How Many Games Before a Batsman is Declared Rubbish

[fawad_wellwisher]

Two new faces have been included in the lineup. My question is if they fail will they be chucked out of the team right away or will Management and the selection committee will persist with them?

How many games must a player be given before he is declared crap for international cricket? Now that there are no more home series in Pakistan taking place, it has become more difficult for new players to become permanent members of the team. These players are used to the low bounce pitches of Pakistan and need to adjust quickly to the bouncy pitches of Australia and SA

What are the odd that Umar Amin and Asad Shafiq can score on the Dambulla pitch or even on the seaming conditions of England?

[Zaz]

It all varies It depends how he looks and plays

If he looks good has a great technique to play moving ball, scores 20s 30s hes got potential and should be stuck with over a number of series

However if his technique is rotten, he looks out of his depth then after a 2-3 series it shoud be enough

[Juggernaut]

How many games?

Don't you mean how many balls?

One was enough for Sarfraz Ahmed to be declared a 'crap' 'useless' 'loose' batsman.

So I give them a few deliveries before the knives are out.

I mean people still doubt Umar Akmals talent.

[saj001]

Okay we know fawad has been dropped ...stop making these threads..**** happens move on

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Zaz It all varies It depends how he looks and plays If he looks good has a great technique to play moving ball, scores 20s 30s hes got potential and should be stuck with over a number of series However if his technique is rotten, he looks out of his depth then after a 2-3 series it shoud be enough

But is it fair to judge a player's technique when facing a short ball in Australia against the likes of Tait and Johnson? I mean how is he supposed to play a ball he has never experienced in his life. In the past, batsmen could cement their position in the team by scoring tons on home soil. New batsmen don't have this previlege any longer. They have to adjust and adjust quickly as the Captain has other priorities in that he want to win the test series.

A good example is that of Fawad given only 1 test against NZ when he struggled against Bond. Was it the right decision or MoYo should have persisted with Fawad and allowed him adapt to the new conditions.

[*sallu*]

Originally Posted by fawad_wellwisher A good example is that of Fawad given only 1 test against NZ when he struggled against Bond. Was it the right decision or MoYo should have persisted with Fawad and allowed him adapt to the new conditions.

Yes I was shocked to see how so many people were willing to judge Alam so early after 1 test in Nzland.

[Juggernaut]

Originally Posted by fawad_wellwisher But is it fair to judge a player's technique when facing a short ball in Australia against the likes of Tait and Johnson? I mean how is he supposed to play a ball he has never experienced in his life. In the past, batsmen could cement their position in the team by scoring tons on home soil. New batsmen don't have this previlege any longer. They have to adjust and adjust quickly as the Captain has other priorities in that he want to win the test series. A good example is that of Fawad given only 1 test against NZ when he struggled against Bond. Was it the right decision or MoYo should have persisted with Fawad and allowed him adapt to the new conditions.

I agree that Fawad hasn't been given the chances he deserves.

But the part in bold is just ridiculous. Players in domestic cricket have never come up against short bowling, they've never practiced for it? Come on.

[selector]

depends on what team he is in,

If pakistan you can always bat, Salman butt, Imran farhat, hafeez, yasir hamid, shoaib malik, misbah, younus the all above named are all nothing but CRAP still they are the best weve got. always remember half of our score is scored by down order. and our bowlers have always made us proud.

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Juggernaut How many games? Don't you mean how many balls? One was enough for Sarfraz Ahmed to be declared a 'crap' 'useless' 'loose' batsman. So I give them a few deliveries before the knives are out. I mean people still doubt Umar Akmals talent.

Well Sarfaraz is not really a batsman.

What about confidence. A lot of game is mental. Chucking players out after 1 or 2 matches just destroys the confidence of a player from which some can never recover from.

We do see in other teams like India and Australia players being persisted with even though they struggle in the beginning but in Pakistan we have inconsistency in how much time a player has been given to cement his position in the Pakistan team. Guys like Faisal, Farhat and even Sami have been very lucky whereas Asim Kamal wasn't as lucky even though he had a decent technique.

[Boi]

Originally Posted by selector depends on what team he is in, If pakistan you can always bat, Salman butt, Imran farhat, hafeez, yasir hamid, shoaib malik, misbah, younus the all above named are all nothing but CRAP still they are the best weve got. always remember half of our score is scored by down order. and our bowlers have always made us proud.

So someone who averages 50+ in Test Match cricket, you consider 'CRAP'?
lol You should be made chief selector of the cricket team.

[Atif]

A full series ? if they continue to perform poorly throughout the series, then they can be regarded as useless

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Juggernaut I agree that Fawad hasn't been given the chances he deserves. But the part in bold is just ridiculous. Players in domestic cricket have never come up against short bowling, they've never practiced for it? Come on.

A short ball on a Faisalabad pitch compared to one on Perth would be like a Rickshaw racing against a Ferrari. There is a reason Quicks like Lillee struggled to take wickets on Pakistani wickets.

We have to give the younger batsmen time to adjust to the new conditions. One test simply isn't enough.

[Juggernaut]

Originally Posted by fawad_wellwisher A short ball on a Faisalabad pitch compared to one on Perth would be like a Rickshaw racing against a Ferrari. There is a reason Quicks like Lillee struggled to take wickets on Pakistani wickets. We have to give the younger batsmen time to adjust to the new conditions. One test simply isn't enough.

A short ball is a short ball.

Fawad got a good delivery from Bond. It was more a case of being done by an absolute peach than not being able to play the short ball. I agree that most Pakistan fans are unable to see the difference.

[UmarAkmals-fan]

How Many Games Before a Batsman is Declared Crap?

for australia 1 game
for south africa 2 games
for sri lanka 5 games
for india 8 games

and for pakistan 200 games :iamlegend

[Mohsin]

Ask Hafeez

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Juggernaut A short ball is a short ball. Fawad got a good delivery from Bond. It was more a case of being done by an absolute peach than not being able to play the short ball. I agree that most Pakistan fans are unable to see the difference.

Well if you think Bond could have bowled that peach of a delivery on a Faisalabad pitch then we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Afridi_Fan]

Another thread by a frustrated Fawad Fan. I can feel your pain. I really do.

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Afridi_Fan Another thread by a frustrated Fawad Fan. I can feel your pain. I really do.

And it's all Afridi's fault!

[Afridi_Fan]

Originally Posted by fawad_wellwisher And it's all Afridi's fault!

So is the 1st and 2nd World War. I strongly believe that. Join the club.

[haroon]

as long as u know Ijaz butt or someone from PCB and have seferish.. u will be in the team in Pakistan..

[AZ]

Trickier with bowlers, but for batsmen one can kind of judge quite quickly if he is any good or not.

[orthodox_spin]

I think 17 games like Fawad Alam to declare a batsman is enough

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Ahmed Zulfiqar Trickier with bowlers, but for batsmen one can kind of judge quite quickly if he is any good or not.

Yes but how long should one persist with a rookie especially considering he has to bat in conditions he is unfamiliar with as Pakistan no longer plays at home. Shouldn't he be given at least a couple of series at a stretch?

[uzermaani]

I think in case of Afridi................. even saat (7) janams would be less b4 he's declared as a lifetime c**p by the Afridi-maniacs!!!!!

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by orthodox_spin I think 17 games like Fawad Alam to declare a batsman is enough

To post on this forum a rudimentary knowledge of cricket is not required but strongly recommended.

Just so that you know,
he has an average of 41 in ODI.

[AZ]

Originally Posted by fawad_wellwisher Yes but how long should one persist with a rookie especially considering he has to bat in conditions he is unfamiliar with as Pakistan no longer plays at home. Shouldn't he be given at least a couple of series at a stretch?

Depends on how he performs under pressure, really...if the lad shows that he has backbone and is able to withstand the pressure of intl. cricket, then he should be given as many opportunities as possible.

[Amir]

There is no set number. Its intuitive. You look at certain players and you can just tell they are not cut out for it. As hard as Faisal Iqbal or Malik try....they just won't be able to play on wickets that give a bit of purchase to the bowlers.

[cric_crazy]

Originally Posted by orthodox_spin I think 17 games like Fawad Alam to declare a batsman is enough

how old r u buddy?

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Amir There is no set number. Its intuitive. You look at certain players and you can just tell they are not cut out for it. As hard as Faisal Iqbal or Malik try....they just won't be able to play on wickets that give a bit of purchase to the bowlers.

But our selectors seem to know how the batsman will fare even when he is sitting on the bench without being given a chance. a good example is that ammad Azzam. He wasn't given a single match and now has been completely dropped from the squad.
Does this even make any sense?

[kamranO]

hello fawad -wellwisher no games its just link work

how many connection the player have


unfortunately fawad dont have that good links

[Prince_Pathan]

to pakistan fans...jus one game...too many fickle people

[fawad_wellwisher]

I will be watching carefully how many chances the rookies who have been selected get. I wouldn't be surprised if they sit on the bench throughout the Asia cup and are then put on the reserve list like Hammad Azzam.

[RehanG]

you should give a player a run of 5 games before you can judge some one

[Cover Drive]

In my eyes its not the number of game but its matter of players ability. What I look is that whether the player has proper technique and footwork or not. If he has that then whether he gets golden duck on debut or century then I am supporting him. I firmly believe that technique is basic and everyone should have prior to making a debut. Its not one should learn as he is playing international cricket.

[adnan yasin]

whole series....if u see this guy has talent then keep him in the squad to groom him with the international players..

sending him back to domestic cricket won/t improve his batting or bowling both.. * as per our domestic structure*

[Amjid Javed]

Originally Posted by Cover Drive In my eyes its not the number of game but its matter of players ability. What I look is that whether the player has proper technique and footwork or not. If he has that then whether he gets golden duck on debut or century then I am supporting him. I firmly believe that technique is basic and everyone should have prior to making a debut. Its not one should learn as he is playing international cricket.

Excellent Post. Sadly most players we pick seem to be in situation where they have to try and improve both technically and mentally while in the team. We dont get many players who are compitent from the start!

[adnan yasin]

because we dont hve good domestic structure .. we chose players from pathetic department cricket..

we r lucky enough nation to get naturally gifted players.. our domestic system didnt give good players... * like said* well cooked players

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Cover Drive In my eyes its not the number of game but its matter of players ability. What I look is that whether the player has proper technique and footwork or not. If he has that then whether he gets golden duck on debut or century then I am supporting him. I firmly believe that technique is basic and everyone should have prior to making a debut. Its not one should learn as he is playing international cricket.

But this evaluation has to be done BEFORE a batsman is selected for International cricket. Why select him in the first place? Surely the selectors don't evaluate a batsman's technique AFTER he has been selected. But if a player has been selected must he not be given a few series? As in other professions, some people just take a little bit of time to adapt and cricket is no different. There are a number of players who struggled early but adapted.

My point is that no one in the Pakistan setup is telling these boys that look we have selected you have our backing. You will be given a fair shot at earning a spot in the team.

[LG]

Originally Posted by Cover Drive In my eyes its not the number of game but its matter of players ability. What I look is that whether the player has proper technique and footwork or not. If he has that then whether he gets golden duck on debut or century then I am supporting him. I firmly believe that technique is basic and everyone should have prior to making a debut. Its not one should learn as he is playing international cricket.

But, CD, many successful batsmen have played with unorthodox techniques and sometimes even with techniques that are considered "bad techniques". I agree with you on the first part, though.

[Cover Drive]

Originally Posted by Amjid Javed Excellent Post. Sadly most players we pick seem to be in situation where they have to try and improve both technically and mentally while in the team. We dont get many players who are compitent from the start!

JazakALLAH Khair...I would say that's mainly because of our poor coaching setup at lower level. Our youngsters should be taught around age of 15-17 so that when they go in U19 they can apply those basics. I believe of we have a good coaching setup which mainly consists of good batsman at lower level then we will see good batsman being produced.

Originally Posted by fawad_wellwisher But this evaluation has to be done BEFORE a batsman is selected for International cricket. Why select him in the first place? Surely the selectors don't evaluate a batsman's technique AFTER he has been selected. But if a player has been selected must he not be given a few series? As in other professions, some people just take a little bit of time to adapt and cricket is no different. There are a number of players who struggled early but adapted. My point is that no one in the Pakistan setup is telling these boys that look we have selected you have our backing. You will be given a fair shot at earning a spot in the team.

I would say it is selectors fault to select a player who has poor technique. It is simple if you are selected and then you realize at international level your technique is poor then you must go back an improve. Sadly seeing recent examples this is not happening much. A player with poor technique comes and after 6-8 months when he is reselected his technique is the same. It seems that in all those months he has learned nothig whatsoever.

Everyone struggles in early part of there career but that's not my point. As I said earlier technique something which a debutant should have no matter how many runs he has got under his belt

If you look Fawad Alam's and Simon Katich both have similar technique and both are identical but problem with Fawad (I think) is that he leans back or something like that. When Fawad made his debut he had this problem and if you see his last ODI or test same problem is there. In all that time it seems he never worked to improve it.

Originally Posted by LG But, CD, many successful batsmen have played with unorthodox techniques and sometimes even with techniques that are considered "bad techniques". I agree with you on the first part, though.

I agree with you but mate the chances of being successful with that sort of technique are very minimal when compared to a proper technique batsman.

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Cover Drive JazakALLAH Khair...I would say that's mainly because of our poor coaching setup at lower level. Our youngsters should be taught around age of 15-17 so that when they go in U19 they can apply those basics. I believe of we have a good coaching setup which mainly consists of good batsman at lower level then we will see good batsman being produced.

And that is something I am too not too clear on. In the past there were no academies in Pakistan yet previous players had better technique. With so many academies sprouting in major cities of Pakistan why are the player's technique not improving?

The main reason I guess is the introduction of shorter forms of cricket. You have to 'improvise' in order to score runs and that affects your technique. Fewer players are thinking longterm and make an effort to develop their game.

If you look Fawad Alam's and Simon Katich both have similar technique and both are identical but problem with Fawad (I think) is that he leans back or something like that. When Fawad made his debut he had this problem and if you see his last ODI or test same problem is there. In all that time it seems he never worked to improve it.

I would have to agree with you. He hasn't appeared to make any effort to improve his technique. What's more, I don't see any evidence that the coaches have asked Fawad to work on his technique although I could be wrong on this. Learning and changing is I guess just not part of our culture.

[Alam_dar]

While analyzing any batsman, we should look at him through two angles:

1. How good is his batting Technique.

2. If batting Technique is not good, then how Strong is he Mentally, and if he is able to make runs due to this mental Toughness.

One should come to any conclusion only and only after considering both these 2 facts.

Unfortunately, many of us go only and only for technique, which is wrong. Mental toughness is also equally important thing.

Looking at the results, that are provided by Fawad Alam, then he seems to be an Ideal Player for ODI format and Test format too. We may disagree about 20/20, but I have no doubts about ODIs and Test.

In ODIs, one more thing should also be considered and that is Running between the wickets.

Both Umar Akmal and Fawad Alam had started giving good partnerships in the ODIs. It is really bad to remove Fawad Alam from the ODI team.

[Cover Drive]

Originally Posted by fawad_wellwisher And that is something I am too not too clear on. In the past there were no academies in Pakistan yet previous players had better technique. With so many academies sprouting in major cities of Pakistan why are the player's technique not improving? The main reason I guess is the introduction of shorter forms of cricket. You have to 'improvise' in order to score runs and that affects your technique. Fewer players are thinking longterm and make an effort to develop their game.

To be honest, I have no clue whatsoever in regards the academy setup in Pakistan. It is upto the player as well. I remember listening to Saeed Anwar once where he said that in his first few games there were flaws in his game so what he did was he went back and worked on himself and overcame those flaws. He also added that nowdays it seem the playe is not looking or caring about this.

Off course it's T20 which ruins your game. Most of our young players are from really poor background so first thing they want to when playing cricket is money. So in my opinion what they do is they target T20 as it is easier to adapt T20 lifestyle. Adapting T20 lifestyle is much easier compare to a test match. In addition, they start to model themselves a T20 player rather than a test player because T20 generates alot more income than a Test match. So I this is one of the factors.

Originally Posted by fawad_wellwisher I would have to agree with you. He hasn't appeared to make any effort to improve his technique. What's more, I don't see any evidence that the coaches have asked Fawad to work on his technique although I could be wrong on this. Learning and changing is I guess just not part of our culture.

I agree with you that our coaches are not that good either. Lately I am not able to recall any player who was not a good player and then made a comeback after getting coaches advice. Perhaps coaches are not helping them out. If you look at Bob Woolmer then this guy brought changes. Two names that came to my mind right away are Mohammad Asif and Younus Khan. Both did not have great start and then they worked with coaches and improved there game. If we look at Younus Khan he is always grateful to Bob. So I think coaches née to take more responsibility.

[Lara400]

Does it matter whether they are declared rubbish?

Faisal, Malik (Test), Farhat (Test), Butt (Test) have pathetic test records probably about 100 tests between the lot if not more and I reckon less than 10 test centuries.

Averaging a whopping late 20's at the last count in a batting dominated era.

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Alam_dar Both Umar Akmal and Fawad Alam had started giving good partnerships in the ODIs. It is really bad to remove Fawad Alam from the ODI team.

That's right. And the selectors have totally disregarded this important point. In an age where key performance indicators are used to measure performance by major corporate institutions, the PCB is still stuck in the 19th century mentality to select players.

[sakss]

16-20 Odis and 7-10test matches.....if someone cant produce a good innings in this amount of matches then you have to say bye bye to him


i guess for pakistan the qualification is 50+ matches..i.e imran nazir, hafeez

[DOOSRA95]

Ramiz Raja's Test career....thats how long.