch up game,

Because of the parents concentration on finances rather than knowledge I think it is the governments responsibility to create incentives for people in the research field.

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by Wazeeri Joseph I think the following quote from GGM is what you reffered to as excellent Good post btw GGM The reason as most people have stated already for the pursuit of a narrow spectrum of professional fields is because Pakistan's economy is not so vibrant and only a few chosen professions are earning enough to not worry about their next meal, Medicine, Chartered Accountancy and select few fields of engineering are seen to be sure sources of income. That is why parents force their children into their direction. An aunt of mine was trying to force her daughter into some subject about mobile phones because everyone she meets in the industry is earning really well. So the parents are clearly more concerned with their children's financial security rather than intellectual development when it comes to the issue of studying. Arts and Humanities I believe are ignored more so because of lack of career options than the quality of teaching. I personally don't see much use at this precise time for these subjects as they offer no solution to Pakistan's woes. Maybe when we are developed enough to venture into the top status of science and intelect we would need a system which supports such a wide spectrum of knowledge. Right now I am really concerned with the lack of research opportunities in Pakistan. Without scientific research pakistan cannot progress and we will always be playing the catch up game, Because of the parents concentration on finances rather than knowledge I think it is the governments responsibility to create incentives for people in the research field.

No ggm's whole post is great. Only if we had a Post of the Week section. I'd nominate the post under-discussion. My hatred for the Dictator-i-Azam, the Murd-i-Momin, is well documented here. Nothing new on that front. By arts and humanities, we don't mean drawing and sculpture only. It also includes the greatest forms of human learning, ie. philosophy, literature, history even religion. We need these subjects more because ideas and thought teach correct use of science. An absence of thoughtfulness would only lead to more Next stores and the rising price of onions. A little thought would cultivate a curiosity to seek for more permanent solutions to our problems, then science can be brought to the service of this great intellect and pave the way to prosperity, social well-being and further intellectual and scientific curiosity.

[Wazeeri]

True, (bar the zia stuff)

[SameerM]

just thought i'd mention my cousin who was a straite A grade student.

Basically my cousin was invited to regional hockey trials. but his dad, a doctor, said concentrate on ur studies and forget about playing games.

To this day my cousin didnt study! he still got 4 gcse's (2 a's 2 b's) but nothing afterwards.

BUT because he wasnt allowed to follow his interests he rebelled and followed the wrong path..
As a youngster SPORT is the way out of life.. its a dream to be a sportsman..

Me as a dad want my kids to be sportsmen.. ANY sport as long as they good at it!

Again its down to the quality of life and what difficulties one faces when growing up

[Aurangzeb]

these desi uncles are just hypocrites...they talk about how the ummah needs more historians, journalists, economists, political scientists, criminologists etc...but when it comes time for their kids to go to university, they are given 3 options that i'm pretty sure we are well aware of...

i know when i have kids, i'll let them choose whatever they're interested in based on one condition....do whatever you want to do, but be the best at what you do...

[Oxy]

My son wants to be a Premiership footballer - the money is great!

[Hari Sombar]

Originally Posted by MIG We know the joke about what Asian parents wnat their kids to be when they grow up, one of : 1. Doctor 2. Accountant 3. Engineer No other choice is permitted - art is a no no and so are any other types of careers ( nursing ? Dimgah to naheen kharab hai !!) Anyway, do you think : 1. Above is an exageration 2. Are attitudes changing 3. Are Asian parents really pushy - always wanting their child to do well etc I refer to the mensa thread as well.....

Or a loyer

[Genghis]

Even though my parents never forced me into my profession, I know they would have been disapointed if I hadn't gone into the medicine or engineering field. Fortunately for me, Engineering was what I was good at and it was a pretty simple path to take.

I know when my son grows up, I will be more open to other career paths. I beleive if you study something you have been forced into, you will not enjoy it.

[Amir]

Its all about money and prestige. Liek the three you list are very respectable positions and earn you prestige. And they also make some good money (Doctors and Accountants moreso).

Say 10 years ago, becoming a doctor is where it was at (in terms of respect and money) and parents pushed kids to become doctors. Than lately, this new discovery (by them) that accountants make alot of money...so now they are pushing their kids into that. I noticed alot more desi people are getting into the accounting field (ala myself, but not for that reason. I enjoy finance/accounting). And when I talk to these alot...the first thing they start talking about is "money this and money that and that is where it is at!" They do not even mention anything in the field that will interest them.

So yeah, its all about money and prestige. My theory is whatever makes oyu happy, you can do (as long as it is within the law and Islamically correct). Like if my child wants to be a garbageman.....than God help me, but i will accept him and let him do so. I hope more people think like me in terms of this just because one disappointing thing I hate to see is someoen throwing their life away just to make their parents happy or get blackmailed for doing so (like when i see a friend of mine getting married to some girl he will always be unhappy with for the rest of his life).

[SlowRightArm]

It's a great differential. I think, as someone has noted, that the degree of income varies wildly once you get away from a select few careers. Certainly, those who live in places where a comfortable living can be generated from most professions can consider themselves fortunate.

In this environment, I feel very strongly that following the child's interests are most likely to yield a career or a future which is both happy and successful. I feel that forced routes would likely only achieve one. I also disagree with the quote that it's fine that they do what they want, so long as they are the best - suely this is unfair expectation?

The most important thing for me is that my child, should I have one, is happy. That's all that counts, whatever it is that they do. I am surprised and curious as to why this view is not so prevalent - why is this not enough for some of you?

[Daoud]

Well my dad always wanted me to go into Medicine and when he accepted that Im going into commerce he wanted me to go into Accountancy. They probably dont have the best idea what would make us happy (heck, Im not totally sure myself), but they do want us to have a comfortable life in a financial sense so I totally see where they're coming from (not saying I would do the same thing though)

[Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar]

it depends on what pushy means. if being pushy means thrusting a particular career path down a kid's throat, well then I disagree with that.

however, if being pushy is setting high standards and putting kids under pressure to meet them, I fully agree and I intend to do so with my kids (if I have any). if anything, Pakistani parents need to put more pressure on their kids wrt education and academic achievements - not less. the number of Pakistani families that value academics (be it science or art) is a very small percentage and it needs to grow substantially.

[SlowRightArm]

What about turning this onto that other main pillar of one's life - love? Certainly in the UK there is a preconception of arranged/forced marriages - what's your take on that?

[Joseph K.]

Originally Posted by Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar it depends on what pushy means. if being pushy means thrusting a particular career path down a kid's throat, well then I disagree with that. however, if being pushy is setting high standards and putting kids under pressure to meet them, I fully agree and I intend to do so with my kids (if I have any). if anything, Pakistani parents need to put more pressure on their kids wrt education and academic achievements - not less. the number of Pakistani families that value academics (be it science or art) is a very small percentage and it needs to grow substantially.

Excellent post MT. Yes high standards mean a lot, in any field. We must remind our kids that their destiny, their lives are in their own hands. They must make informed and right choices and contribute to the society they live in. Above all, whatever they do, they must not settle for a mediocre success. They have to be good at what they do and must do what they are good at.

[MIG]

Originally Posted by MIG Well I know that if my son comes to me and tells me that he would like to do a degree in social sciences and become a rainbow warrior or something - I will do my utmost to persuade him not to - even, yes , even emotional blackmail !!! My point is that Asian parents in general ( generalization alert !) want all the things they have or what they didnt have for their children and thats the reason for being pushy. My mum-in-law tells me a story about my bro-in-law where his school teacher in UK didnt think that he was good enough for science subjects - she went to school and fought with the teachers etc - today the guy is one of the leading Cancer specialists in the UK ! so being pushy can be good. On the other hand, as Umar would agree, it can kill creativity, zest for life etc and turn the kids into unfulfilled money earning robots !

just a repeat of what I said earlier

[Noman]

Originally Posted by Amir Its all about money and prestige. Liek the three you list are very respectable positions and earn you prestige. And they also make some good money (Doctors and Accountants moreso). Say 10 years ago, becoming a doctor is where it was at (in terms of respect and money) and parents pushed kids to become doctors. Than lately, this new discovery (by them) that accountants make alot of money...so now they are pushing their kids into that. I noticed alot more desi people are getting into the accounting field (ala myself, but not for that reason. I enjoy finance/accounting). And when I talk to these alot...the first thing they start talking about is "money this and money that and that is where it is at!" They do not even mention anything in the field that will interest them. So yeah, its all about money and prestige. My theory is whatever makes oyu happy, you can do (as long as it is within the law and Islamically correct). Like if my child wants to be a garbageman.....than God help me, but i will accept him and let him do so. I hope more people think like me in terms of this just because one disappointing thing I hate to see is someoen throwing their life away just to make their parents happy or get blackmailed for doing so (like when i see a friend of mine getting married to some girl he will always be unhappy with for the rest of his life).

Amir bhai you are spot on...