How can anyone prove the authenticity of the Quran and Ahadith to someone?

[siccric]

How can anyone prove the authenticity of the Quran and Ahadith to someone who hasn't been brought up to believe that they are the authentic word of God and Muhammad respectively?



I mean, it's easy to just believe it because you have that gut feeling, and it always helps that you've been brought up by Muslims. We might have inherited a mindset, but why would an outsider believe that God has really said the words of the Quran?

[FastBowler]

why?
are you a preacher?

[siccric]

Originally Posted by FastBowler why? are you a preacher?

No, I just want a better reason than "Allah said he'd protect the Quran in the Quran" or "My parents said it's authentic"

[Cracket]

You can't. For the same reasons Bible preachers can't to non-Christian folks.

[FastBowler]

Originally Posted by siccric No, I just want a better reason than "Allah said he'd protect the Quran in the Quran" or "My parents said it's authentic"

well the records of whats said stay consistent throughout the years

[Dhirajmes]

Originally Posted by siccric How can anyone prove the authenticity of the Quran and Ahadith to someone who hasn't been brought up to believe that they are the authentic word of God and Muhammad respectively? I mean, it's easy to just believe it because you have that gut feeling, and it always helps that you've been brought up by Muslims. We might have inherited a mindset, but why would an outsider believe that God has really said the words of the Quran?

In the good old days, it used to be either the Qur'an or the sword.

Pretty convincing "proof" that used to be; it's the reason why
the majority of the world's Muslims today are what they are.
The same with Christianity -- an imperial and conquering cult.

Today, Islamic preachers follow a few different approaches:

(a) Islam is the biggest+fastest growing religion; it must be true
(b) Nobody has ever produced a verse to rival one of the Qur'an
(c) It is faith -- we believe it and there's no need to justify it to
you -- but you can join our club if you want to. Revert to Islam.

Point (a) is attributable to historical military conquests as
well as the high birth rates among Muslim women today.

Point (b) is rather stupid and juvenile -- just meaningless.
Of course anyone with a good knowledge of, and fluency
in, Classical Arabic, can "produce a verse" as in the Qur'an.

Point (c) is an honest point, and respectable. Today, if you
are trying to give Da'wah to Christians or Hindus or whoever,
it seems to be the best way to go to "convince" people of it.

[FastBowler]

Originally Posted by Dhirajmes In the good old days, it used to be either the Qur'an or the sword. Pretty convincing "proof" that used to be; it's the reason why the majority of the world's Muslims today are what they are. The same with Christianity -- an imperial and conquering cult. Today, Islamic preachers follow a few different approaches: (a) Islam is the biggest+fastest growing religion; it must be true (b) Nobody has ever produced a verse to rival one of the Qur'an (c) It is faith -- we believe it and there's no need to justify it to you -- but you can join our club if you want to. Revert to Islam. Point (a) is attributable to historical military conquests as well as the high birth rates among Muslim women today. Point (b) is rather stupid and juvenile -- just meaningless. Of course anyone with a good knowledge of, and fluency in, Classical Arabic, can "produce a verse" as in the Qur'an. Point (c) is an honest point, and respectable. Today, if you are trying to give Da'wah to Christians or Hindus or whoever, it seems to be the best way to go to "convince" people of it.

Look we know you're an atheist or whatever but can you shut up about this now?

[Jadz]

You do not need to "prove" anything to anyone. Al-Qur'an is the Word of Allah SWT, it remains free from all corruptions and alterations. The very most and the very least you can do is to convey the Message of Allah SWT as beautifully as you can - and leave the rest to HIM, HE is Al-Hadi and Ar-Rashid. A point to note, Allah SWT only guides those people who HE Knows are receptive - those who are not HE leaves to their own devices, but to HIM is all our return.

Secondly, ensure that you make a differentiation between the Word of Allah SWT - Al-Qur'an - and words of mortal men and women - Al-Hadeeth. They are not equal and ought never to be presented as such. It creates enormous confusion in the minds of non-Muslims when they are given this huge mass of literature purportedly representing Al-Islam. Al-Islam is simple and so keep it simple - so please do not confuse Kalaam-Allah with Al-Hadeeth.

Finally, remember that the Message from Allah SWT can only be grasped, absorbed and comprehended by people who accept and believe in the notion/concept of Al-Ghayb, ie., that which is beyond human perception. Those who reject this concept or are incapable of understanding that Realms beyond the Seen exist will never believe in Al-Qur'an - or any of Allah SWT's Revelations and Signs, except as HE Wills.

Allahu 'Alam.

[s2k]

Its faith........no one can prove god exists...

[bantu]

You cant.........

[chacha kashmiri]

ask them to come up with something similar to a verse in the quran

[dhump]

My friend ask them how can a man 1500 years ago can write all about how human are made inside a women (by him self without the help of one who created this all) when medical science proofs it hundreds of year later.

This is one of the miracle of Quran.

[Striver]

SIMPLE VERY SIMPLE......... 1400 years PASS ON.......

Quran REMAINS UNCHANGED - ONLY ONE QURAN
MILLIONS OF MEMORIZERS OF QURAN from children to elderly people, from oriental to south asian to african to english to american to latino you name it....

i personally know this trinidadian older gentleman who's been living in Canada for almost 40 years now, his wife is hindu and sons went on to marry catholic women......... yet when he read the translation of the Quran he said i believed right away that this book is for the whole world and is from Allah

[Paradox]

You cannot prove God exists, neither can you prove if the Quran exists, or the Bible, or any other book of religion. It's as simple as that.

[sa_09]

Originally Posted by Dhirajmes In the good old days, it used to be either the Qur'an or the sword. Pretty convincing "proof" that used to be; it's the reason why the majority of the world's Muslims today are what they are. The same with Christianity -- an imperial and conquering cult. Today, Islamic preachers follow a few different approaches: (a) Islam is the biggest+fastest growing religion; it must be true (b) Nobody has ever produced a verse to rival one of the Qur'an (c) It is faith -- we believe it and there's no need to justify it to you -- but you can join our club if you want to. Revert to Islam. Point (a) is attributable to historical military conquests as well as the high birth rates among Muslim women today. Point (b) is rather stupid and juvenile -- just meaningless. Of course anyone with a good knowledge of, and fluency in, Classical Arabic, can "produce a verse" as in the Qur'an. Point (c) is an honest point, and respectable. Today, if you are trying to give Da'wah to Christians or Hindus or whoever, it seems to be the best way to go to "convince" people of it.

Your comments on Point (B) are false, 1500 years ago Arabs who lived at that era were best in their Arabic language literature and Allah SWT challenged them to produce a single verse but they could not. This thing can only be understood by languagers not by ordinary people. This miracle of Quran is forever no body at that period and afterwards could or can produce a single verse similar to Quran.

[Desire]

no one can prove quran and islamic way is truth nor can prove it is false in any court of law. Thats where you have to "Believe" in prophet(pbuh). "Trust" him as whatever he is saying is absolute truth. How that believe will come?? after knowing about the character of prophet(pbuh) read about seerat e tayyaba as much as you can. Life is based on thought and falsafa of past human beings. Everything we do is copy paste from past. Its your choice , do you trust people's experiences from past to lead your life or do you trust prophet(pbuh) and Islam to be the leader of your life.

[1137moiz]

not just blind faith either, but look at Allah's numerous signs. fact is NOTHING has come close to this beautiful religion and book we have been blessed with

[161]

It's true because it says its true.

And if you don't believe then you will burn in hell for eternity.

Do you really want to burn in hell for eternity ?!?!?!

[Momo]

Originally Posted by kashif77 It's true because it says its true. And if you don't believe then you will burn in hell for eternity. Do you really want to burn in hell for eternity ?!?!?!

Could you give me one instance in the Qur'an where it says 'believe' or you will burn in hell for eternity?

[zimmz]

I wish all threads with kashif77 post were marked with some thing like 'Idiot Alert'...

[161]

Originally Posted by Momo Could you give me one instance in the Qur'an where it says 'believe' or you will burn in hell for eternity?

If any of these translated versus are inaccurate please let me know.

Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. 4:56 Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! 18:29 If those who disbelieved but knew the time when they will not be able to drive off the fire from their faces and from their backs, and they will not be helped! 21:29 But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. 22:19-22 It will be a hard day for disbelievers. On the day when the wrong-doer gnaweth his hands, he will say: Ah, would that I had chosen a way together with the messenger (of Allah)! 25:26-27 But as for those who disbelieve, for them is fire of hell; it taketh not complete effect upon them so that they can die, nor is its torment lightened for them. Thus We punish every ingrate. And they cry for help there, (saying): Our Lord! Release us; we will do right, not (the wrong) that we used to do. ... Now taste (the flavour of your deeds), for evil-doers have no helper. 35:36-37 Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, When carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire. 40:70-72

[Oxy]

Originally Posted by Paradox neither can you prove if the Quran exists

Yes you can. I have 1 copy in my house. Believe me, it exists.

You dont have to believe a word of it.

But it exists.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by siccric How can anyone prove the authenticity of the Quran and Ahadith to someone who hasn't been brought up to believe that they are the authentic word of God and Muhammad respectively?

You can't.

why would an outsider believe that God has really said the words of the Quran?

If s/he wants to. No other reason.

[Momo]

Originally Posted by kashif77 If any of these translated versus are inaccurate please let me know.

Yes they are all quite inaccurate, one or two being more inaccurate than the rest. Especially to those who come across them for the first time, they can be fairly misleading and would most probably sound illogical too.

Details tomorrow, inshaAllah.

[161]

Originally Posted by Momo Yes they are all quite inaccurate, one or two being more inaccurate than the rest. Especially to those who come across them for the first time, they can be fairly misleading and would most probably sound illogical too. Details tomorrow, inshaAllah.

Hmmn .. that's interesting .. will wait for your explanation tomorrow.

[Black Zero]

Search "Quran Code" in google.
Thats pretty convincing.

Regarding Hadith, one can use usual tools that historians use to validate the authenticity of any historical events. Every Hadith is treated independently.

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Search "Quran Code" in google. Thats pretty convincing.

If you mean the 19 code, then it is 'problematic' to say the least.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Momo If you mean the 19 code, then it is 'problematic' to say the least.

??

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Anwaar ??

Rashad Khalifa, who came up with that 'code', was a fraud and in addition to other attempted deceptions he tried to conform the Qur'an to his 'code', making statements like this or that verse doesn't belong to the Qur'an etc.

His code-19, along with himself, was a fail!

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Momo Rashad Khalifa, who came up with that 'code', was a fraud and in addition to other attempted deceptions he tried to conform the Qur'an to his 'code', making statements like this or that verse doesn't belong to the Qur'an etc. His code-19, along with himself, was a fail!

Re: Fraud.

I do not think so.

074.030
YUSUFALI: Over it are Nineteen.
PICKTHAL: Above it are nineteen.
SHAKIR: Over it are nineteen.

074.031
YUSUFALI: And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.
PICKTHAL: We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the Scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.
SHAKIR: And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.


As you are aware of this code, I wont copy paste the compliance of Number 19 to Quran.


http://submission.org/quran/app1.html

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Momo Rashad Khalifa, who came up with that 'code', was a fraud and in addition to other attempted deceptions he tried to conform the Qur'an to his 'code', making statements like this or that verse doesn't belong to the Qur'an etc. His code-19, along with himself, was a fail!

RE: That Khalifa forced the Code.

If you talking about two ayahs, then that claim is backed by Hadiths/Rawats/History.

Again as you are aware of the issue, I wont copy paste content instead will give the link: > http://www.submission.org/quran/app24.html

[siccric]

Originally Posted by Jadz You do not need to "prove" anything to anyone. Al-Qur'an is the Word of Allah SWT, it remains free from all corruptions and alterations.

Maybe prove wasn't the right word. HOW do you know that it remains free from all corruptions and alterations? Do you have a strong enough faith for you to just believe that? Several 'fake' copies of the Quran were burned during the early days of Islam by Usman

Originally Posted by kashif77 It's true because it says its true. And if you don't believe then you will burn in hell for eternity. Do you really want to burn in hell for eternity ?!?!?!

Obviously not, but I don't believe questioning religion earns you a place in hell, even if you think it says that in the Quran. It's all about interpretation anyway, and to each their own






And to those who say it cannot be proven, how do you personally believe that it is authentic? (assuming that you do, of course)

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Re: Fraud. I do not think so. 074.030 YUSUFALI: Over it are Nineteen. PICKTHAL: Above it are nineteen. SHAKIR: Over it are nineteen. 074.031 YUSUFALI: And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind. PICKTHAL: We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the Scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals. SHAKIR: And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals. As you are aware of this code, I wont copy paste the compliance of Number 19 to Quran. http://submission.org/quran/app1.html

How does the mere mention of the number 19 in the Qur'an prove he was not a fraud?

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Anwaar RE: That Khalifa forced the Code. If you talking about two ayahs, then that claim is backed by Hadiths/Rawats/History. Again as you are aware of the issue, I wont copy paste content instead will give the link: > http://www.submission.org/quran/app24.html

But that claim clashes with the Qur'an itself. So too all the rawayaat that suggest similar things. In other words, in order to make his theory make sense, he had to resort to a claim that went against a very fundamental claim of the Qur'an itself.

[salman24]

Originally Posted by siccric How can anyone prove the authenticity of the Quran and Ahadith to someone who hasn't been brought up to believe that they are the authentic word of God and Muhammad respectively? I mean, it's easy to just believe it because you have that gut feeling, and it always helps that you've been brought up by Muslims. We might have inherited a mindset, but why would an outsider believe that God has really said the words of the Quran?

Watch Dr. Zakir Naik's talks and debates or even Ahmed Deedat and you'll get a most of the answers you are looking for.

They talk about a lot of things including Science, logic, human nature etc. Check it out on Youtube.

Watch Science and the Quran or Is the Quran God's Word etc

[Amir]

The one thing I think what differs the Quran from the Bible and Hebrew tablets is that God has allowed Muslims to memorize and recite the Quran. One of the Prophet's duties SAW was not only to teach the Quran, but recite it as well (hence why we get sawaab for doing so).

So while, books can be copied down from a press and they could be incorrect, but we have thousands of people on this planet that know the words and are taught by someone prior to correct their mishaps. Hence, it continues to get passed down and if there was any printing error, I am sure one of the many hafizs would catch it.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Momo How does the mere mention of the number 19 in the Qur'an prove he was not a fraud?

First it was your claim (without proving) that he was fraud.
Second, his theory is based upon number 19 thats mentioned in Quran. (and not in the Thin Air)

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Momo But that claim clashes with the Qur'an itself. So too all the rawayaat that suggest similar things. In other words, in order to make his theory make sense, he had to resort to a claim that went against a very fundamental claim of the Qur'an itself.

As I studied cryptography and data corrections codes during post graduate Engineering, I do understand that if you "transmit" a message along with code and during transmission if errors arise then at receiving end with the help of code one can ensure the integrity of the message. Hence I do not see any conflict with Quran's original claim.

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Anwaar First it was your claim (without proving) that he was fraud.

Well he claimed he was a messenger of Allah based on some stupid arithmetic (again based on his stupid theory). How's that for proof for his being a fraudia?

Originally Posted by Anwaar Second, his theory is based upon number 19 thats mentioned in Quran. (and not in the Thin Air)

Well there are many other numbers mentioned in the Qur'an. Theories based on all those numbers can be said to be based on the Qur'an? I don't think so.

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Anwaar As I studied cryptography and data corrections codes during post graduate Engineering, I do understand that if you "transmit" a message along with code and during transmission if errors arise then at receiving end with the help of code one can ensure the integrity of the message. Hence I do not see any conflict with Quran's original claim.

I am not saying the idea of a code per se is necessarily wrong. What I am saying is, if in order for a code to make sense one has to resort to claiming that some verses which are in the Qur'an (which has reached us through continuity and agreement of the whole ummah) are actually not part of the Qur'an, or vice versa, that will mean that Allah's last message has been corrupted, which is contrary to the Qur'an's own claim.

I don't see how you can state that there is no conflict there.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Momo I am not saying the idea of a code per se is necessarily wrong. What I am saying is, if in order for a code to make sense one has to resort to claiming that some verses which are in the Qur'an (which has reached us through continuity and agreement of the whole ummah) are actually not part of the Qur'an, or vice versa, that will mean that Allah's last message has been corrupted, which is contrary to the Qur'an's own claim. I don't see how you can state that there is no conflict there.

I imagine that claim is about "securing the integrity" of Quran. Code does this purpose. And Error correction codes are used in almost all modern communications including net.
If Quran is for all ages then I feel the necessity of such codes.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Momo ? Well there are many other numbers mentioned in the Qur'an. Theories based on all those numbers can be said to be based on the Qur'an? I don't think so.

Please quote me an ayah brief, specific and direct like "Over it are Nineteen.".

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Please quote me an ayah brief, specific and direct like "Over it are Nineteen.".

I don't know what you mean by specific and direct.

And I note that you gave Rashad's false claim for being a messenger of Allah a complete pass. :akmal

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Anwaar I imagine that claim is about "securing the integrity" of Quran. Code does this purpose. And Error correction codes are used in almost all modern communications including net. If Quran is for all ages then I feel the necessity of such codes.

I am forced to repeat myself but, even if codes are necessary (which is debatable) the code-19 is not satisfactory, as it conflicts with a basic Qur'anic claim (that it will not get corrupted).

[sa88]

Originally Posted by sa_09 Your comments on Point (B) are false, 1500 years ago Arabs who lived at that era were best in their Arabic language literature and Allah SWT challenged them to produce a single verse but they could not. This thing can only be understood by languagers not by ordinary people. This miracle of Quran is forever no body at that period and afterwards could or can produce a single verse similar to Quran.

LOL, I guess that rules you out.

I think it comes down to a matter of personal faith. If someone wants to believe, they will believe. If they do not want to believe, they will not believe. There is no forcing the matter. The best you can do is present the arguments which make sense to you, listen to the arguments of the person you are interacting with and allow the other person to make up their own mind about the matter. As has been said, there is no compulsion in religion, so no need to force it on someone.

That being said, some of the 'scientific proofs' arguments are very tedious. A few vague and metaphoric descriptions does not equate to scientific knowledge. If it did, then the Saudi Arabian universities would not have to import Western professors to teach their students. That function could easily be performed by the cohorts of Saudi alims. But alas, the Kingdom spends billions of petrodollars every year to teach their youth stuff they should be able to learn by themselves.

Further to this point, a poster mentioned that the mention of the process of utero is proof of the divinity of the Quran.

That is a very poor argument to make since the works of Hippocrates provide a much more detailed description of utero. Since Hippocrates described Utero 2500 years ago, surely he must also have recieved divine inspiration.

[zimmz]

Originally Posted by Anwaar I imagine that claim is about "securing the integrity" of Quran. Code does this purpose. And Error correction codes are used in almost all modern communications including net. If Quran is for all ages then I feel the necessity of such codes.

-- If codes were required to secure the integrity, then why would Quran itself claims to be complete, accurate and correct? Why the need for such claim since codes can do this verification (and actually dismissing two verses)?

-- Why only modern ages need such codes? How did the earlier ages (read before 1968, the time of 19 code) verified the authenticity of Quran?


Seriously I would first verify the integrity, claims, and beliefs of the creator of 'Code 19' before believing the theory itself. Do you believe Quran without sunnah (of Muhammad pbuh) is enough for 'submitters'?

[Typical Stroke]

You cant

[Jadz]

In order to better understand Al-Qur'an one needs to comprehend the purpose of Revelations as such. Also, we might bear in mind that Al-Qur'an confirms, corrects, completes and concludes the Earlier Revelations, there is context here - it did not simply drop from outer space upon the Arabian peoples. In other words, Al-Qur'an represents continuity of Communications from The Creator.

Regarding alterations and corruptions - Surah 4 An-Nisaa, Verse 82
Will they not, then, try to understand this Qur'an? Had it issued from any but Allah, they would surely have found in it many an inner contradiction!

One who believes in Allah SWT finds sufficient proofs within and outside of themselves - Surah 41 Al-Fussilat, Verse 53
In time WE shall make them fully understand Our Messages (through what they percieve) in the utmost horizons (of the universe) and within themselves, so that it will become clear to them that this (revelation) is indeed the truth. (Still) is it not enough (for them to know) that your Sustainer is Witness to everything?

If you are in doubt concerning Al-Qur'an, then ask Allah SWT - Surah 25 Al-Furqaan, Verse 59
HE Who has created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six aeons, and is established on the Throne of HIS Almightiness: The Most Gracious! Ask, then, about HIM, (the) One Who is (truly) Aware.

Allahu 'Alam

[PlanetPakistan]

@ Sic,

You should probably research the scientific issues discussed in Quran (like the rotation of sun and earth) and go from there...

[Typical Stroke]

visit www.faithfreedom.org for best information

[aashiqmizaaj]

Originally Posted by Typical Stroke visit www.faithfreedom.org for best information

Who labelled that site the best? You? Or some neutral authority?

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by zimmz -- If codes were required to secure the integrity, then why would Quran itself claims to be complete, accurate and correct? Why the need for such claim since codes can do this verification (and actually dismissing two verses)? -- Why only modern ages need such codes? How did the earlier ages (read before 1968, the time of 19 code) verified the authenticity of Quran? Seriously I would first verify the integrity, claims, and beliefs of the creator of 'Code 19' before believing the theory itself. Do you believe Quran without sunnah (of Muhammad pbuh) is enough for 'submitters'?

Here again:

074.030
YUSUFALI: Over it are Nineteen.
PICKTHAL: Above it are nineteen.
SHAKIR: Over it are nineteen.

074.031
YUSUFALI: And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.
PICKTHAL: We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the Scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.
SHAKIR: And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.


Check yourself

http://submission.org/quran/app1.html

Thats the beauty that code itself is part of Quran.

Securing the Quran is God's claim (not human's) and it was as true before 1968 as it is now.
If you talk about how people used to "explain" that claim prior 1968, then you can have sample on this very thread.

[Black Zero]

Originally Posted by Momo I am forced to repeat myself but, even if codes are necessary (which is debatable) the code-19 is not satisfactory, as it conflicts with a basic Qur'anic claim (that it will not get corrupted).

First of all securing doesn't equal of "being unable to get corrupted", instead equal to "get the original message"

As I said before, if original message can be extracted then it's not corrupted technically. (This is the life line of all digital communication, even if you transmit a snap of a page from quran, during transmission there would be so many bit errors would occur (as per your thinking, message got corrupted) but error correction codes would correct those bit errors before producing that picture at receiving end correctly.

If you lose the original message then there would be conflict (which is not the case here).
I mentioned this before but look like this too complex an idea to grasp.

[Kean0]

I appreciate the aim of this thread. Ive always wondered how to pass on to others for what i feel for Islam.

Of couse as a muslim i have no doubt in the Quran being the world of Allah.

How do i convery this to a non believer?

The best way i have found is the scientific approach. Most of you will know the Quran has scientific teachings which scientists have only recently discovered and are still discovering.

This book contains knowledge which no human could have fathomed a few years ago, nevermind back when the Quran was brought to us.

If someone can not see this as proof of this book being the word of Allah then they are denying thier belief in simple physics and chemistry.

[RexRex]

Originally Posted by Kean0 The best way i have found is the scientific approach. Most of you will know the Quran has scientific teachings which scientists have only recently discovered and are still discovering. .

Like what ?

[Blistering Barnacle]

Originally Posted by kashif77 It's true because it says its true. And if you don't believe then you will burn in hell for eternity. Do you really want to burn in hell for eternity ?!?!?!

This is one of the most off-putting things about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by RexRex Like what ?

i have read about some of these 'teachings' and 'scinetific discoveries' and with all due respect to true believers, it seems to be like making things fit into obscure verses to prove a point, kind of like people fit Nostradamus prophecies to everything and anything

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by siccric How can anyone prove the authenticity of the Quran and Ahadith to someone who hasn't been brought up to believe that they are the authentic word of God and Muhammad respectively? I mean, it's easy to just believe it because you have that gut feeling, and it always helps that you've been brought up by Muslims. We might have inherited a mindset, but why would an outsider believe that God has really said the words of the Quran?

To even make that attempt, I would argue one has to improve his or her own understanding of the manuscripts under discussion first.

Surely if such a 'proof' existed, it would have been uncovered by now by the so called ' religious experts.'

Even the prophets failed to convince their contemporaries to follow God's System which leads me to believe no such definite proof exists and that it is by design. God I think wants every individual to understand and reflect on his or her own and exercise their own free will to get to the truth.

The sheer complexity of life ensures no two humans can have identical belief systems and that is where the difficulty lies. Moreover, the majority relies on their 'false Gods' for information which for the most part is lies packaged as 'the true word of God.' Masters of deception understand these human frailties and take full advantage of it to ensure the human cannot get to the truth, which is what one's purpose in life must be in the first place.

However, we may reach a point some time in the future in that the human race some day shares a common core set of beliefs.

Truth may then hopefully set a lot of us free!

[PlanetPakistan]

Indiafan,

The biggest problem is that you will very rarely find a neutral person(on either side) in a religious debate.

[Indiafan]

Originally Posted by PlanetPakistan Indiafan, The biggest problem is that you will very rarely find a neutral person(on either side) in a religious debate.

Yep agree. Actually thats true about all things in life. Human beings have a tendency of having strong pre-concieved opinions and twisting facts to fit their opion about everything, unless ones a child

[Xohaib]

No verse in Quran pak can be proved wrong while take any other book and zakir naik found like hundred mistakes.

[zimmz]

Originally Posted by Anwaar Here again: ... Check yourself http://submission.org/quran/app1.html

You haven't answer the questions I raised. These verses are not the proof for the existence of 'code' you attributed to the beauty of Quran. Linking to the site of submitters won't back your views either. I can provide several links against the theory and its creator.

Originally Posted by Anwaar Thats the beauty that code itself is part of Quran.

How do you know it's a code? Any proof? Since you so like to bring in digital communications in this discussion, tell me how a receiver will find out which code or 'error detection/correction scheme' to use at first place? Surely the sender and receiver sides are aware of mechanism before they communicate? or do you think the receiver will randomly experiment with different numbers within the received message and will come up with code which some how fit by removing part of the messages (the removal of two verses as the case in hand)?

The code 19 is nothing but merely playing with numbers, a desperate try to find out some magic number even if some verses have to be removed in order to fit the code with subset of calculations. Just like the following number games tell us that Germany is assured winner of 2010 Football World Cup:

http://www.physorg.com/news191062132.html
http://hubpages.com/hub/Who-will-win...World-Cup-2010

Originally Posted by Anwaar Securing the Quran is God's claim (not human's) and it was as true before 1968 as it is now. If you talk about how people used to "explain" that claim prior 1968, then you can have sample on this very thread.

Again this doesn't answer my question. The message is communicated to a Prophet by angels from God. How did the Prophet make sure that angels didn't alter the message? Why code 19 was not effective at that time? Lets move further down the line. The message was then forwarded to people from Prophet...on to many generations. How did any of intermediate receiver make sure that the original message is intact? Do you think only us modern human need such codes to be sure of the integrity of the message? In other words every thing in the past has to meet the standards of present in order to be acceptable?

Think about it, in future some one can come up with another method or code that can fit in just by removing couple more verses, effectively invalidating the code 19 theory. Where will it end?

[dinakar]

the advantage of religious texts - be it quran, bible or veda - is there interpretation is quite flexible and can change according to invidual's taste! the "religious scholars" job is pretty easy, whenever a new scientific discovery happens, just quote a verses from these texts and tell that it means exactly the same and they will always find many who mug it up blindly.

[dinakar]

Originally Posted by Xohaib No verse in Quran pak can be proved wrong while take any other book and zakir naik found like hundred mistakes.

there are many other "zakir naiks" who find out 100s of mistakes and contradictions in quran. sometimes you will wonder that whether these people have no other job!!!

[Typical Stroke]

Originally Posted by dinakar the advantage of religious texts - be it quran, bible or veda - is there interpretation is quite flexible and can change according to invidual's taste! the "religious scholars" job is pretty easy, whenever a new scientific discovery happens, just quote a verses from these texts and tell that it means exactly the same and they will always find many who mug it up blindly.

totally agree with u

[pace007]

Originally Posted by Dhirajmes it's the reason why the majority of the world's Muslims today are what they are. The same with Christianity -- an imperial and conquering cult. Today, Islamic preachers follow a few different approaches: (a) Islam is the biggest+fastest growing religion; it must be true Point (a) is attributable to historical military conquests as well as the high birth rates among Muslim women today.

lol care to tell me which muslim army went to Indonesia then? (the country with the most muslims in the world)

Islam has also been growing rapidly in the USA and UK, including many middle class white women

i agree with that Jadz said - we dont have to prove the Quran to anyone, read it with an open and unbiased mind and make your own decisions, most people just regurgitate whatever they read in the paper which is almost always rubbish and twisted out of context

[deviously~fading~away]

Originally Posted by FastBowler Look we know you're an atheist or whatever but can you shut up about this now?

why? Just disprove what he says rather than making an idiotic statement like you just did!

[deviously~fading~away]

Originally Posted by zimmz I wish all threads with kashif77 post were marked with some thing like 'Idiot Alert'...

he did ask a good question to which many PP's have responded with good answers. If you want to make just idiotic statement yourself, than we should probably mark you post with "Idiot Alert"!

[Fawad]

Originally Posted by deviously~fading~away why? Just disprove what he says rather than making an idiotic statement like you just did!

There's nothing idiotic about his statement, Dhirajmes is an atheist who trolls around PP calling Islam a 'cult'.

Any view on religion by any atheist is irrelevant.

[ozymandias]

Originally Posted by Fawad There's nothing idiotic about his statement, Dhirajmes is an atheist who trolls around PP calling Islam a 'cult'. Any view on religion by any atheist is irrelevant.

I thought atheism was a religion, because they essentially 'believe' that 'God does not exist', which cannot be considered as a fact.

I could be wrong, but thats my opinion on atheism.

[Fawad]

Originally Posted by ozymandias I thought atheism was a religion, because they essentially 'believe' that 'God does not exist', which cannot be considered as a fact. I could be wrong, but thats my opinion on atheism.

A lot of my co-workers are atheist, I have no real problems with them as long as they respect my faith and beliefs.

"Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist there is no God." - Heywood Broun

[zimmz]

Originally Posted by deviously~fading~away he did ask a good question to which many PP's have responded with good answers. If you want to make just idiotic statement yourself, than we should probably mark you post with "Idiot Alert"!

Are you his spokesperson?

And no he is not asking a question, instead it's pure idiotic sarcasm. Moreover he is known for idotic posts regarding Islam, Pakistan etc etc.

[pakistani_banda]

watch the videos by ahmad deedat on the number 19 in the Holy Quran.
there are 12 parts,
i am posting the first part
the link to the first video.

[Desire]

haha. i cant prove that all you guys are real or just imagination of my mind. how can i prove whats right whats wrong??

everything is ishq e nabi. get liberated!!

[pakistani_banda]

Originally Posted by Desire haha. i cant prove that all you guys are real or just imagination of my mind. how can i prove whats right whats wrong?? everything is ishq e nabi. get liberated!!

ishq-e-nabi should not be to such an extent that it becomes shirk.

[Desire]

Originally Posted by pakistani_banda ishq-e-nabi should not be to such an extent that it becomes shirk.

thats exactly what i used to think but there is no limit of love. The more the love more you become good muslim. how? its your journey. take it easy and listen to this



but if you think i am wrong. you can also be right. hahaha.. thats the beauty.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Kean0 The best way i have found is the scientific approach. Most of you will know the Quran has scientific teachings which scientists have only recently discovered and are still discovering. This book contains knowledge which no human could have fathomed a few years ago, nevermind back when the Quran was brought to us. If someone can not see this as proof of this book being the word of Allah then they are denying thier belief in simple physics and chemistry.

I think you are interpreting statements from the Quran in a way to justify your own belief. Fundamentalist Christians do similar things with The Bible.

[Iqbilla]

Originally Posted by Robert I think you are interpreting statements from the Quran in a way to justify your own belief. Fundamentalist Christians do similar things with The Bible.

Just KNOW that all else is false and Islam is only truth !!!!!!!!

[fawad_wellwisher]

Originally Posted by Robert I think you are interpreting statements from the Quran in a way to justify your own belief. Fundamentalist Christians do similar things with The Bible.

As well as athiests with 'The Origin of Species.' All religions including atheism are guilty of this so I would have to agree with you there.

[whyhkk]

Originally Posted by Momo Yes they are all quite inaccurate, one or two being more inaccurate than the rest. Especially to those who come across them for the first time, they can be fairly misleading and would most probably sound illogical too. Details tomorrow, inshaAllah.

I didn't find any reply from Momo on why those quotes are inaccurate. I would love to see why they are inaccurate.